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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: World faiths' scriptures in Christian worship
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Josiah Crawley
Apprentice
# 18481
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Posted
At the Cathedral of St John the Divine, Upper Eastside NY, last Sunday in the big St Francis Day
Eucharist after the OT reading and before the Gospel there was a reading from the Quran, about creation.
It seemed to me good to include this but I wondered what others thought.
Is it getting more common now to include non Christian world faiths scriptures in Christian liturgy? What are your thoughts.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The Apostle Paul was quite happy to include quotes from non-Jewish philosophers and poets in his speeches and letters. I don't know if it's becoming more common, but it's a practice with significant history.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The Apostle Paul was quite happy to include quotes from non-Jewish philosophers and poets in his speeches and letters. I don't know if it's becoming more common, but it's a practice with significant history.
Paul did so in order to make a point about Christ. It was in the context of addressing - through preaching or proclamation - some of the issues of the day.
It doesn't look like that in this instance - it seems as if the reading was treated as being of equal value to those from the bible and therefore not a good thing at all.
[ 08. October 2015, 04:39: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Well, it's difficult to know from what's been posted what status of authority the reading was given. Placing it between the OT and Gospel readings would (in many places) give it a status similar to the Epistle (especially if the congregation go and say "the word of the Lord" afterwards as many might do out of habit). However, if it was preceded by a statement making it clear that this was not a reading from Scripture and was included for a specific purpose but was not recognised as authoritative then that would be different.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Oh, and of course, the reading would have been followed by a sermon at some point. So, it could be in the context of addressing - through preaching or proclamation - some of the issues of the day.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I really think you have to take into account the effect such a reading will have on those listening. Is it going to scandalize, freak out, or mislead one of "the least of these my brothers"? If so, don't do it. It's that principle Paul brought up using the example of food sacrificed to idols. If it makes my brother or sister stumble, I need to avoid it instead of asserting my rights, wishes, or creativity.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
I find myself in cautious and uncharacteristic ![[Biased]](wink.gif) agreement with ExclamationMark. If we are losing the liturgical and theological distinctiveness of the Judaeo-Christian scriptural witness and the unique event to which Christianity traditionally believes that witness testifies, then we are in deep syncretistic doodoos.
Context of course is everything. This Sunday night I will be hosting a liturgy for Amnesty International, recognizing the plight of refugees, and inviting those who care of all faiths and none to participate in a ritual of concern. I will use Judaeo-Christian resources, atheistic resources, other faith resources. There will be no affirmation of Christian faith, but a multi-hoped affirmation of energy. Those who participate will I hope go back to their traditions energised for the fight.
But it is not pretending to be a liturgy affirming the centrality of the Cross. That will come after I return to my tradition, energised by shared aims and the knowledge that my God is an inclusive God. But it will come, because it is "in the Cross of Christ I glory", and more importantly "in the Cross of Christ I glory", and "in the cross of Christ I glory."
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I agree with Exclamation Mark. This was at the Eucharist, which proclaim's the death of Jesus until he comes again. It is difficult to imagine how inserting into the liturgy a reading from a book sacred to a religion that denies Christianity and proclaims itself as a replacement to it, can be anything other than misleading, a confusing nod towards syncretism and an endorsement of the widespread belief that one religion is as good as any other.
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Corvo
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# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I agree with Exclamation Mark. This was at the Eucharist, which proclaim's the death of Jesus until he comes again. It is difficult to imagine how inserting into the liturgy a reading from a book sacred to a religion that denies Christianity and proclaims itself as a replacement to it, can be anything other than misleading, a confusing nod towards syncretism and an endorsement of the widespread belief that one religion is as good as any other.
I think this is the key point. The Vedas and pre-Christian Jewish and Greek texts might be thought of as in some ('logos spermatikos') way pointing to Christianity, but the Koran expilcitly contradicts our faith.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Does anyone know what kind of service it was, when in the service the Quran reading occurred, and in what context (how was it introduced, was there a liturgical response to it, how was it listed in the service leaflet, was any explanation of it and the reason for using it given later in the service, etc.)
Furthermore, was it to any degree an Interfaith service? Did it have the participation of ministers of other faiths?
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Does anyone know what kind of service it was, when in the service the Quran reading occurred, and in what context (how was it introduced, was there a liturgical response to it, how was it listed in the service leaflet, was any explanation of it and the reason for using it given later in the service, etc.)
Furthermore, was it to any degree an Interfaith service? Did it have the participation of ministers of other faiths?
The OP was quite clear: "the big St Francis Day
Eucharist after the OT reading and before the Gospel there was a reading from the Quran, about creation."
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Actually that doesn't really answer many of the questions. Almost certainly not an inter-faith event if a Eucharistic service. But, what words were said in relation to the reading? Even, what were the OT and Gospel that were read?
St Francis day, I can see that strongly focussed on care for creation. Does the Koranic creation account come across much more strongly about creation care than the Judeo-Christian accounts?
We needed an MWer there to give us the details ....
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
There are no circumstances when another religion's sacred text should be read out in a Christian service, especially in a Eucharist. (I'm not a fan of "inter-faith worship", but I suppose in such contexts it would be acceptable. A Eucharist cannot be inter-faith, however.)
Yes, there are all the objections stated upthread. More importantly, however, it is fantastically rude to Muslims to read the Koran in a Christian service. It is not our text: it is theirs. By reading it in the context of Christian worship, we would be appropriating it and claiming it as supporting our faith. That is misleading from the point of Christian doctrine and rude towards Islam.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The best Google is giving me is news reports on the animal procession and blessing that was also part off the service. So, a long way from being a traditional solemn Eucharist, whatever texts were read.
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
This was a celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the first part of which is called the Liturgy of the Word for a reason. Such a practice makes that reason horribly unclear to those present.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
There are no circumstances when another religion's sacred text should be read out in a Christian service
None at all? Not even when that text expresses divine truth better than our own? And, where do you draw the line? Remembrance Day services have almost always included the reading of war poets, expressing profound truth about the sacrifice and horror of war. If those fail to express Christian hope, do they count as non-Christian texts?
Was I a dreadful person when at one point last year I quoted Queen in a sermon? Or, as I've done on two occasions when given Matthew 5, Monty Python?
quote:
It is not our text: it is theirs. By reading it in the context of Christian worship, we would be appropriating it and claiming it as supporting our faith.
If the message of the texts is something that is common to both faiths, does it make a difference? If we are uniting on at least one point in common, is that not a good thing?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
This was a celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the first part of which is called the Liturgy of the Word for a reason. Such a practice makes that reason horribly unclear to those present.
But, as I find I'm frequently told, the Word isn't the Bible it's Christ. Even Evangelicals like myself don't preach the Bible, we preach Christ. If putting a reading in from a non-Biblical text gives people a jolt to realise that, then in itself that's done a good thing.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Basilica: More importantly, however, it is fantastically rude to Muslims to read the Koran in a Christian service.
This would be the most important hesitation for me too.
I'm from an alt.worship context, so we don't really have a formal setting for our readings. We might not even have them in a service. It is very normal for us to draw from various sources: Jewish mystics, Humanist philosophers ... Sometimes the Qu'ran also comes into that, if we feel that it's interesting to consider what Muslims may have to say on a certain subject.
It is important to me that this is done with respect to Islam. What probably helps is that we don't really have a "they deny our faith" mindset.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Was I a dreadful person when at one point last year I quoted Queen in a sermon? Or, as I've done on two occasions when given Matthew 5, Monty Python?
I quote all kinds of things in sermons (though I've never used Monty Python yet... intrigued!). Pope Francis quoted the Sufi mystic Ali al-Khawas in his last encyclical.
But there's a big difference between quoting something in a homily, and proclaiming it in the place that your tradition of worship reserves for the proclamation of Sacred Scripture. Subverting the structure makes a statement which is simply false for Christians: the Quran (much as it may contain "elements of truth and sanctification"*) is not the inspired Word of God.
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*Lumen Gentium 8.2
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
We've had the account of the annunciation from the Koran at our Carol service a couple of times. It was read both in Arabic and in English translation by a one of the local Muslim leaders, and he was accompanied by a number of members of his mosque.
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
There are no circumstances when another religion's sacred text should be read out in a Christian service
None at all? Not even when that text expresses divine truth better than our own? And, where do you draw the line? Remembrance Day services have almost always included the reading of war poets, expressing profound truth about the sacrifice and horror of war. If those fail to express Christian hope, do they count as non-Christian texts?
Was I a dreadful person when at one point last year I quoted Queen in a sermon? Or, as I've done on two occasions when given Matthew 5, Monty Python?
I deliberately referred to "another religion's sacred text", not non-Christian texts. Monty Python is fine; the Qur'an is not.
quote:
quote:
It is not our text: it is theirs. By reading it in the context of Christian worship, we would be appropriating it and claiming it as supporting our faith.
If the message of the texts is something that is common to both faiths, does it make a difference? If we are uniting on at least one point in common, is that not a good thing?
Perhaps, if it was done with the consent of a Muslim community, in the context of an inter-faith service. All this is doing is appropriating another religion's texts to make your own point. When you use a text in worship, you are giving it a context and connotations and you have to be sympathetic to the text and to the community to which it belongs.
In an academic article, or a church newsletter, or maybe even a homily, it would be appropriate. But not reading it out as if it were a text from the Bible.
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
This was a celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the first part of which is called the Liturgy of the Word for a reason. Such a practice makes that reason horribly unclear to those present.
But, as I find I'm frequently told, the Word isn't the Bible it's Christ. Even Evangelicals like myself don't preach the Bible, we preach Christ. If putting a reading in from a non-Biblical text gives people a jolt to realise that, then in itself that's done a good thing.
The term Word has more than meaning in a Christian context (much like the word saint). The context in which it is used in the name of the Liturgy of the Word is a scriptural one, and that is the focus of the liturgy at that point.
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Josiah Crawley
Apprentice
# 18481
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Posted
Wow! I didn't think my post would get so much interest! Thanks for those comments and thoughts.
I've got in front of me the order of service from the cathedral of Saint John the Divine.
Here is a quote from Dean Kowalski in the introduction to the liturgy booklet:
"Each year the Earth Mass and Blessing of the Animals is placed under the roof of this Cathedral as a way of re-convening a conversation about stewardship of creation. There are many ways - through liturgies, art and other forms of discourse - we endeavor to call people together across faiths and cultures to the kind of advocacy that builds more just societies."
I guess its in that spirit the reading from the Quran in the liturgy should be understand.
Now that reading came After a reading from the book of Genesis (1.20-25)
It was headed 'A Reading from the Quran' (Sura ya-Sin 36: 81-83). Like the first reading from Genesis the reading ended with the Lector saying
"Hear what the Spirit is saying to God's people"
and all said "Thanks be to God"
Then there was the reading of the Holy Gospel.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
I quote all kinds of things in sermons (though I've never used Monty Python yet... intrigued!).
Well, the Gospel was the Beattitudes. And, "Blessed are the cheesemakers" was just asking to be quoted. More seriously, "blessed are the Meek! That's nice". I wanted to make the point that we can so easily turn the Beattitudes into something "nice", whereas they're a challenge to live a very difficult life following Christ, and form an introduction to the Sermon on the Mount which is also a challenging passage and not as "nice" as often made out. If it was a call to be "nice" then there wouldn't be that part about being persecuted for following Christ.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
I deliberately referred to "another religion's sacred text", not non-Christian texts. Monty Python is fine; the Qur'an is not.
Though, some people take their Monty Python very seriously. It even makes an entry into sacred-texts.com - although I would say that Life of Brian deserves that honour ahead of Holy Grail if there was to be just one entry.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josiah Crawley:
Here is a quote from Dean Kowalski in the introduction to the liturgy booklet:
"Each year the Earth Mass and Blessing of the Animals is placed under the roof of this Cathedral as a way of re-convening a conversation about stewardship of creation. There are many ways - through liturgies, art and other forms of discourse - we endeavor to call people together across faiths and cultures to the kind of advocacy that builds more just societies."
I guess its in that spirit the reading from the Quran in the liturgy should be understand.
It clearly isn't your average Eucharist. But, even without that introductory text that's fairly obvious - there are times when it seems that the blessing of the animals is taking centre stage, it's certainly about the only thing that most people remark upon in the media. It has a bit of a Circus feel to it, with the press present to get their pictures of robed priests and choristers with the llama or pig, but not a word about the sermon appearing in the report.
Now, I know some people will raise their hands in horror at the mere thought of a Eucharistic service being used as a circus show. I have my sympathies with that view, but also I've no personal problems with that providing the service isn't just a circus show.
Being particularly open to the richness other cultures and faiths can bring to a common endeavour within the context of an occasional act of Christian worship also strikes me as something good - although I would be uncomfortable if that was the weekly fare.
quote:
Now that reading came After a reading from the book of Genesis (1.20-25)
It was headed 'A Reading from the Quran' (Sura ya-Sin 36: 81-83). Like the first reading from Genesis the reading ended with the Lector saying
"Hear what the Spirit is saying to God's people"
and all said "Thanks be to God"
Then there was the reading of the Holy Gospel.
If, as appears, there was no distinction made between the reading from Genesis and the reading from the Quran then something does seem amiss. Personally, if it was appropriate to include a reading from something other than the Bible I would preface it a bit more clearly - something about hearing Gods call for care of creation from our own faith tradition and also from the faith tradition of another faith where we agree on this point.
I like "Hear what the Spirit is saying to God's people", because the Spirit can speak through many ways and not just the words of the Bible. Are those the regular words to conclude a reading at St Johns? Or were they specifically chosen for this occasion?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Josiah Crawley
Apprentice
# 18481
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Posted
I guess this event at St John the Divine encourages us to think about other times and places where it could be appropriate to consider incorporating world faiths' scriptures in Christian worship (subject to some of the safeguards people have indicated).
Someone has already mentioned a Christmas carol service.
An act of worship on the theme of World Peace could be another opportunity.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Well, if the reading was in English translation rather than Arabic, the folks at St. John the Divine can always cop out by saying the reading technically wasn't from the actual Quran, and they'd be right, too.
[ 09. October 2015, 19:25: Message edited by: stonespring ]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
If you attend a church with highly intellectual, right-on priests I suppose you can expect this sort of thing sometimes. Individuals know their reasons for choosing a particular church, and the trade-off is letting some things slide.
It would be more interesting if the mosque down the road were known to do readings from the Bible occasionally. The Nation of Islam does this, to judge from videos of Louis Farrakhan, but I can't imagine the average imam dipping into the gospels every now and then, certainly not during the most significant religious rituals. But with religion you never know.
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Josiah Crawley
Apprentice
# 18481
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Posted
If the spirit is speaking beyond the words in the Christian Bible then I think its good in worship and teaching to draw this out.
So, then, maybe more clergy need to be right on with this ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I guess Jane or John Doe presented with readings from different faiths' scriptures would have no objection to this enrichment from time to time.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josiah Crawley:
If the spirit is speaking beyond the words in the Christian Bible then I think its good in worship and teaching to draw this out.
So, then, maybe more clergy need to be right on with this
I guess Jane or John Doe presented with readings from different faiths' scriptures would have no objection to this enrichment from time to time.
"If" is a big question. Best to approach it as Paul does - not with uncritical inclusion - but with robust debate and in context of what Christ says.
You can be so "right on" that you're actually "far off." It's probably a desire to seem radical and edgy but it's about as radical as putting full fat milk into a skinny latte.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
"If" is a big question.
Actually, that "if" isn't a big question at all. The Spirit does speak beyond the words in the Christian Bible. It's his job. "the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things ... I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth." (John 14:26, 16:12-13).
The big question is how we discern whether we're listening to the Spirit of God or some other spirit.
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Josiah Crawley
Apprentice
# 18481
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Posted
Thanks for that, Alan.
I found that a very helpful insight on this.
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Josiah Crawley
Apprentice
# 18481
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Posted
Thanks for that, Alan.
I found that a very helpful insight on this.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
I often find it helpful to turn things around and think about whether the local Jewish or Muslim community would similarly use a Christian text in a service, whether regular or special, and I usually think not.
I've walked out of an Episcopal parish church on a Sunday morning when I looked at the leaflet to find out it would be a Rosh Hashanah liturgy of some sort. Doubting the synagogue would be doing a Holy Eucharist, I left and made it to the Roman Catholic parish where the readings of the day were proclaimed and preached.
Generally I think it's best to major in what we're best at, our own tradition. Not that others shouldn't be looked at in classes or personal study, but when it's time for the rites of Holy Church, I'd rather stick to the texts given us by Holy Church.
[ 11. October 2015, 03:25: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
Oblatus wrote:
quote:
I've walked out of an Episcopal parish church on a Sunday morning when I looked at the leaflet to find out it would be a Rosh Hashanah liturgy of some sort. Doubting the synagogue would be doing a Holy Eucharist, I left and made it to the Roman Catholic parish where the readings of the day were proclaimed and preached.
So the issue is tit-for-tat for you? In other words, if a synagogue DID decide to host a Holy Eucharist, then the Rosh Hashanah liturgy would be okay?
Personally, I would think the idea of appropriating non-Christian scriptures and ceremonies is that you see something valuable in them. Not that you're trying to repay the open-ness of other faiths.
When I attended a Unitarian service in Canada a few weeks back, the minister approvingly quoted Pope Francis at a fairly prominent place in his sermon on the Syrian refugee crisis, even displaying a photo of the Pope on the wall. I gotta say, my first instinct was not to say "Hey, I don't think the Pope would quote and display photos of Emerson during HIS sermons!"
I'm not saying everyone has to be as syncretic as the Unitarians are, just that, in deciding what degree of syncretism to tolerate, the criteria should be the value of the appropriated traditions to your own faith. Not some sort of resentful "Well, if they're not gonna honour us, why should we honour them?" attitude.
[ 11. October 2015, 05:45: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I wouldn't want (say) the Qu'ran read as if it had equal status with the Bible, followed by "This is the Word of the Lord". But if one was preaching on a subject such as the Creation or even the birth of Christ, such a reading could provide an interesting contrast with the Christian one. I quite often use secular texts or poems to highlight the theme of our worship, and this would be no different.
Incidentally, we do have quite a good relationship with our local Mosque. Some years ago they invited us to observe lunchtime prayers (not on a Friday though) and we put on a demonstration service for them, complete with hymns, responsive psalm, Bible readings etc. We told them that they weren't expected to join in the responses but, much to our surprise, they did!
P.S. I've quoted from both Popes Francis and Benedict in my sermons!
[ 11. October 2015, 07:34: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I wouldn't want (say) the Qu'ran read as if it had equal status with the Bible, followed by "This is the Word of the Lord". But if one was preaching on a subject such as the Creation or even the birth of Christ, such a reading could provide an interesting contrast with the Christian one. I quite often use secular texts or poems to highlight the theme of our worship, and this would be no different.
Quoted in a sermon, yes, absolutely appropriate and admirable. Read out as a lesson, no.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Oblatus wrote:
quote:
I've walked out of an Episcopal parish church on a Sunday morning when I looked at the leaflet to find out it would be a Rosh Hashanah liturgy of some sort. Doubting the synagogue would be doing a Holy Eucharist, I left and made it to the Roman Catholic parish where the readings of the day were proclaimed and preached.
So the issue is tit-for-tat for you? In other words, if a synagogue DID decide to host a Holy Eucharist, then the Rosh Hashanah liturgy would be okay?
No, it wouldn't. I'd find both appropriations, um, inappropriate. My problem was with the fact that a main Sunday service in a parish church was not even a liturgy of the Episcopal Church. My thoughts about the synagogue were more like, "This service from another religion would be unthinkable in the synagogue, or mosque, or Eastern Orthodox church; why do we think it's just fine here?" Do it as part of a class on Jewish liturgy, not as the main Sunday service of the parish.
[ 11. October 2015, 13:34: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Incidentally, we do have quite a good relationship with our local Mosque. Some years ago they invited us to observe lunchtime prayers (not on a Friday though) and we put on a demonstration service for them, complete with hymns, responsive psalm, Bible readings etc. We told them that they weren't expected to join in the responses but, much to our surprise, they did!
The interesting question is whether they would have approved if you'd started preaching from the Quran as a part of your Christian service. Maybe you could ask them about this at your next interfaith meeting, or whenever.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Is it any of their business? I mean, the Koran is in the public domain. If Muslims started preaching from the New Testament I might say 'hang on, I don't think you're using that properly, i don't think you get the context' or whatever, but I don't think I'd say I disapproved as such.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Incidentally, we do have quite a good relationship with our local Mosque. Some years ago they invited us to observe lunchtime prayers (not on a Friday though) and we put on a demonstration service for them, complete with hymns, responsive psalm, Bible readings etc. We told them that they weren't expected to join in the responses but, much to our surprise, they did!
The interesting question is whether they would have approved if you'd started preaching from the Quran as a part of your Christian service.
The thought never entered our mind - nor theirs!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Is it any of their business? I mean, the Koran is in the public domain. If Muslims started preaching from the New Testament I might say 'hang on, I don't think you're using that properly, i don't think you get the context' or whatever, but I don't think I'd say I disapproved as such.
Well, the main reason why the Quran would be of interest to clergymen is precisely because there are still are people (i.e. Muslims) who believe it to be an inspired and sacred work. Similarly, atheist artists and novelists are still fascinated by the Bible because it retains a religious hold on Christians in Western culture.
IOW, these texts may have a life beyond that invested in them by their religious adherents, but the 'life beyond' largely relies upon the prevalence of that religious power. (Dead religions have a certain cultural appeal, but not to the same extent, ISTM).
That being the case, I do think we all have a right to approve or disapprove of what other people are doing with our holy texts. Whether atheist novelists or liberal Episcopalians etc. should care is another matter. But the latter surely see themselves as caring, considerate people, so they should give it some thought.
[ 11. October 2015, 21:15: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I'm sorry, I'm probably very dense but I don't really understand what you mean. But no matter, as I shan't pursue it further.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The point is, I do think it's 'their business'. Similarly, when atheists use the Bible for their own ends that feels rather like 'my business'.
But I may be alone in that. No matter. As you were.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
You can approve or disapprove basically anything, as you choose. How could anyone stop you? The real question is, can you (may you) enforce your disapproval.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Now that reading came After a reading from the book of Genesis (1.20-25)
It was headed 'A Reading from the Quran' (Sura ya-Sin 36: 81-83). Like the first reading from Genesis the reading ended with the Lector saying
"Hear what the Spirit is saying to God's people"
and all said "Thanks be to God"
Then there was the reading of the Holy Gospel.
I hate to sound all Fundamentalist but surely we draw the line somewhere. That's outrageous blasphemy-or did I miss the bit where the Triune God speaks through the Quran? Nope, nope nope. I'd be happy to attend an interfaith service and no problems with hearing the Quran read there but no way I'd respond "Thanks be to God" at the end. If it was relevant I've got no issues with reading the Quran in a Christian service BUT reading it as scripture, that's a betrayal of Christ IMO.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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