Thread: Holy Week begins Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=030462
Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on
:
So, how did Palm Sunday go for everyone yesterday? I was celebrating in one of our dorm chapels in the evening, and it did feel odd to hear a Palm Sunday procession passing by in the morning yet not celebrate till the evening.
We just did the entrance gospel at the back of the church, then I blessed palms as I processed in, and I did miss having everyone in a procession, even if just from the back of the church. We had good readers for the Passion, though, and I always find taking the Christus part very moving. They had the congregation take the crowd parts. I've never been sure intellectually if I like this, but it does seem to work. In the homily, I did encourage people to think about who they identified with in the Passion, and that it probably wouldn't be the crowd for most of us.
Chrism Mass tonight, and then the week continues!
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
At Compline, our usual, we had a visiting choir of unrobed adults, which is unusual for Compline and for Canterbury Cathedral.
Many of the services happen in the Quire, where we sit in the Victorian wooden stalls, and the choir usually processes in from the back. This time, the choir started singing from the back but moved along the outside of the pews emerging by the High Altar.
I'm not exactly sure what that space is called behind the stalls, but it has amazing acoustics, so there was a wall of sound as the choir moved along.
We also had a reflection, which was thinking about the entrance to Jerusalem and how there was an almost-but-not-quite-as-expected sense of the King taking his rightful place in the City of God.
In all, it was a very uplifting but very odd Palm Sunday service with a considerable element of mournfulness about it.
Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on
:
We blessed the palms and then processed with incense and music and hosannahs through the streets down to the little church by the sea.
For a Baptist it was a very Catholic kind of experience, but very moving, with all the bells and smells.
So begins my favorite time of the year.
I love Holy Week!!!
AFF
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
We always do The Cry of the Whole Congregation by Walter Wangerin -- I wonder if anyone else does? We've used it for at least a decade, and I am rather bored with it. (Not that anyone ever asks me.)
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
:
This was my second Palm Sunday here at the abbey and this year I was more attuned and able to worship. (Last year I was too green and afraid I'd screw something up.)
Palms were blessed in the courtyard and procession wound its way to the church, with cantors singing a psalm-ish sort of thing, accompanied by hand chimes and refrain for everybody. (It was much better than this makes it sound!)
Once the ministers had gotten into the nave i struck up 'All Glory Laud -- organ on the refrain, TTBB cantors singing the stanzas. Excellent, though we only sang 2 stanzas.
Responsorial psalm was Gelineau, which didn't work!
Latin schola sang 'Christus factus est' before the Passion.
Passion, sung by the traditional 3 'deacons' plus 5 additional voices for the crowd parts. Setting was composed by one of the monks and was a knockout! Varying compositional styles captured the shifting moods of the text.
3 stanzas of 'O Sacred Head' followed, and I used the elaborate JSB harmonization from the 'Saint Matthew Passion' for the last one, with the Virgil Fox 'dying organ' effect at the end -- reducing the registration stop by stop through the last two lines, ending with just the softest celestes. The community and the many visitors caught the idea and went along with it!
i'd give it 8 out of 10, says I as who shouldn't(!)
Posted by BabyWombat (# 18552) on
:
All 18 of us at the principal service fit comfortably into the library where I blessed palms (no holy water, no incense). Then we processed in silence the 20 feet or so down the hall to the narthex where I said the appropriate collect. The organist then began All Glory Laud and Honor and we processed into the church. I narrated the Passion read in parts – almost everyone had a part to read! Then I moved into assisting priest role and my priest colleague celebrated the Eucharist. Silent procession out, no postlude, no coffee hour.
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
:
We had the Palm Sunday liturgy yesterday morning, and a funeral in the afternoon for a 97-year-old parish woman who'd died earlier in the week.
Shortly after I woke up yesterday I received the news that our Senior Warden had died unexpectedly. I did my best to inform our people before the service, since I didn't want them to find out via the bidding of intentions in the Mass.
Palm Sunday started rocky, but soon hit its stride. My acolyte read the OT lesson from Exodus, and then seemed about to go on and read the Gradual afterward, but wound up righting himself. We had the full blessing and liturgy of the palms (essentially amounting to a separate Liturgy of the Word) before the procession, which led right into the Mass--"Glory, laud & honor" of course, in red vestments, switching to violet once we arrived back at the altar. Incense, too.
I chanted the Passion (St Matthew) with the choir, taking the Evangelist while members of the choir sang the parts of Jesus and Pilate. The turba sections were from the Victoria setting. It came off well; the pitch dropped a little bit throughout, but the singers were probably the only ones who noticed.
"O sacred head sore wounded" was sung at the Offertory, "Stabat Mater" post-Communion, and "Ah, holy Jesus" at the recessional. The choir sang Stainer's "God so loved the world" during Communion, wringing every ounce of schmaltz out of it--wonderful.
By the end of the funeral (Burial Service + Requiem + Absolution of the Dead, body present in the coffin) we were all pretty exhausted--but that's the job.
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on
:
out in mud-and-mattins land we had Family Communion (with Eucharistic Prayer H....) and a baptism. My Anglo-Catholic spidey-senses still tingle when people are baptised in Lent but it went well.
Usual Christening behaviour - the whole left side of the nave was family and friends of the baptism party, the villagers huddled together at the back on the right hand side. The usual congregation of about 18 (inc organist) swollen to nearer 60 but very "us and them" and the vicar having to explain what a response was.
Hymns were all over the place but overall glad to be there even if being this far down the candle is taking some getting used to!
Posted by moonfruit (# 15818) on
:
I was leading Sunday School yesterday, and ended up with 4 delightful 5 year olds, who took great pleasure in re-enacting the Palm Sunday story, including waving the leafy branches I'd "borrowed" from church, and putting their coats on the ground to walk over. At least two of them had a turn at being Jesus, and we had a good talk about how the week was happy on Palm Sunday, then sad on Good Friday, then happy again on Easter Day. Something about having a group of kids all at the same level made the session really easy to lead and really good fun. I did have to remind them to go into church quietly though, not calling out "yay the King is coming"!
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
:
I attended a Lutheran church where the youth group performed a Passion mime. Oh no, I thought, not a mime! Mimes are so obnoxious when we encounter them on the street!
But it was extremely well done. The youth were in black leotards and whiteface, and enacted the Last Supper, the agony in the garden, Judas' betrayal, the trial before Pilate, the scourging of Jesus, the cruxifixion, and the burial of Jesus. All to Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings playing over the PA system.
Very moving. They had obviously planned it out and rehearsed it well. I was glad to have witnessed it.
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
Planning to attend a fairly broad spread this week. Started off at my (comfortably low) home church yesterday. No processions, dressing up or the like. Just a little bit of spontaneous flag waving, which entails significantly less cleaning up than using palm leaves.
I was doing the reading from Matthew 21 and, as I usually do, in contradistinction to most, I read with intonation, not with all the character of a 1950s BBC newsreader. And yes, when the scripture says the crowd shouted, I shouted. Doesn't seem right to take all the zest from the text.
Though I read from the NRSV that I tend to carry around, which prompted a change to the sermon in that the first 5 minutes were spent explaining why the NASB had better translated the "beast of burden". ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
The idea of the palm crosses is that you take them home with you - no mess involved.
In some churches they burn them and use the ashes for the Ash Wednesday 'ashing' the following year - which I think is quite a neat thing to do.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
'Neat' only in one sense of the word. We did it one year and it is unbelievably messy. You have to sift the ashes after burning, to get out the chunky wooden bits. And then you have to somehow bag or box the ashes for use in a year. Not something to be done while wearing good clothing.
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
:
Palm Sunday pulsed. I'm avoiding the mid-week masses - my lent has been purgatorial enough. Unfortunately, as this is a cathedral, the bishop has played his ace and demanded presidency at all the remaining services except any before 10.00 a.m. (I wonder why).
Hopefully they will pulse. They might not.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by moonfruit:
I did have to remind them to go into church quietly though, not calling out "yay the King is coming"!
See, for me if they had done that and caused a little disruption, that might have made it The Best Palm Sunday Service Ever.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
We had a procession with palms and children to wave them, then the confirmands (eight of them, including my son) following. Our host congregation does confirmations on Palm Sunday, though I prefer Pentecost (not least because it makes the pastor's load lighter in Lent!). Had a very moving ceremony downstairs in the basement space our Vietnamese use for worship, where everybody laid hands on my kid and prayed for him--host pastors chose not to give my husband a role in the English worship service, possibly because there were two other pastors' kids in the lot, but a bit hard on my husband, who actually holds his call there!
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
We did the usual ecumenical short service followed by procession, all to All Glory Laud and Honour, people peeling off to head to their own church. Then entry procession into St Sanity to Ride On, Ride On in Majesty. Last night was the first of the Holy Week evening Eucharists - about 3 dozen attended, not bad for a Monday evening after a wet day.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
'Neat' only in one sense of the word. We did it one year and it is unbelievably messy. You have to sift the ashes after burning, to get out the chunky wooden bits. And then you have to somehow bag or box the ashes for use in a year. Not something to be done while wearing good clothing.
And the smell! I had a wool sweater that smelled of burnt palm after many washings/cleanings.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
'Neat' only in one sense of the word. We did it one year and it is unbelievably messy. You have to sift the ashes after burning, to get out the chunky wooden bits. And then you have to somehow bag or box the ashes for use in a year. Not something to be done while wearing good clothing.
It works much better if you let the palms dry out completely before you try to burn them. We save some palms in an out of the way/dry place, and we don't burn them until just before Ash Wednesday—often letting the children help. They burn quickly and can be ground down into fine ash easily.
You still don't want to wear particularly nice clothes, though.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
Our palm dealer (in Texas, where palms grow naturally) also sells ashes for Ash Wednesday. They are so very very cheap (a bag costs less than a cup of coffee, and remember we're ordering palms anyway) that we do not bother burning our own ever.
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on
:
Baptism service - 4 adults.
A very full church and a massive queue for lunch afterwards. A number of people have asked to chat about being baptised. Children waving the palm leaves they made plus the palms from the Easter Presentations for schools we had in church in the week.
We're perhaps unusual for a non Anglican Church in that we have a daily reflection in Holy Week (7 pm) to tell the unfolding story of the Passion. We read the story, have a silent or quiet time then pray.
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Palm Sunday pulsed. I'm avoiding the mid-week masses - my lent has been purgatorial enough. Unfortunately, as this is a cathedral, the bishop has played his ace and demanded presidency at all the remaining services except any before 10.00 a.m. (I wonder why).
No "demand" involved. He is the bishop, and it is the cathedral.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Baptism service - 4 adults.
A very full church and a massive queue for lunch afterwards. A number of people have asked to chat about being baptised. Children waving the palm leaves they made plus the palms from the Easter Presentations for schools we had in church in the week.
We're perhaps unusual for a non Anglican Church in that we have a daily reflection in Holy Week (7 pm) to tell the unfolding story of the Passion. We read the story, have a silent or quiet time then pray.
Brilliant. Being in our town centre, we tried lunch-time reflections through Holy Week a few years back, but hardly anyone came. Problem is, most of our folk would have to make a special trip to attend, and most "non-churchgoers" are more likely to pop into the Parish Church I suspect. Or perhaps your town is more akin to the real Jerusalem than ours (although we're physically closer!)
[ 22. March 2016, 13:44: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
I reckon we started a day early - because we hosted a wedding for somebody who'd been homeless and a woman who said she couldn't give him any cash because she needed money for her electricity meter. So he gave her money that he had received while begging.
They married this Saturday and all the fees were waived.
As for Palm Sunday it started badly because I was in too much of a hurry and ripped the bit at the back of the red superfrontal that fixes it to the back of the altar table - so I had to keep it in place with a heavy Bible.
Palm procession with flutes accompanying. The university choir have already gone home despite Easter being so early so we had the Passion read by several voices rarther than chanted.
[ 22. March 2016, 15:25: Message edited by: leo ]
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I reckon we started a day early - because we hosted a wedding for somebody who'd been homeless and a woman who said she couldn't give him any cash because she needed money for her electricity meter. So he gave her money that he had received while begging.
They married this Saturday and all the fees were waived.
That was in the news! I thought it might have been your church. Well done everybody, and I hope their marriage is truly blessed.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
Many many disasters with hangings/robes can be fixed with office supplies: staplers, tape, and duct tape. I have hemmed up a robe with three minutes to spare, with a large roll of cellophane tape.
Posted by american piskie (# 593) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
They married this Saturday and all the fees were waived.
Pure curiosity, was the Diocesan Board of Finance fee waived, or will the PCC be paying it?
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
I think if I was the parish priest concerned I would write to the diocesan treasurer (including links to all the media reports about this couple) and defy them to ask for the fees. If they were hardfaced enough to insist I would just give that as much publicity as the original story. What actually happened Leo?
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
Night off tonight. Moving to the other (burny) end of the candle tomorrow night, with a Tenebrae service. Thursday is a hike/pilgrimage from Cambridge to Ely. Might see if I can make it to the cathedral for Evensong at 5:30. That'd mean keeping up an average speed of 2.25mph cross country for 8 hours. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on
:
I was at an Anglo-Catholic Palm Sunday service, being used to RC ones, and I noticed that people knelt at the words "at the name Jesus every knee should bend" in the Epistle (which I was not used to) but that when Christ breathed his last in the reading of the Passion no one knelt, although silence was kept (whereas I was used to everyone kneeling at this time). Is this typical in Anglican Churches? In Anglo-Catholic Churches? Does anyone know the history or the origin of kneeling during that particular Epistle (is it only on Palm Sunday)?
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
:
We did both genuflections at our place.
Other proper genuflections : when the same Epistle is read on Holy Cross Day, or at the Votive of Our Lord's Passion; during the Gospel for Epiphany; during the Tract on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays in Lent; and during the Alleluia in Pentecost (at the words "Come, Holy Ghost").
Probably not an exhaustive list...
Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on
:
Our Palm/Passion Sunday was a very special one for our little corner of the vineyard: the Most Reverend Ronald Langham, Presiding Bishop of the Ecumenical Catholic Church was our special guest preacher. We had the Liturgy of the Palms outside, then processed in to the church (which had been decked out in Passion Red - including a new altar frontal made by Judith Couley of YJude Vestments) to the sounds of 'All glory, praise and honour' before proceeding with the rest of the Eucharist.
During the reading of the passion various people took the different parts: with the archbishop reading the part of Jesus. We had musical interludes between the passion reading and the sermon (‘Salvator mundi’ by Thomas Tallis) and after the sermon the meditation was ‘O Vos Omnes’ by Tomás Luis de Victoria. The music during Communion was "Tenebrae facta sunt", also by Victoria.
Between all the components which make up the liturgy: music, sermon, readings and the Ordo (along with the visual additions), it was a fitting start to the joys and trembles of Holy Week.
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on
:
Stonespring it used to be the custom in RC churches before the reforms of Vatican 2 for the priest and people to genuflect at the words you mention.
Your experience of RC churches probably postdates Vatican 2.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
They married this Saturday and all the fees were waived.
Pure curiosity, was the Diocesan Board of Finance fee waived, or will the PCC be paying it?
Haven't a clue - if PCC pays I'd gladly chip in despite only being a co-optee.
Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on
:
If all fees were waived then the DBF will have waived its £189 (towards the cost of stipend) and the PCC will have waived its £226. If banns were called, but not charged for then the PCC will have waived another £27. There may also be other local fess which could have been asked for, but they are always optional. The ones I have listed are the statutory fees at 2016 rates.
[Fingers typing what they hear, not what they know to be right!]
[ 23. March 2016, 12:32: Message edited by: BroJames ]
Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
We did both genuflections at our place.
Other proper genuflections : when the same Epistle is read on Holy Cross Day, or at the Votive of Our Lord's Passion; during the Gospel for Epiphany; during the Tract on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays in Lent; and during the Alleluia in Pentecost (at the words "Come, Holy Ghost").
Probably not an exhaustive list...
Why would a parish kneel at the Epistle but not during the Passion? That's what seemed most odd to me. Are they saving the kneeling during the Passion for Good Friday? Did people kneel at any point during the Gospel reading on Palm Sunday before liturgical reforms? Was this church trying to be Old School? I just didn't get it.
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on
:
Yes,before Vatican 2 rubrics of the Roman Liturgy directed a genuflection at an appropriate time during the reading of the Passion - now it is left to choice.
Before Vatican 2 there was also a genuflection at each of the individual Solemn Prayers of Good Friday, when the deacon would say 'Flectamus genua' and then a moment later 'Levate' ('down' and 'up' would be an English translation)
I think you'll find that Anglo Catholic churches consult many different books of rubrics from different periods and then do what pleases them.
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on
:
For those of us who follow the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite (a growing number each year, due to the fresh supply of priests from the FSSP and ICRSS, as well as diocesan priests who have been trained to offer the old rite), the genuflection during the epistle on Palm Sunday is still carried out.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
..: the Most Reverend Ronald Langham, Presiding Bishop of the Ecumenical Catholic Church was our special guest preacher. ...
Is that the Catholic Church whose Patriarch is Pope Francis with its headquarters in Rome, or is it some other, different, one? If it's a different one, how does it differ from the moe usual one?
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Why would a parish kneel at the Epistle but not during the Passion? That's what seemed most odd to me. Are they saving the kneeling during the Passion for Good Friday? Did people kneel at any point during the Gospel reading on Palm Sunday before liturgical reforms? Was this church trying to be Old School? I just didn't get it.
I dunno--it seems weird to me too. When the Passion is read during Holy Week, the custom is to kneel (both knees) after the point where Jesus gives up the ghost.
Forthview, the original Latin is
V. Oremus. Flectamus genua.
R. Levate.
"Down" and "up" are to the point, but a more literal translation would be
V. Let us pray. Let us bow the knee.
R. Arise.
V. being intoned by the deacon, and R. by the subdeacon.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Before Vatican 2 there was also a genuflection at each of the individual Solemn Prayers of Good Friday, when the deacon would say 'Flectamus genua' and then a moment later 'Levate' ('down' and 'up' would be an English translation)
I remember those - but the genuflection was omitted before the prayer for the Jews.
Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Yes,before Vatican 2 rubrics of the Roman Liturgy directed a genuflection at an appropriate time during the reading of the Passion - now it is left to choice.
Before Vatican 2 there was also a genuflection at each of the individual Solemn Prayers of Good Friday, when the deacon would say 'Flectamus genua' and then a moment later 'Levate' ('down' and 'up' would be an English translation)
I think you'll find that Anglo Catholic churches consult many different books of rubrics from different periods and then do what pleases them.
I'm no expert on the rubrics but when I have been to Novus Ordo RC services on Palm Sunday and Good Friday people have kneeled when Christ brethed his last at the reading of the Passion. I have never been at an RC parish where people did not kneel at this point, I think. Even if it is optional, I think people are just very, very used to it. Most Novus Ordo RC places I have been to have knelt at each of the Solemn Prayers on Good Friday, but I have been to at least one that did not. Of course, when it comes to bowing and genuflecting quite a few RC parishes, priests, publications, and laypeople either bend or ignore the rubrics even as they have been changed since Vatican II.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
If all fees were waived then the DBF will have waived its £189 (towards the cost of stipend)
The stipend would not have been relevant because the officiant is not on the payroll.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
Irrelevant who the officiant is: fees for weddings and funerals are seen as part of the stipend and a return has to be made to the DBF/Church House which then deducts the amount of the fee due from the stipend to be paid from central funds.
Thus, if you as PP decide to let your curate take a wedding and have the fee it will still be deducted from your stipend, regardless.
Posted by moonfruit (# 15818) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by moonfruit:
I did have to remind them to go into church quietly though, not calling out "yay the King is coming"!
See, for me if they had done that and caused a little disruption, that might have made it The Best Palm Sunday Service Ever.
It was slightly tempting, but ultimately I decided that enough people would be sniffy about it not to bother. Maybe next year, I'll be braver!
I also teach in a primary school, and today was my turn to lead Junior assembly (ages 7 - 11), so since we're at school during Holy Week, I decided to do a tour through the Stations of the Cross. The kids seemed to respond well, although I did finish with a reminder that the story does have a happy ending.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Irrelevant who the officiant is: fees for weddings and funerals are seen as part of the stipend and a return has to be made to the DBF/Church House which then deducts the amount of the fee due from the stipend to be paid from central funds.
Thus, if you as PP decide to let your curate take a wedding and have the fee it will still be deducted from your stipend, regardless.
Not quite - NSMs and LLMs now get the fees for occasional offices directly - because we aren't paid and often have to take unpaid leave from work.
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
No "demand" involved. He is the bishop, and it is the cathedral.
Oh, but rights can be requested or ordered.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by moonfruit:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by moonfruit:
I did have to remind them to go into church quietly though, not calling out "yay the King is coming"!
See, for me if they had done that and caused a little disruption, that might have made it The Best Palm Sunday Service Ever.
It was slightly tempting, but ultimately I decided that enough people would be sniffy about it not to bother. Maybe next year, I'll be braver!
Just plan your response when someone gets sniffy—"If I told these children to be quiet, the rocks themselves would shout out."
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I was at an Anglo-Catholic Palm Sunday service, being used to RC ones, and I noticed that people knelt at the words "at the name Jesus every knee should bend" in the Epistle (which I was not used to) but that when Christ breathed his last in the reading of the Passion no one knelt, although silence was kept (whereas I was used to everyone kneeling at this time). Is this typical in Anglican Churches? In Anglo-Catholic Churches? Does anyone know the history or the origin of kneeling during that particular Epistle (is it only on Palm Sunday)?
We don't genuflect at the Epistle, but kneel and the reading stops for a minute or so reflection in the Passion reading on both Palm Sunday and Good Friday as Christ gives up his spirit.
Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I was at an Anglo-Catholic Palm Sunday service, being used to RC ones, and I noticed that people knelt at the words "at the name Jesus every knee should bend" in the Epistle (which I was not used to) but that when Christ breathed his last in the reading of the Passion no one knelt, although silence was kept (whereas I was used to everyone kneeling at this time). Is this typical in Anglican Churches? In Anglo-Catholic Churches? Does anyone know the history or the origin of kneeling during that particular Epistle (is it only on Palm Sunday)?
We don't genuflect at the Epistle, but kneel and the reading stops for a minute or so reflection in the Passion reading on both Palm Sunday and Good Friday as Christ gives up his spirit.
It seems asymmetric to kneel at that Epistle, although it is a pretty important Epistle, but not at the most important moment in the Passion reading.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
Agree, as does the Rector - hence not just kneeling during the Passion readings, but then the lengthy pause for reflection.
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I was at an Anglo-Catholic Palm Sunday service, being used to RC ones, and I noticed that people knelt at the words "at the name Jesus every knee should bend" in the Epistle (which I was not used to) but that when Christ breathed his last in the reading of the Passion no one knelt, although silence was kept (whereas I was used to everyone kneeling at this time). Is this typical in Anglican Churches? In Anglo-Catholic Churches? Does anyone know the history or the origin of kneeling during that particular Epistle (is it only on Palm Sunday)?
We don't genuflect at the Epistle, but kneel and the reading stops for a minute or so reflection in the Passion reading on both Palm Sunday and Good Friday as Christ gives up his spirit.
It seems asymmetric to kneel at that Epistle, although it is a pretty important Epistle, but not at the most important moment in the Passion reading.
That seems odd to me as well. I know there is an old tradition of kneeling at 'every knee shall bow' when it is read as the Epistle on the Feast of the Holy Name but had never heard of it associated with the Passion.
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
No "demand" involved. He is the bishop, and it is the cathedral.
Oh, but rights can be requested or ordered.
In fact he turned up and got into the sprit of Maundy Thursday quite well - until he decided to preach a sermonette while washing feet with an assistant helping
Still, I think he was gobsmacked by the liturgy ("quite moving", he said, which is his equivalent to "OMFG") and that at least means we can journey together through the passion instead of him stomping all over a shared journey. Well, apart form feeling the need to give sermons when silence was scripted.
Now Good Friday is dawning here. We have:
Kiddy-winkles Stations of the Cross
Ecumenical Love-in Stations of the Cross
Solemn Proclamation of the Cross with Mass of the Pre-Sanctified
then
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
Unfortunately they won't be numerically well-attended, as I inherited a parish that preferred performance to faith. Before I came it used to be a Three Hour Service (poor attendance) followed by a packed choir and orchestra concert performance.
Posted by BabyWombat (# 18552) on
:
Maundy Thursday we had 10 gathered in a circle around a simple nave altar, presiding priest with red stole over her street clothes (no clerical collar). Said service, no music. The sermon was a simple reflection on the call to be responsible for each other, even when the other is different or strange in some way. We each washed the feet of the person to our right; then at communion we each in turn gave communion to that person. The setting sun cast a golden glow on us as we began, then faded into a candlelit coziness. Very ”domestic”, very warm, very moving.
Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on
:
I stayed home Palm Sunday. The service always feels very strange to me. Reading the Passion and then on Good Friday reading it all again. Why do we do this? Why not do the palm part and leave it at that then carry on with Holy Week in order of the events.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
I arrived at church for the Maundy Thursday foot washing service, and discovered that one of the Altar Guild ladies had fallen and damaged her knee. Leaped into the fray and hauled water for half the service, and then brought home a carload of towels to wash. Only now do I realize that I didn't actually get my feet washed.
Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
..: the Most Reverend Ronald Langham, Presiding Bishop of the Ecumenical Catholic Church was our special guest preacher. ...
Is that the Catholic Church whose Patriarch is Pope Francis with its headquarters in Rome, or is it some other, different, one? If it's a different one, how does it differ from the moe usual one?
Enoch, the ECC does not have the Bishop of Rome as its Patriarch: it is an international independent Catholic church. Its members understand themselves as following the Catholic tradition without being in communion with the Bishop of Rome. It differs from Roman Catholic practice in a number of key areas such as: the ordination of married men to the priesthood and from Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox practice in allowing married men in the episcopacy, the ordination of women, the acceptance and ordination of people of all sexual orientations, and allowing marriage after divorce.
ECC clergy are recognised by Rome as being validly ordained and consecrated: something similar to Anglican Orders which have come to be seen as valid but irregular.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
ECC clergy are recognised by Rome as being validly ordained and consecrated: something similar to Anglican Orders which have come to be seen as valid but irregular.
I understood that Anglican orders were declared absolutely null and void by Rome.
(Can someone please reply about the passion of Palm Sunday. It is the palm gospel that is the addition, not the passion.)
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
The Chrism eucharist in the cathedral was good - Mozart's Coronation Mass.
Felt odd, afterwards, to the funeral of a suicide.
The evening eucharist with foot-washing was fine but there are less and less people every year signing up to do a stint during the Watch.
Will be off, shortly, to deacon the Liturgy.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
(Can someone please reply about the passion of Palm Sunday. It is the palm gospel that is the addition, not the passion.)
Neither - the Palm Gospel was read in Egeria's time in 4th Century Jerusalem.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
Reading the Passion and then on Good Friday reading it all again. Why do we do this? Why not do the palm part and leave it at that then carry on with Holy Week in order of the events.
Because it is not a play. Each evangelist tells the story from different angles so we look at these in turn throughout the week.
And there was much more until the reforms - we had Mark on Monday and Tuesday then Luke on Wedneday and Thursday.
Also, many only go to church on Palm Sunday then again at Easter, the other days not being obligatory, so they'd never hear the passion otherwise.
Finally, the inclusion of both palm and passion gospels is a meditation - if you allow Jesus to enter into your life (as he entered the city) then there's bound to be trouble - plus some make a poojt about the fickle nature of discipleship - cheering hosannas one day and braying for crucifixion another day.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
(Can someone please reply about the passion of Palm Sunday. It is the palm gospel that is the addition, not the passion.)
Neither - the Palm Gospel was read in Egeria's time in 4th Century Jerusalem.
Meant to add that you can only see the palm gospel as an addition if you startr with Cranmer and ignore everything else that went before.
Cranmer omitted the palm gospel because he say palm crosses (or pussy willow in the English usage) as supersitious and Romish.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
Ta, leo.
Heaven forbid I should think Cranmer's bowdlerization of catholic liturgy in any way normative.
But thank also for answering the point as to why we have the passion gospel on Palm Sunday.
Posted by BabyWombat (# 18552) on
:
Went to a neighboring parish for their early Good Friday service. It was a simple TEC BPC Good Friday Liturgy of the Word plus solemn collects, but no veneration of the cross or communion (they’ll do that at the bigger service in the evening). Again a small congregation, mostly all retirees.
Simple yet very powerful homily referencing the poem Tenebrae by Paul Celan, and its repeated phrase “Pray Lord, you are near, pray to us.” The preacher suggested that today God indeed prays to us to make real the words of the collect: “let the whole world
see and know that things which were cast down are being
raised up, and things which had grown old are being made
new, and that all things are being brought to their perfection
by him through whom all things were made.”
It shook me deeply, for reasons I do not yet understand. And despite then going to complete holiday food shopping and several other chores, it haunts me still.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
city) then there's bound to be trouble - plus some make a poojt about the fickle nature of discipleship
should have read 'make a point'
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on
:
As Leo points out the Palm ceremony was earlier on , a separate service from the Passion Sunday Mass.
Later on it was put immediately before the Mass. This is the reason why ,for those who use liturgies dating from before Vatican 2, the liturgical colour was red for the Palm ceremony and purple for the Mass of Passion Sunday.
Nowadays in the Roman liturgy (Ordinary form) the colour is red throughout
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by BabyWombat:
Went to ... it haunts me still.
Just wow. And isn't that what it's about?
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
Yesterday, we had The Crucifixion by Henry Lawson as a reflexion. Very good, I'd not come across it before, and did not think Lawson had it in him.
Posted by moonfruit (# 15818) on
:
We had Stations of the Cross today, using the set of images entitled Break Broken. I was particularly struck by the way the reader almost cried out "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" at the Crucifixion station - he really captured the desolation, and it sent shivers down my spine.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
We had our usual Christ's Cross with readings (mainly St John), motets and hymns.
Cross (plain, wooden) venerated at the beginning then just words and music, with pauses for reflection between.
Gobsmacked to find that the congregation was quadruple what we'd come to expect: discovered word has got out that (a) there are no sermons, and (b) that the music is good (I know, pride is a sin, etc).
After that we had choir tea and a short rehearsal for tomorrow and Sunday.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
Usual reflection, exposition of cross, and communion with pre-consecrated elements (which for some reason always seems a bit unneccessary to me). Small congregation, in the choir stalls. During the period of silence punctuated by organ music and bits of poetry and so on, which I tend to find rather intrusive, I took myself off round the church and did the Stations by myself, without a set guide. That worked very well for me.
Shan't be going to the Vigil tonight. I seem to find my liturgical tastes getting more and more stripped back these days, to a sort of plain 1662 with no need to say anything much to fill up the spaces inbetween.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
We hsd the usual - readings including John's Passion, veneration of the cross, solemn prayers and communion.
Additionally, a 'Good Friday' workshop aimed at kids, where they make things - lots of adults turned up too. My initial reaction is that the Liturgy alone should shape these days but tghese workshops seem to attract people who don't like words but are 'kinaesthetic.'
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
Good Vigil service - and we had a baptism.
PP got the order of the readings out-of-kilter, but I think the choir were the only people who noticed.
Sang my favourite Easter hymn: Come, ye faithful, raise the strain of triumphant gladness to the tune St John Damascene - not only is it perfect for the vigil, but you also get to sing the wonderful word unmoistened
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
:
My second Vigil here at the abbey. Excellent weather, and timing was such that we began after darkness fell.
Fire kindled in the plaza in front of the church, then all followed the Paschal Candle into the darkened building. (Including one of the community cats!)
A substitute sang the Exsultet very well, though the candle bearers flanking him held their lights too high, so not helpful to the singer.
Seven lessons, each with a responsory and a prayer. Magnificent reading of the creation saga, the reader had an understanding of Jewish poetry.
third lesson (crossing the Red Sea) led directly to the canticle following -- same lector doing both. Quite effective.
No baptisms or confirmations, but we all processed back to the font to dip our hands in the blessed water.
I miss the Litany of the Saints and feel that the blessing of the font should precede the beginning of the Eucharist; more dramatic and then the mass proceeds apace.
Brass trio with the organ sounded splendid.
Traditional Roman Canon with concelebrants taking parts of it.
Organist ended with Toccata from Widor 6th (not 5th, thank God!) and we ended precisely three hours after we began.
A lovely time was had by all -- except possibly the cat, who had to be removed at one point.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
and feel that the blessing of the font should precede the beginning of the Eucharist; more dramatic and then the mass proceeds apace.
Why? The baptisms and/or renewal of baptismal vows come instead of the creed - after the gospel.
Do do it before the mass - and the whole of the vigil is a mass - makes no sense.
If you go from the 'service of light' to the 'liturgy of initiation' that breaks with history - in the early days, the catechumens had their instruction in Old and New Testaments throughout the night before being baptised - not after their baptisms.
[ 28. March 2016, 08:47: Message edited by: leo ]
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
The Apostles' Creed forms part of baptisms/renewal of vows here, rather than the renewal being an alternative to the Creed as your post suggests.
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
and feel that the blessing of the font should precede the beginning of the Eucharist; more dramatic and then the mass proceeds apace.
Why? The baptisms and/or renewal of baptismal vows come instead of the creed - after the gospel.
Do do it before the mass - and the whole of the vigil is a mass - makes no sense.
If you go from the 'service of light' to the 'liturgy of initiation' that breaks with history - in the early days, the catechumens had their instruction in Old and New Testaments throughout the night before being baptised - not after their baptisms.
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
and feel that the blessing of the font should precede the beginning of the Eucharist; more dramatic and then the mass proceeds apace.
Why? The baptisms and/or renewal of baptismal vows come instead of the creed - after the gospel.
Do do it before the mass - and the whole of the vigil is a mass - makes no sense.
If you go from the 'service of light' to the 'liturgy of initiation' that breaks with history - in the early days, the catechumens had their instruction in Old and New Testaments throughout the night before being baptised - not after their baptisms.
Until 1970, the font was blessed as part of the vigil ceremonies before the start of the Mass itself. So it "makes sense" in that for many centuries that was the order of the rite, and still is for those who use the older form of the missal.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
But at least there is not this silly C of E business of only blessing the Easter Candle after the OT readings. How can you read in the dark.
Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on
:
When you've lost any sense of the Easter Vigil being the place for Christian Initiation, it makes perfect sense to me to bless the font at around the same time as you're blessing the fire. AIUI, the post-conciliar reforms moved the blessing of the font to after the homily to restore the initiatory character of this service.
An Easter Vigil without baptisms has always felt a little like a Wellington with no beef to me, but I assume that's how it will always be in a monastery. If you don't have any baptisms, you don't get the Litany of the Saints. In a typical parish, this should be reason enough to evangelize and get some catechumens for next year! (Or a homegrown ordinand / religious vocation, so as you can attend the ordination / profession together and hear the litany there)
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
We have gotten good at reading in the dark, with the aid of those little clip-on halogen lights on a bendy neck. I suppose an I-pad would also do you.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
When you've lost any sense of the Easter Vigil being the place for Christian Initiation, it makes perfect sense to me to bless the font at around the same time as you're blessing the fire. AIUI, the post-conciliar reforms moved the blessing of the font to after the homily to restore the initiatory character of this service. profession together and hear the litany there)
I didn't know that - though i did know that it used to happen on Holy Saturday MORNING and that they used a triple candle.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
But at least there is not this silly C of E business of only blessing the Easter Candle after the OT readings. How can you read in the dark.
That's one alternative version in Times & Seasons. The other is the 'proper' order. We read the OT in the LIGHT (literally of the cancle) of the New.
This gives reasons why the 'proper' order is better.
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
When you've lost any sense of the Easter Vigil being the place for Christian Initiation, it makes perfect sense to me to bless the font at around the same time as you're blessing the fire. AIUI, the post-conciliar reforms moved the blessing of the font to after the homily to restore the initiatory character of this service.
An Easter Vigil without baptisms has always felt a little like a Wellington with no beef to me, but I assume that's how it will always be in a monastery. If you don't have any baptisms, you don't get the Litany of the Saints. In a typical parish, this should be reason enough to evangelize and get some catechumens for next year! (Or a homegrown ordinand / religious vocation, so as you can attend the ordination / profession together and hear the litany there)
In the pre-1970 rite, the font was never blessed "around the same time as you're blessing the fire." The blessing of the fire comes at the very beginning, followed by the blessing and procession of the paschal candle, then the spreading of the light among the faithful. The Exsultet is then sung. The OT prophecies follow, each with a psalm and prayer. This all takes quite a bit of time. Then the litany of saints follows, and then the blessing of the water and the font. whether or not anyone is to be baptized, because even if no one is coming in that night, there will be baptisms soon enough. Then the renewal of baptismal vows and sprinkling of the people.
While the rite is anciently connected to the baptism of catechumens, the baptismal theme extends throughout the Easter season. In fact, the water and font were until 1955 blessed again at the vigil of Pentecost, for any others who were to baptized at the close of the paschal season. This is the origin of the name Whitsunday for Pentecost, reflecting the baptismal robes to be worn. The moving of the rite of baptism to its position in the Ordinary Form after the homily does not really "restore the initiatory character of this service," as they are just as initiated, whether it is done earlier or later in the liturgy. It does, however, reflect the place in the missal of 1970 where the conferring of other rites and sacraments (confirmation, ordination, profession, etc.) generally takes place.
Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on
:
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Then, I don't understand your previous post where you told leo it "makes sense" to go straight "from the 'service of light' to the 'liturgy of initiation'" (his language) because "for many centuries that was the order of the rite, and still is for those who use the older form of the missal."
I think there's some talking cross-purposes going on, especially different people meaning different things by "before the Mass."
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
What Ceremoniar said is correct - I looked it up and I was (partly wrong).
On a different tack, and before this thread gets closed, what did other shipmates notice about numbers attending this year?
In the 1970s, it was expected that most serious Christians would attend the whole Triduum.
This year, I felt depressed at the turnout:
Thursday - 33% of average Sunday attendance
Friday - 50%
Easter Vigil - 33%
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
An Easter Vigil without baptisms has always felt a little like a Wellington with no beef to me, but I assume that's how it will always be in a monastery.
In the (Anglican) monastery where I attended the Vigil this year, there was a baptism (and is, apparently, most years). This is because they run a theological college and the candidate was the son of one of the students.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
On a different tack, and before this thread gets closed, what did other shipmates notice about numbers attending this year?
In the 1970s, it was expected that most serious Christians would attend the whole Triduum.
This year, I felt depressed at the turnout:
Thursday - 33% of average Sunday attendance
Friday - 50%
Easter Vigil - 33%
I suppose it depends what your Sunday attendance usually is. I've been resigned to such numbers for many years: in fact it is usually a struggle to get anybody to see the point of the Vigil at all (not for want of trying). In some places Maundy Thursday has been better supported than Good Friday, and Palm Sunday almost as well as Easter. Nowt so strange as folk.
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
:
Our Triduum attendance was only just below our usual Sunday attendance. I beat the drum for the Triduum all through Lent, so that may be part of it.
The thing we have to come to terms with, though, is that some people will always have the idea that church is for Sundays and Sundays only. I refuse to give in to that mentality by transferring feasts to the nearest Sunday; if folks want to celebrate Epiphany or All Saints, they'll have to make it to church on January 6 or November 1.
Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
On a different tack, and before this thread gets closed, what did other shipmates notice about numbers attending this year?
In the 1970s, it was expected that most serious Christians would attend the whole Triduum.
This year, I felt depressed at the turnout:
Thursday - 33% of average Sunday attendance
Friday - 50%
Easter Vigil - 33%
I suppose it depends what your Sunday attendance usually is. I've been resigned to such numbers for many years: in fact it is usually a struggle to get anybody to see the point of the Vigil at all (not for want of trying). In some places Maundy Thursday has been better supported than Good Friday, and Palm Sunday almost as well as Easter. Nowt so strange as folk.
I've noticed that Triduum Services at Episcopal Parishes is much, much lower than at RC parishes. The three days of the Triduum are not "Holy Days of Obligation" for RCs (mostly because of the insistence that there be only one service (in each language, at least) at a parish on each day and the difficulty this causes with people's work schedules), although they are the holiest celebrations of the church year. The Easter Vigil often gets standing-room only attendance in RC parishes because it is the only day each year in adult RC converts are baptized, confirmed, and/or otherwise received into the church. In some parishes in communities where there is a lot of interaction of Catholics with non-Catholics, the Easter Vigil serves this purpose, but in many other parishes the Vigil serves as a sort of "adult religious education graduation day" for adults from Catholic families who were baptized Catholic as babies but for one reason or another did not receive First Communion or Confirmation when they were growing up. Then again, since the RC church seems to be a place of rapid growth in one place and decline in another, there are quite a few parishes where there are not even any adult Catholics to Confirm and give First Communion to at the Vigil. I was at at least one of these parishes, but its Vigil was pretty well attended, perhaps at least because the weekly Saturday Vigil Mass is just as well attended as the Sunday morning Mass (of which there is only one and is a bit too early for some people). Also, the Vigil service at many RC parishes is one of the premier musical events on the Church calendar, so that also tends to draw congregants.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
For years the sunrise service at our church was jammed. This year for the first time I saw empty seats in the pews. The second and third (there are 4) services I am tell were thronged in the usual way, so I hope it was only the concept of getting up and into your Easter best at sparrowfart that put everyone off.
Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Thursday - 33% of average Sunday attendance
Friday - 50%
Easter Vigil - 33%
That's pretty much true by default for us: three almost full regular Sunday Masses; only one of each Triduum service. Each Triduum service is fuller than any one Sunday Mass, but we could simply never fit all of those people. The fact that the students get a four-day weekend means many of them go home (or elsewhere) which is probably the only thing that makes it work.
At my old parish, Good Friday was far better attended than any one Sunday Mass (but not as much as the four put together). Holy Thursday and the Vigil got less than our most popular regular Sunday time slot, but more than our least. Easter Sunday was bursting to the seams (which none of the Masses on a normal Sunday came close to).
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
This year, I felt depressed at the turnout:
Our numbers for the Great Vigil have been dropping year-on-year. At least partly that's because we have more young families: the reality of having small children is that at most one parent can make it to an evening service.
If one of the parents sings in the choir, or serves as a LEM or something, it'll be that parent. We're down to having the same number of people in (choir + altar party) as in the general congregation - about 30 each, which I suppose is about 40% of our ~150 ASE. ETA: That's a lie - I forgot to count the smaller service. Adding both services, we're more like 200 on a Sunday, so that's 30% for the Vigil.
I think our numbers for Thursday and Friday were similar, but I was at home with the small children.
ETA: We were down in numbers for Easter Sunday this year because it coincided with spring break, and several of our regular families were travelling.
[ 28. March 2016, 20:27: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
What Ceremoniar said is correct - I looked it up and I was (partly wrong).
On a different tack, and before this thread gets closed, what did other shipmates notice about numbers attending this year?
In the 1970s, it was expected that most serious Christians would attend the whole Triduum.
Really? In A-C parishes maybe, but among your average middle-of-the-road BCP/Series whatever CofE people? I wasn't there, but I'd have thought Easter communion, certainly; Good Friday, very likely; but the Easter Vigil? Would this have been a 'must attend', or indeed celebrated at all, at All Saints, Middlestump Parva or St Johns, Leafysuburb? Perhaps I'm wrong: as I say, I wasn't there at the time. But I am pretty sure that while the Church of my Yoof (small-m modern ASB Catholic, middling sized town in Kent, early 1980s) took Good Friday very seriously (proper 3 hour reflection and talks), it never did anything much at all on Holy Saturday.
[ 28. March 2016, 20:27: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
Then, I don't understand your previous post where you told leo it "makes sense" to go straight "from the 'service of light' to the 'liturgy of initiation'" (his language) because "for many centuries that was the order of the rite, and still is for those who use the older form of the missal."
I think there's some talking cross-purposes going on, especially different people meaning different things by "before the Mass."
I think that you are confusing my post with someone else. I never used the term "service of light." The other words are my response to the claim that baptism only makes sense after the gospel and homily. That has been responded to and clarified by Leo.
Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on
:
I think after long hours of praying, and probably not sleeping too much, many of us are misreading many others. I'm happy to drop whatever the point was...
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
An Easter Vigil without baptisms has always felt a little like a Wellington with no beef to me, but I assume that's how it will always be in a monastery.
In the (Anglican) monastery where I attended the Vigil this year, there was a baptism (and is, apparently, most years). This is because they run a theological college and the candidate was the son of one of the students.
If that's where i think it is, quite a few students go elsewhere during the Triduum because of a woman priest (former curate of ours) is on the staff and might be the presider.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
No 'might be' about it. More fool them if that's the case: though there were no obvious empty places in church and one wonders about their sense of priorities.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
The college was required to provide alternatives for those who couldn't accepot women priests - I am fairly sure that the Ministry Division stipulates this as respecting 'differing integrities'.
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I've noticed that Triduum Services at Episcopal Parishes is much, much lower than at RC parishes. The three days of the Triduum are not "Holy Days of Obligation" for RCs ...
Holy Mary Mother of John Lennon - I don't think Anglopalians have obligated anything liturgio-sacramental (except in some quarters the Real Absence™ ) since Henry got his willy in a droop.
Posted by TomM (# 4618) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
No 'might be' about it. More fool them if that's the case: though there were no obvious empty places in church and one wonders about their sense of priorities.
Assuming we are all talking about the same college, and the one at which I am an ordinand...
Those opposed to the ordination of women generally attend all the liturgies in Holy Week with the rest of us. They also, along with any who wish to go with them, go to a local parish for some of the liturgies.
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I've noticed that Triduum Services at Episcopal Parishes is much, much lower than at RC parishes. The three days of the Triduum are not "Holy Days of Obligation" for RCs ...
Holy Mary Mother of John Lennon - I don't think Anglopalians have obligated anything liturgio-sacramental (except in some quarters the Real Absence™ ) since Henry got his willy in a droop.
Not true; the canons of most Anglican bodies required that church members attend divine service regularly, and that they communicate at least 3 times a year.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
IIRC, the 1662 BCP requires that Easter be one of those three occasions, thus presumably making it the C of E's one and only Holyday of Obligation.
I.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
The BCP says exactly that:
quote:
that every Parishioner shall communicate at least three times in the year, of which Easter to be one
I attended the Parish Church at Whitby on Easter Sunday. This is the church by the ruins of the Abbey. A monthly Matins service is usually provided but for Easter there was a BCP Communion Service. The links with Whitby, Easter and the Abbey of St Hilda were all in my mind.
It was a careful service with a good sermon and they were all very welcoming, but in lots of ways it felt very sad as there were about 30 people clustered around the coal heater in the centre and a few more up in the gallery. The parish is interregnum, but according to the Parish Profile, 30 is the usual congregation.
(There are two other CofE churches in the town, the huge Victorian edifice of St Hilda's which was built to be a cathedral and has a regular congregation of around 50, which I failed to get to for the Easter Vigil because it was tipping it down with rain and I didn't fancy getting soaked or the trip down and up the 199 steps in slippery conditions, and St John's, another large Victorian church, which apparently has a regular congregation of around 30.)
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
:
That's a shame, Curiosity Killed... A very interesting church and a perfect setting a BCP Holy Communion. I wonder if the church's position at the top of a very long flight of stairs up from the town might deter some of the older folk from making the trip?
Alos, do they still have the ear-trumpets that belonged to a former vicar's wife on display next to the [impressive double-decker] pulpit?
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The BCP says exactly that:
quote:
that every Parishioner shall communicate at least three times in the year, of which Easter to be one
Somehow, I was under the impression that meant during the Easter season, not necessarily Easter Day. Did I dream that, or perhaps confuse the BCP requirement with Catholic discipline?
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Somehow, I was under the impression that meant during the Easter season, not necessarily Easter Day. Did I dream that, or perhaps confuse the BCP requirement with Catholic discipline?
Yes. I'm under the impression one is allowed a week's lee-way either side of Easter, but don't know where that comes from.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
I wouldn't have thought that the original rule was meant to be particularly restrictive: 'around' Easter would cover it I should think. On the other hand, Communion services were few and far between in those days and if there was one on Easter Day (most likely) there wouldn't be another one for weeks.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
I was told that receiving the Sacrament during Easter Week (e.g. at home or in hospital) fulfilled the obligation.
Reverting to Holy Week itself, I gather that our numbers were well down for virtually all the services, owing to holidays and long-term sickness. There were some welcome visitors on Easter Day itself, though!
I.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire: That's a shame, Curiosity Killed... A very interesting church and a perfect setting a BCP Holy Communion. I wonder if the church's position at the top of a very long flight of stairs up from the town might deter some of the older folk from making the trip?
I wondered that, but the small numbers quoted in the Parish Profile for the two churches in the town - opposite the RC church and facing across the river high above the town on the other side - didn't seem to suggest that. According to the Whitby Museum site, that church can seat over 2000 with all the additions to the original church.
quote:
Alos, do they still have the ear-trumpets that belonged to a former vicar's wife on display next to the [impressive double-decker] pulpit?
The triple decker pulpit was used for the service, churchwarden/clerk on bottom deck, minister on second except for preaching, but I didn't see the ear trumpets.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
I'm slightly concerned if the service at Whitby Parish Church was just the 1662 BCP. From my memory of what the interior is like, should it not have been been Morning Prayer with the Athanasian Creed, the Litany, BCP Ante-communion in the Nave and then moving into the chancel for Holy Communion for those who had given in their names a week before to the incumbent? Also, I would hope that 'ye that have it in mind ... ' was read. I'm glad to read the pulpit was used correctly.
Did they use Sternhold and Hopkins like St Paul did, or are they innovators who have moved on to Tate and Brady?
[ 04. April 2016, 17:59: Message edited by: Enoch ]
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
Pretty much straight BCP Communion, straight through, no choir, mostly said. We were issued with the BCP with Hymns Ancient and Modern in one book, plus possibly a booklet for the service. I used the book.
(I also attended Choral Evensong on Monday night in the Quire at York Minster, which was pretty full - over 100 guessing, which purported to follow the BCP but departed from the book several times.)
© Ship of Fools 2016
UBB.classicTM
6.5.0