Ship of Fools: Kinesthetic prayer

Thread: Kinesthetic prayer Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

... and no, I don't mean the dreaded liturgical dancing. When I imagine trying to do that the words "very like a whale" come to mind...

But it seems to me that there ought to be a way of praying with the whole body, or most of it. But I can't work out how. I mean, I know the standard stand/kneel/lie prostrate things, but I'm thinking movement of some sort. I've rather envied people who speak sign language, as that seems to get closer to what I'm vaguely reaching for.

Any thoughts, ideas, experiences?

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

I think I have done this sometimes - sort of acting something out, symbolically, for it to become more meaningful, like a ritual. Not all the time though - only when I'm praying about very specific things, which generally involve a life transition. But I'm quite a still person in general, so my regular prayers don't involve movement, unless I am praying while walking. It's not something I think my prayers should include - there were just a few times when it seemed a helpful thing to do.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

You've reminded me that I haven't done this for a while, but I used to make the sign of the cross with my tongue a lot (inside my closed mouth). It was a practice popular in Communist Poland, as it could be done surreptitiously. For me, the motivation was more having something very internal and private, but still bodily to do to just reconnect and ground whatever I was doing with God. Its private-ness meant I could do it while teaching, or driving, or running, etc.

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

Is this the sort of thing you were thinking of?

Body Prayer

Circle Dancing is very popular. It is often used on retreats. It isn't specifically Christian but is adapted to the Christian prayer context.

Also, there is Capacitar Scroll down the page a bit to find a brief description and a downloadable leaflet.

I think any sort of Tai Chi style exercise combined with reciting a mantra or short psalm or hymn could work as well.

And there are walking meditations praying through each of the senses in turn.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Thyme, that reminds me of a version of the Lord's Prayer I learnt from a mime artist, not quite the same as the version above, more tied into the words. So "Give us today our daily bread" is accompanied by a mime of breaking bread. I did draw it out somewhere - before I used it in Toddler Church.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I did take tai chi for a while, hoping I could do something similar with it, but it got cut short by emergency surgery. Shall have to see what I can do.

The Lord's Prayer thing is a nice idea, but the only thing they move is the arms!

Posted by Twangist (# 16208) on :

you could learn sign lang and pray in it.
We have a profoundly deaf chap at our shack and he will often sign the songs rather than sing, when I'm in the band I can see him and it's really cool.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

As I have posted elsewhere, I have a lot of confusion on what counts as prayer and what doesn't, so I think the way I do martial arts is not prayer, but it is very good for me mentally and spiritually, so I suspect disciplined exercises of that sort could definitely be done as prayer.

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
... and no, I don't mean the dreaded liturgical dancing.

Obligatory Stephen Colbert.

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But it seems to me that there ought to be a way of praying with the whole body, or most of it. But I can't work out how. I mean, I know the standard stand/kneel/lie prostrate things, but I'm thinking movement of some sort.

I fail to see what your issue is with the Full Prostration. I always thought that it was a great pity that the West didn't keep this, and that it was one of the smartest moves of the Muslims to "borrow" this tradition from the Jews and Christians (to the point where people now think of this being characteristically Muslim). As you can see in the Jewish version, this can be done multiple times and perfectly combines with voiced (chanted) prayer.

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I've rather envied people who speak sign language, as that seems to get closer to what I'm vaguely reaching for. Any thoughts, ideas, experiences?

Hmm, Pina Bausch like expressive dancing?

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

Once, in a small island church in Greece I saw a woman completely prostrate from the kneeling prostration, so she was lying prone face down. I think her arms were in front of her over her head. She stayed like that for some time. No, she wasn't having a charismatic experience, it was a deliberate liturgical movement.

I've seen photos of priests prostrating like that during the ordination service.

That was a very interesting link to Jewish liturgical movement. I always thought of the raising of hands in the air as a modern evangelical/charismatic thing. But clearly it has a much more ancient origin.

I have a friend who dances in her church when it is empty. (She has a key). Also, at home when she is praying.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I fail to see what your issue is with the Full Prostration

IngoB, stop being adversarial about this. I do not have an issue with any sort of prostration--you are reading that into my post.

I wrote

quote:
I know the standard stand/kneel/lie prostrate things, but I'm thinking movement of some sort.

You can se I left prostration out because I was interested in something else. And why?

Because I already use prostration.

Got it?

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I wrote
quote:
I know the standard stand/kneel/lie prostrate things, but I'm thinking movement of some sort.
You can se I left prostration out because I was interested in something else. And why? Because I already use prostration. Got it?

Not really... I don't know what you mean by "movement of some sort", since a full prostration certainly is "movement of some sort". Apparently something about this particular movement doesn't fit the bill, but you didn't say why and haven't done so still. It could have meant "moving around", as in shifting one's location. But the one example you gave was sign language, which is basically a movement of arms and face. That's not moving around either (at least one doesn't have to in order to sign). My next best guess was that what you liked about sign language is its ability to express things and/or its complexity of motion. So I linked to a favourite choreographer of mine, who is famous for doing expressive "theatrical" motion in dance derived from everyday observations, which is technically heavy on upper body mobility (rather than super-flexible/powerful stuff that only professional dancers can do).

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

If you insist on turning this request of mine into a boxing match, I'll just ignore you. And your video link is not available in this country.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

If I may make a distinction between active and passive movement, perhaps talking prayer is on the line between? Thus, might I argue that kneeling or other held positions are passive, but walking a labyrinth or signing of the cross might be considerd active. I am taking kinesthetic to mean active movement here.

From this, my question is whether the movement must be prayer in itself or if prayer may accompanying generic or everyday movement might also be considered as kinesthetic prayer? Thus, does saying prayer silently while bicycle commuting qualify? Because this is my daily practice.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

That would be great if I could only keep from having an accident! I do pray and walk, which is maybe a start.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

At lpresent I use the sign of the cross, standing, walking, sitting (can't kneel, bad knees), and flat out prostration. I've studied tai chi but can't yet do it without an amount of mental effort that drives out prayer. I've tried improv dancing (very privately) but find myself falling back on the same very limited number of movements, which is a bit distracting. I'm studying dance, and maybe this will help.

What exactly was David doing, anybody got a clue? Seems to have been rather athletic. [Eek!]

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
From this, my question is whether the movement must be prayer in itself or if prayer may accompanying generic or everyday movement might also be considered as kinesthetic prayer? Thus, does saying prayer silently while bicycle commuting qualify? Because this is my daily practice.

My opinion is yes to both. The movement can be prayer if the intention is to open the whole self to God. And prayer can accompany everyday movement, be it washing the dishes, cycling, in the gym, walking, swimming, whatever.

I think the key to the question 'Is this prayer?' is if the intention is to pray, either actively in the form of offering the activity to God, or intercession, or passively in the form of holding oneself open to God while in the activity.

I think these are the ways we get closest to Paul's idea of praying without ceasing. However, I wouldn't be too happy if my surgeon or dentist was concentrating on praying and not my medical needs. But would be happy if they offered their work to God at the beginning. Privately of course [Ultra confused]

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
If you insist on turning this request of mine into a boxing match, I'll just ignore you. And your video link is not available in this country.

Asking you to clarify your meaning is not turning anything into a "boxing match". I still do not know what you are looking for, or if you are unsure about that yourself, at least what you are not looking for. And I linked to three different videos, which one of these is not available for you?

If you don't mind the eclecticism, then Ashtanga Yoga is a good source for "meditative motion". And the Sun Salutation is a simple sequence of motions that can be done basically anywhere, is fundamental in terms of body exercise, and can be repeated as often as you like.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

IngoB - I shouldn't be hosting on this thread as I've already got involved, but your tone is coming over as sarcastic and unhelpful to me, and it's not aimed at me.

I understood this board to be helping people pray in whatever way they find helpful. Posting Stephen Colbert is unhelpful and many Christians would find the Salute to the Sun offensive as a prayer suggestion.

Curiosity Killed ...
Kempistry Host

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

My answer to this hostly intervention can be found here. I think that probably is the appropriate place...

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

There is NOTHING like hill climbing.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

Or hill cycling.

The view to the top shows the wonder of God and his creation. But there's something prayerful bout the struggle to get there as well. It is not just that the walk or cycle helps us to pray, in a sense it is a prayer in itself too.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Absolutely balaam. The Rule of Benedict - to work is to pray - applies completely to every aspect of life, every breath, especially the ones we aren't aware of.

Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :

wrt body poosition (in Yoga it is called "Mudras"), the use of hands in prayer is an interesting case in point

If you become aware of yoour body, your state of consciousness, the degree to shich your sensory system is turned on, your general awareness fo the surrounding environment, your sense of aliveness - this combination is a general core "self awareness" check-in.

Now (having alreadfy logged your core state) gently spring your flat palms together as if you are praying "a la traditional" - how does your core state feel now?

ditto for one hand clasping another (wringing hands preayer position)

ditto for interlaced fingers prayer position

Which do you prefer? Why?

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Now (having alreadfy logged your core state) gently spring your flat palms together as if you are praying "a la traditional" - how does your core state feel now?

ditto for one hand clasping another (wringing hands preayer position)

ditto for interlaced fingers prayer position

Which do you prefer? Why?

That's a good question. For me it is roughly this spectrum:

attention / effort
---
palms
interlaced fingers
wringing hands
---
ease / relaxation

Thus I would use the interlaced fingers as a kind of "neutral" position, palms when I try to focus my mind and/or if it is somehow official / public, and wringing hands if I want to calm my mind or "let go".

However, If I had to choose one position to maintain for a long time, then I would choose the interlaced fingers. Basically, the wringing hands thing is just a bit odd on the wrists, and the longer you keep the hands locked the more this becomes an issue. The interlaced fingers may feel a bit more "complicated" at first, but requires next to no effort to keep up.

Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :

ah yes - effort - that is a good point, Ingo

I was specifically thinking about whether there was a somatic effect a bit deeper that is not associated specifically with the hands and wrists. Sorry - this is part of my job and I often forget that most people expect somnatic effect to be contained locally to the movement. A good reminder for me.

Posted by CuppaT (# 10523) on :

In times of great duress, I have been known to lie face down, cruciform in front of the cross for long times. To be still, and to pray, usually to cry. I also follow the Syrian practice of beating my head against the floor when I pray. But as I am no ascetic, neither the son of an ascetic, I do so only 3 times and lightly. Being Orthodox, our whole family is quite used to praying with hands raised, looking up, looking down, crossing ourselves, deep metanias, and the quick prostrations (or the bouncy prayers, as my little ones used to call them).

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
... and no, I don't mean the dreaded liturgical dancing. When I imagine trying to do that the words "very like a whale" come to mind...

But it seems to me that there ought to be a way of praying with the whole body, or most of it. But I can't work out how. I mean, I know the standard stand/kneel/lie prostrate things, but I'm thinking movement of some sort. I've rather envied people who speak sign language, as that seems to get closer to what I'm vaguely reaching for.

Any thoughts, ideas, experiences?

I've admitted elsewhere on the boards that I have a bit of a dance background so I think I know from where you're coming from. A long time ago I used to study flamenco and modern dance pretty seriously and though I didn't continue with it I think that on some level I still think of myself as a dancer. All that and fifty cents won't even get you a cup of coffee but for what it's worth here are some of my thoughts:

The sad thing is that dance is the one art form that Christianity, with some exceptions, has failed to develop until now. What that means is that for most of us* there isn't a lot in our backgrounds that we can use to express ourselves bodily in prayer without reaching across cultures and history ( I believe there were some times and places where dance was used in medieval Europe but that didn't survive for the most part).

For myself, in the past I would go for walks when praying my rosary and nowadays I sometimes rock back and forth like a Jewish yeshiva student when I pray alone in my room. I even tend to sway from side to side when standing at mass (it must be my inner charismatic).

It's funny that someone brought up the Sun Salutations because I've been dabbling in Yoga again (from a book and websites) and a couple of weeks ago I tried to pray while doing them but I found that I was a lot more comfortable focusing on my breath and movement and at least on that night I couldn't really pray with devotion. On the other hand the other night I tried praying while sitting in hero pose and that did seem to go well.

If I were in your place I would start by going back to the beginning. You said you

quote:
use the sign of the cross, standing, walking, sitting (can't kneel, bad knees), and flat out prostration.

When and how do you use these gestures? Do you use them randomly and spontaneously or do you have a set pattern or ritual? If it's the former I would first set the movement in some kind of context like the Daily Office or your set of daily prayers or meditations. Then make sure your movements are full, deliberate and complete (like for example, don't just quickly do the sign of the cross, stretch out the arm and extend the hand deliberately from the forehead to the bottom of the torso to each shoulder). I know that sounds borderline cheesy and artsy-fartsy but it's a way of concentrating on your prayer and movement and on stage it would help you look "alive" and not like you're just going through the motions both literally and figuratively.

quote:
I've tried improv dancing (very privately) but find myself falling back on the same very limited number of movements, which is a bit distracting.

It sounds like you're coming up with your own private movement vocabulary. You can work with that even if it seems repetitive at first. You can extend the number of movements by going over them slowly and finding out what follow-up movements and gestures seem natural to you. For example, if you're always taking a step to the right, what does your left foot want to do? Does it want to step forward? Behind yourself? Does your body want to bend one direction or twist in another direction? Things like that. Find out what movements come naturally to you after the ones you already know and learn them.

Hope this helps. Maybe I'll think of something else to add later.

*It just so happens that in my cultural background (Mexican) there is a tradition of dancing at religious events but it's a little hard to use feathers, rattles and drums without waking up the neighbors. [Smile]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Thank you! This helps a lot. Though now I really want the feathers and rattles :-).

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Or hill cycling.

The view to the top shows the wonder of God and his creation. But there's something prayerful bout the struggle to get there as well. It is not just that the walk or cycle helps us to pray, in a sense it is a prayer in itself too.

Not sure about this one for me; if it is, it's "O Lord, why didst thou put this stupid 15% ramp here, in thy wisdom?"

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

No pain, no gain Karl.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

I didn't mean to neglect this thread but I wanted to respond at least one last time before the Kempistry board disappears.

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Thank you! This helps a lot. Though now I really want the feathers and rattles :-).

You're Welcome! If you're curious about what I was talking about, do a search for "matachines" and "concheros" on Wikipedia and Youtube.

I had a few more ideas that I think might be helpful. Much if not most of the modern dance that I studied was derived from Graham and Limón techniques. Graham technique was developed by Martha Graham, the great American modern dancer. Limón technique was developed by José Limón, the great Mexican-born modern dancer out of the technique of his mentor Doris Humphrey, Martha Graham's contemporary and rival. As a result, it's sometimes called Humphrey-Limón technique. The philosophy behind each technique can be summed up in two phrases. "Contract and release" for Graham, "Fall and recovery" for Limón.

"Contract and release" refers to the origin of movement in much of Graham's work, out of the body's core, specifically abdomen and pelvic area, and how its contraction and releas spurs the body's movement. "Fall and recovery" comes from Humphrey's belief, if I remember correctly, that dance lies in that space between a body's falling and rising.

I'm probably getting something wrong (it's been a while) and I'm vastly over-simplifying but that's the general idea and I think if you keep both of them in mind when you practice on your own it will give you ideas for movement and how to inhabit them, how to elaborate them and how to connect between them.

There's lots of stuff on Youtube so it couldn't hurt to look up these choreographer's work to get some ideas. It would help to look up dance in general and watch a lot of it. It's sort of like reading widely to develop a vocabulary. I wouldn't hesitate to incorporate the Tai-Chi and the dance you're learning as well.

Other things to remember:

"Breathe". It sounds ridiculous but you really do forget to breathe sometimes when dancing (or working out, or doing yoga, etc. for that matter0. "The ground is a taking-off place". Again, sounds artsy-fartsy but it's a pharase a teacher used all the time and gets across the idea of always being alert, always being ready to move even when your posing or standing still, like a cat."Don't die!", similar to the previous phrase of being alive and alert no matter what you're doing on stage but with prayer I'd connect this to recollection and bringing your thoughts together back from wandering. "Length over height, control over speed" is something I'd remind myself when practicing. Before trying any high kicks or anything fancy make sure you're stable, lengthen your movements and keep balance, among other things. Tai-Chi should help with that. There were a couple of other things I wanted to add, practical stuff, but now I've forgotten [Frown]

.

Going back to Youtube, look up Pina Bausch. Ingo mentioned her above. You'll get an idea of the range of expressive movement out there, like the lady in white in this clip. A number of choreographers have done work on spiritual subjects and themes. The most famous of these in the U.S. is Alvin Ailey's "Revelations", based on his experience in the African-American church. Clips of it are available on Youtube. Martha Graham did work with spiritual themes too. "Primitive Mysteries", "El Penitente", "Seraphic Dialogue". There's a segment from "Seraphic Dialogue", a work about St. Joan of Arc, available here.

Finally, José Limón did some work with a spiritual theme as well. A long, long time ago I was fortunate enough to attend a workshop given by current and former members of his company where we worked on material from some of his work. One of the things we did was work on parts of some of his work including a segment of "There is a Time", a work based on the famous passage from Ecclesiastes ("For every season, turn, turn, turn..."). You can see a video of the this work here: José Limón - There is a Time.

I hope this all gives you some inspiration.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Still a topic of interest when the Kempistry board closed, so transferring to Ecclesiantics for further discussion.

Kelly Alves, Admin/ Kempistry Host.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

I came across something recently that reminded me of this thread. I was reading about the Christmas carol In Dulci Jubilo in Wikipedia when I came across this bit:

quote:
The original song text, a macaronic alternation of Medieval German and Latin, is thought to have been written by the German mystic Heinrich Seuse circa 1328. According to folklore, Seuse heard angels sing these words and joined them in a dance of worship. In his biography (or perhaps autobiography), it was written:

Now this same angel came up to the Servant (Suso) brightly, and said that God had sent him down to him, to bring him heavenly joys amid his sufferings; adding that he must cast off all his sorrows from his mind and bear them company, and that he must also dance with them in heavenly fashion. Then they drew the Servant by the hand into the dance, and the youth began a joyous song about the infant Jesus ...

So, this carol was inspired by dancing angels. Very appropriate for this thread!

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

John Rutter's Brother Heinrich's Christmas is based on this story. I know a lot of people here dislike Rutter, but this "fable set to music" is delightful, IMHO.

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

It is the body prayer of Julian of Norwich that I base my evening prayer on, but with my own focus:
Hands prayerfully together I acknowledge the holiness of creation
Arms upraised I greet God present in creation – I listen, look, and breathe deeply, savouring the scents of the garden and the breath of the moving air on my skin (ie involving all my senses); my mind might travel to distant stars.
Crossed arms on my body enfold the spirit within me
Arms wide, I am connected in prayer with those I know and name and with peoples of concern in the world
Hands in namaste position as I greet those I have named.
I don't use words. How can you address a present spirit?

GG

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

I think that folks interested in the use of movement with prayer will find the page at the link below worth reading.

quote:
The Nine Ways of Prayer of St. Dominic is a treasured Dominican document on St. Dominic’s manner of praying. It was written by an anonymous author, probably at Bologna, between 1260 and 1288. Sister Cecilia of the Monastery of St. Agnes at Bologna (who had received the habit from St. Dominic) and others who had known him personally were most likely the source of this information.

These ways of prayer were the actual practice of our Holy Father. Standing, bowing, kneeling—St. Dominic knew that the gestures of the body could powerfully dispose the soul to prayer. In this experience of bodily prayer, the soul in turn is lifted to God in an act of praise, thanksgiving, and supplication. These ways of prayer are a glimpse into the inner life of St. Dominic and his intense love for God.

The Nine Ways of Prayer of St. Dominic

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