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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dogs in Church
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Various:
--Galloping Granny's church sounds great!
--Joesaphat: It sounds like it's really wearying and wearing for you. I know that interpersonal matters in a church can be...difficult. People want power, or don't like each other, or know secrets about each other. My childhood church nearly split once. And some churches are very much congregation vs. clergy, particularly if the congregation disagrees with something the clergy does or believes, whether on the job or personally. Something developed between my childhood pastor and some members of the congregation. I never found out what it was, or who caused it. Maybe there were things on both sides. But the pastor was kind of abandoned, and wound up leaving. Friends who were PKs (preacher's kids) told me of other situations.
Being the person living with health problems, disabilities and special needs, phobias, non-inclusive language, cultural differences, etc. is wearying and wearing, too. Especially when your disabilities are invisible, and people disbelieve you because they think you don't look sick. (Those two links might be helpful for you, BTW.)
FWIW: Would any of the congregation be up for an informal meeting, talking and learning about each other's differences, and trying to find ways to make things more safe and comfortable for everyone? YMMV!
--Re gluten and communion: Some years back, there was a rather heated thread in Ecclesiantics about that. Attitudes about "preciousness" came into it, and I think it spread out into sensitivity to incense. I think some light did eventually come out of all the heat.
--Animals in church: Service animals should be allowed. (Though that could get complicated with animals other than dogs and cats. Some people have service monkeys. Though, in Laura Pedersen's novel "Beginner's Luck", there's a chimp that puts on a suit and goes happily to RC mass every week--and seems to get something out of it.) Service dogs are well-trained, and can sit or lie down quietly.
Lots of people have allergies to dogs, or fear them. ISTM that if the sanctuary isn't tiny, and there are only a few service animals, they might be able to sit separately enough to make it manageable. (Unless someone simply can't be in the same room as a dog.)
Theoretically, I'm not necessarily against pets in church. (I'm not a pet person; but I think animals are wonderful in general, and have enjoyed some St. Francis celebrations where people brought pets--and teddy bears!--to church for blessing.) But...with allergies, fear, noise, getting loose, cleaning up...and how many pets would you allow, anyway? I think it really isn't practical. And is it fair to the pets to have to sit quietly through a service, which can last an hour or more?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Personally I am against pets in Church. Not least because it would likely be a distraction for service dogs (thus possibly causing things to be unsafe for their owner)
Ditto in shops etc.
People rarely keep their pet dogs under good control and often use those extending leads, the bane of Guide Dog owner's lives.
My pet Lab Tatze would be useless in Church. She's at home in house and garden, fields and woods, not in crowds of people.
[ 28. August 2016, 10:43: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I think dogs in church should be no problem as long as they are seen and not heard. It's up to the parents to be respectful of their congregation and quietly remove the animals if they cause a disturbance. Marking one's pew should be right out, and parents should always bring a small tote bag containing cleaning products, small plastic bags and medical equipment in case of a bite.
Haha! I imagine this was said tongue in cheek?
But welcome to my Sunday mornings! My Guide Dog pups come with me to Church from eight weeks old and - at that age - it entails quite a bit of cleaning up! One bloke cuddled a pup (I warned him that they are crocodiles at this age, he laughed and said he was used to dogs) she nipped his ear and drew blood!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I have no problem with service dogs, adult or learners. But - as a non-dog owner - I am puzzled as to why those with dogs feel they can't just leave them at home sometimes.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
people are not very gracious about their idiosyncrasies... ...adults whose preferences or needs clash and should be able to talk to one another.
Sounds like you're saying that you do sympathize with and try to accommodate those with particular and unusual needs. Including those who feel they have a need to have their dog present (service dogs) and those who feel they have a need to have no dog present (allergies, phobias).
But you'd appreciate some little show of gratitude for the special efforts that you make ?
Rather than people acting as if they had a right to have those needs met regardless of the consequences to others ?
"Entitlement culture" can be hard to swallow...
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
people are not very gracious about their idiosyncrasies... ...adults whose preferences or needs clash and should be able to talk to one another.
Sounds like you're saying that you do sympathize with and try to accommodate those with particular and unusual needs. Including those who feel they have a need to have their dog present (service dogs) and those who feel they have a need to have no dog present (allergies, phobias).
But you'd appreciate some little show of gratitude for the special efforts that you make ?
Rather than people acting as if they had a right to have those needs met regardless of the consequences to others ?
"Entitlement culture" can be hard to swallow...
I don't even know if it's a new thing or a "culture" so much as human nature. I think when we find ourselves uncomfortable, excluded, or marginalized because of a special need/disability, when accommodations are first made we tend to be quite grateful. The problem is, over time we take the accommodations for granted . We come to count on them as part of the fragile web that helps us navigate life. So we forget to say "thanks"-- or resent having to say thanks to simply be able to function like everyone else. And if, for some reason, those accommodations are withdrawn or compromised-- even in a momentary lapse (as with the non-gluten host mentioned above)-- all sorts of feelings that look like "entitlement" arise. All the more complicated by the fact that it's hard for someone on the outside to realize, as noted above, just how urgent or important any particular accommodation might be.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Guide dogs strap line is "We will not rest until people who are blind or partially sighted can enjoy the same freedom of movement as everyone else."
I doubt that anyone would bat an eyelid about allowing a wheelchair into a public space. Guide dogs do for blind and VI people what wheelchairs do for the physically disabled.
I don't think they need to be in the least grateful for people accommodating their dogs - it should be a given, an entitlement. In fact it is, in law.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I have no problem with service dogs, adult or learners. But - as a non-dog owner - I am puzzled as to why those with dogs feel they can't just leave them at home sometimes.
P.S. Just to clarify - by the latter I meant the owners of PET dogs. It would be outrageous to ban Guide Dogs etc.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
people are not very gracious about their idiosyncrasies... ...adults whose preferences or needs clash and should be able to talk to one another.
Sounds like you're saying that you do sympathize with and try to accommodate those with particular and unusual needs. Including those who feel they have a need to have their dog present (service dogs) and those who feel they have a need to have no dog present (allergies, phobias).
But you'd appreciate some little show of gratitude for the special efforts that you make ?
Rather than people acting as if they had a right to have those needs met regardless of the consequences to others ?
"Entitlement culture" can be hard to swallow...
I don't even know if it's a new thing or a "culture" so much as human nature. I think when we find ourselves uncomfortable, excluded, or marginalized because of a special need/disability, when accommodations are first made we tend to be quite grateful. The problem is, over time we take the accommodations for granted . We come to count on them as part of the fragile web that helps us navigate life. So we forget to say "thanks"-- or resent having to say thanks to simply be able to function like everyone else. And if, for some reason, those accommodations are withdrawn or compromised-- even in a momentary lapse (as with the non-gluten host mentioned above)-- all sorts of feelings that look like "entitlement" arise. All the more complicated by the fact that it's hard for someone on the outside to realize, as noted above, just how urgent or important any particular accommodation might be.
Yes, you both put your finger on it. I should remind myself of this whenever frustrations arises, I'm just not mindful enough.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
One church in our area has a large dog which comes with his Master every Sunday to church. The only problem seems to be that people want to offer him to many cookies at fellowship time following the service.
My own church has many people visit who are on vacation so we have had several people come with their dogs. Some in carriers some not. It has not been a problem so far.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Guide dogs strap line is "We will not rest until people who are blind or partially sighted can enjoy the same freedom of movement as everyone else."
Yet you are denying that freedom to allergy sufferers.
I'm not certain there is a perfect solution to such competing rights, but the automatic preference of one over the other is, frankly, wrong.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I don't have a pet dog, but I imagine that if you do have one and have to leave it at home during the working week you probably want to enjoy its company at the weekend.
More generally, this thread highlights the challenge of providing for today's demanding society, where individuals expect their needs to be met.
It must be difficult for the clergy to take so many medical and psychological etc. issues into account, but the alternative is probably an emptier church. The message is, be careful what you wish for. Mo' worshippers = mo' problems, to coin a phrase!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't have a pet dog, but I imagine that if you do have one and have to leave it at home during the working week you probably want to enjoy its company at the weekend.
More generally, this thread highlights the challenge of providing for today's demanding society, where individuals expect their needs to be met.
It must be difficult for the clergy to take so many medical and psychological etc. issues into account, but the alternative is probably an emptier church. The message is, be careful what you wish for. Mo' worshippers = mo' problems, to coin a phrase!
There is a difference between a community and a market. The church must be about building a community, not satisfying (or creating) a market.
The outcome to worry about is a fractured community, not a smaller market. If the community is fractured by competing, partially unsatisfied entitlements, then it will eventually fall apart completely. To my mind the urgent challenge is for the church as a whole to find ways of enshrining in its life the expectation that its members will wash each other's feet, rather than demanding that the service be provided in every case by the clergy.
Looking at the list of incompatible demands Joseaphat has mentioned, the question of non-service dogs is indeed the one which screams out for dialogue between members of the community. Unless the two elements acknowledge each other and reach an accommodation, they can't be part of the same community, since one side requires its valued companion animals to be honoured, and the other requires vermin to be excluded from its place of worship.
The other demands fall on the clergy because they are specifically liturgical. Of course, if lay celebrants are used, those demands fall on those lay celebrants, but it will be a cold day in hell (I pretty confidently predict) before lay celebrants lead an anglo-catholic congregation in any celebration of the eucharist other an exceptional mass of the pre-sanctified.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
[qb] And presumably people with allergies can't guarantee they'll go through life in an entirely animal-hair free space all the time, anyway.
Yes, and this is precisely why we ought to take some thought to making church a safe(r) place for them. Someone who is fearfully allergic or asthmatic can't let their guard down anywhere; but it would be a kindness to make church a place they had less to worry about.
It seems to me that we've got a constant struggle going on between those who want to frame the discussion in terms of rights ("What do we HAVE to do?") and those who look at it more as kindness and courtesy ("What can we do?"). There's some validity to the first frame, but it's almost guaranteed to raise people's hackles on both sides. For bars, airports, supermarkets, etc. that might be appropriate. For church we can do better.
So the kindness and courtesy to the lonely and eccentric lady who is inseperable from her cat and insists on taking it with her wherever she goes is shown by....what?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
There is a difference between a community and a market. The church must be about building a community, not satisfying (or creating) a market.
The outcome to worry about is a fractured community, not a smaller market. If the community is fractured by competing, partially unsatisfied entitlements, then it will eventually fall apart completely. To my mind the urgent challenge is for the church as a whole to find ways of enshrining in its life the expectation that its members will wash each other's feet, rather than demanding that the service be provided in every case by the clergy.
Looking at the list of incompatible demands Joseaphat has mentioned, the question of non-service dogs is indeed the one which screams out for dialogue between members of the community.
I agree that a dialogue and an accommodation is required. However, someone is going to have to be the mediator in the process. Perhaps the CofE can provide assistance from elsewhere, if the minister needs it?
ISTM that the CofE in particular has to work hard to create a community out of very diverse groups of people - especially in a city like London. (And I don't suppose there's much of a 'market' mentality for Anglo-Catholics.)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So the kindness and courtesy to the lonely and eccentric lady who is inseperable from her cat and insists on taking it with her wherever she goes is shown by....what?
People being kind and supportive so she does not need a substitute?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I think dogs in church should be no problem as long as they are seen and not heard. It's up to the parents to be respectful of their congregation and quietly remove the animals if they cause a disturbance. Marking one's pew should be right out, and parents should always bring a small tote bag containing cleaning products, small plastic bags and medical equipment in case of a bite.
Haha! I imagine this was said tongue in cheek?
But welcome to my Sunday mornings! My Guide Dog pups come with me to Church from eight weeks old and - at that age - it entails quite a bit of cleaning up! One bloke cuddled a pup (I warned him that they are crocodiles at this age, he laughed and said he was used to dogs) she nipped his ear and drew blood!
Great story!
![[Razz]](tongue.gif) and yes, I was definitely taking the mickey.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
[qb] And presumably people with allergies can't guarantee they'll go through life in an entirely animal-hair free space all the time, anyway.
Yes, and this is precisely why we ought to take some thought to making church a safe(r) place for them. Someone who is fearfully allergic or asthmatic can't let their guard down anywhere; but it would be a kindness to make church a place they had less to worry about.
It seems to me that we've got a constant struggle going on between those who want to frame the discussion in terms of rights ("What do we HAVE to do?") and those who look at it more as kindness and courtesy ("What can we do?"). There's some validity to the first frame, but it's almost guaranteed to raise people's hackles on both sides. For bars, airports, supermarkets, etc. that might be appropriate. For church we can do better.
So the kindness and courtesy to the lonely and eccentric lady who is inseperable from her cat and insists on taking it with her wherever she goes is shown by....what?
As I said: Frame it in terms of "what can we do?" and not "how can we turn this into a nasty rights' conflict?"
Some options that leap to mind are:
Discover whether your congregation even HAS any cat-allergic people. If not, problem solved.
Talk to the cat-allergics and see whether this cat's presence is in fact causing them any difficulty. If their allergies are mild, they may very well say "no, not at all."
See whether the lady herself is aware of the potential problem, and ask if she has ideas to offer (she may not be as unyielding as you seem to posit).
See if the two groups can talk it out. They may choose to frequent separate services or to sit very distant from one another.
If you start from the assumption that kindness and courtesy is the default (as it ought to be, in the body of Christ), people will often surprise you. We worked out a far worse scenario which had two people (a disturbed woman and the family whose lives she had endangered) through this kind of give and take, for the sake of the two children involved. They ended by going to separate services so as to allow each child to maintain the worship situation he was used to while simultaneously feeling safe and welcome.
[ 29. August 2016, 01:50: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So the kindness and courtesy to the lonely and eccentric lady who is inseperable from her cat and insists on taking it with her wherever she goes is shown by....what?
I'm not sure this lady actually exists - the church may well welcome her cat, but I doubt the supermarket would.
I'm even less certain that the cat exists - most cats I've known wouldn't tolerate being carted around as luggage by an eccentric old lady, however lonely.
But suppose for the sake of argument I stipulate your scenario. It is likely, in a church of any size, that there will also be people who are allergic to the precious puss. How to accommodate both sets of people? Well, if the old lady keeps her puss confined - whether in a carrier, old-lady shopping trolley or whatever - and she and the cat-allergic arrange to not sit near each other, then there shouldn't be a problem.
I think it's pretty unreasonable to expect your feline to be free-range, though.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Just this Sunday a very fluffy dog was brought into church and as a result I had a massive asthma attack and was forced to leave and go home. The reaction of one of the deacons was "why don't you just take a pill"? which shocked me. People without allergies fail to realise how scary and dangerous reactions can be. If dogs must be brought to church, then maybe they can wait for their owners in a special place and not in the midst of the congregation. Then again, maybe I'll bring a pet crocodile with me next Sunday and everyone can smile at it.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
There are various answers to "take a pill", most of which aren't possible at the time because you're breathing through a straw and it's taking all the oxygen you can absorb to stand up and leave:
"Well, I've already taken my full allowance of inhaled steroids and long term reliever today plus the full dose of short term reliever so I can stand up and leave. The asthma nurse has chosen not to prescribe me the antihistamine steroid asthma medication because there are contraindications: bone thinning and other problems, and it needs taking regularly to work. I was rather hoping that my usual tactics of minimising my exposure to triggers was going to avoid having to take additional measures."
"I've taken my anti-histamine pill and will now be taking my asthma steroids to help my lungs recover for the next week. If I do not leave now I will be leaving in an ambulance on a nebuliser."
(That's my version of asthma and my daughter's brittle asthma)
People die of asthma, particularly brittle asthma and uncontrolled normal asthma. I am permanently balancing up how much medication I take to be able to live reasonably normally and can deal with the triggers I usually encounter. Adding new triggers unexpectedly can move a controlled asthmatic to an uncontrolled asthmatic on their way to hospital.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Just this Sunday a very fluffy dog was brought into church.
I'm finding this a bizarre conversation. I've been a Minister for 30 years and I've NEVER had anyone bring a dog into church, except for "blind" dogs and, once or twice, homeless "men of the road". Am I living in the wrong country or just moving in the wrong ecclesiastical circles?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I think you must lead a sheltered life.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Perhaps churches should have a 'church dog certification program'. Like therapy dog certification this would guarantee that dogs are certified not to bite, pee/poop on the floors, scratch, jump up on people, snap up dropping communion hosts as if they were dog treats. We'd also want them not run through crowds, bowling the unstable over. Howling could improve hymn singing. Barking and whining might add to the amening and hallelujahing in charismatic churches.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Perhaps churches should have a 'church dog certification program'. Like therapy dog certification this would guarantee that dogs are certified not to bite, pee/poop on the floors, scratch, jump up on people, snap up dropping communion hosts as if they were dog treats. We'd also want them not run through crowds, bowling the unstable over. Howling could improve hymn singing. Barking and whining might add to the amening and hallelujahing in charismatic churches.
All helpful, I'm sure, but wouldn't address the key problem which is allergies. I think the only way forward is was suggested above-- doing the hard work of getting the parties together to negotiate something workable, whether that's attending different services or sitting on different sides of the church. Often churches have a section for parents with small children, located near a "nursing moms room". Much as I hate it, I imagine there are those who purposely sit far apart from that section because they don't like the disturbance. We may need a section for people with service animals, which those who are allergic can (for far more understandable reasons) avoid.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I think you must lead a sheltered life.
No, it's very rare indeed in the UK. Pets are allowed in very few public places.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
--Kaplan: LOL re the cannibal!
--The LDS/Mormon Church site has a Disability Resources section. I've only skimmed parts of it. But it looks like they tried hard to do a thorough job, yet kept the writing accessible to lay people. The Disability List breaks down into various types of disabilities, with tips for helping and teaching people. From what I've seen so far, they offer some sensible tips. YMMV.
ETA: Just saw that the Chronic Illness section acknowledges invisible disabilities! And lists chronic fatigue syndrome. Yay! Go, Mormons! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 30. August 2016, 03:46: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The problem with separating the allergic from the dogs and owners by time is that someone who is allergic will not be able to sit in the same seat later as the dog hairs and dander will still be there to trigger a reaction. It may well require an agreement about times and areas.
We had a Guide who was so allergic to cats we had to organise dormitories and tents by those who had no cats at home and could guarantee no cat hair on their clothes and equipment and the rest.
The Calmac ferries have pet areas set aside for dog owners, a row of seating in semi-circles with, hopefully, space for a dog in each section. Last time I saw this, there were too many dogs for the spaces and a certain amount of negotiation was taking place.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The problem with separating the allergic from the dogs and owners by time is that someone who is allergic will not be able to sit in the same seat later as the dog hairs and dander will still be there to trigger a reaction. It may well require an agreement about times and areas.
Yes, I've been wondering if a church that allows pets would be willing to do the necessary clean-up after every service, every single time. And keep in mind that dog hair and dander won't necessarily stay where the dog was.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Just this Sunday a very fluffy dog was brought into church.
I'm finding this a bizarre conversation. I've been a Minister for 30 years and I've NEVER had anyone bring a dog into church, except for "blind" dogs and, once or twice, homeless "men of the road". Am I living in the wrong country or just moving in the wrong ecclesiastical circles?
I've been thinking the same thing. Other than service dogs, I've never heard of anyone taking a pet to church, or wanting to.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
Many years ago my sons began attending an AOG church down here. They came home and related the tale of an old woman and Boy. She asked the pastor to pray for Boy. He was very ill. The pastor assumed Boy to be a son and prayed long and loudly for him. Boy however was a very ill cat she was carrying around in a fabric shopping bag. Boy lived.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
We regularly have dogs in church - often several of them. I would never bring my dogs to church - not because I don't like dogs in church but because mine would misbehave. They wouldn't just sit or lie down placidly.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So the kindness and courtesy to the lonely and eccentric lady who is inseperable from her cat and insists on taking it with her wherever she goes is shown by....what?
I'm not sure this lady actually exists - the church may well welcome her cat, but I doubt the supermarket would.
I'm even less certain that the cat exists - most cats I've known wouldn't tolerate being carted around as luggage by an eccentric old lady, however lonely.
But suppose for the sake of argument I stipulate your scenario. It is likely, in a church of any size, that there will also be people who are allergic to the precious puss. How to accommodate both sets of people? Well, if the old lady keeps her puss confined - whether in a carrier, old-lady shopping trolley or whatever - and she and the cat-allergic arrange to not sit near each other, then there shouldn't be a problem.
I think it's pretty unreasonable to expect your feline to be free-range, though.
TBF the lady I had in mind wasn't that old and I don't know whether she was lonely or not, but she was eccentric and did bring her cat to church. it sat on her shoulder and was certainly not free-range.
Actually I wouldn't suggest that one should routinely bring pets to church. But equally I know that occasionally people do and I think that provided they are kept under control we should be able to cope with that. It's part of taking the rough and smooth of life.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I mentioned above that I was one of that cohort of the population which has been attacked by dogs. Unless I can see clearly that a dog is on a firmly-held short leash, or is an obvious service dog, I cannot assume that it is safe for me, and will therefore have to leave the service.
While I am allergic (very) to cats, I don't mind sharing space with them-- it is the prospect of danger which bothers me. If I see Fluffy sitting there without being firmly kept close, I am out of there rather than risk their teeth.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
And you cannot - or will not- try to get over your fear of dogs? There are quite a lot of them around, you know. You might find it made life easier if you could.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So the kindness and courtesy to the lonely and eccentric lady who is inseperable from her cat and insists on taking it with her wherever she goes is shown by....what?
I'm not sure this lady actually exists - the church may well welcome her cat, but I doubt the supermarket would.
I'm even less certain that the cat exists - most cats I've known wouldn't tolerate being carted around as luggage by an eccentric old lady, however lonely.
But suppose for the sake of argument I stipulate your scenario. It is likely, in a church of any size, that there will also be people who are allergic to the precious puss. How to accommodate both sets of people? Well, if the old lady keeps her puss confined - whether in a carrier, old-lady shopping trolley or whatever - and she and the cat-allergic arrange to not sit near each other, then there shouldn't be a problem.
I think it's pretty unreasonable to expect your feline to be free-range, though.
TBF the lady I had in mind wasn't that old and I don't know whether she was lonely or not, but she was eccentric and did bring her cat to church. it sat on her shoulder and was certainly not free-range.
Actually I wouldn't suggest that one should routinely bring pets to church. But equally I know that occasionally people do and I think that provided they are kept under control we should be able to cope with that. It's part of taking the rough and smooth of life.
For values of rough that include asthma attacks, uncontrolled allergic reactions and other joys, I presume.
This reminds me of discussions about church as a safe space. Safe for whom, from what? For eccentric elderly ladies whose cat is their constant companion, or for sufferers of auto-immune diseases who need not to be exposed to unexpected triggers?
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And you cannot - or will not- try to get over your fear of dogs? There are quite a lot of them around, you know. You might find it made life easier if you could.
And you cannot - or will not - control your dog? A the A quite clearly said that he was OK if you had your dog firmly secured.
My kids are scared of dogs. This is quite rational behaviour - dogs are mostly larger and stronger than them, and have sharp teeth suited to ripping meat apart. Children are made of meat.
So if I see your dog not under your direct control and in the vicinity of my children, I will be identifying things that I can use as weapons and planning how I can disable or kill your dog should it show signs of attacking.
Very much the same as the response I'd have to Lamb Chopped showing up with her pet crocodile, in fact, although I'd fancy my chances against a dog rather more than I would against a crocodile.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I wouldn't take my dog anywhere without having him under control. In his case, because although he's good tempered and harmless, he's not been very amenable to more than rather basic training, that means having him on the lead (and I mean a proper short lead not one of those stupid extending things) all the time unless we are somewhere with lots of space and clear sightlines and I am confident I can physically get him back before any trouble arises.
Dog owners who don't realise that there are people out there who don't like dogs, and dogs out there who may not like or be liked by their own dog, are a menace. But most of the dogowners I know do realise this and behave accordingly. Those who don't need to be put in their place and have it made clear to them that their behaviour is not acceptable and their dogs aren't welcome unless and until they (owners) change their ways.
But to see some of the posts on this thread you would think that 'bringing your dog to church' = 'letting packs of savage rottewilers roam the church at will'.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And you cannot - or will not- try to get over your fear of dogs? There are quite a lot of them around, you know. You might find it made life easier if you could.
As my fear of dogs is based on experience of their nature as animals trained to defend territory or people, or untrained and irrational, I deal with my fear by avoiding them. As a back-up mechanism, I carry a (legally permitted in Canada) spray, which I will use in my defence should it be needed.
I should also note, for those who feel that I am entirely antidog, that there are some dogs whose company I very much like-- in these cases, the master have introduced me to the dogs, who have their various greeting customs. But I cannot trust a dog I do not know and I have learned the hard way.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Hm.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Somebody I think once said that you can't please all the people all of the time. Even those who've disagreed with Joesaphat must identify with his exasperation about being expected to.
Is it fair to say that one has to have some sort of hierarchy as to which needs must be accommodated and which should be expected to defer to other needs that are higher? Even this will produce incompatible conflicts, but at least might reduce them.
How about the following?
1. The needs which should take priority are those that derive from a physical (i.e. medical) condition. So, churches and other places must accommodate e.g.
a. guide dogs for those that are dependent on one.
b. those who really cannot eat or be exposed to certain items of food etc.
c. those who cannot negotiate steps etc.
2. We should try to provide for needs that are desirable or optional but they will have to defer to those that are essential. If there is someone in a congregation who is seriously allergic to dogs, a person who is not dependent on a guide dog but insists on bringing their dog on the basis 'love me, love my pooch' has a spiritual problem that it may be the clergy's pastoral duty to engage with them personally about.
3. Those whose needs are being accommodated must try to fit in in a helpful way. They may not adopt either a demanding or a passive aggressive attitude. For example, those in wheel chairs shouldn't insist that ALL doors are accessible because they want to go in through that particular door, as long as one door is. We've recently had a variant of that one. And nobody is entitled to expect other people to guess what their needs are if they haven't told them. 'They should know', 'they should guess' or 'they should be taking every possible need into account just in case' are not acceptable attitudes.
4. Nobody should be expected to accommodated needs, even medical ones, of people who aren't there, just on the off chance that somebody might turn up who has them - and particularly not unusual allergies. So taking allergies to dogs, incense, gluten or whatever into account only arises if there is somebody present who actually is allergic to dogs, incense or gluten.
5. From time to time, there will be sensitivities that we simply say we are not going to accommodate. An extreme example would be somebody who insists that although they accept it's wrong, unChristian and irrational, because they were brought up in apartheid South Africa, they still find it psychologically impossible to share the common cup with a black person. So the church should provide them with a wee cuppy even though that's not the practice of the denomination.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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cornflower
Shipmate
# 13349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And you cannot - or will not- try to get over your fear of dogs? There are quite a lot of them around, you know. You might find it made life easier if you could.
As my fear of dogs is based on experience of their nature as animals trained to defend territory or people, or untrained and irrational, I deal with my fear by avoiding them. As a back-up mechanism, I carry a (legally permitted in Canada) spray, which I will use in my defence should it be needed.
I should also note, for those who feel that I am entirely antidog, that there are some dogs whose company I very much like-- in these cases, the master have introduced me to the dogs, who have their various greeting customs. But I cannot trust a dog I do not know and I have learned the hard way.
I perfectly understand your fear. I'm also wary of dogs. If I'm out walking or whatever, I try and weigh any dogs up if I see them...are they returning to the owner when called?..if they attack me, will they only be able to reach to my knee, or will they (especially in the case of a several stone large dog,) be able to knock me off my feet and rip my throat out? People do get killed by dogs, or severely injured. Might not be so bad if you're a big bloke wearing steel-capped boots and maybe be able to give them a hefty kick and wrestle them off, but a child or someone short like me who's probably only wearing sandals, I don't rate the chances.
I used to cycle home regularly late at night and en route there used to be a man who would be walking his rottweler. Fortunately he was aware that this dog really had something against pushbikes, so if he saw someone with one, he would hold the dog really tightly on its lead until the cyclist went by. If I saw him in time, I would take a longer route round, as I was pretty scared that thw dog, being so poerful, might escapoe from the owner one day, and heaven knows what would have happened.
[ 30. August 2016, 22:21: Message edited by: cornflower ]
Posts: 111 | From: uk | Registered: Jan 2008
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Just this Sunday a very fluffy dog was brought into church.
I'm finding this a bizarre conversation. I've been a Minister for 30 years and I've NEVER had anyone bring a dog into church, except for "blind" dogs and, once or twice, homeless "men of the road". Am I living in the wrong country or just moving in the wrong ecclesiastical circles?
I've been thinking the same thing. Other than service dogs, I've never heard of anyone taking a pet to church, or wanting to.
There are two in my parish alone, and mine sometimes comes along as well, when no one's around because he likes to run down the aisle and back.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And you cannot - or will not- try to get over your fear of dogs? There are quite a lot of them around, you know. You might find it made life easier if you could.
As my fear of dogs is based on experience of their nature as animals trained to defend territory or people, or untrained and irrational, I deal with my fear by avoiding them. As a back-up mechanism, I carry a (legally permitted in Canada) spray, which I will use in my defence should it be needed.
I should also note, for those who feel that I am entirely antidog, that there are some dogs whose company I very much like-- in these cases, the master have introduced me to the dogs, who have their various greeting customs. But I cannot trust a dog I do not know and I have learned the hard way.
My eldest son is the same. When he was four he witnessed his younger brother bitten in the face by a dog. His younger brother, who received the bite, was unaffected psychologically. But his older brother (30 years old) now has a lifelong fear of dogs. He's fine with dogs he knows, but will go a long route to avoid unknown dogs. Luckily, here in the UK, we no longer have stray dogs on the streets.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
If Boogie and her box o' puppies was anywhere near me in church I would be in such agony that tears would stream down my cheeks, because the desire to look at the the puppies, pick them up and snuggle them against my neck, and receive milky puppy kisses on my lips, would completely overtake my sense of decorum and self control and all my attention would be directed at keeping an iron grip on myself. There's that side of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
no triggering language about greed for the bulimic
This is the one I'm curious about. As a person who could benefit from a good strong sermon about gluttony, I think the desire of the bulimic not to be triggered is problematic. Would talking about greed mean she had to run out and be greedy. Gluttony is one of those "lesser," sins that we don't hear much about, and when we do the pastor tends to emphasize all the other meanings of gluttony besides the plain old pigging out one. It's an embarrassing subject because, unlike, say the gambling addict, or the adulterers, we guilty gluttonous parties are usually quite obvious. But to say we can't talk about this sin (or problem or whatever,) because it might trigger someone, closes the door on all sorts of subjects we might need to address. Does talking about gambling or coveting your neighbor's designer dress trigger people to go to the casino or the mall?
Maybe you could call the bulimic woman and warn her to stay home rather than eliminating all talk of greed.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
As my fear of dogs is based on experience of their nature as animals trained to defend territory or people, or untrained and irrational, I deal with my fear by avoiding them.
I sympathise with this. It's how I often feel about people. Harder to avoid, though.
More seriously, I think some dog-owners should be more aware that many people, for whatever reason, are wary or afraid of dogs, and keep their dogs under proper control. I'm a dog-owner myself, but even when I see a mutt I'd love to say 'hello' to I always ask the owner first. And I dislike seeing dogs in public places off-lead, because of past bad experiences of this.
I have a particular beef with some owners of small dogs, who for some reason think these common sense considerations don't apply to them because Foofy-fluffums is no bigger than a carpet-slipper. I'm fed up with my much larger dogs being run at, nipped and tormented by unruly little guys, just because their owners are too stupid to care.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I once walked my sheepdog on a leash past a house with the family sitting on the porch. Their loose, tiny dog rushed out, menacing me and mine, and actually drew blood from my dogs throat, while they all laughed!
My dachshund is overly fierce, but at least I admit it and keep her either in the house or inside her very own $3000 picket fence overlaid with lattice work, enclosing the back yard.
My Episcopalian pastor has a pet blessing service every year. I told her why my dog couldn't attend and she offered to perform an exorcism.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And you cannot - or will not- try to get over your fear of dogs?
As my fear of dogs is based on experience of their nature as animals trained to defend territory or people, or untrained and irrational, I deal with my fear by avoiding them. <<snip>> I should also note, for those who feel that I am entirely antidog, that there are some dogs whose company I very much like.
My feelings precisely. I was bitten as a child by a neighborhood dog, and ever since I've preferred to avoid dogs I don't know and who don't know me. When I visit people who own dogs, I find that if you ignore the dogs, they'll pretty much ignore you.
I find that pet owners in general share a trait that parents of small children suffer under: they assume (mistakenly) that other people are as interested in their pets/children as they are.
I do, however, actually like the occasional dog. When I was of high school age, there was a neighborhood dog named Teddy who was one of the most intelligent creatures I have ever encountered. He never jumped/sniffed/licked, but liked to hang around. He seemed to take a personal interest in everyone.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
... I think some dog-owners should be more aware that many people, for whatever reason, are wary or afraid of dogs, and keep their dogs under proper control. I'm a dog-owner myself, but even when I see a mutt I'd love to say 'hello' to I always ask the owner first....
Dog 101.
[ 03. September 2016, 19:52: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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