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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pews v chairs
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. How did the body of Christ, founded upon the declaration that Jesus was the Messiah, crucified and risen, come to this?
If you like pews, have them!
If you prefer a padded seat, good for you.
And yet...if anyone were to suggest bean bags, even a liberal nonconformist like me would raise a quizzical eyebrow.
So where do we draw the line and what criteria do we use? What is appropriate (or inappropriate) for a house of worship?
On the surface, it looks like a bit of petty silliness, but there is some seriousness here about how rooted to the past a church has to be. To say that gospel faithfulness is one and the same thing as adherence as an austere traditionalism seems wrong, but so is its polar opposite of a free-for-all where anything goes.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
They'd blast me too, but I say a church ought to be fit for purpose--and the purpose of a church is for people to worship God in.
If the people need padded seats to enable that, by all means. The historians can take a flying one.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
There is also the point that not all people can sit in unpadded seats/beanbag chairs/whatever trendy thing you're shilling. Some people have to have decent back support; time is not our friend.
Folding or stackable chairs of decent quality are cheaper and more flexible than pews. Unless you are a church with bucketloads of money, I would not go and deliberately install pews.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
The decision is in my view absolutely right. How dare anyone suggest that a church should be comfortable, welcoming or flexible? They'll be thinking of installing heating next, and even toilets! Surely the whole point of churches is to drive people away from the faith and increase national ungodliness? The Archbishop has clearly set a terrible example by installing (or keeping) his chairs and should be removed from office forthwith!
If the church is allowed to get away with comfy chairs they might even think of installing tables, chairs, a snooker table and table tennis in the parish church*. That might attract young people and That Would Never Do! ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
* Hadleigh, Suffolk: the excellent "Porch Project".
P.S. I think there is a real problem with historic medieval furnishings which are indeed precious - but the pews in question are clearly life-expired and date from centuries later.
[ 23. August 2016, 14:41: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Folding or stackable chairs of decent quality are cheaper and more flexible than pews. Unless you are a church with bucketloads of money, I would not go and deliberately install pews.
Just don't get those linked chairs which are so narrow that anyone with a waistline greater than 20 inches finds themselves squashed up hard against their neighbours!
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
With the low standards of reporting in the Telegraph now, I would be hesitant about making too much of this without knowing more. But I find the Church Warden's reported comment that they have been growing in numbers, but this ruling will 'knock them right back' rather odd. Really? People go to church for the chairs? Maybe the sermons are so uninspiring that they want somewhere comfortable to sleep?
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
"If all the people who went to sleep in church were placed end to end ... they'd be much more comfortable".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
NEITHER!
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
NEITHER!
Oh, OK then.
The award for the most comfortable seating of all time has to go to St Nic's, Durham which were plush, low and leaned back - very conducive to a snooze, though they were a right ol' bugger to move.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
NEITHER!
Oh, OK then.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Apparently most mega-churches have theater-type seating -- and those cup holders aren't for "wee cuppies."
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
So if we install those chairs and provide cup-holders, we'll become a mega-church too?
Let's do it!
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It's deucedly expensive, those fancy theater seats. The theaters make it back on showing movies; I submit that if a church has that much money it shouldn't be spent on interior decorating. Also, there's a fashion in this kind of thing -- I am sure we are all old enough to remember when theater seating with cupholders was not available even in movie theaters. In twenty years something else will be the latest and the greatest, and your church will be so yesterday.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Actually if what I've read is correct the theatres make it back on snacks. Renting the movies is a loss compared to revenue from ticket sales.
[ 23. August 2016, 17:17: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
So should we sell popcorn to be consumed during the sermon? ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
So should we sell popcorn to be consumed during the sermon?
Bennies.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
...not all people can sit in unpadded seats/beanbag chairs/whatever trendy thing you're shilling. Some people have to have decent back support; time is not our friend.
Folding or stackable chairs of decent quality are cheaper and more flexible than pews.
Flexibility goes several ways, as I saw when a church ditched their random collection of second hand pews for stackable chairs.
The chairs have a hard frame that makes it much less comfortable for someone who needs a chair and a half of width.
A pew is more flexible for kiddies to play a bit or lie down.
A chair defines your space, pews let you spread out or squeeze more in as appropriate.
Never thought I'd vote for pews but that church was in some ways less flexible when it went to chairs. So I'd say each has advantages, rather than one being universally superior to the other.
As to standing, some of us can't, whether the friend who broke a leg, athlete with post concussion syndrome dizzyness, or the parent with babes in arms.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
At least there is no blanket ban, they say. So they are OK if the heating fails.
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Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Never thought I'd vote for pews but that church was in some ways less flexible when it went to chairs. So I'd say each has advantages, rather than one being universally superior to the other.
I have a preference for pews, and you've listed some of the reasons. But there's nothing inherently bad about chairs, and no reason why an upholstered seat should be a particular issue.
You'll have to remember that the upholstery will be much less durable than either a wooden chair or a pew - the fabric will tear, wear, fade, and begin to look shabby, whereas wood acquires character and patina. But as long as you're budgeting for replacing the upholstery on a reasonable schedule, I see no reason to prefer an uncushioned chair to an upholstered one.
If you think a plain wood chair looks more "in place" in an old church than one with an upholstered seat, you're just wrong.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
This may be by the bye, but it definitely impacts comfort: in stackable chairs, the seating surface is nearly always flat. Pews tend to be sculpted to mold to the human butt. I remember riding the subway in Chicago. The older trains had cushioned seats. The newer ones had molded hard plastic. The plastic ones were far more comfortable. Man was not meant to sit on padded flat surfaces while hearing every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. Woman neither.
[ 23. August 2016, 19:41: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
ISTM that if we are going to be faithful to the Word of God, then we are bound to follow the only NT precedent which it provides for the act of sitting in an assembly of the saints, which is clearly to perch on window sills (Acts 20:9).
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Pews tend to be sculpted to mold to the human butt.
Not in Britain!
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
ISTM that if we are going to be faithful to the Word of God, then we are bound to follow the only NT precedent which it provides for the act of sitting in an assembly of the saints, which is clearly to perch on window sills (Acts 20:9).
Not everyone. It would be a real squash!
(As an aside, my son was at a party in Bristol some years ago where someone did sit on the window ledge, fell out and - unlike Eutychus - was not taken up alive. Not nice.)
[ 23. August 2016, 21:47: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
ISTM that if we are going to be faithful to the Word of God, then we are bound to follow the only NT precedent which it provides for the act of sitting in an assembly of the saints, which is clearly to perch on window sills (Acts 20:9).
I must demur. Lying on a bed dangling from the ceiling is also attested to in the Gospels.
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
The advantage of pews over chairs is aesthetic. They naturally look right. You really have to work hard to make pews look a mess. Walk into a church with pews and it will naturally look tidy and peaceful.
Chairs do not do that. The moment you sit on them, they go sliding all over the place. You can generally see through them (necessary in order to save weight and money). You have to work hard to keep them looking tidy. (At one point in my life I had the weekly job of straightening 64 rows of chairs. A good week was one where they were within a foot of where they ought to have been.)
My other reason for preferring pews is a missional one. When people come into my church -- or many others that I have known -- they tend to enjoy how it looks. It looks like a church to them. It is clear what it is intended for. It grabs them in a way that wooden chairs, however nicely made, would not. Beauty matters in churches: practicality can't be the only principle.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
What, we aren't supposed to sit in rows on a grassy hillside?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What, we aren't supposed to sit in rows on a grassy hillside?
Why did he say "Blessed are the cheesemakers?"
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Pews tend to be sculpted to mold to the human butt.
Not in Britain!
Nor in many older American churches.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What, we aren't supposed to sit in rows on a grassy hillside?
Why did he say "Blessed are the cheesemakers?"
Because we have a friend in Cheeses?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Pews tend to be sculpted to mold to the human butt.
Not in Britain!
Nor in many older American churches.
Nor in many modern American churches.
(But I do prefer pews to chairs.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Nor in many modern American churches.
True, but at least the backs on those pews are at something of a wider angle. There are a number of older churches around here where the back is at a strict right angle to the seat, and the seat is ridiculously shallow. Add to that how close the pews are together, and my 6'3" frame recoils on horror.
I tend to like pews better too, though.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
NEITHER!
Exactly. Chairs or pews make it awkward when you want to pop out for a quick smoke (or cuddle) as seems the standard practice in Greece.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What, we aren't supposed to sit in rows on a grassy hillside?
Why did he say "Blessed are the cheesemakers?"
Because it's this hillside?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
NEITHER!
Exactly. Chairs or pews make it awkward when you want to pop out for a quick smoke (or cuddle) as seems the standard practice in Greece.
Or change the baby, or venerate icons, or run across to your godmother when mum is being mean. But nice slam.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What, we aren't supposed to sit in rows on a grassy hillside?
Try that in Lincolnshire, or the Cambridgeshire Fens, or anywhere in Holland ...
Or at the other end of the topological spectrum, in the rocky wilds of Snowdonia ...
Not practical.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
NEITHER!
Exactly. Chairs or pews make it awkward when you want to pop out for a quick smoke (or cuddle) as seems the standard practice in Greece.
Or change the baby, or venerate icons, or run across to your godmother when mum is being mean. But nice slam.
Glad to say that I've never seen nappy-changing, and sadly very little veneration of icons, at least during the Divine Liturgy. But Athenian behaviour seems to mandate cigarette breaks with a cuddle or 2 as well. Can't and wasn't speaking of elsewhere in the Orthodox world.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
Chairs do not do that. The moment you sit on them, they go sliding all over the place.
We must have very funny chairs. They don't go sliding.
The blue ones are both padded and stackable in twos.
The ones with arms have a nice large square thick firm upholstery which is exactly what an octogenarian with a spinal stenosis problem needs.
But these are all in the little old church where we've been worshiping while the 1957 church was earthquake strengthened. Now we have to decide whether we use the beautiful golden kauri pews with long cushions or get chairs, since we believe we should welcome the community into the church for many events other than Sunday services.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Saith the blessed Aidan Kavanagh: 'Pews, which entered liturgical place only recently, nail the assembly down, proclaiming that the liturgy is not a common action but a preachment perpetrated upon the seated, an ecclesiastical opera done by virtuosi for a paying audience.' (Elements of Rite, page 21)
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
The worst sliding I've ever had (and this has happened in a few places) is where you get a church with pews that are extremely well polished, but then on top of this, there is a very thin, scarf-like cushion that's about 7 inches wide and 7 feet long. There's just hardly any friction between it and the pew, so the instant your derriere applies pressure to it, off you go!
One of the other bad pews I've had was, I think, designed to get you kneeling. The angle between the seat and the back was less that 90 degrees, forcing you to hunch forward. Had that been combined with a slippy top, I doubt I'd ever have escaped.
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Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I have been on buses where the seats have been made of shiny plastic. Very uncomfortable and no good when the driver zooms round the corner.
Seats covered in good old-fashioned London Transport moquette are the best - very grippy on one's posterior yet comfortable! Perhaps churches should take note (not that most churches race around corners!)
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What, we aren't supposed to sit in rows on a grassy hillside?
Why did he say "Blessed are the cheesemakers?"
Well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally; it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.
Aren't those who make products for the lactose-intolerant blessed?
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Aren't those who make products for the lactose-intolerant blessed?
Not sure there were a lot of those in first-century Palestine. But if there were any, they'd have been blessed.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Aren't those who make products for the lactose-intolerant blessed?
Not sure there were a lot of those in first-century Palestine. But if there were any, they'd have been blessed.
Most adult Jews are lactose intolerant.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Interesting. Although "lactose intolerant" as a diagnosis did not exist in first century Palestine. Mostly people suffering from food sensitivities would have just considered themselves to have bad digestion or something like that.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The majority of adults worldwide are lactose intolerant. Adult lactose tolerance is a Northern European thing.
Jengie
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Back to my blog
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
The majority of adults worldwide are lactose intolerant. Adult lactose tolerance is a Northern European thing.
A biological adaptation that increases the range of foods one can eat through the long winter. Cheese is calorie-dense and contains protein and sugars in addition to its great amounts of fat. One place where the pasty white people really did win the biological jackpot.
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Still, we find a whole list of rules on when and how Jews can eat dairy products, and a holiday on which the traditional festive foods are all dairy (Shavuos).
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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