Thread: Pews v chairs Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=030497
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. How did the body of Christ, founded upon the declaration that Jesus was the Messiah, crucified and risen, come to this?
If you like pews, have them!
If you prefer a padded seat, good for you.
And yet...if anyone were to suggest bean bags, even a liberal nonconformist like me would raise a quizzical eyebrow.
So where do we draw the line and what criteria do we use? What is appropriate (or inappropriate) for a house of worship?
On the surface, it looks like a bit of petty silliness, but there is some seriousness here about how rooted to the past a church has to be. To say that gospel faithfulness is one and the same thing as adherence as an austere traditionalism seems wrong, but so is its polar opposite of a free-for-all where anything goes.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
They'd blast me too, but I say a church ought to be fit for purpose--and the purpose of a church is for people to worship God in.
If the people need padded seats to enable that, by all means. The historians can take a flying one.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
There is also the point that not all people can sit in unpadded seats/beanbag chairs/whatever trendy thing you're shilling. Some people have to have decent back support; time is not our friend.
Folding or stackable chairs of decent quality are cheaper and more flexible than pews. Unless you are a church with bucketloads of money, I would not go and deliberately install pews.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
The decision is in my view absolutely right. How dare anyone suggest that a church should be comfortable, welcoming or flexible? They'll be thinking of installing heating next, and even toilets! Surely the whole point of churches is to drive people away from the faith and increase national ungodliness? The Archbishop has clearly set a terrible example by installing (or keeping) his chairs and should be removed from office forthwith!
If the church is allowed to get away with comfy chairs they might even think of installing tables, chairs, a snooker table and table tennis in the parish church*. That might attract young people and That Would Never Do! ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
* Hadleigh, Suffolk: the excellent "Porch Project".
P.S. I think there is a real problem with historic medieval furnishings which are indeed precious - but the pews in question are clearly life-expired and date from centuries later.
[ 23. August 2016, 14:41: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Folding or stackable chairs of decent quality are cheaper and more flexible than pews. Unless you are a church with bucketloads of money, I would not go and deliberately install pews.
Just don't get those linked chairs which are so narrow that anyone with a waistline greater than 20 inches finds themselves squashed up hard against their neighbours!
Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on
:
With the low standards of reporting in the Telegraph now, I would be hesitant about making too much of this without knowing more. But I find the Church Warden's reported comment that they have been growing in numbers, but this ruling will 'knock them right back' rather odd. Really? People go to church for the chairs? Maybe the sermons are so uninspiring that they want somewhere comfortable to sleep?
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
"If all the people who went to sleep in church were placed end to end ... they'd be much more comfortable".
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
NEITHER!
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
NEITHER!
Oh, OK then.
The award for the most comfortable seating of all time has to go to St Nic's, Durham which were plush, low and leaned back - very conducive to a snooze, though they were a right ol' bugger to move.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
NEITHER!
Oh, OK then.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
Apparently most mega-churches have theater-type seating -- and those cup holders aren't for "wee cuppies."
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
So if we install those chairs and provide cup-holders, we'll become a mega-church too?
Let's do it!
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
It's deucedly expensive, those fancy theater seats. The theaters make it back on showing movies; I submit that if a church has that much money it shouldn't be spent on interior decorating. Also, there's a fashion in this kind of thing -- I am sure we are all old enough to remember when theater seating with cupholders was not available even in movie theaters. In twenty years something else will be the latest and the greatest, and your church will be so yesterday.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
Actually if what I've read is correct the theatres make it back on snacks. Renting the movies is a loss compared to revenue from ticket sales.
[ 23. August 2016, 17:17: Message edited by: mousethief ]
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
So should we sell popcorn to be consumed during the sermon? ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
KNEELERS?
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
So should we sell popcorn to be consumed during the sermon?
Bennies.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
...not all people can sit in unpadded seats/beanbag chairs/whatever trendy thing you're shilling. Some people have to have decent back support; time is not our friend.
Folding or stackable chairs of decent quality are cheaper and more flexible than pews.
Flexibility goes several ways, as I saw when a church ditched their random collection of second hand pews for stackable chairs.
The chairs have a hard frame that makes it much less comfortable for someone who needs a chair and a half of width.
A pew is more flexible for kiddies to play a bit or lie down.
A chair defines your space, pews let you spread out or squeeze more in as appropriate.
Never thought I'd vote for pews but that church was in some ways less flexible when it went to chairs. So I'd say each has advantages, rather than one being universally superior to the other.
As to standing, some of us can't, whether the friend who broke a leg, athlete with post concussion syndrome dizzyness, or the parent with babes in arms.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
At least there is no blanket ban, they say. So they are OK if the heating fails.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Never thought I'd vote for pews but that church was in some ways less flexible when it went to chairs. So I'd say each has advantages, rather than one being universally superior to the other.
I have a preference for pews, and you've listed some of the reasons. But there's nothing inherently bad about chairs, and no reason why an upholstered seat should be a particular issue.
You'll have to remember that the upholstery will be much less durable than either a wooden chair or a pew - the fabric will tear, wear, fade, and begin to look shabby, whereas wood acquires character and patina. But as long as you're budgeting for replacing the upholstery on a reasonable schedule, I see no reason to prefer an uncushioned chair to an upholstered one.
If you think a plain wood chair looks more "in place" in an old church than one with an upholstered seat, you're just wrong.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
This may be by the bye, but it definitely impacts comfort: in stackable chairs, the seating surface is nearly always flat. Pews tend to be sculpted to mold to the human butt. I remember riding the subway in Chicago. The older trains had cushioned seats. The newer ones had molded hard plastic. The plastic ones were far more comfortable. Man was not meant to sit on padded flat surfaces while hearing every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. Woman neither.
[ 23. August 2016, 19:41: Message edited by: mousethief ]
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
:
ISTM that if we are going to be faithful to the Word of God, then we are bound to follow the only NT precedent which it provides for the act of sitting in an assembly of the saints, which is clearly to perch on window sills (Acts 20:9).
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Pews tend to be sculpted to mold to the human butt.
Not in Britain!
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
ISTM that if we are going to be faithful to the Word of God, then we are bound to follow the only NT precedent which it provides for the act of sitting in an assembly of the saints, which is clearly to perch on window sills (Acts 20:9).
Not everyone. It would be a real squash!
(As an aside, my son was at a party in Bristol some years ago where someone did sit on the window ledge, fell out and - unlike Eutychus - was not taken up alive. Not nice.)
[ 23. August 2016, 21:47: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
ISTM that if we are going to be faithful to the Word of God, then we are bound to follow the only NT precedent which it provides for the act of sitting in an assembly of the saints, which is clearly to perch on window sills (Acts 20:9).
I must demur. Lying on a bed dangling from the ceiling is also attested to in the Gospels.
Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on
:
The advantage of pews over chairs is aesthetic. They naturally look right. You really have to work hard to make pews look a mess. Walk into a church with pews and it will naturally look tidy and peaceful.
Chairs do not do that. The moment you sit on them, they go sliding all over the place. You can generally see through them (necessary in order to save weight and money). You have to work hard to keep them looking tidy. (At one point in my life I had the weekly job of straightening 64 rows of chairs. A good week was one where they were within a foot of where they ought to have been.)
My other reason for preferring pews is a missional one. When people come into my church -- or many others that I have known -- they tend to enjoy how it looks. It looks like a church to them. It is clear what it is intended for. It grabs them in a way that wooden chairs, however nicely made, would not. Beauty matters in churches: practicality can't be the only principle.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
What, we aren't supposed to sit in rows on a grassy hillside?
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What, we aren't supposed to sit in rows on a grassy hillside?
Why did he say "Blessed are the cheesemakers?"
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Pews tend to be sculpted to mold to the human butt.
Not in Britain!
Nor in many older American churches.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What, we aren't supposed to sit in rows on a grassy hillside?
Why did he say "Blessed are the cheesemakers?"
Because we have a friend in Cheeses?
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Pews tend to be sculpted to mold to the human butt.
Not in Britain!
Nor in many older American churches.
Nor in many modern American churches.
(But I do prefer pews to chairs.)
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Nor in many modern American churches.
True, but at least the backs on those pews are at something of a wider angle. There are a number of older churches around here where the back is at a strict right angle to the seat, and the seat is ridiculously shallow. Add to that how close the pews are together, and my 6'3" frame recoils on horror.
I tend to like pews better too, though.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
NEITHER!
Exactly. Chairs or pews make it awkward when you want to pop out for a quick smoke (or cuddle) as seems the standard practice in Greece.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What, we aren't supposed to sit in rows on a grassy hillside?
Why did he say "Blessed are the cheesemakers?"
Because it's this hillside?
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
NEITHER!
Exactly. Chairs or pews make it awkward when you want to pop out for a quick smoke (or cuddle) as seems the standard practice in Greece.
Or change the baby, or venerate icons, or run across to your godmother when mum is being mean. But nice slam.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What, we aren't supposed to sit in rows on a grassy hillside?
Try that in Lincolnshire, or the Cambridgeshire Fens, or anywhere in Holland ...
Or at the other end of the topological spectrum, in the rocky wilds of Snowdonia ...
Not practical.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
NEITHER!
Exactly. Chairs or pews make it awkward when you want to pop out for a quick smoke (or cuddle) as seems the standard practice in Greece.
Or change the baby, or venerate icons, or run across to your godmother when mum is being mean. But nice slam.
Glad to say that I've never seen nappy-changing, and sadly very little veneration of icons, at least during the Divine Liturgy. But Athenian behaviour seems to mandate cigarette breaks with a cuddle or 2 as well. Can't and wasn't speaking of elsewhere in the Orthodox world.
Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
Chairs do not do that. The moment you sit on them, they go sliding all over the place.
We must have very funny chairs. They don't go sliding.
The blue ones are both padded and stackable in twos.
The ones with arms have a nice large square thick firm upholstery which is exactly what an octogenarian with a spinal stenosis problem needs.
But these are all in the little old church where we've been worshiping while the 1957 church was earthquake strengthened. Now we have to decide whether we use the beautiful golden kauri pews with long cushions or get chairs, since we believe we should welcome the community into the church for many events other than Sunday services.
GG
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
Saith the blessed Aidan Kavanagh: 'Pews, which entered liturgical place only recently, nail the assembly down, proclaiming that the liturgy is not a common action but a preachment perpetrated upon the seated, an ecclesiastical opera done by virtuosi for a paying audience.' (Elements of Rite, page 21)
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
The worst sliding I've ever had (and this has happened in a few places) is where you get a church with pews that are extremely well polished, but then on top of this, there is a very thin, scarf-like cushion that's about 7 inches wide and 7 feet long. There's just hardly any friction between it and the pew, so the instant your derriere applies pressure to it, off you go!
One of the other bad pews I've had was, I think, designed to get you kneeling. The angle between the seat and the back was less that 90 degrees, forcing you to hunch forward. Had that been combined with a slippy top, I doubt I'd ever have escaped.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
I have been on buses where the seats have been made of shiny plastic. Very uncomfortable and no good when the driver zooms round the corner.
Seats covered in good old-fashioned London Transport moquette are the best - very grippy on one's posterior yet comfortable! Perhaps churches should take note (not that most churches race around corners!)
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Apparently most mega-churches have theater-type seating -- and those cup holders aren't for "wee cuppies."
More like wee lattes.
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What, we aren't supposed to sit in rows on a grassy hillside?
Why did he say "Blessed are the cheesemakers?"
Well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally; it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What, we aren't supposed to sit in rows on a grassy hillside?
Why did he say "Blessed are the cheesemakers?"
Well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally; it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.
Aren't those who make products for the lactose-intolerant blessed?
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Aren't those who make products for the lactose-intolerant blessed?
Not sure there were a lot of those in first-century Palestine. But if there were any, they'd have been blessed.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Aren't those who make products for the lactose-intolerant blessed?
Not sure there were a lot of those in first-century Palestine. But if there were any, they'd have been blessed.
Most adult Jews are lactose intolerant.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
Interesting. Although "lactose intolerant" as a diagnosis did not exist in first century Palestine. Mostly people suffering from food sensitivities would have just considered themselves to have bad digestion or something like that.
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on
:
The majority of adults worldwide are lactose intolerant. Adult lactose tolerance is a Northern European thing.
Jengie
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
The majority of adults worldwide are lactose intolerant. Adult lactose tolerance is a Northern European thing.
A biological adaptation that increases the range of foods one can eat through the long winter. Cheese is calorie-dense and contains protein and sugars in addition to its great amounts of fat. One place where the pasty white people really did win the biological jackpot.
Posted by Amos (# 44) on
:
Still, we find a whole list of rules on when and how Jews can eat dairy products, and a holiday on which the traditional festive foods are all dairy (Shavuos).
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
from scripture - so what?
Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on
:
The seating I liked the best was a church which had both several rows of pews in the front followed by several rows of chairs in the back. When having small mid-week services, and other special events the chairs could be moved to fit the needs, and for those who wanted a more traditional look the rows of pews were still there. The best of both worlds.
Posted by Baker (# 18458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What, we aren't supposed to sit in rows on a grassy hillside?
Why did he say "Blessed are the cheesemakers?"
Because we have a friend in Cheeses?
Cheddar Cheese Jerusalem, lyrics by Dr. Busker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GowZKAKooMU
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
On the rare occasions when I sit in a congregation I much prefer a pew for the simple reason that none of the church chairs I've ever sat in have been comfortable.
If people find pews too hard then it is possible to make (or buy) padded runners, and it isn't unknown for people to bring their own cushion.
With the average service taking only an hour or so, and that time being interspersed with opportunities to stand, I fail to see why padded seating is considered necessary; quite apart from anything else, the padding is likely to raise the fire risk of a church.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
Padding and upholstery can also deaden the acoustics (though not as badly as carpet) -- and upset the organist and choir!
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on
:
Chiming in late to mention that we have had chairs since our construction on theological principle: this profile from Laval University gives the background (although the text is in French, the linked audio interview is in English). I have to say while my head and heart appreciate the theology, my back not so much.
[ 29. August 2016, 00:33: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Padding and upholstery can also deaden the acoustics (though not as badly as carpet)
Of course, that would be a Good Thing in some buildings which have excessive resonance.
Our church (1850s Nonconformist chapel) benefitted greatly when we removed some pews at the back of the church and put in some hard flooring - we have carpet elsewhere. As it stands, it is a good building to speak in but a little "dead" for most music - although a Brass Band sounds great!
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If people find pews too hard then it is possible to make (or buy) padded runners, and it isn't unknown for people to bring their own cushion.
With the average service taking only an hour or so, and that time being interspersed with opportunities to stand, I fail to see why padded seating is considered necessary; quite apart from anything else, the padding is likely to raise the fire risk of a church.
Not all of us take much padding everywhere we go and taking a cushion on public transport would look decidedly odd as well as be inconvenient. Padded runners on the pews are an excellent compromise - ours are covered in a reddish brown wool, which matches the timber of the pews quite well. Perhaps it affects the acoustic but I doubt that much thought went into the acoustics of most churches when they were being designed.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
Chiming in late to mention that we have had chairs since our construction on theological principle: this profile from Laval University gives the background (although the text is in French, the linked audio interview is in English). I have to say while my head and heart appreciate the theology, my back not so much.
I've always associated pews with stiff-upper-lip-Mattins, and chairs (especially with rush seating) with English Catholicism à la Percy Dearmer. Many of the first Tractarian churches made a point in making all seats free (i.e. no pew rents) – although of course you could still theoretically have pews if you wanted. Chairs are more flexible but when the liturgy involves a lot of kneeling it is not always so easy as you tend to lean against the chair in front and either push it forward if it's unoccupied or breathe down the neck of its occupant.
One of the first churches in Liverpool to be built with 'all seats free' actually has benches (more like park benches than traditional pews): I'm not sure if they date from its opening but they look as if they do. What I find off putting is serried ranks of rigid pews, especially if they have doors.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If people find pews too hard then it is possible to make (or buy) padded runners, and it isn't unknown for people to bring their own cushion.
With the average service taking only an hour or so, and that time being interspersed with opportunities to stand, I fail to see why padded seating is considered necessary; quite apart from anything else, the padding is likely to raise the fire risk of a church.
Not all of us take much padding everywhere we go and taking a cushion on public transport would look decidedly odd as well as be inconvenient. Padded runners on the pews are an excellent compromise - ours are covered in a reddish brown wool, which matches the timber of the pews quite well. Perhaps it affects the acoustic but I doubt that much thought went into the acoustics of most churches when they were being designed.
Perhaps in Victorian times people (especially ladies) actually
wore their own padding.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
Not to mention those who don't wear the padding as an item of clothing.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Padding and upholstery can also deaden the acoustics (though not as badly as carpet) -- and upset the organist and choir!
I'd venture to suggest that a seat cushion has less effect on the acoustics than the person sitting on the seat cushion.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What I find off putting is serried ranks of rigid pews, especially if they have doors.
What was the function of pew doors?
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What I find off putting is serried ranks of rigid pews, especially if they have doors.
What was the function of pew doors?
You've got to have somewhere to carve the coat of arms of the owner.
(I've been in at least one church which has installed little velvet ropes to block the ends of its pews, and the ushers unhook the ropes to allow the occupants of each pew up for communion.)
[ 29. August 2016, 15:08: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What I find off putting is serried ranks of rigid pews, especially if they have doors.
What was the function of pew doors?
Warmth, wasn't it?
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What I find off putting is serried ranks of rigid pews, especially if they have doors.
What was the function of pew doors?
To let you know whose pew it is. When pews were first installed they were paid for by the parishioners, who then got to sit in the pew they purchased, since it was quite literally theirs.
Later when churches (parishes) opened the purse strings and started buying their own (parish-owned) pews, the pew door became rare.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What I find off putting is serried ranks of rigid pews, especially if they have doors.
What was the function of pew doors?
To let you know whose pew it is. When pews were first installed they were paid for by the parishioners, who then got to sit in the pew they purchased, since it was quite literally theirs.
Doors weren't needed for that, though. I know of a number of churches where pew rent used to be the practice. No doors, just a small badge with a number on the end of the pew.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
Yes, we have some of them.
Like this one.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
A door would only help with warmth if the pew had a roof -- think of it as a shoebox set on its side so that the opening is towards the altar. A couple heated bricks at your feet would also be nice. I have never seen such a thing and wonder if the concept is but the fruit of overheated imagination.
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on
:
I think there is a difference between churches where pews could be rented and churches where pews could be owned. Box pews seem to have been where pews could be owned while the numbers or little slip in holders (about business card size) are where pews could be rented.
Jengie
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on
:
I think pew doors first became a feature in the days of box pews, in the 1700s, when the walls on the pews could in some cases reach 5-6 feet. Some of these pews had seating around the outside walls -- they could be twice to three times the width of a modern pew, and it was not unknown, though I suspect rare, for the pew to include a small fireplace or brazier. Keeping heat in may have been a function, though remember that the habit of taking off outer clothing (winter coats and so on) would have been unknown -- most churches at the time were unheated, so what kept you warm going to church was what kept you warm in church. A door on a box pew might assist in keeping the heat in if there was a heat source in your pew, but not very much I would have thought.
The door was to ensure that no unauthorized person entered the pew which was the "property" of a person or family. And that remained its function when the walls on the box pews shrank, and the seating in them was re-oriented to face the front.
John
[ 29. August 2016, 18:44: Message edited by: John Holding ]
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
Here are some ancient ones!
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
Those look like -very- narrow benches, scarcely able to support one's hinder end. Did the worshippers perhaps bring their own chairs?
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
Or chamber pots?
I can't help thinking that a box pew with door would be very convenient if one had to keep several toddlers under control.
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on
:
And for hiding all sorts of unseemly behaviours by toddler's elders.
Jengie
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
Or, over in the other thread, to keep your dogs (which you insisted on bringing to the service) confined.
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Chairs are more flexible but when the liturgy involves a lot of kneeling it is not always so easy as you tend to lean against the chair in front and either push it forward if it's unoccupied or breathe down the neck of its occupant.
It's worse because most of our chairs are connected in groups of three in a kind of chair kebab. "My" spot is one of the few in the place where there is a loose chair behind another loose chair. Otherwise I invariably end up pushing the whole row in front of me into a weird angle.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Or chamber pots?
There was a period when I was a kid when I would visit the ceramics museum in Toronto almost every weekend. One of the items in their Meissen porcelain collection was a chamber pot called a "Bourdaloue". The explanation was that a certain Abbé Bourdaloue (a court preacher at Versailles, if memory serves) was known for the sheer length of his sermons, which tested the endurance of the gentlewomen.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A door would only help with warmth if the pew had a roof -- think of it as a shoebox set on its side so that the opening is towards the altar. A couple heated bricks at your feet would also be nice. I have never seen such a thing and wonder if the concept is but the fruit of overheated imagination.
In New France and after the Conquest, RC worshippers brought their heated bricks in small padded cushions which they kept at their feet. For a while ceramic holders for hot bricks were popular, but few have survived. IIRC one can be seen in the McCord Museum in Montréal. Clergy had pewter footrests (which didn't survive very much either) or pewter bottles for hot water, which they kept in their hands.
Keeping warm would justify the presence of lap dogs in a church, a topic commented upon in a nearby thread.
Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What I find off putting is serried ranks of rigid pews, especially if they have doors.
What was the function of pew doors?
Warmth, wasn't it?
I think I've seen a box pew that had its own little brazier heater in it even.
© Ship of Fools 2016
UBB.classicTM
6.5.0