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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Introducing Modern Worship...
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matthew_dixon
Shipmate
# 12278
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Posted
Hi all,
I'm starting a thread here to ask for advice. I know I've not been about in ages, and I also trust that Ecclesiantics is the best place to post this - feel free to move it if not.
I am currently a lay reader in an Anglican parish. For those non-Anglicans unfamiliar with what that means, I can lead a wide range of non-Eucharistic services (and frequently do on Sunday evenings) and can preach, but have no authority to perform sacramental ministry. Our parish comprises of two churches, both middle-of-the-road, and very liberal with the one I attend being somewhat higher church than the other.
There is a couple in our church who are based at my church on a Sunday morning, and also attend some of our other services in both churches. At the back end of last year, they each separately expressed a wish for us to sometimes have some "more modern hymns". He expressed it to me, she expressed it to our parish priest. My understanding of this was Matt Redman/Stuart Townend/Martin Smith. I was going to raise it in our ministry team meeting, but the vicar got there first. We were talking about what music we were having for Advent and she mentioned that in the other church, on Advent 4, they were having "The Virgin Mary Had A Baby Boy", pre-empting Christmas. She went on to say that the lady of the couple in question had "asked for more music like this". I clarified with her that what the lady had said was that she wanted more modern music. I played a bit of "10,000 Reasons" by Matt Redman, and none of the rest of our ministry team were that impressed, but they suggested, given myself and the vicar had differing opinions of what this couple meant that I should clarify. I did, and as I thought, it was me that was spot on.
In my church, we pretty much don't sing anything post-1900. In the other church, they do sometimes have modern music - but modern = "Shine Jesus Shine" and other things of that era.
So - I'm wondering how to square this circle. Personally, I do like more modern worship songs (as well as traditional hymns) and I pretty much "get my fill" of them by attending a monthly service in our local Methodist circuit.
I was debating leading a non-Eucharistic evening service in Easter time with music of this style. We easily have enough strong musicians to form a worship band (and I believe have enough that would be well up for forming a worship band for a service like this). However, whilst I believe a number of people in the parish would be up for attending such a service, they would essentially know none of the hymns (Maybe a few might have happened to come across "In Christ Alone" - but the line about "the wrath of God" doesn't sit well with our liberal theology). Additionally, some people are, rightly, concerned about whether the theology of some modern worship songs fits with our own.
So - I'm really not sure what to do. I think there might be place in our area (we are in the heart of student-ville) for a service that mixes the modern worship songs sung at more Evangelical churches with the liberal and inclusive theology preached in our own parish.
Alternatively, do I simply invite the couple in question to join me at the Methodist service I attend, and accept that our parish will never (or at least not in the foreseeable future) accept any music produced later than 1920 or 1980 (depending on which church you're at)?
Posts: 321 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Jan 2007
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Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
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Posted
My take is that the only reason for using any hymns/songs in worship is that they enhance the service. In other words the music should be in line with the emotional temperature of the service, and the words in tune with the theme. (And not banal, though that is a subjective thing.) Neither modernity nor Victorianism is a good thing in itself; neither familiarity nor newness is a reason to select or not select a hymn.
But you have to introduce new hymns gradually. One minister I know, who cares for a congregation of English speakers from all over the world, has a hymn of the month, just to build up a repertoire that all the congregation can be familiar with. That might be a way of introducing new hymns to a congregation which is not familiar with them (so long as they are worth introducing, see above!). By the time they have sung a hymn every Sunday for a month, it will no longer be new. But maybe you don't get to lead a service with such continuity, so you and your vicar would have to work together on it.
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
If you were to have a service, plan for a half hour sing-a-long with coffee, etc. if that seems right. Then have a half-hour service that includes the songs that went over the best. You could also use the music and style of Taizé or do it with music from Iona or just go with the modern worship songs. You may be wise to frame it as an exploration of that music or style of worship for a one night thing or for four or six weeks in a row.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I am very puzzled that you don't make any mention of discussing this musical question with the organist(s) in the parish - is there a particular reason why?
The point raised above about the liturgical 'temperature' of existing liturgies is spot on: yes, it is perfectly possible to introduce more contemporary music into existing liturgy but it needs to be done carefully.
It also comes down to what you mean by 'more modern music' for worship - an expression that will have widely differing interpretations. What do I mean? Well, at our place we do have more 'modern' stuff from time to time: in the past few years we've had music by James MacMillan, John Tavener, Arvo Pärt, plus the usual Rutter (not a lot), Messiaen, etc.
But I'm guessing you're referring to what is called 'worship music', as produced by people like Vineyard Music and Matt Redman.
The biggest difference between the two styles is not, as some would claim, that the more 'traditional' music is difficult, or fuddy-duddy; it is that the more traditional type refer to the great truths of our religion and our relationship with Christ, while more modern hymns/songs tend to be more focused on the emotions and a one-to-one personal relationship.
It is up to the parish priest, at the end of the day, as to which style of music he thinks most likely to 'fit' and complement the worship style at the two churches, particularly bearing in mind the musical resources at the moment and the likely musical resources in, say, 10 years time.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
We had a music morning yesterday and I was impressed that a quarter of the congregation turned up.
The aim was to get us to try some 'modern' music and get our opinions.
We have the university choir but they are only here for about half the year so everyone else needs to sing when they're not here.
We looked at some new mass settings, discussed whether we should have a psalm at the Eucharist and, if so, Anglican chant, responsible, metrical.
We also tried out some new hymns but not Kendrick or Redman - instead, John Bell, Brian Wren and the like.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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matthew_dixon
Shipmate
# 12278
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Posted
I think any idea of introducing modern worship songs to our main Sunday morning service (which the guy in question doesn't see that there would be any issue with) is out of the question. The organist is a Bach expert with a love of all things late-Renaissance/Baroque - and considers some of what we already do a bit too "modern pop" really. The main morning service is classical choir and organ - and simply CANNOT start having modern worship songs in it, it would be out of place, and frankly would be a waste of a really strong choir.
Agreed also with the point that any ultimate decisions about the musical styles in our main morning services in both churches are ultimately down to our, very collaborative, parish priest - together with input from the organists at both churches and the choir director.
We already have very popular Taize services, and I believe we have once done an Iona service - but that was a good few years ago when we had someone in the congregation who was up for leading worship and had been living out on Iona. I'm not sure whether putting Taize music into an evening service as well as modern worship songs would be wise - as I personally don't think Taize works all that well when taken out of context and used as a conventional hymn/song.
Posts: 321 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Jan 2007
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
I am based at the other church in Matthew's parish, so know the situation fairly well, and hope you don't mind if I add to the discussion rather than sending a PM.
At my church we do usually have a reasonable mix of older and newer hymns and songs, with a bias to newer ones for the monthly family service. However, as Matthew said, "newer" tends to mean 1970s-1990s at the latest. There are two main reasons for this: firstly, the vicar chooses the music, apart from the anthems at Matthew's church, and isn't familiar with newish choruses; and secondly, our hymn book was printed in 2000.
As one of the regular organists, I very occasionally change one of the hymns on the list if it's in the hymn book and obviously relevant to the theme. It's not easy if nobody knows it, however - and that applies whether it's an old hymn, an Iona song or a 1980s chorus. At the very least you need a musician playing the song clearly and knowledgeably, and someone at the front or several people in the congregation who can sing it clearly. If it's in a newer style and doesn't suit the organ, you will need even more support.
A worship band would suit the type of music you have in mind, I assume, but it won't suit the rest of what the parish sings on an average Sunday. So for the main service, you either have the disruption of getting together a number of musicians for one odd piece, or you offer the congregation a service consisting entirely of music they don't normally sing.
That considered, a separate evening event may well be the best idea. Good luck with the band.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The more modern hymns which have passed into the classical repertoire can be found in 'Common Praise' - these are good starting points for introducing music from 1970 onwards.
I have been to churches which have carefully introduced some more meditative modern songs at set times in the service - for example during communion (these can initially be sung by a choir, to introduce familiarity) or immediately after the children have returned from Sunday School (ones that they would know and can take part in singing).
Otherwise, as l'Organist says, there are plently of modern anthems which are composed by current Cathedral organists and other living composers. Rutter seems to be a favourite of our congregation.
Where you have to be careful is that you don't let two people dictate to and alienate a whole congregation. Sometimes it is better to start a new service for people who want different worship, rather than trying to fiddle with a service format which works.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I used to attend a church which had a large congregation, a wonderful organ and a talented choir. A new minister arrived who had teenage daughters who persuaded Daddy that it would be much better from their point of view if we changed to a music group with modern worship songs. Sadly, this is what happened. The eminent organist left, and the choir was disbanded. Trouble was, half the congregation left too. It was a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water. I think it is important to consult with the whole congregation before making such drastic changes which after all were only requested by two people.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
particularly bearing in mind the musical resources at the moment and the likely musical resources in, say, 10 years time.
This. At a church I am somewhat familiar with, there is a constituency within the congregation that doesn't like traditional hymns, and would like "modern" worship band stuff. The priest looks at this, and says, not unreasonably, that they should include some of that style of music in the repertoire.
The traditional choir don't want to sing that style of music, but the members of the congregation who want a worship band aren't able to provide any musicians. So their "worship band" is the organist way outside his comfort zone on piano, someone with a guitar, and one poor singer.
And it's just bad.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
The traditional choir don't want to sing that style of music, but the members of the congregation who want a worship band aren't able to provide any musicians. So their "worship band" is the organist way outside his comfort zone on piano, someone with a guitar, and one poor singer.
And it's just bad.
Strongly agree with this. What I really want in a service is whatever style of music the musicians are best capable of using in a worshipful way.
The vicar should make it clear that the worship band is welcome to take over 1 sunday a month or thereabouts, just as soon as there is a worship band, but until then the musicians should keep doing what they do best.
As a related note, people who throw half-baked suggestions at the vicar should be encouraged to get very involved in the work of thinking through all the practical difficulties.
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
It's one of the Church of England's less charming heresies that it tends to see hymns and music as an interlude within the liturgy, rather than as an integral part of it. Ideally, the liturgy should display a stylistic unity, and its style should be that which is natural to the worshipping assembly.
There are few sights more alarming than a congregation of 80-year-olds interrupting BCP Holy Communion to wave their hands in the air for a couple of choruses of "Shine, Jesus, Shine".
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Well said, Adeodatus.
There is also the less than endearing CofE belief that if something is done 'sincerely' (whatever that means) it matters not how poor or downright bad the result, the 'sincerity' makes it OK. I still shudder at the memory of a violin/flute/piano/recorder combo 'sincerely' hacking their way through Sing of the Lord's goodness at quarter speed ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There are few sights more alarming than a congregation of 80-year-olds interrupting BCP Holy Communion to wave their hands in the air for a couple of choruses of "Shine, Jesus, Shine".
I think I might actually pay good money to see that!
Yesterday had me shuddering. I normally attend the more traditional 11 o'clock service at our local cathedral but yesterday went to the earlier service which is geared towards "younger" people. So in addition to the Kenyan liturgy we had a "Praise and worship" group who were teaching us some new songs.....now stylistically think Hillsong meets Africa, words a bit dubious but eclipsed by the caterwauling of the two solo singers...
I am happy to report that there really is a god because just as I was silently beseeching help, there was a power cut, thus solving the problem.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
Personally, I love the Matt Redman/Stuart Townend etc. stuff (and much traditional stuff too), but I too would recommend John Bell. He, and other people from the Iona Community, have written some lovely modern hymns, e.g. 'Heaven shall not wait'. Celtic-y, ballad-y, very singable melodies and great, often challenging, lyrics.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Find out what they are asking for. Mary had a boy Child is actually in the "Modern" rather than the "Charismatic" style wise.
Sometime in the 19th century church music basically split in two. There was Revivalist and Hymnody. The Charismatic is the current version of the revivalist stream and modern is the current version of Hymnody. Both are prolific.
If it was up to me I would distinguish in the Modern stream is pretty broad with at one end influenced strongly by Christian Folk (this tends to be Roman Catholic) and at the other end the modern hymn writers (tends to be non-conformists). These meld in a variety of ways so in the middle you get John Rutter who creates a lot of worship around the Eucharistic service but style is that of hymn writers. On the other hand you get John Bell who works predominantly in the Protestant service but whose style is much closer to the Christian folk. However to pick out these nuances you need to be consistently watching it as I have.
I suspect such nuances can also be found within the Charismatic flow. I just have not been watching it as carefully. I do know that you used to be able to distinguish here "Songs of Fellowship" Charismatics from "Mission Praise" Charismatics by the different songs they sang. However, now you have to add in "Spring Harvest" which produces a new song book every year (something that American Roman Catholics do as well).
Because there is this wealth of current writers (post 1960s) you really do need to find out what they mean by modern. It could be code for having music in a particular style. It could be code for wanting modern language. It could be code for a different theological emphasis within music. It could be code for a number of songs that they personally hold as special. The last is not wrong, hymns get part of their meaning from the associations they hold for us regardless of the words. A refusal on the grounds of new hymns being unfamiliar to the congregation is also about the association hymns have to people.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I'd endorse what Jengie says. An excellent summary.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Laurelin
Re the description of John Bell as Celtic-y and ballad-y.
First, precisely what do you class as a 'Celtic' sound? Or do you in fact mean Gaelic, rather than Celtic, bearing in mind the differences between the two Celtic strands?
Second, while some people may appreciate folk-type music, and so perhaps welcome the inclusion of a Christian strand of such during worship, others don't like it so why should they be subjected to it at church?
In any case, in England there is another strand of traditional music, as collected by Cecil Sharp (and others), and you can find quite a lot of this used by Ralph Vaughan Williams in The English Hymnal.
I'm not familiar with all of John Bell's oeuvre but he did use some established tunes - for example the French 15th century carol Noel Nouvelet is the tune for Jesus Christ is waiting and he also uses traditional Scots tunes such as Ye banks and braes - so its more the words you're signing up to, rather than the music.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
<snip>Second, while some people may appreciate folk-type music, and so perhaps welcome the inclusion of a Christian strand of such during worship, others don't like it so why should they be subjected to it at church?<snip>
This argument can, of course, be applied to almost any musical genre, simply by replacing the words "folk-type" with the genre of your choice.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
At a church I am somewhat familiar with, there is a constituency within the congregation that doesn't like traditional hymns, and would like "modern" worship band stuff. The priest looks at this, and says, not unreasonably, that they should include some of that style of music in the repertoire.
The traditional choir don't want to sing that style of music, but the members of the congregation who want a worship band aren't able to provide any musicians. So their "worship band" is the organist way outside his comfort zone on piano, someone with a guitar, and one poor singer.
And it's just bad.
What Leorning Cniht (great handle!) says gets at what I think are the main questions when considering a new style of worship music. Can we do it well? Do we have the resources to do it competently? and Is it true to who we are as a congregation? I've thought about the latter question when our all-white, middle class choir has sung spirituals like Were You There or Go Down Moses, for instance. Not that I'd expurgate them from our repertoire just because one or two people thought it came off as less than authentic, but a steady diet of it probably wouldn't work for our parish.
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Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
One option is for the church to produce a supplementary hymn book. You could ask for suggestions from the congregation as to what could go into it, which isn't already in the main hymn book the church uses. It could therefore be a whole congregation response, embracing all styles - if they feel they have all had an input, the project is more likely to have success than if just one or two people produce it. The congregation will then feel that they 'own' the book, rather like when a community get together to produce a community guide or recipe book.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
We once did 'Blessed be the name of the Lord' at an evening service I led there, though not well as I didn't gather the right musical resources.
Evening services would seem the logical place to start. Bell & Maule is probably more us than Redman. Bernadette Farrell is another possibility & things like 'Let us build a house/All are welcome'. As well as 'wrath of God' Townend uses non inclusive language eg man for people. Much as I dislike Kevin Mayhew's messing with the words of old hymns, there is no excuse for modern writers using this language.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Carys
Mankind (homo sapiens = wise/thinking man) is the correct term for human beings en masse.
Frankly I'd have thought anyone looking at the state of the Church, never mind the world, should have better things to worry about than so-called inclusive language. In any case, "inclusive" for whom? Many of us who value and treasure accuracy in language are fed up with the imposition of farcical right-on changes made for no good reason.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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frin
Drinking coffee for Jesus
# 9
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Posted
quote:
However, whilst I believe a number of people in the parish would be up for attending such a service, they would essentially know none of the hymns
My experience is that if its often on Songs of Praise then even people you think have never sung the song will know it.
The problem that leaves you and I with is that we are not the demographic who are watching Songs of Praise.
'frin
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"Even the crocodile looks after her young" - Lamentations 4, remembering Erin.
Posts: 4496 | From: a library | Registered: Apr 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
My experience with a bit of statistics based on one congregation over a two year period, I have evidence to suggest that another congregation is similar.
At the end of that we had sung about 200 different hymns, but at morning worship about 50% of hymns sung during any service were not on the list. So if hymns are chosen at random (they are not) then that means 400 hymns in repertoire. There is a tension between frequently repetitions of certain types of hymn (e.g. preparatory hymns are limited and thus overused) and the deliberate none repetition of hymns. Then you add the ones that enough people know in the congregation to sing but are not in the repertoire and we are probably talking in the range of 800 hymns.
In other words, congregations know a lot more hymns than most people think.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Let us not get bogged down in discussions about the appropriateness, or lack thereof, of inclusive language, please. Methinks t'would generate more heat than light.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
@Jengie: I doubt if that would be true of the "new" churches where I think the repertoire would tend to be more limited.
I suspect actually that the churches you have researched (being presumably MOTR URC) have in fact got a wider repertoire than most - e.g. a good basis of traditional "church" and "chapel" music, with a sprinkling of Graham Kendrick and Iona, and then those modern hymns by Brian Wren, Fred Kaan or even Stephen Pratt which IMO are not very widely sung outside URC/Methodist circles.
It's also true that, while people may know hymns, they will not necessarily like them!
[ 03. March 2015, 13:41: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
... There are few sights more alarming than a congregation of 80-year-olds interrupting BCP Holy Communion to wave their hands in the air for a couple of choruses of "Shine, Jesus, Shine".
Quote file! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There are few sights more alarming than a congregation of 80-year-olds interrupting BCP Holy Communion to wave their hands in the air for a couple of choruses of "Shine, Jesus, Shine".
One of my fears of growing old is that I'll always be expected to do the same old things in the same old way, or that I'll never allow myself to try anything different. Why should 80-year-olds be pigeonholed?
Ideally, everyone in the congregation will come to share the same vision - if this suggestion is indeed about a vision, and not just about personal preferences. But that will require good communication.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
First, precisely what do you class as a 'Celtic' sound? Or do you in fact mean Gaelic, rather than Celtic, bearing in mind the differences between the two Celtic strands?
I'd have thought there were more than two Celtic strands ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Gaelic, then.
quote:
Second, while some people may appreciate folk-type music, and so perhaps welcome the inclusion of a Christian strand of such during worship, others don't like it so why should they be subjected to it at church?
I was simply giving a suggestion which I genuinely thought might be useful to the OP. He was the one asking for advice on 'modern' music which he could pass on. Not sure how my post could be interpreted as subjecting anyone to anything. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
quote:
In any case, in England there is another strand of traditional music, as collected by Cecil Sharp (and others), and you can find quite a lot of this used by Ralph Vaughan Williams in The English Hymnal.
Vaughn Williams is a favourite of mine (although admittedly his symphonic pieces rather than his choral/folk music).
quote:
I'm not familiar with all of John Bell's oeuvre but he did use some established tunes - for example the French 15th century carol Noel Nouvelet is the tune for Jesus Christ is waiting and he also uses traditional Scots tunes such as Ye banks and braes - so its more the words you're signing up to, rather than the music.
I love that setting for 'Jesus Christ is waiting'.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
In any case, in England there is another strand of traditional music, as collected by Cecil Sharp (and others), and you can find quite a lot of this used by Ralph Vaughan Williams in The English Hymnal.
Agreed, but the music has been somewhat "tidied up" and "hymnodised" - it doesn't sound like folk music anymore.
I once wanted to sing "This is the truth sent from above" in a more rustic and robust style, my music director was appalled even though it must be more historically correct than the "church choir" approach.
(Admittedly (a) this doesn't have too much to do with the OP and (b) John Bell done something rather similar to RVW with Scottish folk tunes).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Cameron PM
Shipmate
# 18142
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Posted
We make a special effort to fit hymns that are metrically appropriate to O Waly, Waly and Ye Banks and Braes, or even Come by the Hills if the congregation can catch onto it; I don't know if that's really appropriate for Mass, however. Ag Criost and Siol is one of the regulars, but that's fairly traditional isn't it? I don't know if that's really appropriate for Mass, however.
"How Deep the Father's Love for Us" is one song that is a compromise for the lovers of traditional and contemporary music. It has a set metre, the tune is modern but as easy as "Slane"
fora choir/congregation to learn.
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Your call.
Posts: 59 | From: Talamh an Eisc | Registered: Jun 2014
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I suspect actually that the churches you have researched (being presumably MOTR URC) have in fact got a wider repertoire than most - e.g. a good basis of traditional "church" and "chapel" music, with a sprinkling of Graham Kendrick and Iona, and then those modern hymns by Brian Wren, Fred Kaan or even Stephen Pratt which IMO are not very widely sung outside URC/Methodist circles.
Find me a MOTR URC and you will have found something exceptionally unusual. No URC will classify itself as typical in my experience. One person who is Anglican in background and was on my support group commented about how different the two congregations were.
Let me say one was Charismatic/Pentecostal and one was traditional Presbyterian. There was one couple who had belonged to both and another who were close friends with members at the other congregation.
The breadth that comes from the fact that enough members have worshipped with other congregations, as well as the change in repertoire over the years.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Fair enough Jengie, but I think a lot of URCs - possibly in rural areas especially - may have folk who have worshipped there "man and boy" (or its feminine equivalent) and had little experience of other churches.
That's certainly true for many folk in our Eastern Synod, at least outside places such as Cambridge.
And I do think that there is a species of "modern traditional socially-aware hymnody" which one is far more likely to encounter in the URC and Methodist churches than elsewhere.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Hosting
Thanks to y'all for steering clear of the inclusive language debate. The babies Jesus, Egeria, Cranmer and Dix, as well as the babies Daly, Ruether, Johnson and Fiorenza were all twitching and pouting in anticipated unison.
/ Hosting
Well, we're truly sorry (cue Crocodile Tears) to have disappointed them.
Or else Hell is temporarily not accepting new entrants ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) .
We can be Good and Civilised sometimes.
[ 04. March 2015, 17:19: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Fair enough Jengie, but I think a lot of URCs - possibly in rural areas especially - may have folk who have worshipped there "man and boy" (or its feminine equivalent) and had little experience of other churches.
That's certainly true for many folk in our Eastern Synod, at least outside places such as Cambridge.
Yeah you get those as well. The thing is you actually quite a low exposure to a hymn in the congregation for it to be relatively easy for the congregation, say 10%. So the people who have been involved with Methodist or Pentecostal can quite easily bring quite a number of hymns with them.
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And I do think that there is a species of "modern traditional socially-aware hymnody" which one is far more likely to encounter in the URC and Methodist churches than elsewhere.
Time to introduce you to Erik Routley.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
No need - I know of him already (my organist is a big fan of his!)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
It's one of the Church of England's less charming heresies that it tends to see hymns and music as an interlude within the liturgy, rather than as an integral part of it. Ideally, the liturgy should display a stylistic unity, and its style should be that which is natural to the worshipping assembly.
There are few sights more alarming than a congregation of 80-year-olds interrupting BCP Holy Communion to wave their hands in the air for a couple of choruses of "Shine, Jesus, Shine".
I can't speak for others but I very carefully select hymns (now I have seized the role) that enhance and weave in and out of the themes explored in breaking open the word and in collects, propers, sermon and so on. Nothing clever about that - I mainly cheat with hymnary.org.
"Shine, Jesus, Shine" could occasionally be quite appropriate: we'll probably sing it at Pentecost. People may want to wave hands, sing dance whatever (though I doubt it!). All of this is simply personal choice. The critical issue is that the hymns be the twice prayed prayers they can be when woven tightly into the themes of the day.
What must never happen is that they become a token interlude sneered at by high brow choristers while they wait for the main game of polyphonic performance. That is the cycle I have had to break at my pad. It hasn't been easy.
[ 07. March 2015, 02:49: Message edited by: Zappa ]
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Let me relate 2 conversations I had. I had just led a morning service at a Salvation Army corps when an old trombone player (both were old) approached me and told me that he couldn't stand anything modern. "If it's not in the song book, I don't want it."
Shipmates, FYI the present Salvation Army song book was published in 1986 and includes not one 'modern' or 'contemporary' song because the head of our music department at the time hated anything 'mission praise'. I think the most modern chorus in the chorus section at the back of the book is 'He is Lord'. There are many SA songs, a lot of Moody & Sankey, more Wesley than the Methodists have, and historic Anglican and Catholic hymns. Oh, there's a Brian Wren song in there somewhere.
Anyway, to this man who said he hated modern songs, I replied that every song in his song book was, at one time, 'a new, contemporary song.'
That is something we need to remember, those of us who like the traditional stuff. What we really mean is we like the familiar stuff.
Anyway. From that conversation, I walked to a young man who proceeded to tell me that if a song was in the sing book, he couldn't worship with it. To him, only contemporary worship was valid. He quoted 'And can it be' and specifically the line 'Thine eye diffused a quickening ray...' and sneered 'what's that all about??' Now, knowing this young man was a student at university, all I can assume is that he didn't want to use his brain in worship and that as long as he was having fun with a meaningless emotional song, that was 'worship enough' for him.
(I need at this point to tell you before I go on that for a decade The Salvation Army had its own radical worship gathering, just like Spring Harvest, called Roots.)
Anyway, then I looked at this boy, who sang in the worship group we had (as well as the brass band) and asked him what the final song of the 'alternative worship service' had been the week before, which he had sung as part of the group, and had thoroughly enjoyed himself.
His reply was "Be thou my Vision".
"But Peter, that song is 1200 years old! It's not modern or contemporary!"
"AH, but we sang it at Roots!"
I just walked off.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
...laudably resisting the temptation to beat him about the head with your euphonium and then throw him through the bass drum...
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
...
I looked at this boy, who sang in the worship group we had (as well as the brass band) and asked him what the final song of the 'alternative worship service' had been the week before, which he had sung as part of the group, and had thoroughly enjoyed himself.
His reply was "Be thou my Vision".
"But Peter, that song is 1200 years old! It's not modern or contemporary!"
"AH, but we sang it at Roots!"
I just walked off.
Maybe the trick is to reinvent old songs by playing them in a more contemporary way. Some Christian rock bands seem to do this quite well, but I suppose it takes a good worship band to produce something appropriate for church worship.
I like this version of The Solid Rock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7oUbHBGOGs
And this version of Man of Sorrows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0h-6Q_KPPw
Churches of other cultural traditions often produce very lively versions of traditional hymns.
I think ministers should do more to encourage their congregations to come together to discuss what worship is really about. Everything a congregation does should be to promote and enhance its vision, not just to satisfy the personal tastes of a couple, or indeed all of its members.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
You might want to check out GIA publishers. They are an independent Roman Catholic publishing house. They produce liturgies and hymns more on a balanced level--which combines traditional with contemporary.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Woman at one of our local churches insists that the tempo for Father, we love you, we worship and adore you is c50 = crochet (in other words, less than half speed). You can imagine what that sort of nonsense achieves in the way of congregational participation
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Mmm, I think this may be a matter of "what one is used to".
As far as I know, the writer Terrye Coelho didn't put a metronome mark in (none of my three books have got one included, anyway). The first version of sheet music I came across on the Internet gave c70. Your book/s may have something different.
I learned this as a student, a loooong time ago (1970s). The preferred way of singing it then was unaccompanied, slowly, very quietly and even rapturously (eyes closed, head raised, arms outstretched). But the key thing to note is that the song never came by itself, rather it was usually sung as the rather intense "climbdown" following a connected sequence of some more lively worship songs, and was usually followed itself by extempore spoken expressions of praise.
So context is everything. YMMV, but I don't think your congregant is actually being as ridiculous as you might think.
FWIW, my present organist would play it quite a bit faster (although he'd prefer not to play it at all!)
[ 06. March 2015, 08:45: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
Just about anything by Marty Haugen or David Haas will be EXCELLENT ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Mmm, I think this may be a matter of "what one is used to".
Indeed. I just glanced at my copy of Mission Praise and it advises "quite slow" which matches with how I've experienced it in the past - often sung during the distribution at communion.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I believe in getting it over with as quickly as possible, as with spinach.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
the key thing to note is that the song never came by itself, rather it was usually sung as the rather intense "climbdown" following a connected sequence of some more lively worship songs, and was usually followed itself by extempore spoken expressions of praise. at all!)
sort of post-coital, then?
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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