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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Gathering for Worship
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I think if you really want silence, it's best to be alone. Getting together with a bunch of people, especially a group of people who belong to a very wordy religious culture like ours, isn't the best idea.
I do appreciate opportunities for private prayer in church, but this doesn't necessarily require silence. Calming music can help. Silence, though, seems to be difficult for churches to achieve. Even the clergy are nervous about keeping things silent for more than half a minute. Words, words, words - that's what we do.
Which, in my mind, is precisely why we need more silence in church. It can be uncomfortable, especially for those not used to it, but corporate silence can be very powerful. We lose the ability to worship together in silence at our peril; it's something the church should encourage rather than avoid.
We have silence at least twice during our typical service—after the corporate confession for individual confession and during the prayers of the people. Granted neither time is particularly long, maybe a minute each, though they have gradually gotten longer. Sometimes (I wish more regularly), there is silence after the sermon.
It's a start.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I had missed this thread, but the vicar and some leaders at our church have made a stab at encouraging silence during the organ prelude. (We are a talkative bunch. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ) The only problem seems to be that the vicar and the leaders are themselves repeat offenders among the chatterers. I am usually mildly amused by this but I do get a bit annoyed when suddenly they remember silence is important and shush others.
Me, I tend to remain silent in the ten minutes pre-liturgy, but I don't try to be a silence enforcer. Stern looks and shushes spoil my contemplation more than noise.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
When I go up to the cathedral, I am often amazed that the worst chatterers during the organ voluntary are the Cathedral staff (including musicians) themselves. It doesn't bother me, as such, but it is interesting to notice.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I agree about silence in worship. IME some clergy are scared of a silence, fearing a congregation will think something has gone wrong or the celebrant has lost his place (or lost the plot!).
When I arrived at my current place it was the norm for the organist to 'fill-in' between the gospel and the sermon (while the preacher went to the pulpit), at the end of the Offertory if necessary, and before a choir item at communion. I put a stop to this with the blessing of the PP, but visiting clergy seem to find it strange.
On the other hand, I allow 15 seconds at the Peace and then we begin the hymn; if nothing else, it has stopped members of the choir wandering around the church like 3rd rate politicians looking for someone with whom to shake hands.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Goodness, what sort of choir do you have? Every choir I've ever sang with has superglue applied to the choir stalls so that choristers do not move an inch from their allotted places at any point during the service (it wears off as the opening notes of the concluding Voluntary are played). Choristers wandering around during the Peace? Whatever next?!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
FWIW I can't imagine the Christians in first-century Jerusalem or Corinth quietly reflecting before the service, I'd guess that their culture was much noisier.
I seriously doubt that.
The NT doesn’t describe early Christian worship, but in Revelation it describes in some detail what early Christians imagined it was like. The four and twenty elders were not discussing the latest football match before casting down their golden crowns around the glassy sea.
St Paul is highly critical of a clique of well off Corinthian Christians who eat together before less well off Christians can join them.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Well, personally I prefer adhering to the old saw : "Before the service, talk to God; during the service, let God speak to you; after the service, talk to each other." And this is what we try to promote in my parish.
I've encountered:
quote:
Enter this door
as if the floor
within were gold;
and every wall
of jewels, all
of wealth untold;
as if a choir,
in robes of fire,
were singing here.
Nor shout
nor rush
but hush -
For God is here.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
I've encountered:
quote:
Enter this door
as if the floor
within were gold;
and every wall
of jewels, all
of wealth untold;
as if a choir,
in robes of fire,
were singing here.
Nor shout
nor rush
but hush -
For God is here.
Is there anywhere God isn't?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
There isn't, but there are sure places where we can be more aware of God than others.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
FWIW I can't imagine the Christians in first-century Jerusalem or Corinth quietly reflecting before the service, I'd guess that their culture was much noisier.
I seriously doubt that.
The NT doesn’t describe early Christian worship, but in Revelation it describes in some detail what early Christians imagined it was like. The four and twenty elders were not discussing the latest football match before casting down their golden crowns around the glassy sea.
St Paul is highly critical of a clique of well off Corinthian Christians who eat together before less well off Christians can join them.
The average church service doesn't strike me as something that's modelled on this passage in Revelation. Church elders falling on the floor isn't how things are done, for a start!
And people who arrive at church in a chatty mood aren't necessarily part of a clique. One might ask whether a visitor who enters a church where everyone is studiously avoiding contact and conversation feels more welcome than a visitor in a church where people are chatting. It depends on a range of factors, I imagine.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
There isn't, but there are sure places where we can be more aware of God than others.
Indeed, but the coincidence of such places with churches has not, IME, been of questionable statistical significance.
No, that's too smarmy by half. I'm not one for particularly being aware of God. Not enough to be sure he exists, for example. But where there have been those moments where I've had a glimpse of what God might mean if he exists, it's been as often not in a church as in one. And the moments I've been most convinced the whole thing is a load of supersitious hookum have been as much in churches as outside of them.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
There isn't, but there are sure places where we can be more aware of God than others.
Without a doubt, and I hope church is normally one of those places. I guess I just get a little leery of expressing this in ways that suggest God is particularly present in a church* rather than inviting us to be particularly aware of that presence in church.
* I do realize that the understanding may be different for churches that reserve the sacrament in the church with an understanding that Christ is truly present in the reserved sacrament.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Robin
Shipmate
# 71
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Church elders falling on the floor isn't how things are done, for a start!
They do (priest and altar party) at the start of the Good Friday liturgy, in some places. But it's a once a year occurrence, and a bit of a shock if you've not seen it before.
Robin
Posts: 263 | From: Aberdeen | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
But are they allowed to have a chat beforehand, or is everyone very quiet and solemn??
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Yes and yes.The solemnity of the day must affect your mood, surely?
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
On reflection, yes, Good Friday services are more solemn than normal ones. That's logical.
Those Christians who find Easter somewhat awkward (and there must be many, when you consider that Christmas is a more popular festival, despite being less important) probably stay away. This may reduce the sociability factor yet further.
[ 12. July 2015, 23:12: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Now you've got my interest. Why would Easter be awkward for people? Or did you mean Good Friday specifically, and not Easter Sunday?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Good Friday in particular, but although Easter Sunday is obviously more popular than Good Friday neither can compete with Christmas in terms of general interest.
It may be different in other countries, though.
[ 12. July 2015, 23:56: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
There isn't, but there are sure places where we can be more aware of God than others.
Our (transitional) minister usually starts her service with something like this "During the week, we have met God in the garden... down by the harbour... in the supermarket... but today we are gathered together to meet God as a family."
GG
[ 13. July 2015, 10:01: Message edited by: Galloping Granny ]
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Good Friday in particular, but although Easter Sunday is obviously more popular than Good Friday neither can compete with Christmas in terms of general interest.
It may be different in other countries, though.
I suspect Christmas outranks anything else because it has a) cute baby, b) gifts, c) ignore-able theology (you don't HAVE to discuss the incarnation at Jesus' birth, but it's pretty hard to ignore the resurrection on Easter. Particularly in church).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
There is a great difference between the Churches of the West and of the East.
In the churches of the East is Easter by far the most important Holy Day.
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Robert Kennedy
Posts: 220 | From: Dordrecht | Registered: Nov 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I'm sure it is in the Western Church, too (except for the extreme Protestant churches which don't "do" festivals at all).
But, in popular culture, Christmas is the more important.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I'm sure it is in the Western Church, too (except for the extreme Protestant churches which don't "do" festivals at all).
But, in popular culture, Christmas is the more important.
Yes, indeed. One of the things that has really happened since the splits of the sixteenth century, and in Britain especially since the mid nineteenth, is that Christmas has become ever more prominent in popular culture and other Christian festivals ever less so. Certainly the case for Easter, but also to some extent to feasts like Epiphany, which were traditionally more important that Christmas in some countries (and in a few places still are).
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
It's clear that popular culture has entered the church, though. Western churches do make more fuss over Christmas than Easter, principally because they know that Christmas is likely to be more appealing to people who rarely go to church, and especially to their children.
Children are another thing. How do churches cope with enforcing pre-service silence if there are quite a few children around? Is it only possible in churches where adults - and probably middle-aged or older adults - are in the vast majority?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's clear that popular culture has entered the church, though. Western churches do make more fuss over Christmas than Easter, principally because they know that Christmas is likely to be more appealing to people who rarely go to church, and especially to their children.
Children are another thing. How do churches cope with enforcing pre-service silence if there are quite a few children around? Is it only possible in churches where adults - and probably middle-aged or older adults - are in the vast majority?
i.e. nearly all of them. It may be one of the reasons why it's nearly all of them as well.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's clear that popular culture has entered the church, though. Western churches do make more fuss over Christmas than Easter, principally because they know that Christmas is likely to be more appealing to people who rarely go to church, and especially to their children.
Although a Minister of my acquaintance said, "It's the easiest time to get them to Church, and the hardest time to get them to listen to anything serious". Indeed, I've found definite resistance from some if one tries to prick the popular Christmas bubble. We are expected to be complicit in the sugery-sweetness.
quote:
Children are another thing. How do churches cope with enforcing pre-service silence if there are quite a few children around? Is it only possible in churches where adults - and probably middle-aged or older adults - are in the vast majority?
Yes; I would go so far as to say that having to "Shush" children before the service puts parents on edge and gives a very negative impression.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
PS (Missed edit window): I don't want children to shriek and shout; but I want them to be welcomed. Sadly some Christians are so concerned with their own pre-service silence that they can be very intolerant.
[ 14. July 2015, 12:26: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Our Place really has no problem with pre-service silence, largely because until 1030am (when the Eucharist begins) there's usually only a handful of The Usual Suspects present!
There may be a certain amount of meeting and greeting, but it's on a small scale, and, in any case, our organist starts playing quietly and meditatively about 5 minutes before kick-off.
It's not unknown for a good 50% of what is by any standards a small (yet perfectly-formed!) congregation to arrive at any time during the period between the Introit Hymn and the Gospel...... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Oh, and BTW, Small Christians are always very welcome, no matter how wriggly they might be....those of us at the altar are sometimes greatly diverted and amused (to the detriment of the flow of the liturgy) by the quiet and determined attempts of some Small Christians to toddle/run/crawl to the front without any of the Big Christians noticing...... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I think it's the middle-sized ones who find it the hardest, to be honest. They might be more capable of being quiet, but they're also (IME) building up a sense of not wanting to be there once they're big enough to not be.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Indeed, I've found definite resistance from some if one tries to prick the popular Christmas bubble. We are expected to be complicit in the sugery-sweetness.
People are resistant to having their children told that there's no fat man in a red suit climbing down the chimney (what does he do in a modern house with no fireplaces - squeeze through the flue of the combi boiler?)
I don't think you need to indulge in sugar, though - can't you talk about Christ, and not mention the fat man at all?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
PS (Missed edit window): I don't want children to shriek and shout; but I want them to be welcomed. Sadly some Christians are so concerned with their own pre-service silence that they can be very intolerant.
Silence takes a huge amount of defending, being so easily shattered, and is essential to many people. It is not a matter of being deliberately intolerant, but of having needs which noise denies.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
PS (Missed edit window): I don't want children to shriek and shout; but I want them to be welcomed. Sadly some Christians are so concerned with their own pre-service silence that they can be very intolerant.
Silence takes a huge amount of defending, being so easily shattered, and is essential to many people. It is not a matter of being deliberately intolerant, but of having needs which noise denies.
Then you have a problem of incompatible needs. How do you resolve that?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
PS (Missed edit window): I don't want children to shriek and shout; but I want them to be welcomed. Sadly some Christians are so concerned with their own pre-service silence that they can be very intolerant.
Silence takes a huge amount of defending, being so easily shattered, and is essential to many people. It is not a matter of being deliberately intolerant, but of having needs which noise denies.
Then you have a problem of incompatible needs. How do you resolve that?
I'm not sure. My point is that it is a joint problem, not one to be resolved exclusively by those in need of silence.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
To say two things.
1. I like silence; one thing which really annoys me is extraneous noise. So, for instance, I get very annoyed when I hear a loud car radio intruding on my thoughts, or my next-door neighbour yabbering on the phone in their garden. Modern society has got noisier and I deplore that.
2. Yet ... church worship is more about "us" than "me" (well, it's about God, of course, but you know what I mean!); it's a communal activity rather than a group of individuals coming together in a building yet merely having their own personal spiritual needs met.
So, what I think I am saying is that, while I am by no means against quiet before worship (and would encourage it), yet the needs of the community and the difficulties that others may face in maintaining that quiet must come above my own desire for silence. Indeed, by prioritising my own need I may be acting in a selfish and unchristian manner.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Do you think there's a difference between the experience of being silent on your own, and being silent as part of a group of people who are choosing to be silent?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Yes, I do. And that's the point, I think: is it right for a church to agree to impose its silence on all-comers? (Or for a clergy-person to decree it?)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Yes, Albertus I think there may be, just as all activity varies between individual and group practice.
I love being silent or at least peaceful both on my own and as part of a group. When I am in the UK I am part of a silent prayer group and I also like quiet reflection before a service. Here in Kenya the Anglican church still tries to practice quiet reflection before the start of the service.
But here's the thing. I am nourished by contemplative prayer. But I am also a mother and grandmother and I know that if the church is to have a future then people especially little ones need to know they are welcome regardless of their ability/ desire to practise silence.
Here we sing as the children go out to Sunday School
"Kanisa itajengwa na hawa watoto- the church will be built by these children"
There's no easy answer to this one. My preference would be to model the benefits of silence without excluding other people but quite how we do that I just don't know.I think our buildings can play a part in this though. I have never forgotten taking my little grand-daughter to visit the Cathedral where I worship when I am in the UK. She was awed by the space and beauty and of her own accord slowed her pace and lowered her tone the whole time we were in there. She then exuberantly leapt and ran as soon as we got outside into the cloisters.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, I do. And that's the point, I think: is it right for a church to agree to impose its silence on all-comers? (Or for a clergy-person to decree it?)
Or to agree to impose its lack of silence (I don't mean in chatting, I mean in e.g. hymn-singing) on all comers? Any collective activity such as worship is about a group of people agreeing to do this now and that later, and so on. And being silent can be part of that, as much as singing or praying or listening to someone else can. It may not have to be, but it can be.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Children are another thing. How do churches cope with enforcing pre-service silence if there are quite a few children around? Is it only possible in churches where adults - and probably middle-aged or older adults - are in the vast majority?
In my experience, pre-service chat and noise are much more of a problem with the over seventies than the under sevens. Children can make all sorts of noise for all sorts of reasons, but they are nothing compared to a chatty and slightly deaf older lady determined to share her weeks news with her friends.
I have tried many things, including ringing a sanctus bell, printed requests for quiet, invitations to 'prayerfully prepare for our service' and, on one occasion, from the chancel steps, "we are all ready to start now, Barbara, if that's OK with you." I'm not proud of that, it was born of frustration but it was rude and wrong. It was also totally ineffective. A tantrumming toddler would be much easier to manage.
Anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
I've encountered:
quote:
Enter this door
as if the floor
within were gold;
and every wall
of jewels, all
of wealth untold;
as if a choir,
in robes of fire,
were singing here.
Nor shout
nor rush
but hush -
For God is here.
Is there anywhere God isn't?
You haven't been to Oldham, have you?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, I do. And that's the point, I think: is it right for a church to agree to impose its silence on all-comers? (Or for a clergy-person to decree it?)
I have friends whose home custom is to remove their shoes inside the door. When I visit their homes, I follow their customs. It's simple courtesy.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, I do. And that's the point, I think: is it right for a church to agree to impose its silence on all-comers? (Or for a clergy-person to decree it?)
I have friends whose home custom is to remove their shoes inside the door. When I visit their homes, I follow their customs. It's simple courtesy.
Quite so.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Graven Image
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# 8755
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Posted
Before the service speak to the Lord.
During the service let the Lord speak to you.
After the service speak to each other.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anne:
In my experience, pre-service chat and noise are much more of a problem with the over seventies than the under sevens. Children can make all sorts of noise for all sorts of reasons, but they are nothing compared to a chatty and slightly deaf older lady determined to share her weeks news with her friends.
I have tried many things, including ringing a sanctus bell, printed requests for quiet, invitations to 'prayerfully prepare for our service' and, on one occasion, from the chancel steps, "we are all ready to start now, Barbara, if that's OK with you." I'm not proud of that, it was born of frustration but it was rude and wrong. It was also totally ineffective. A tantrumming toddler would be much easier to manage.
Anne
Maybe the Holy Spirit is hinting that you could trust your congregation a bit more. You could help your congregation to explore different ways of starting a church service.
For example, in Pentecostal churches hustle and bustle at the beginning are quite normal and accepted. Try encouraging this for a while, and see how people feel about it. If they hate it, they might be more appreciative of the traditional ways. But the decision would be something shared, rather than being imposed by the vicar.
If there are strong differences of opinion maybe you could try alternating services in which either calm or chatty introductions predominate.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by anne:
In my experience, pre-service chat and noise are much more of a problem with the over seventies than the under sevens. Children can make all sorts of noise for all sorts of reasons, but they are nothing compared to a chatty and slightly deaf older lady determined to share her weeks news with her friends.
I have tried many things, including ringing a sanctus bell, printed requests for quiet, invitations to 'prayerfully prepare for our service' and, on one occasion, from the chancel steps, "we are all ready to start now, Barbara, if that's OK with you." I'm not proud of that, it was born of frustration but it was rude and wrong. It was also totally ineffective. A tantrumming toddler would be much easier to manage.
Anne
Maybe the Holy Spirit is hinting that you could trust your congregation a bit more. You could help your congregation to explore different ways of starting a church service.
For example, in Pentecostal churches hustle and bustle at the beginning are quite normal and accepted. Try encouraging this for a while, and see how people feel about it. If they hate it, they might be more appreciative of the traditional ways. But the decision would be something shared, rather than being imposed by the vicar.
If there are strong differences of opinion maybe you could try alternating services in which either calm or chatty introductions predominate.
Or maybe older people are just ruder?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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SvitlanaV2
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Posted
Probably. But mainstream churches don't just turf out rude old people, so you have to use their behaviour as a 'teachable moment'. A chance to remember that God can work through all things.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
A chance to teach old people that it is never too late for them to elarn to behave better?
I agree with Pomona. IME old people can be staggeringly rude. Young people can be unthinkingly rude but are more likely to respond well when you point this out to them, if you do it properly. I have attended churches where there were several older members of the congregation who seemed to see any 'lull' in the service s an opportunity to chat.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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SvitlanaV2
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Posted
Well, if you can teach them successfully then there's no problem!
[ 21. July 2015, 22:35: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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