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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dogs in Church
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
P.S. as a partially recovering anglo-catholic myself, I have seen the huge range of stuff that gets projected onto the clergy. I'm not sure, and I don't expect an answer, but it wouldn't surprise me if an element of Joesephat's reactions on this thread were an expression of weariness with the sheer range and oddity of some of those projections. Asking clergy to accommodate everything that everyone brings with them to church is no small thing, even if it does feel essential to those whose burdens are in play.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I am wondering about the theology of keeping one's host out of contact of everyone else's. Sharing in one bread?
Well, to be honest, it seems to me that the theology of sharing in one bread is already compromised by the use of individual hosts, rather than pieces of bread broken or cut from one loaf. (Ditto wee cuppies.)
FWIW, I am aware of some Presbyterian congregations that avoid the no-touching and "how do I get the gluten-free bread" issues by using nothing but gluten-free bread. I realize this isn't an option for those in traditions that have stricter rules regarding bread ingredients than we have.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Forgive me, Joesaphat, but those GPs sound like those whose "advice" I had to wade past to stop wasting my life feeling like crap the whole time. Epidemiology is not medicine, and this is something they seem not to realise: outlying cases happen, and they can arise anywhere, even in their practice - see super-sensitive and refractory coeliac disease, and some of the less explicable gluten-sensitive enteropathies. Epidemiologically they are not significant, because there are not huge numbers of them; medically they are, because they affect the lives of sufferers significantly.
Are coeliacs oppressed? It can take three weeks for them to get over exposure to gluten, so if their weekly communion sets them off, then they are never well. Is that oppression?
I'm sorry if this sounds stupid or extreme. In fact it may well do. But having seen what chronic untreated coeliac disease does - and that's what is created if attacks are triggered every single week - does, that's pretty extreme too.
You sound like a pretty extreme case, and if you'd come and say that before any celebration, of course I'd consecrate something separately.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
And OK, please accept my apologies for using the word snowflake. As for the harrumphing though, I'm sorry but it's true: people are not very gracious about their idiosyncrasies, liturgical, physical or aesthetic... and it can make clergy life pretty miserable. I'm not supposed to be a cop or a constant mediator between adults whose preferences or needs clash and should be able to talk to one another.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
P.S. as a partially recovering anglo-catholic myself, I have seen the huge range of stuff that gets projected onto the clergy. I'm not sure, and I don't expect an answer, but it wouldn't surprise me if an element of Joesephat's reactions on this thread were an expression of weariness with the sheer range and oddity of some of those projections. Asking clergy to accommodate everything that everyone brings with them to church is no small thing, even if it does feel essential to those whose burdens are in play.
Talking about the sheer range of oddities, in another parish (discretion must be maintained and I've already ranted too openly) I was asked not to say the word 'come' as some people could not cope with the sexual connotation... now I defy anyone to preside for an hour and a half and do that.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
And OK, please accept my apologies for using the word snowflake.
About time. Snowflake has other connotations besides someone being a bit precious.
Why, incidentally do you see that I'm coming across as racist? In attempting to deflect the (in my view) valid criticism that's come your way, you resort to comments that are along the lines of "my best friends are black/gay/female"
I agree that ministry isn't a breeze and it has its frustrations. People are people and none of us is perfect - yet.
You and I aren't where e are and serving in the way we do, for our own benefit or to prove any kind of point other than that of the gospel. FWIW I can't think of anyone in my home church who fits the "I think I'm entitled middle class" caricature you present.
I happen to be part of an inner city faith community in one of the most deprived wards of the area, with a very wide cultural, ethnic and social mix: our church make up reflects exactly the local community where 35% of the people don't speak English as a 1st language. We offer free language classes and our services will soon be translated into 3 other languages on the fly. We don't have any GP's but we have a few drug deals going on in the Car park.
It isn't easy trying to work through what is sometimes messy, but it can work.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
I'm not supposed to be a constant mediator between adults whose preferences or needs clash and should be able to talk to one another.
Make every effort to keep the bond of peace. Surely it's exactly what a Priest is supposed to be doing?
Perhaps the people you work with have a little more to be precious about than those I happen to serve.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Thank you for explaining about the reality of the danger of contact with gluten for coeliacs. I had not realised how small the amount capable of triggering serious consequences could be.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Actually, it varies. I once inadvertently communicated one of my coeliacs with the wrong host and, upon apologising, was told, very graciously, that once in a while was manageable but she would prefer the correct host in future. I did say that it wasn't profane to hiss instructions to me if I looked about to give her the wrong host in future!
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I think dogs in church should be no problem as long as they are seen and not heard. It's up to the parents to be respectful of their congregation and quietly remove the animals if they cause a disturbance. Marking one's pew should be right out, and parents should always bring a small tote bag containing cleaning products, small plastic bags and medical equipment in case of a bite.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
I'm not supposed to be a constant mediator between adults whose preferences or needs clash and should be able to talk to one another.
Make every effort to keep the bond of peace. Surely it's exactly what a Priest is supposed to be doing?
Perhaps the people you work with have a little more to be precious about than those I happen to serve.
Pau's advice is addressed to every Christian: this is what every worshipper should be doing, and I do do it, constantly, hence the frustration.. But thanks for the advice.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
Fortunately our church is happy to use gluten-free bread for Communion, but some of the other problems for coeliacs mentioned here are familiar.
I'm always getting well-meaning hosts assuring me that there is only a little bit of wheat in the food they are offering me, and just the other day I saw some cakes in a shop labelled "low gluten".
Once when we asked about whether some food in a cafe contained gluten. the proprietor indignantly produced a container of his flour and invited us to examine it - we suspect that he thought gluten was some sort of insect infestation.
Then there are the people who ask me whether I am gluten-free, a question which, I tell them, is of interest only to a cannibal.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Various:
--Galloping Granny's church sounds great!
--Joesaphat: It sounds like it's really wearying and wearing for you. I know that interpersonal matters in a church can be...difficult. People want power, or don't like each other, or know secrets about each other. My childhood church nearly split once. And some churches are very much congregation vs. clergy, particularly if the congregation disagrees with something the clergy does or believes, whether on the job or personally. Something developed between my childhood pastor and some members of the congregation. I never found out what it was, or who caused it. Maybe there were things on both sides. But the pastor was kind of abandoned, and wound up leaving. Friends who were PKs (preacher's kids) told me of other situations.
Being the person living with health problems, disabilities and special needs, phobias, non-inclusive language, cultural differences, etc. is wearying and wearing, too. Especially when your disabilities are invisible, and people disbelieve you because they think you don't look sick. (Those two links might be helpful for you, BTW.)
FWIW: Would any of the congregation be up for an informal meeting, talking and learning about each other's differences, and trying to find ways to make things more safe and comfortable for everyone? YMMV!
--Re gluten and communion: Some years back, there was a rather heated thread in Ecclesiantics about that. Attitudes about "preciousness" came into it, and I think it spread out into sensitivity to incense. I think some light did eventually come out of all the heat.
--Animals in church: Service animals should be allowed. (Though that could get complicated with animals other than dogs and cats. Some people have service monkeys. Though, in Laura Pedersen's novel "Beginner's Luck", there's a chimp that puts on a suit and goes happily to RC mass every week--and seems to get something out of it.) Service dogs are well-trained, and can sit or lie down quietly.
Lots of people have allergies to dogs, or fear them. ISTM that if the sanctuary isn't tiny, and there are only a few service animals, they might be able to sit separately enough to make it manageable. (Unless someone simply can't be in the same room as a dog.)
Theoretically, I'm not necessarily against pets in church. (I'm not a pet person; but I think animals are wonderful in general, and have enjoyed some St. Francis celebrations where people brought pets--and teddy bears!--to church for blessing.) But...with allergies, fear, noise, getting loose, cleaning up...and how many pets would you allow, anyway? I think it really isn't practical. And is it fair to the pets to have to sit quietly through a service, which can last an hour or more?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Personally I am against pets in Church. Not least because it would likely be a distraction for service dogs (thus possibly causing things to be unsafe for their owner)
Ditto in shops etc.
People rarely keep their pet dogs under good control and often use those extending leads, the bane of Guide Dog owner's lives.
My pet Lab Tatze would be useless in Church. She's at home in house and garden, fields and woods, not in crowds of people.
[ 28. August 2016, 10:43: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I think dogs in church should be no problem as long as they are seen and not heard. It's up to the parents to be respectful of their congregation and quietly remove the animals if they cause a disturbance. Marking one's pew should be right out, and parents should always bring a small tote bag containing cleaning products, small plastic bags and medical equipment in case of a bite.
Haha! I imagine this was said tongue in cheek?
But welcome to my Sunday mornings! My Guide Dog pups come with me to Church from eight weeks old and - at that age - it entails quite a bit of cleaning up! One bloke cuddled a pup (I warned him that they are crocodiles at this age, he laughed and said he was used to dogs) she nipped his ear and drew blood!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I have no problem with service dogs, adult or learners. But - as a non-dog owner - I am puzzled as to why those with dogs feel they can't just leave them at home sometimes.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
people are not very gracious about their idiosyncrasies... ...adults whose preferences or needs clash and should be able to talk to one another.
Sounds like you're saying that you do sympathize with and try to accommodate those with particular and unusual needs. Including those who feel they have a need to have their dog present (service dogs) and those who feel they have a need to have no dog present (allergies, phobias).
But you'd appreciate some little show of gratitude for the special efforts that you make ?
Rather than people acting as if they had a right to have those needs met regardless of the consequences to others ?
"Entitlement culture" can be hard to swallow...
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
people are not very gracious about their idiosyncrasies... ...adults whose preferences or needs clash and should be able to talk to one another.
Sounds like you're saying that you do sympathize with and try to accommodate those with particular and unusual needs. Including those who feel they have a need to have their dog present (service dogs) and those who feel they have a need to have no dog present (allergies, phobias).
But you'd appreciate some little show of gratitude for the special efforts that you make ?
Rather than people acting as if they had a right to have those needs met regardless of the consequences to others ?
"Entitlement culture" can be hard to swallow...
I don't even know if it's a new thing or a "culture" so much as human nature. I think when we find ourselves uncomfortable, excluded, or marginalized because of a special need/disability, when accommodations are first made we tend to be quite grateful. The problem is, over time we take the accommodations for granted . We come to count on them as part of the fragile web that helps us navigate life. So we forget to say "thanks"-- or resent having to say thanks to simply be able to function like everyone else. And if, for some reason, those accommodations are withdrawn or compromised-- even in a momentary lapse (as with the non-gluten host mentioned above)-- all sorts of feelings that look like "entitlement" arise. All the more complicated by the fact that it's hard for someone on the outside to realize, as noted above, just how urgent or important any particular accommodation might be.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Guide dogs strap line is "We will not rest until people who are blind or partially sighted can enjoy the same freedom of movement as everyone else."
I doubt that anyone would bat an eyelid about allowing a wheelchair into a public space. Guide dogs do for blind and VI people what wheelchairs do for the physically disabled.
I don't think they need to be in the least grateful for people accommodating their dogs - it should be a given, an entitlement. In fact it is, in law.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I have no problem with service dogs, adult or learners. But - as a non-dog owner - I am puzzled as to why those with dogs feel they can't just leave them at home sometimes.
P.S. Just to clarify - by the latter I meant the owners of PET dogs. It would be outrageous to ban Guide Dogs etc.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
people are not very gracious about their idiosyncrasies... ...adults whose preferences or needs clash and should be able to talk to one another.
Sounds like you're saying that you do sympathize with and try to accommodate those with particular and unusual needs. Including those who feel they have a need to have their dog present (service dogs) and those who feel they have a need to have no dog present (allergies, phobias).
But you'd appreciate some little show of gratitude for the special efforts that you make ?
Rather than people acting as if they had a right to have those needs met regardless of the consequences to others ?
"Entitlement culture" can be hard to swallow...
I don't even know if it's a new thing or a "culture" so much as human nature. I think when we find ourselves uncomfortable, excluded, or marginalized because of a special need/disability, when accommodations are first made we tend to be quite grateful. The problem is, over time we take the accommodations for granted . We come to count on them as part of the fragile web that helps us navigate life. So we forget to say "thanks"-- or resent having to say thanks to simply be able to function like everyone else. And if, for some reason, those accommodations are withdrawn or compromised-- even in a momentary lapse (as with the non-gluten host mentioned above)-- all sorts of feelings that look like "entitlement" arise. All the more complicated by the fact that it's hard for someone on the outside to realize, as noted above, just how urgent or important any particular accommodation might be.
Yes, you both put your finger on it. I should remind myself of this whenever frustrations arises, I'm just not mindful enough.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
One church in our area has a large dog which comes with his Master every Sunday to church. The only problem seems to be that people want to offer him to many cookies at fellowship time following the service.
My own church has many people visit who are on vacation so we have had several people come with their dogs. Some in carriers some not. It has not been a problem so far.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Guide dogs strap line is "We will not rest until people who are blind or partially sighted can enjoy the same freedom of movement as everyone else."
Yet you are denying that freedom to allergy sufferers.
I'm not certain there is a perfect solution to such competing rights, but the automatic preference of one over the other is, frankly, wrong.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I don't have a pet dog, but I imagine that if you do have one and have to leave it at home during the working week you probably want to enjoy its company at the weekend.
More generally, this thread highlights the challenge of providing for today's demanding society, where individuals expect their needs to be met.
It must be difficult for the clergy to take so many medical and psychological etc. issues into account, but the alternative is probably an emptier church. The message is, be careful what you wish for. Mo' worshippers = mo' problems, to coin a phrase!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't have a pet dog, but I imagine that if you do have one and have to leave it at home during the working week you probably want to enjoy its company at the weekend.
More generally, this thread highlights the challenge of providing for today's demanding society, where individuals expect their needs to be met.
It must be difficult for the clergy to take so many medical and psychological etc. issues into account, but the alternative is probably an emptier church. The message is, be careful what you wish for. Mo' worshippers = mo' problems, to coin a phrase!
There is a difference between a community and a market. The church must be about building a community, not satisfying (or creating) a market.
The outcome to worry about is a fractured community, not a smaller market. If the community is fractured by competing, partially unsatisfied entitlements, then it will eventually fall apart completely. To my mind the urgent challenge is for the church as a whole to find ways of enshrining in its life the expectation that its members will wash each other's feet, rather than demanding that the service be provided in every case by the clergy.
Looking at the list of incompatible demands Joseaphat has mentioned, the question of non-service dogs is indeed the one which screams out for dialogue between members of the community. Unless the two elements acknowledge each other and reach an accommodation, they can't be part of the same community, since one side requires its valued companion animals to be honoured, and the other requires vermin to be excluded from its place of worship.
The other demands fall on the clergy because they are specifically liturgical. Of course, if lay celebrants are used, those demands fall on those lay celebrants, but it will be a cold day in hell (I pretty confidently predict) before lay celebrants lead an anglo-catholic congregation in any celebration of the eucharist other an exceptional mass of the pre-sanctified.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
[qb] And presumably people with allergies can't guarantee they'll go through life in an entirely animal-hair free space all the time, anyway.
Yes, and this is precisely why we ought to take some thought to making church a safe(r) place for them. Someone who is fearfully allergic or asthmatic can't let their guard down anywhere; but it would be a kindness to make church a place they had less to worry about.
It seems to me that we've got a constant struggle going on between those who want to frame the discussion in terms of rights ("What do we HAVE to do?") and those who look at it more as kindness and courtesy ("What can we do?"). There's some validity to the first frame, but it's almost guaranteed to raise people's hackles on both sides. For bars, airports, supermarkets, etc. that might be appropriate. For church we can do better.
So the kindness and courtesy to the lonely and eccentric lady who is inseperable from her cat and insists on taking it with her wherever she goes is shown by....what?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
There is a difference between a community and a market. The church must be about building a community, not satisfying (or creating) a market.
The outcome to worry about is a fractured community, not a smaller market. If the community is fractured by competing, partially unsatisfied entitlements, then it will eventually fall apart completely. To my mind the urgent challenge is for the church as a whole to find ways of enshrining in its life the expectation that its members will wash each other's feet, rather than demanding that the service be provided in every case by the clergy.
Looking at the list of incompatible demands Joseaphat has mentioned, the question of non-service dogs is indeed the one which screams out for dialogue between members of the community.
I agree that a dialogue and an accommodation is required. However, someone is going to have to be the mediator in the process. Perhaps the CofE can provide assistance from elsewhere, if the minister needs it?
ISTM that the CofE in particular has to work hard to create a community out of very diverse groups of people - especially in a city like London. (And I don't suppose there's much of a 'market' mentality for Anglo-Catholics.)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So the kindness and courtesy to the lonely and eccentric lady who is inseperable from her cat and insists on taking it with her wherever she goes is shown by....what?
People being kind and supportive so she does not need a substitute?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I think dogs in church should be no problem as long as they are seen and not heard. It's up to the parents to be respectful of their congregation and quietly remove the animals if they cause a disturbance. Marking one's pew should be right out, and parents should always bring a small tote bag containing cleaning products, small plastic bags and medical equipment in case of a bite.
Haha! I imagine this was said tongue in cheek?
But welcome to my Sunday mornings! My Guide Dog pups come with me to Church from eight weeks old and - at that age - it entails quite a bit of cleaning up! One bloke cuddled a pup (I warned him that they are crocodiles at this age, he laughed and said he was used to dogs) she nipped his ear and drew blood!
Great story!
![[Razz]](tongue.gif) and yes, I was definitely taking the mickey.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
[qb] And presumably people with allergies can't guarantee they'll go through life in an entirely animal-hair free space all the time, anyway.
Yes, and this is precisely why we ought to take some thought to making church a safe(r) place for them. Someone who is fearfully allergic or asthmatic can't let their guard down anywhere; but it would be a kindness to make church a place they had less to worry about.
It seems to me that we've got a constant struggle going on between those who want to frame the discussion in terms of rights ("What do we HAVE to do?") and those who look at it more as kindness and courtesy ("What can we do?"). There's some validity to the first frame, but it's almost guaranteed to raise people's hackles on both sides. For bars, airports, supermarkets, etc. that might be appropriate. For church we can do better.
So the kindness and courtesy to the lonely and eccentric lady who is inseperable from her cat and insists on taking it with her wherever she goes is shown by....what?
As I said: Frame it in terms of "what can we do?" and not "how can we turn this into a nasty rights' conflict?"
Some options that leap to mind are:
Discover whether your congregation even HAS any cat-allergic people. If not, problem solved.
Talk to the cat-allergics and see whether this cat's presence is in fact causing them any difficulty. If their allergies are mild, they may very well say "no, not at all."
See whether the lady herself is aware of the potential problem, and ask if she has ideas to offer (she may not be as unyielding as you seem to posit).
See if the two groups can talk it out. They may choose to frequent separate services or to sit very distant from one another.
If you start from the assumption that kindness and courtesy is the default (as it ought to be, in the body of Christ), people will often surprise you. We worked out a far worse scenario which had two people (a disturbed woman and the family whose lives she had endangered) through this kind of give and take, for the sake of the two children involved. They ended by going to separate services so as to allow each child to maintain the worship situation he was used to while simultaneously feeling safe and welcome.
[ 29. August 2016, 01:50: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So the kindness and courtesy to the lonely and eccentric lady who is inseperable from her cat and insists on taking it with her wherever she goes is shown by....what?
I'm not sure this lady actually exists - the church may well welcome her cat, but I doubt the supermarket would.
I'm even less certain that the cat exists - most cats I've known wouldn't tolerate being carted around as luggage by an eccentric old lady, however lonely.
But suppose for the sake of argument I stipulate your scenario. It is likely, in a church of any size, that there will also be people who are allergic to the precious puss. How to accommodate both sets of people? Well, if the old lady keeps her puss confined - whether in a carrier, old-lady shopping trolley or whatever - and she and the cat-allergic arrange to not sit near each other, then there shouldn't be a problem.
I think it's pretty unreasonable to expect your feline to be free-range, though.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Just this Sunday a very fluffy dog was brought into church and as a result I had a massive asthma attack and was forced to leave and go home. The reaction of one of the deacons was "why don't you just take a pill"? which shocked me. People without allergies fail to realise how scary and dangerous reactions can be. If dogs must be brought to church, then maybe they can wait for their owners in a special place and not in the midst of the congregation. Then again, maybe I'll bring a pet crocodile with me next Sunday and everyone can smile at it.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
There are various answers to "take a pill", most of which aren't possible at the time because you're breathing through a straw and it's taking all the oxygen you can absorb to stand up and leave:
"Well, I've already taken my full allowance of inhaled steroids and long term reliever today plus the full dose of short term reliever so I can stand up and leave. The asthma nurse has chosen not to prescribe me the antihistamine steroid asthma medication because there are contraindications: bone thinning and other problems, and it needs taking regularly to work. I was rather hoping that my usual tactics of minimising my exposure to triggers was going to avoid having to take additional measures."
"I've taken my anti-histamine pill and will now be taking my asthma steroids to help my lungs recover for the next week. If I do not leave now I will be leaving in an ambulance on a nebuliser."
(That's my version of asthma and my daughter's brittle asthma)
People die of asthma, particularly brittle asthma and uncontrolled normal asthma. I am permanently balancing up how much medication I take to be able to live reasonably normally and can deal with the triggers I usually encounter. Adding new triggers unexpectedly can move a controlled asthmatic to an uncontrolled asthmatic on their way to hospital.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Just this Sunday a very fluffy dog was brought into church.
I'm finding this a bizarre conversation. I've been a Minister for 30 years and I've NEVER had anyone bring a dog into church, except for "blind" dogs and, once or twice, homeless "men of the road". Am I living in the wrong country or just moving in the wrong ecclesiastical circles?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I think you must lead a sheltered life.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Perhaps churches should have a 'church dog certification program'. Like therapy dog certification this would guarantee that dogs are certified not to bite, pee/poop on the floors, scratch, jump up on people, snap up dropping communion hosts as if they were dog treats. We'd also want them not run through crowds, bowling the unstable over. Howling could improve hymn singing. Barking and whining might add to the amening and hallelujahing in charismatic churches.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Perhaps churches should have a 'church dog certification program'. Like therapy dog certification this would guarantee that dogs are certified not to bite, pee/poop on the floors, scratch, jump up on people, snap up dropping communion hosts as if they were dog treats. We'd also want them not run through crowds, bowling the unstable over. Howling could improve hymn singing. Barking and whining might add to the amening and hallelujahing in charismatic churches.
All helpful, I'm sure, but wouldn't address the key problem which is allergies. I think the only way forward is was suggested above-- doing the hard work of getting the parties together to negotiate something workable, whether that's attending different services or sitting on different sides of the church. Often churches have a section for parents with small children, located near a "nursing moms room". Much as I hate it, I imagine there are those who purposely sit far apart from that section because they don't like the disturbance. We may need a section for people with service animals, which those who are allergic can (for far more understandable reasons) avoid.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I think you must lead a sheltered life.
No, it's very rare indeed in the UK. Pets are allowed in very few public places.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Golden Key
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# 1468
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Posted
--Kaplan: LOL re the cannibal!
--The LDS/Mormon Church site has a Disability Resources section. I've only skimmed parts of it. But it looks like they tried hard to do a thorough job, yet kept the writing accessible to lay people. The Disability List breaks down into various types of disabilities, with tips for helping and teaching people. From what I've seen so far, they offer some sensible tips. YMMV.
ETA: Just saw that the Chronic Illness section acknowledges invisible disabilities! And lists chronic fatigue syndrome. Yay! Go, Mormons! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 30. August 2016, 03:46: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The problem with separating the allergic from the dogs and owners by time is that someone who is allergic will not be able to sit in the same seat later as the dog hairs and dander will still be there to trigger a reaction. It may well require an agreement about times and areas.
We had a Guide who was so allergic to cats we had to organise dormitories and tents by those who had no cats at home and could guarantee no cat hair on their clothes and equipment and the rest.
The Calmac ferries have pet areas set aside for dog owners, a row of seating in semi-circles with, hopefully, space for a dog in each section. Last time I saw this, there were too many dogs for the spaces and a certain amount of negotiation was taking place.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The problem with separating the allergic from the dogs and owners by time is that someone who is allergic will not be able to sit in the same seat later as the dog hairs and dander will still be there to trigger a reaction. It may well require an agreement about times and areas.
Yes, I've been wondering if a church that allows pets would be willing to do the necessary clean-up after every service, every single time. And keep in mind that dog hair and dander won't necessarily stay where the dog was.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Just this Sunday a very fluffy dog was brought into church.
I'm finding this a bizarre conversation. I've been a Minister for 30 years and I've NEVER had anyone bring a dog into church, except for "blind" dogs and, once or twice, homeless "men of the road". Am I living in the wrong country or just moving in the wrong ecclesiastical circles?
I've been thinking the same thing. Other than service dogs, I've never heard of anyone taking a pet to church, or wanting to.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
Many years ago my sons began attending an AOG church down here. They came home and related the tale of an old woman and Boy. She asked the pastor to pray for Boy. He was very ill. The pastor assumed Boy to be a son and prayed long and loudly for him. Boy however was a very ill cat she was carrying around in a fabric shopping bag. Boy lived.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
We regularly have dogs in church - often several of them. I would never bring my dogs to church - not because I don't like dogs in church but because mine would misbehave. They wouldn't just sit or lie down placidly.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So the kindness and courtesy to the lonely and eccentric lady who is inseperable from her cat and insists on taking it with her wherever she goes is shown by....what?
I'm not sure this lady actually exists - the church may well welcome her cat, but I doubt the supermarket would.
I'm even less certain that the cat exists - most cats I've known wouldn't tolerate being carted around as luggage by an eccentric old lady, however lonely.
But suppose for the sake of argument I stipulate your scenario. It is likely, in a church of any size, that there will also be people who are allergic to the precious puss. How to accommodate both sets of people? Well, if the old lady keeps her puss confined - whether in a carrier, old-lady shopping trolley or whatever - and she and the cat-allergic arrange to not sit near each other, then there shouldn't be a problem.
I think it's pretty unreasonable to expect your feline to be free-range, though.
TBF the lady I had in mind wasn't that old and I don't know whether she was lonely or not, but she was eccentric and did bring her cat to church. it sat on her shoulder and was certainly not free-range.
Actually I wouldn't suggest that one should routinely bring pets to church. But equally I know that occasionally people do and I think that provided they are kept under control we should be able to cope with that. It's part of taking the rough and smooth of life.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I mentioned above that I was one of that cohort of the population which has been attacked by dogs. Unless I can see clearly that a dog is on a firmly-held short leash, or is an obvious service dog, I cannot assume that it is safe for me, and will therefore have to leave the service.
While I am allergic (very) to cats, I don't mind sharing space with them-- it is the prospect of danger which bothers me. If I see Fluffy sitting there without being firmly kept close, I am out of there rather than risk their teeth.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
And you cannot - or will not- try to get over your fear of dogs? There are quite a lot of them around, you know. You might find it made life easier if you could.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So the kindness and courtesy to the lonely and eccentric lady who is inseperable from her cat and insists on taking it with her wherever she goes is shown by....what?
I'm not sure this lady actually exists - the church may well welcome her cat, but I doubt the supermarket would.
I'm even less certain that the cat exists - most cats I've known wouldn't tolerate being carted around as luggage by an eccentric old lady, however lonely.
But suppose for the sake of argument I stipulate your scenario. It is likely, in a church of any size, that there will also be people who are allergic to the precious puss. How to accommodate both sets of people? Well, if the old lady keeps her puss confined - whether in a carrier, old-lady shopping trolley or whatever - and she and the cat-allergic arrange to not sit near each other, then there shouldn't be a problem.
I think it's pretty unreasonable to expect your feline to be free-range, though.
TBF the lady I had in mind wasn't that old and I don't know whether she was lonely or not, but she was eccentric and did bring her cat to church. it sat on her shoulder and was certainly not free-range.
Actually I wouldn't suggest that one should routinely bring pets to church. But equally I know that occasionally people do and I think that provided they are kept under control we should be able to cope with that. It's part of taking the rough and smooth of life.
For values of rough that include asthma attacks, uncontrolled allergic reactions and other joys, I presume.
This reminds me of discussions about church as a safe space. Safe for whom, from what? For eccentric elderly ladies whose cat is their constant companion, or for sufferers of auto-immune diseases who need not to be exposed to unexpected triggers?
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And you cannot - or will not- try to get over your fear of dogs? There are quite a lot of them around, you know. You might find it made life easier if you could.
And you cannot - or will not - control your dog? A the A quite clearly said that he was OK if you had your dog firmly secured.
My kids are scared of dogs. This is quite rational behaviour - dogs are mostly larger and stronger than them, and have sharp teeth suited to ripping meat apart. Children are made of meat.
So if I see your dog not under your direct control and in the vicinity of my children, I will be identifying things that I can use as weapons and planning how I can disable or kill your dog should it show signs of attacking.
Very much the same as the response I'd have to Lamb Chopped showing up with her pet crocodile, in fact, although I'd fancy my chances against a dog rather more than I would against a crocodile.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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