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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dogs in Church
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
The thread about worship has a tangent about dogs in Church. I thought it would be interesting to pursue here.
Of course, it is illegal in the UK to refuse access for service dogs to public places. The only exceptions are food preparation kitchens and sterile hospital areas like operating theatres.
My Guide Dog pups come to Church every Sunday. Allowing pups is at the discression of the shop/church/whatever.
All the pups, without exception, stand for the hymns! Bruce was something of a barker but folk just chuckled when he did this.
What is your opinion/experience?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
We have never questioned the idea of service dogs in church. It has not been a problem.
However, it has several times happened that brides wanted their beloved pup to be part of the wedding ceremony. We only permit that for outdoor services.
Unfortunately this summer we had an outdoor service with dog planned and it rained. The bride was inconsolable at not being able to include the pooch, who was huge and shaggy. It made us wonder about our policy.
As a lover of dogs I have often lobbied to have a church service to focus on them, but always get hooted down.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
My niece, an only child who grew up with at least two to four golden retrievers in the house, chose her beloved Phoebe, as her flower girl at her wedding. Phoebe performed flawlessly, delivering her basket of flowers to the front of the church and going to lie down beside the mother-of-the-bride exactly as rehearsed.
The photographer mentioned that he would keep this church in mind to suggest to other couples as not many were so open about having a dog be part of the ceremony.
I take my dog pretty much everywhere I go and find that I have altered many routines based on where she is welcome or not welcome. I suspect that others have done the same.
When I was doing supply preaching, I brought her with me into church before and after the service but tucked her away for a nap in my car during worship. On very cold days she had a kennel at the back of the church. She's not one to bark or cry so most had no idea she was there. It was about a 140 km drive each Sunday so it made sense to take her with me. On the other hand, another person who does supply there has run into real opposition for having a dog sleeping in the pulpit during worship.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I had problems with someone who insisted on bringing her dog to Evensong as I am allergic to dog hair/dander. This made it very difficult for me to be cantor at the service as I would tend to have an asthma attack. I think this needs to be considered before we open our churches to dogs of all types. Most of the assistance dogs tend to be short haired and less of a problem but the dog which caused me difficulties was long haired and a shedder.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Somebody brought a dog to church at our shack a little while ago: it behaved itself and it was fine. I don't take mine but I'm sure I could if I wanted to. There are just pets, not assistance dogs. Nice big space so no need for anyone to get close to him if they don't want to/ need not to. When I used to go to Hinde St Methodist in London there was a slightly eccentric lady who used to attend regularly with a cat on her shoulder. All part of the glorious variety of the Kingdom of God, if you ask me.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Scots lass
Shipmate
# 2699
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Posted
Many, many years ago the father of my dad's friend was a minister in the Highlands. (Dad's friend must be pushing 90, and this was before he was born, so probably late 19th C). He used to take his large, black dog to church and let him sleep in the pulpit whilst he preached, until one day cows were heard outside. The dog woke up and sprang out of the pulpit barking, and the congregation fled in hysterics - believing it was the devil.
Personally, I'd be distracted by dogs in church, and I don't know many who would lie down quietly during the service. I suppose it could also be a problem if someone in the congregation had a phobia or a severe allergy.
Posts: 863 | From: the diaspora | Registered: Apr 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:
Personally, I'd be distracted by dogs in church, and I don't know many who would lie down quietly during the service. I suppose it could also be a problem if someone in the congregation had a phobia or a severe allergy.
How would that person then cope with a service dog coming in? Taxi drivers have to have a doctor's letter if they claim severe allergy, and the firm have to send someone else.
Someone once demanded a guide dog owner leave the bus due to their allergy. But the owner didn't leave - easier for the allergic person to get another bus and remember their medication next time.
We have a member of our Church with a severe allergy to dogs - he remembers his medication when he comes to Church/our house and he keeps well away from the dogs (he's a family friend too)
Phobias are another story. Another lady started to scream about a guide dog on a bus asking for it to be removed. Very upsetting to the owner - but, again, she had to remove herself and get another bus.
I have my tiny pups at the back of the Church so that I can see to their needs and they aren't having to settle for too long. Once they are six months old I sit in my usual place and they come up with me for communion etc, just as their owner will if they are church goers.
It's also great practice for the pup as Church is similar to many situations - lots of people sitting quietly listening to someone at the front talking/singing/whatever is similar to many university and job situations. Only one has howled during a hymn!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
We used to have an old parishioner from Leeds with a Yellow Lab guide dog. Uma was much beloved by the rest of the parish; the only drawback was that she loved to lie in the midst of the nave on the cool concrete floor, which meant that processions had to wind around her.
I currently have a family who raises King Charles Cavalier Spaniels, and they occasionally will bring one to church with them. They're always well-behaved and have never been a problem.
I don't see the need to have a policy about dogs; if a particular animal was causing a problem, we'd need to address that, but it hasn't yet happened.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Service animals, fine.
Personal pets? I see a number of issues.
Will they end up causing trouble for legitimate service animals?
Will they cause people with phobias or allergies discomfort? (This is just a balancing of interests test. Service animals might win, but if it's between someone being able to breath properly for the rest of the day and you bringing your non-service animal in? Human wins.)
If everyone starts bringing his or her dog to church, what happens when an inevitable fight happens (and it will)? People take dog disagreements extremely personally.
I love dogs, but I'm not sure that regular pet dogs (as opposed to service dogs) really need to be invited everywhere.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
As everybody else is saying, it's a balancing act. One way to handle the balance, though, might be to declare one service (if you have multiple) "animal free" (well, except service dogs) so the folks with allergies/phobias can have one situation in which to relax. And of course if you have seat padding or carpeting, to do what you can to see that hair/dander isn't left behind. Or perhaps ask animals to stay in a particular section of the church.
I hear a hint of doubt in some posts about the allergies thing. For some of us, it isn't a matter of "take your medicine, you idiot, and then you'll be fine." Some of us risk anaphylaxis aka death. Some of us can be juiced to the gills with meds and still have a whacking great asthma attack, as I did the night I slept in a home where the cat was accustomed to lying on the guest pillow, and nobody thought to say anything. Purple face does not become me!
There's no need to make these things into a conflict between pet owners and people with medical or psych issues. Generally we can work out a reasonable solution with courtesy and an intent to assume the best of people.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
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Posted
Service dogs are fine. In my varied past when I was a church cleaner I could tell when the guide dog had been in worship by the yellow hairs on the floor for me to sweep up! I have also had the very occasional dog at a funeral. And I always think of an aristocratic parishioner in a former parish who took exception to the Council's notice in the cemetery surrounding the church which forbade dogs, "When I die," this lady would proclaim, "Not only the digs, but the horses are coming to the funeral!" She is still alive.
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
My autistic friend is an occasional churchgoer and takes his service dog with him. Since he can't speak, the dog acts as an icebreaker for the family, and makes the people around them more comfortable. The dog is always as welcome as my friend, and has the enviable right to sleep through the less inspiring sermons without attracting attention.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:
Personally, I'd be distracted by dogs in church, and I don't know many who would lie down quietly during the service.
Well, it all comes down to behaviour, doesn't it? If your dog will behave, and not distract you or other worshippers, fine. If not, don't bring him or her in. Might need a rethink if everybody started doing it, but ti's a question of balance.
And presumably people with allergies can't guarantee they'll go through life in an entirely animal-hair free space all the time, anyway.
[ 25. August 2016, 20:44: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
Rant: every Sunday: four gluten-free wafers for the coeliacs, hypo-allergenic incense for the snowflake family, two un-confirmed furry members who have to be minded when their owners make their way to the altar rail, apologies for the (yea, Asian) family who don't like dogs, loop-system (fair enough, I guess), profuse apologies for the use of male pronouns, no triggering language about greed for the bulimic (yes, they do complain) and then further apologies for those who complain about PC-ness overtaking everything... anyone spare a thought for the incumbent?
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And presumably people with allergies can't guarantee they'll go through life in an entirely animal-hair free space all the time, anyway.
I have a bad cat allergy, but I deal with it by not going to houses of people who own cats, or taking a double dose of antihistamine before going over there. I don't have to deal with it in most places, though, because in most public spaces, your cat isn't welcome.
If you had a legitimate service cat, I could be cool about you taking it out into public spaces.
But why do you need to bring it with you on Sunday morning? It was fine at home for a long time now.
Service animals aside, I think there are good reasons why public spaces are generally assumed to be pet free unless otherwise specified.
(This is Purgatory after all, we can disagree. If it was a Heaven thread about lovely animals in church, I wouldn't have said anything.)
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
As a person who has been attacked by dogs, I am very nervous of them; I avoid them whenever I can.
Service dogs are trained well, and are dedicated to their support of humans, but I have discovered that not all domestic pets are well-trained. If their master is with them and has some control over them, this helps, of course. If I found out that domestic pets were more than a very marginal presence at services, I would find myself in a predicament.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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cornflower
Shipmate
# 13349
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Posted
Of course, if Jesus were actually physically present at church, it would solve these problems. He could quell any upstart animals, cure any asthmatics or allergic people, give clever answers to anyone's complaints, use the dogs/cats for parables etc.
On an aside, you know those long stick/pole things that the verger or whoever carry up the aisle when the clergy, choir etc all process up to the altar at the beginning of a service?...apparently they were originally used to chase out (stray, I assume) dogs that would wander into churches. Don't know if true or not.
Posts: 111 | From: uk | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
There are certainly historical accounts of dogs wandering into church services. A famous one is in Tom Sawyer.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I have a bad cat allergy, but I deal with it by not going to houses of people who own cats, or taking a double dose of antihistamine before going over there. I don't have to deal with it in most places, though, because in most public spaces, your cat isn't welcome.
Yeah, me too.
Outdoors is fine - I often encounter cats outdoors, and sometimes stroke them (I like cats, but my immune system doesn't) - but make sure to wash my hands before they go anywhere near my face, but am never unpredictably presented with an indoor catty space.
If your cat is on public transport, it is confined in a cat carrier, and I won't sit near you.
I'm also allergic to dogs, although to a much lesser extent, so normal encounters with dogs are OK (and as has been said upthread, service dogs are well-trained and mind their own business.)
If you own dogs, I can factor that into my decision to visit your home or not. I have no interest in your drooling crotch-sniffer coming anywhere near me in public.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Only one has howled during a hymn!
Was it a protest against the tune, the theology, or the modernising of the words?
When I was a child, my Kelpie used to sometimes wander up to the church, sniff around under the pews until he found us, curl up, and sleep through the sermon, in contumacious defiance of Revelation 22:15 ("OUTSIDE are the dogs").
He is probably now in canine hell with Hitler's dog.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
He is probably now in canine hell with Hitler's dog.
Nope. All dogs go to Heaven.
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Rant: every Sunday: four gluten-free wafers for the coeliacs, hypo-allergenic incense for the snowflake family, two un-confirmed furry members who have to be minded when their owners make their way to the altar rail, apologies for the (yea, Asian) family who don't like dogs, loop-system (fair enough, I guess), profuse apologies for the use of male pronouns, no triggering language about greed for the bulimic (yes, they do complain) and then further apologies for those who complain about PC-ness overtaking everything... anyone spare a thought for the incumbent?
ER, what makes you use the word "Asian" in this context?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joesaphat:
[qb] Rant: every Sunday: four gluten-free wafers for the coeliacs, hypo-allergenic incense for the snowflake family, two un-confirmed furry members who have to be minded when their owners make their way to the altar rail, apologies for the (yea, Asian) family who don't like dogs, loop-system (fair enough, I guess), profuse apologies for the use of male pronouns, no triggering language about greed for the bulimic (yes, they do complain) and then further apologies for those who complain about PC-ness overtaking everything... anyone spare a thought for the incumbent?
Why do you think it important to qualify the family who hate dogs as "Asian"? [If you're worried about being PC, this usage proves you're not PC at all. Far from it].
Male pronouns? Well, Jesus is male and I think it's pretty good for a church to be accurate.
I think, on reading your list, I'd spare a thought for the congregation. I think you've got some pretty serious work to do.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Joesaphat, as someone who loves incense but is severely allergic to some of them, the family really aren't snowflakes. You may think their breathing is optional, but I promise you, they don't.
I am aware that some people make a huge fuss about incense and aren't allergic, as there are people who fuss about wheat who aren't coeliac, but that just makes it much harder for those people who really do suffer severe consequences from coming into contact with things their immune systems cannot deal with.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Rant: every Sunday: four gluten-free wafers for the coeliacs, hypo-allergenic incense for the snowflake family, two un-confirmed furry members who have to be minded when their owners make their way to the altar rail, apologies for the (yea, Asian) family who don't like dogs, loop-system (fair enough, I guess), profuse apologies for the use of male pronouns, no triggering language about greed for the bulimic (yes, they do complain) and then further apologies for those who complain about PC-ness overtaking everything... anyone spare a thought for the incumbent?
I think your approach is excellent. We often have issues that make it difficult to live and work together, but if we are prepared to go to these lengths to ensure that everyone is included I think that shows a willingness to see the Kingdom of God built on earth. All I can say is - keep up the good work. I would not have your patience.
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Rant: every Sunday: four gluten-free wafers for the coeliacs, hypo-allergenic incense for the snowflake family, two un-confirmed furry members who have to be minded when their owners make their way to the altar rail, apologies for the (yea, Asian) family who don't like dogs, loop-system (fair enough, I guess), profuse apologies for the use of male pronouns, no triggering language about greed for the bulimic (yes, they do complain) and then further apologies for those who complain about PC-ness overtaking everything... anyone spare a thought for the incumbent?
Rant away ...
But where is your empathy?
Can you not imagine what it must be like living with any of these conditions?
The incumbent is at work - paid decent money - to provide a service. Inclusive? I would hope so! My work place is inclusive, we are also paid decent money to provide a service.
The thing which people are entitled to is 'reasonable adjustment' of provision. This includes workers and receivers of services on public places.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Rant: every Sunday: four gluten-free wafers for the coeliacs, hypo-allergenic incense for the snowflake family, two un-confirmed furry members who have to be minded when their owners make their way to the altar rail, apologies for the (yea, Asian) family who don't like dogs, loop-system (fair enough, I guess), profuse apologies for the use of male pronouns, no triggering language about greed for the bulimic (yes, they do complain) and then further apologies for those who complain about PC-ness overtaking everything... anyone spare a thought for the incumbent?
At risk of creating a dogpile, please try living with these conditions, particularly in combination, before complaining. For example, both digestive intolerances and allergies are auto-immune diseases, so (as in my case) need for gluten-free wafers and allergy to incense go together. No-one asks for parts of their anatomy not to function, especially several simultaneously, so your gracious forbearance and provision for afflicted members of your congregation is appreciated.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
We have two canine regulars at our place: one is a guide dog, the other is the constant companion of a child on the autistic spectrum.
I have to say that given a choice between these well-behaved creatures and many of our occasional visitors for services like weddings and baptisms, I'll take the dogs any day.
We also have a cat, but only during the summer months when doors are left open. It comes in around the time of the Peace, goes forward to sit near the communion rails at the appropriate time and then follows the celebrant down the aisle at the end.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Dogs are welcome at our church. We have three regulars. The pastor's dog which is a beagle. She tends to get over excited and will be taken out if she starts barking. Another woman has a corgi that comes. He is usually pretty good, but will get bored as the service progresses.. Once in a while I will take care of it because the owner is in choir. Then there is my dog, which is a laid back labrador. Nothing bothers him. His calm presence will help settle the corgi if they are in church together.
Another newer couple has brought their toy poddle a couple of times. It apparently has some separation anxiety issues. But it has not caused problems during worship.
[ 26. August 2016, 14:54: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Rant: every Sunday: four gluten-free wafers for the coeliacs, hypo-allergenic incense for the snowflake family, two un-confirmed furry members who have to be minded when their owners make their way to the altar rail, family who don't like dogs, loop-system (fair enough, I guess),...
When I was a kid anyone with disabilities (too old to climb stairs safely) was expected to cease attending church. Much easier to have a church for the fully able bodied only.
In a broader sense - at what point is someone with special needs unrealistic to expect a church to change it's ways or spend money on equipment or remodeling or change the program to meet a need? Most local churches do not have a place for wheelchair riders except blocking the aisle in violation of fire safety.
Wafers - I thought someone could skip that and just take the wine until I went to a church that does only intinction - no wafer no communion. (And BTW gluten is not the only protein in modern wheat that can cause nasty physical distress, you can have wheat reaction without having celiac).
Hearing loops cost a church money to put in, but hearing aids are really expensive and hard to use effectively in a crowd.
Incense - there are lots of varieties on the market, can't see that it's a big deal to choose one no local person is allergic to.
But also - some kinds of music or lights can trigger some people to migraines, or disrupt people with autism, but to others that kind of music and lights enhances worship.
I wish churches could provide transportation to include those who no longer drive but that costs money and labor most churches don't have.
Church simply cannot be accessible to absolutely everyone, at minimum the contagious cannot come to the group! How are we training people to do church on their own instead of dropping completely when getting to a church or being in a church is too hard?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Rant: every Sunday: four gluten-free wafers for the coeliacs, hypo-allergenic incense for the snowflake family, two un-confirmed furry members who have to be minded when their owners make their way to the altar rail, apologies for the (yea, Asian) family who don't like dogs, loop-system (fair enough, I guess), profuse apologies for the use of male pronouns, no triggering language about greed for the bulimic (yes, they do complain) and then further apologies for those who complain about PC-ness overtaking everything... anyone spare a thought for the incumbent?
At risk of creating a dogpile, please try living with these conditions, particularly in combination, before complaining. For example, both digestive intolerances and allergies are auto-immune diseases, so (as in my case) need for gluten-free wafers and allergy to incense go together. No-one asks for parts of their anatomy not to function, especially several simultaneously, so your gracious forbearance and provision for afflicted members of your congregation is appreciated.
I do it all, joyfully most of the time, I just wish people were a little less bolshy about it.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Joesaphat, as someone who loves incense but is severely allergic to some of them, the family really aren't snowflakes. You may think their breathing is optional, but I promise you, they don't.
I am aware that some people make a huge fuss about incense and aren't allergic, as there are people who fuss about wheat who aren't coeliac, but that just makes it much harder for those people who really do suffer severe consequences from coming into contact with things their immune systems cannot deal with.
I don't, as I said, I provide all these things, I'm just annoyed because people feel so b...y entitled and aren't very gracious or thankful about it. I've got a dog whom I often take to church myself and I don't do too well on huge quantities of very sweet wine. I think I understand these predicaments, but a parish church's not a restaurant and I'm not a local authority ombudsman.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
I do it all, joyfully most of the time, I just wish people were a little less bolshy about it.
I can't speak for your congregation, but believe me, my feeling of gratitude when I discovered that the spiritual heart of my week did not have to leave me feeling horribly unwell was amazing. I still have it every time I receive a gluten-free host at communion.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joesaphat:
[qb] Rant: every Sunday: four gluten-free wafers for the coeliacs, hypo-allergenic incense for the snowflake family, two un-confirmed furry members who have to be minded when their owners make their way to the altar rail, apologies for the (yea, Asian) family who don't like dogs, loop-system (fair enough, I guess), profuse apologies for the use of male pronouns, no triggering language about greed for the bulimic (yes, they do complain) and then further apologies for those who complain about PC-ness overtaking everything... anyone spare a thought for the incumbent?
Why do you think it important to qualify the family who hate dogs as "Asian"? [If you're worried about being PC, this usage proves you're not PC at all. Far from it].
Male pronouns? Well, Jesus is male and I think it's pretty good for a church to be accurate.
I think, on reading your list, I'd spare a thought for the congregation. I think you've got some pretty serious work to do.
Like what? I thought it pretty obvious that these are all things I do every week to meet people's needs, and yes, an awful lot of first generation Asian people hate dogs. It's not racism, it's a cultural fact.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
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Originally posted by Joesaphat:
I do it all, joyfully most of the time, I just wish people were a little less bolshy about it.
I can't speak for your congregation, but believe me, my feeling of gratitude when I discovered that the spiritual heart of my week did not have to leave me feeling horribly unwell was amazing. I still have it every time I receive a gluten-free host at communion.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Rant: every Sunday: four gluten-free wafers for the coeliacs, hypo-allergenic incense for the snowflake family, two un-confirmed furry members who have to be minded when their owners make their way to the altar rail, apologies for the (yea, Asian) family who don't like dogs, loop-system (fair enough, I guess), profuse apologies for the use of male pronouns, no triggering language about greed for the bulimic (yes, they do complain) and then further apologies for those who complain about PC-ness overtaking everything... anyone spare a thought for the incumbent?
I think your approach is excellent. We often have issues that make it difficult to live and work together, but if we are prepared to go to these lengths to ensure that everyone is included I think that shows a willingness to see the Kingdom of God built on earth. All I can say is - keep up the good work. I would not have your patience.
Thank you, most other answers prove my point to some extent: people are not hugely understanding. You cannot meet the needs of one group without miffing another.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
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Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And presumably people with allergies can't guarantee they'll go through life in an entirely animal-hair free space all the time, anyway.
I have a bad cat allergy, but I deal with it by not going to houses of people who own cats, or taking a double dose of antihistamine before going over there.
Maybe depends on building and way it's used. Home: generally comparatively small, lots of soft furnishings, cat with free rein to wander everywhere. Church (if like our place): big, airy, very few soft furnishings, animals occasional visitors and kept under control by owners, not allowed to wander freely.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
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Originally posted by Albertus:
[qb] And presumably people with allergies can't guarantee they'll go through life in an entirely animal-hair free space all the time, anyway.
Yes, and this is precisely why we ought to take some thought to making church a safe(r) place for them. Someone who is fearfully allergic or asthmatic can't let their guard down anywhere; but it would be a kindness to make church a place they had less to worry about.
It seems to me that we've got a constant struggle going on between those who want to frame the discussion in terms of rights ("What do we HAVE to do?") and those who look at it more as kindness and courtesy ("What can we do?"). There's some validity to the first frame, but it's almost guaranteed to raise people's hackles on both sides. For bars, airports, supermarkets, etc. that might be appropriate. For church we can do better.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
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Originally posted by Joesaphat:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Joesaphat, as someone who loves incense but is severely allergic to some of them, the family really aren't snowflakes. You may think their breathing is optional, but I promise you, they don't.
I am aware that some people make a huge fuss about incense and aren't allergic, as there are people who fuss about wheat who aren't coeliac, but that just makes it much harder for those people who really do suffer severe consequences from coming into contact with things their immune systems cannot deal with.
I don't, as I said, I provide all these things, I'm just annoyed because people feel so b...y entitled and aren't very gracious or thankful about it. I've got a dog whom I often take to church myself and I don't do too well on huge quantities of very sweet wine. I think I understand these predicaments, but a parish church's not a restaurant and I'm not a local authority ombudsman.
You're a Priest and with that comes certain obligations in relation to justice and equity, particularly where the vulnerable and marginalised are concerned.
I find your comments about Asians and references to "snowflake" all the more obnoxious for that very reason. Hiding behind "I accommodate this every week so I'm ok" is a pretty thin excuse in my book.
There are people in my home church whose behaviour and needs are way beyond the boundaries of cultural norms. They are here because they find a welcome and an affirmation, alongside an appreciation that we will move heaven and earth to help them within the context of the broader community.
They don't feel entitled because over many years they have been denied or discriminated against: the little I can do is to make them feel valued and welcome by finding ways to affirm them. I really don't see your approach as doing that - but perhaps I'm misreading you.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
[qb] Joesaphat, as someone who loves incense but is severely allergic to some of them, the family really aren't snowflakes. You may think their breathing is optional, but I promise you, they don't.
I am aware that some people make a huge fuss about incense and aren't allergic, as there are people who fuss about wheat who aren't coeliac, but that just makes it much harder for those people who really do suffer severe consequences from coming into contact with things their immune systems cannot deal with.
I find your comments about Asians and references to "snowflake" all the more obnoxious for that very reason. Hiding behind "I accommodate this every week so I'm ok" is a pretty thin excuse in my book.
There are people in my home church whose behaviour and needs are way beyond the boundaries of cultural norms. They are here because they find a welcome and an affirmation, alongside an appreciation that we will move heaven and earth to help them within the context of the broader community.
They don't feel entitled because over many years they have been denied or discriminated against: the little I can do is to make them feel valued and welcome by finding ways to affirm them.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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cornflower
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# 13349
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Posted
[QUOTE[/qb][/QUOTE]I don't, as I said, I provide all these things, I'm just annoyed because people feel so b...y entitled and aren't very gracious or thankful about it. I've got a dog whom I often take to church myself and I don't do too well on huge quantities of very sweet wine. I think I understand these predicaments, but a parish church's not a restaurant and I'm not a local authority ombudsman. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Ah yes, one does get bolshy congregants...one wouldn't believe what some people complain about sometimes...thank goodness I'm not a vicar or any kind of church leader, it must be absolutely ghastly at times...still, perhaps it's good for the soul!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 111 | From: uk | Registered: Jan 2008
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
[qb] Joesaphat, as someone who loves incense but is severely allergic to some of them, the family really aren't snowflakes. You may think their breathing is optional, but I promise you, they don't.
I am aware that some people make a huge fuss about incense and aren't allergic, as there are people who fuss about wheat who aren't coeliac, but that just makes it much harder for those people who really do suffer severe consequences from coming into contact with things their immune systems cannot deal with.
I find your comments about Asians and references to "snowflake" all the more obnoxious for that very reason. Hiding behind "I accommodate this every week so I'm ok" is a pretty thin excuse in my book.
There are people in my home church whose behaviour and needs are way beyond the boundaries of cultural norms. They are here because they find a welcome and an affirmation, alongside an appreciation that we will move heaven and earth to help them within the context of the broader community.
They don't feel entitled because over many years they have been denied or discriminated against: the little I can do is to make them feel valued and welcome by finding ways to affirm them.
OK, I’ll bite:
Coeliacs and people who don’t like dogs are not marginalized or oppressed. I grew up among Asians, I never said that “I was OK because I do this every week” but to use a trope: yea, most of my mates are Asian. I did my MA in Oriental Studies, I grew up Buddhist and I minister in New Malden, also named Little Seoul, I actually speak Arabic, Hebrew and I’m learning Korean, there are 16,000 of them in or around my parish: they tend to be fine about it (although some of them eat dog, back home) but lots and lots and lots of Asian people have an irrational fear of dogs. I cannot both honour that and the wish of those who want to bring their dogs to church. It’s not racism. ‘Asian’ is not a slur, and you are the one who sounds like a racist. We are an Anglo-Catholic parish: whenever incense is used at High Mass there is always Low Mass at eight or Sung Mass the day before, always without incense. I have no means of knowing who will turn up when or why. No one gives me notice but one or two families hold the entire parish ransom because of their condition. I always consecrate four gluten-free wafers, which is fair enough. I can’t have the wine, at least not in any significant quantity: our Lord is present in both species entire: divinity and all. They could always take communion from the chalice if not enough were consecrated (gluten-free wafers cannot easily be reserved, they turn to cardboard). It would not bother me in the slightest but some even insist that their host be not in contact with other wheaten ones, which several GPs in the congregation tell me is utter bullshit. Nonetheless, I do it. I have to promise solemnly and very publically that I will only use the liturgies authorized by canon: I cannot inclusivize everything, if I do, the traditionalists then complain and remind me of my canonical obligations (ever heard of the Prayer Book Society?), and I really, really fail to understand how Common Worship can be ‘triggering.’ The Bible’s nasty in places, there is nothing I can do about it.
I am glad you move heaven and earth to accommodate ‘behaviour and needs that are way beyond cultural norms,’ I cannot do more. I don’t mean to paint with a wide brush, but these people do not ‘feel entitled because over many years they have been denied or discriminated against,’ they’re perfectly Middle-class, suburban families. Most are nice but some are as brown-shirty as you sound about it.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Joesaphat
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# 18493
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Posted
And there is a huge difference between a home church and a CofE parish of several hundreds in what is arguably one of the most diverse areas of London.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
I am wondering about the theology of keeping one's host out of contact of everyone else's. Sharing in one bread? I get the gluten free need. But no touching?
[ 27. August 2016, 08:00: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Joesaphat, you don't need to 'move heaven and earth'. You simply need to make reasonable adjustments, after that it's up to people to keep themselves safe.
My to ExclamationMark was because he genuinely seems to want people to feel valued, affirmed and welcome. This attitude goes a long way, even if perfect accommodation can't happen for one reason or another.
Your attitude seems rather 'humph, this is all a lot of hard work for me'. You are not a volunteer, you are decently paid to perform these duties, I presume?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I am wondering about the theology of keeping one's host out of contact of everyone else's. Sharing in one bread? I get the gluten free need. But no touching?
For coeliacs, no touching is essential. That sounds extreme, but it's true.
The practical, to my mind, emphasises the theological. God feeds all of his children. He also knows his children individually better than they know themselves, and feeds them in ways that provide for the needs of their individuality. The common symbol of that is the eucharist, but where necessary (and I stress where necessary - this is my reason for not favouring individual provision as a default), the realising of that symbol can be as individual as God's love.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Forgive the double posting, but this gives you some idea of the variants and associated difficulties.
To the sensitive digestive system, gluten is gluten. Consecration makes not a jot of difference. This can, of course, have its own theological implications, but it is true.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Galloping Granny
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# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
When I was a kid anyone with disabilities (too old to climb stairs safely) was expected to cease attending church. Much easier to have a church for the fully able bodied only.
In a broader sense - at what point is someone with special needs unrealistic to expect a church to change it's ways or spend money on equipment or remodeling or change the program to meet a need? Most local churches do not have a place for wheelchair riders except blocking the aisle in violation of fire safety.
Wafers - I thought someone could skip that and just take the wine until I went to a church that does only intinction - no wafer no communion. (And BTW gluten is not the only protein in modern wheat that can cause nasty physical distress, you can have wheat reaction without having celiac).
Hearing loops cost a church money to put in, but hearing aids are really expensive and hard to use effectively in a crowd.
Incense - there are lots of varieties on the market, can't see that it's a big deal to choose one no local person is allergic to.
But also - some kinds of music or lights can trigger some people to migraines, or disrupt people with autism, but to others that kind of music and lights enhances worship.
I wish churches could provide transportation to include those who no longer drive but that costs money and labor most churches don't have.
Church simply cannot be accessible to absolutely everyone, at minimum the contagious cannot come to the group! How are we training people to do church on their own instead of dropping completely when getting to a church or being in a church is too hard? [/QB]
Is it all so complicated?
When we found that H was an extreme coeliac, it was just 'Okay, and there may be others, so we'll always put a wee dish with rice wafers'.
We put in a ramp when the regulations required it – I know there are ancient churches where this just can't be done but if some contriving were needed there would be a rush of people to help.
Someone can no longer drive? Well, there'll be more than one offer to pick her up.
Someone really can no longer come to church? Then I hope they'll be visited.
A church is a community of people, looking after one another, isn't it?
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I reacted at the implication that I am a snowflake for being allergic to some forms of incense. I would suggest that it was the use of such pejorative language that triggered the reaction on this thread. I construe from your phrasing that you are reluctantly meeting these needs whilst being dismissive of the people who identify as having difficulties.
The problem for coeliacs is that they really cannot tolerate any gluten without becoming ill and severely damaging their intestines. A common cup with others intincting is enough for them to not be able to partake in communion in this form.
A way I have seen of dealing with this is a separate smaller cup for the coeliacs with a separate patten and a request to receive at one end of the altar rail, or asking those who are coeliac to come up first so they can receive in both kinds before anyone else and don't risk contamination.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Forgive me, Joesaphat, but those GPs sound like those whose "advice" I had to wade past to stop wasting my life feeling like crap the whole time. Epidemiology is not medicine, and this is something they seem not to realise: outlying cases happen, and they can arise anywhere, even in their practice - see super-sensitive and refractory coeliac disease, and some of the less explicable gluten-sensitive enteropathies. Epidemiologically they are not significant, because there are not huge numbers of them; medically they are, because they affect the lives of sufferers significantly.
Are coeliacs oppressed? It can take three weeks for them to get over exposure to gluten, so if their weekly communion sets them off, then they are never well. Is that oppression?
I'm sorry if this sounds stupid or extreme. In fact it may well do. But having seen what chronic untreated coeliac disease does - and that's what is created if attacks are triggered every single week - does, that's pretty extreme too.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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