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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW 2975 Clerical attire
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Lincoln Imp
Apprentice
# 17123
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Posted
Just catching up with the reports and notice that the clerical attire worn by the cast in the picture in this report is described as "cotta and black stole". Have our brethren across the pond had a liturgical garb language reform, or am I just ignorant? We'd call this outfit "surplice and black (preaching) scarf".
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There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds. (Tennyson)
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Surplice, yes. I'm always confusing the two. But I'm not so sure about the preaching scarf. I think it was the stole from his black eucharistic set.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
I can understand if it were a scarf, but a black stole seems like a bizarre choice for Ash Wednesday (either violet or Lenten array would be more understandable).
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Certainly looks like a scarf to me, but never mind all that. What on earth is he wearing on his head? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Surplice, yes. I'm always confusing the two.
I think it's only Anglicans that perceive a difference. A cotta is a surplice, albeit a particular style of one. I suspect it's because that style is associated with continental Catholicism and the long-sleeved full type with traditional Anglicanism that the two names have developed different identities.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
What on earth is he wearing on his head?
A biretta is not enough to protect one from the Phoenix sunshine.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Certainly looks like a scarf to me, but never mind all that. What on earth is he wearing on his head?
I call it a surplice with a black scarf, as recommended by the Blessed Percy. The headgear is certainly the local version of the sombrero ecclesiastico and one can only laud the use of indigenous headgear.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Definitely surplice with black scarf - and is that a black cassock underneath? A bit hard to tell in the photo. Cassock, surplice and scarf would have been standard vesting in low-church Sydney when I was growing up, and decades beforehand. Not quite as common now.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Yes, he was wearing a cassock. St. Mary's is Anglo-Catholic through and through.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Thanks. As I said, it's a bit hard to tell in the photo. White cass-albs are more common A-C wear here these days, but black has not disappeared. The black also remains in traditional low-church Sydney parishes.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I can understand if it were a scarf, but a black stole seems like a bizarre choice for Ash Wednesday (either violet or Lenten array would be more understandable).
Yes, black for Ash Wednesday is (or was) a Lutheran peculiarity.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
St. Mary's is Anglo-Catholic through and through.
So what's he doing wearing suplice and scarf then?
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
St. Mary's is Anglo-Catholic through and through.
So what's he doing wearing suplice and scarf then?
If it's not a sacramental service, isn't that what he should be wearing?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Strictly speaking I think Enoch is right.
Nonetheless, I was at a funeral this week and although the two Readers (C of E) wore blue scarfs, all the clergy wore purple stoles.
I can't remember seeing a black scarf other than at Evensong (and in the past Mattins).
[ 21. April 2016, 09:18: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
St. Mary's is Anglo-Catholic through and through.
So what's he doing wearing suplice and scarf then?
If it's not a sacramental service, isn't that what he should be wearing?
Cassock & cotta with nothing around the neck is usual
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I don't think a stole would have been inappropriate, although I have seen ashes imposed by priests only in cassock.
Interestingly, at this year's Good Friday service at St. Mary's, the clergy wore purple.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Interestingly, at this year's Good Friday service at St. Mary's, the clergy wore purple.
It just gets worse ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Elsewhere in Phoenix the Cathedral clergy wore cassocks with purple stoles to give Ashes to Go at the Light Rail stop next to the Cathedral.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Are people saying:-
- This was wrong? or
- This is a legitimate option, even if other people, sometimes from different ecclesial communities, do something different? or just
- This isn't what dear Father Spikey-Burke who is the only person who really understand these things (or, for ordained shipmates, what I) would have done?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The old colour was black - but they changed into purple for the Communion at the end
Well, only from 1955-69.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
The most moving Good Friday service I ever witnessed had the clergy in cassocks only up until communion, when the priest donned a white stole and the subdeacon a white humeral veil for carrying in the reserved eucharist.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I'm accustomed to seeing clergy in eucharistic vestments. I think it matters a lot what clergy wear, for services and as walking out dress. But I'm afraid these discussions about whether red or purple or white stoles are more authentic or meaningful for a particular occasion make me want to put the clergy in cassock, surplice, and scarf for everything. Just me, I suppose, getting less patient with 'fiddly bits' as I get older.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Lincoln Imp
Apprentice
# 17123
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Posted
A few years ago we had a Bishop who proscribed alb and stole at the Chrism Mass for all except the Celebrant so that the females in procession could not be identified as priests. It was a very colourful occasion with everyone in choir dress. The women of AC tradition made their point by wearing cottas which count as Eucharistic garments. The surplice does not.
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There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds. (Tennyson)
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln Imp:
The women of AC tradition made their point by wearing cottas which count as Eucharistic garments. The surplice does not.
Eh? How can that be, they are just different forms of the same garment, both used as choir dress? Okay, RC servers often wear cotta during the Mass, but this doesn't require them to be in holy orders...
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Good Friday had been celebrated in black vestments through the Liturgy through 1955, when the Holy Week reforms of Pius XII were promulgated in November of that year. It was changed to black (sans chasuble, with black cope during the solemn prayers) until communion, when violet chazzie (and dalmatic/tunicle) were put on. In 1970, red began to be worn. Thus, from 1956-1969, the black/violet was in effect. Communities that use the 1962 missal (a growing number, thanks to an ever-increasing supply of FSSP and other priests) continue to use the black and violet scheme.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln Imp:
A few years ago we had a Bishop who proscribed alb and stole at the Chrism Mass for all except the Celebrant so that the females in procession could not be identified as priests. It was a very colourful occasion with everyone in choir dress. The women of AC tradition made their point by wearing cottas which count as Eucharistic garments. The surplice does not.
Doesn't a stole identify someone as a priest? (Whereas I've never considered a cotta to be considered a priestly garment.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
I spotted the failure to differentiate between surplice and cotta; I was tempted to write the OP starting this discussion, but somehow, I did not proceed.
One thing I can add, is that surplice is short for super-pelice, meaning over the skin - the origin being from arctic regions, where the spacious wide-flowing white robe was needed. Cotta on the other hand, is an Italian word for cut; hence the much shorter robe or vestment.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
And alb and stole isn't choir dress, is it? Surplice and scarf (or the episcopal equivalent) is. Alb & stole is just half-dressed euchies.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln Imp:
The women of AC tradition made their point by wearing cottas which count as Eucharistic garments. The surplice does not.
Eh? How can that be, they are just different forms of the same garment, both used as choir dress? Okay, RC servers often wear cotta during the Mass, but this doesn't require them to be in holy orders...
When I attended Holy Communion after my confirmation, the priest wore surplice and stole. Pity, but there we are. Although I got used to eucharistic vestments on a Sunday, I was quite shocked to see them worn at a weekday said celebration.
In the past in the C of E, a surplice would be required for clergy at diocesan occasions as evangelicals would not wear anything else.
Not that they bother to do that nowadays and an evangelical archbishop gladly wears a chasuble.
'Igh church clergy might wear a cotta on such occasions as a shibboleth, but on consideration, that isn't a very catholic thing to do.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln Imp:
A few years ago we had a Bishop who proscribed alb and stole at the Chrism Mass for all except the Celebrant so that the females in procession could not be identified as priests. It was a very colourful occasion with everyone in choir dress. The women of AC tradition made their point by wearing cottas which count as Eucharistic garments. The surplice does not.
Doesn't a stole identify someone as a priest? (Whereas I've never considered a cotta to be considered a priestly garment.)
Lincoln Imp said proscribed rather than prescribed - hence, the stole was banned for everyone (except the celebrant), presumably leading to an outbreak of brightly coloured academic hoods!
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Well spotted. Makes my comment redundant- thank you.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lincoln Imp
Apprentice
# 17123
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
One thing I can add, is that surplice is short for super-pelice, meaning over the skin - the origin being from arctic regions, where the spacious wide-flowing white robe was needed. Cotta on the other hand, is an Italian word for cut; hence the much shorter robe or vestment.
Went to Iceland a while ago in the autumn, and the cassock-albs and chasubles were double-lined and made from wool to combat the cold. No cottas there! And baptisms are still often done in the home by the priest - a left-over from of old when it would have been too dangerous to travel with an infant through ice and blizzards on foot or horseback to get to church. Now that's what I call "visiting".
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There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds. (Tennyson)
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
A change from here, where priests will apologise for not wearing a chasuble in weather that's too hot - as happened to us one Ash Wednesday service when it was still 37 at 7.00 pm.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Signaller
Shipmate
# 17495
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Posted
Depending on the service, our clergy wear cassock, surplice, scarf and hood, or street clothes- but we are very Low. Anything more elaborate would be seen as Next Stop Rome.
And what are these liturgical colours that exercise so many of you? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 113 | From: Metroland | Registered: Jan 2013
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Signaller:
And what are these liturgical colours that exercise so many of you?
The same ones that the Baby Jesus uses in his coloring book.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
In the past in the C of E, a surplice would be required for clergy at diocesan occasions as evangelicals would not wear anything else.
Evangelicals used to tend to wear shorter surplices. The one pictured is full. Very English.
Never understood cottas. Ridiculous party badge. Unlike a lovely flowing full English cathedral surplice. >sigh<
But as you say people wear all sorts these days.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
In the past in the C of E, a surplice would be required for clergy at diocesan occasions as evangelicals would not wear anything else.
What ... nothing else at all? Surely a cassock would also have been required! ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
(Reminds me of the invitations I used to get to a yearly function which stated "Dress Optional" - which is capable of at least three interpretations!)
[ 25. April 2016, 07:46: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
Some still do. The sort that are open down the front and have a single button at the neck.
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Good Friday had been celebrated in black vestments through the Liturgy through 1955, when the Holy Week reforms of Pius XII were promulgated in November of that year. It was changed to black (sans chasuble, with black cope during the solemn prayers) until communion, when violet chazzie (and dalmatic/tunicle) were put on. In 1970, red began to be worn. Thus, from 1956-1969, the black/violet was in effect. Communities that use the 1962 missal (a growing number, thanks to an ever-increasing supply of FSSP and other priests) continue to use the black and violet scheme.
And since the edition of the American Missal we use predates 1955, it's black, black, and nothing but black all the way through for us.
Where did the custom of violet at funerals come from, anyway?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I don't understand black on Good Friday. It's not Jesus's funeral, it's his victory celebration. Albeit only the beginning, hence red not white/gold.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Oxbridge fellows used to wear surplices without cassocks in chapel.
As did fellows, scholars, and choristers at Trinity College, Dublin.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
In our rite, there is the altar service (including the reading of the Passion), the solemn collects, the veneration of the Cross, and then the communion from the presanctified elements. No Eucharist is celebrated.
Although it's true that Christ's victory necessitated the apparent defeat of Good Friday, nevertheless the death of Jesus is an occasion of mourning--not least because it was for our misdeeds that he was killed. So for me at least black seems entirely and exclusively appropriate.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I don't understand black on Good Friday. It's not Jesus's funeral, it's his victory celebration. Albeit only the beginning, hence red not white/gold.
See Fr. Weber's excellent explanation above. Black has many, many centuries of use behind it on Good Friday--and indeed, at all Masses for the Dead---and if anything, the question becomes why mid and late 20th century liturgical thinkers would see fit to overthrow such a thing so suddenly, and replace it with something without much precedent.
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Where did the custom of violet at funerals come from, anyway?
The 1970 Roman Missal provides the option of using white, violet or black at Masses for the Dead. I'm with you; black is the way to go.
[ 25. April 2016, 21:00: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
black is the way to go.
Now, if only people will stop wearing it at weddings. Or is marriage a fate worse than death? ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
Some still do. The sort that are open down the front and have a single button at the neck.
Only some colleges (at least in Cambs). And of course no need to wear a black cassock, as you'll already be wearing a (very probably) black gown.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
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