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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Gathering for Worship
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Good Friday in particular, but although Easter Sunday is obviously more popular than Good Friday neither can compete with Christmas in terms of general interest.
It may be different in other countries, though.
I suspect Christmas outranks anything else because it has a) cute baby, b) gifts, c) ignore-able theology (you don't HAVE to discuss the incarnation at Jesus' birth, but it's pretty hard to ignore the resurrection on Easter. Particularly in church).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
There is a great difference between the Churches of the West and of the East.
In the churches of the East is Easter by far the most important Holy Day.
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Robert Kennedy
Posts: 220 | From: Dordrecht | Registered: Nov 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I'm sure it is in the Western Church, too (except for the extreme Protestant churches which don't "do" festivals at all).
But, in popular culture, Christmas is the more important.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I'm sure it is in the Western Church, too (except for the extreme Protestant churches which don't "do" festivals at all).
But, in popular culture, Christmas is the more important.
Yes, indeed. One of the things that has really happened since the splits of the sixteenth century, and in Britain especially since the mid nineteenth, is that Christmas has become ever more prominent in popular culture and other Christian festivals ever less so. Certainly the case for Easter, but also to some extent to feasts like Epiphany, which were traditionally more important that Christmas in some countries (and in a few places still are).
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
It's clear that popular culture has entered the church, though. Western churches do make more fuss over Christmas than Easter, principally because they know that Christmas is likely to be more appealing to people who rarely go to church, and especially to their children.
Children are another thing. How do churches cope with enforcing pre-service silence if there are quite a few children around? Is it only possible in churches where adults - and probably middle-aged or older adults - are in the vast majority?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's clear that popular culture has entered the church, though. Western churches do make more fuss over Christmas than Easter, principally because they know that Christmas is likely to be more appealing to people who rarely go to church, and especially to their children.
Children are another thing. How do churches cope with enforcing pre-service silence if there are quite a few children around? Is it only possible in churches where adults - and probably middle-aged or older adults - are in the vast majority?
i.e. nearly all of them. It may be one of the reasons why it's nearly all of them as well.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's clear that popular culture has entered the church, though. Western churches do make more fuss over Christmas than Easter, principally because they know that Christmas is likely to be more appealing to people who rarely go to church, and especially to their children.
Although a Minister of my acquaintance said, "It's the easiest time to get them to Church, and the hardest time to get them to listen to anything serious". Indeed, I've found definite resistance from some if one tries to prick the popular Christmas bubble. We are expected to be complicit in the sugery-sweetness.
quote:
Children are another thing. How do churches cope with enforcing pre-service silence if there are quite a few children around? Is it only possible in churches where adults - and probably middle-aged or older adults - are in the vast majority?
Yes; I would go so far as to say that having to "Shush" children before the service puts parents on edge and gives a very negative impression.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
PS (Missed edit window): I don't want children to shriek and shout; but I want them to be welcomed. Sadly some Christians are so concerned with their own pre-service silence that they can be very intolerant.
[ 14. July 2015, 12:26: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Our Place really has no problem with pre-service silence, largely because until 1030am (when the Eucharist begins) there's usually only a handful of The Usual Suspects present!
There may be a certain amount of meeting and greeting, but it's on a small scale, and, in any case, our organist starts playing quietly and meditatively about 5 minutes before kick-off.
It's not unknown for a good 50% of what is by any standards a small (yet perfectly-formed!) congregation to arrive at any time during the period between the Introit Hymn and the Gospel...... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Oh, and BTW, Small Christians are always very welcome, no matter how wriggly they might be....those of us at the altar are sometimes greatly diverted and amused (to the detriment of the flow of the liturgy) by the quiet and determined attempts of some Small Christians to toddle/run/crawl to the front without any of the Big Christians noticing...... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I think it's the middle-sized ones who find it the hardest, to be honest. They might be more capable of being quiet, but they're also (IME) building up a sense of not wanting to be there once they're big enough to not be.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Indeed, I've found definite resistance from some if one tries to prick the popular Christmas bubble. We are expected to be complicit in the sugery-sweetness.
People are resistant to having their children told that there's no fat man in a red suit climbing down the chimney (what does he do in a modern house with no fireplaces - squeeze through the flue of the combi boiler?)
I don't think you need to indulge in sugar, though - can't you talk about Christ, and not mention the fat man at all?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
PS (Missed edit window): I don't want children to shriek and shout; but I want them to be welcomed. Sadly some Christians are so concerned with their own pre-service silence that they can be very intolerant.
Silence takes a huge amount of defending, being so easily shattered, and is essential to many people. It is not a matter of being deliberately intolerant, but of having needs which noise denies.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
PS (Missed edit window): I don't want children to shriek and shout; but I want them to be welcomed. Sadly some Christians are so concerned with their own pre-service silence that they can be very intolerant.
Silence takes a huge amount of defending, being so easily shattered, and is essential to many people. It is not a matter of being deliberately intolerant, but of having needs which noise denies.
Then you have a problem of incompatible needs. How do you resolve that?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
PS (Missed edit window): I don't want children to shriek and shout; but I want them to be welcomed. Sadly some Christians are so concerned with their own pre-service silence that they can be very intolerant.
Silence takes a huge amount of defending, being so easily shattered, and is essential to many people. It is not a matter of being deliberately intolerant, but of having needs which noise denies.
Then you have a problem of incompatible needs. How do you resolve that?
I'm not sure. My point is that it is a joint problem, not one to be resolved exclusively by those in need of silence.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
To say two things.
1. I like silence; one thing which really annoys me is extraneous noise. So, for instance, I get very annoyed when I hear a loud car radio intruding on my thoughts, or my next-door neighbour yabbering on the phone in their garden. Modern society has got noisier and I deplore that.
2. Yet ... church worship is more about "us" than "me" (well, it's about God, of course, but you know what I mean!); it's a communal activity rather than a group of individuals coming together in a building yet merely having their own personal spiritual needs met.
So, what I think I am saying is that, while I am by no means against quiet before worship (and would encourage it), yet the needs of the community and the difficulties that others may face in maintaining that quiet must come above my own desire for silence. Indeed, by prioritising my own need I may be acting in a selfish and unchristian manner.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Do you think there's a difference between the experience of being silent on your own, and being silent as part of a group of people who are choosing to be silent?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Yes, I do. And that's the point, I think: is it right for a church to agree to impose its silence on all-comers? (Or for a clergy-person to decree it?)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Yes, Albertus I think there may be, just as all activity varies between individual and group practice.
I love being silent or at least peaceful both on my own and as part of a group. When I am in the UK I am part of a silent prayer group and I also like quiet reflection before a service. Here in Kenya the Anglican church still tries to practice quiet reflection before the start of the service.
But here's the thing. I am nourished by contemplative prayer. But I am also a mother and grandmother and I know that if the church is to have a future then people especially little ones need to know they are welcome regardless of their ability/ desire to practise silence.
Here we sing as the children go out to Sunday School
"Kanisa itajengwa na hawa watoto- the church will be built by these children"
There's no easy answer to this one. My preference would be to model the benefits of silence without excluding other people but quite how we do that I just don't know.I think our buildings can play a part in this though. I have never forgotten taking my little grand-daughter to visit the Cathedral where I worship when I am in the UK. She was awed by the space and beauty and of her own accord slowed her pace and lowered her tone the whole time we were in there. She then exuberantly leapt and ran as soon as we got outside into the cloisters.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, I do. And that's the point, I think: is it right for a church to agree to impose its silence on all-comers? (Or for a clergy-person to decree it?)
Or to agree to impose its lack of silence (I don't mean in chatting, I mean in e.g. hymn-singing) on all comers? Any collective activity such as worship is about a group of people agreeing to do this now and that later, and so on. And being silent can be part of that, as much as singing or praying or listening to someone else can. It may not have to be, but it can be.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Children are another thing. How do churches cope with enforcing pre-service silence if there are quite a few children around? Is it only possible in churches where adults - and probably middle-aged or older adults - are in the vast majority?
In my experience, pre-service chat and noise are much more of a problem with the over seventies than the under sevens. Children can make all sorts of noise for all sorts of reasons, but they are nothing compared to a chatty and slightly deaf older lady determined to share her weeks news with her friends.
I have tried many things, including ringing a sanctus bell, printed requests for quiet, invitations to 'prayerfully prepare for our service' and, on one occasion, from the chancel steps, "we are all ready to start now, Barbara, if that's OK with you." I'm not proud of that, it was born of frustration but it was rude and wrong. It was also totally ineffective. A tantrumming toddler would be much easier to manage.
Anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
I've encountered:
quote:
Enter this door
as if the floor
within were gold;
and every wall
of jewels, all
of wealth untold;
as if a choir,
in robes of fire,
were singing here.
Nor shout
nor rush
but hush -
For God is here.
Is there anywhere God isn't?
You haven't been to Oldham, have you?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, I do. And that's the point, I think: is it right for a church to agree to impose its silence on all-comers? (Or for a clergy-person to decree it?)
I have friends whose home custom is to remove their shoes inside the door. When I visit their homes, I follow their customs. It's simple courtesy.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, I do. And that's the point, I think: is it right for a church to agree to impose its silence on all-comers? (Or for a clergy-person to decree it?)
I have friends whose home custom is to remove their shoes inside the door. When I visit their homes, I follow their customs. It's simple courtesy.
Quite so.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
Before the service speak to the Lord.
During the service let the Lord speak to you.
After the service speak to each other.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anne:
In my experience, pre-service chat and noise are much more of a problem with the over seventies than the under sevens. Children can make all sorts of noise for all sorts of reasons, but they are nothing compared to a chatty and slightly deaf older lady determined to share her weeks news with her friends.
I have tried many things, including ringing a sanctus bell, printed requests for quiet, invitations to 'prayerfully prepare for our service' and, on one occasion, from the chancel steps, "we are all ready to start now, Barbara, if that's OK with you." I'm not proud of that, it was born of frustration but it was rude and wrong. It was also totally ineffective. A tantrumming toddler would be much easier to manage.
Anne
Maybe the Holy Spirit is hinting that you could trust your congregation a bit more. You could help your congregation to explore different ways of starting a church service.
For example, in Pentecostal churches hustle and bustle at the beginning are quite normal and accepted. Try encouraging this for a while, and see how people feel about it. If they hate it, they might be more appreciative of the traditional ways. But the decision would be something shared, rather than being imposed by the vicar.
If there are strong differences of opinion maybe you could try alternating services in which either calm or chatty introductions predominate.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by anne:
In my experience, pre-service chat and noise are much more of a problem with the over seventies than the under sevens. Children can make all sorts of noise for all sorts of reasons, but they are nothing compared to a chatty and slightly deaf older lady determined to share her weeks news with her friends.
I have tried many things, including ringing a sanctus bell, printed requests for quiet, invitations to 'prayerfully prepare for our service' and, on one occasion, from the chancel steps, "we are all ready to start now, Barbara, if that's OK with you." I'm not proud of that, it was born of frustration but it was rude and wrong. It was also totally ineffective. A tantrumming toddler would be much easier to manage.
Anne
Maybe the Holy Spirit is hinting that you could trust your congregation a bit more. You could help your congregation to explore different ways of starting a church service.
For example, in Pentecostal churches hustle and bustle at the beginning are quite normal and accepted. Try encouraging this for a while, and see how people feel about it. If they hate it, they might be more appreciative of the traditional ways. But the decision would be something shared, rather than being imposed by the vicar.
If there are strong differences of opinion maybe you could try alternating services in which either calm or chatty introductions predominate.
Or maybe older people are just ruder?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Probably. But mainstream churches don't just turf out rude old people, so you have to use their behaviour as a 'teachable moment'. A chance to remember that God can work through all things.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
A chance to teach old people that it is never too late for them to elarn to behave better?
I agree with Pomona. IME old people can be staggeringly rude. Young people can be unthinkingly rude but are more likely to respond well when you point this out to them, if you do it properly. I have attended churches where there were several older members of the congregation who seemed to see any 'lull' in the service s an opportunity to chat.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Well, if you can teach them successfully then there's no problem!
[ 21. July 2015, 22:35: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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