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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: University serves Halal meat in canteen
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toadstrike
Apprentice
# 18244
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Posted
In my dotage I'm doing a PhD at the local university (Hertfordshire). If the covered-head women is anything to go by, there are a lot of Moslem students in the undergrad intake.
I notice that the meat served is mostly Halal except where it obviously can't be like gammon and such.
It makes me wonder whether this is discrimination against non-Muslims?
I dislike the idea of Halal because of the cruelty of the slaughter.
Many Christians and others would consider it in the bracket of "meat offered to idols" due to the islamic ceremony.
I'd be tempted to make a fuss but no doubt that would be seen as being islamophobic.
Thoughts anyone?
Posts: 24 | From: Welwyn Garden City, UK | Registered: Oct 2014
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The only issue for non-Muslims would be the cruelty issue, which is the same for non-Halal meat. Halal does not have to mean cruel. quote:
Tesco, for example, says "the only difference between the halal meat it sells and other meat is that it was blessed as it was killed
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
I used to work with a rabbi, who in a previous job had gone to food factories across Colorado and Wyoming to ensure that they satisfied the requirements for kosher certification. He taught me that most of the processed food we eat is kosher, and where to look for the kosher label.
So if you determine that compliance with another religion's ceremony makes food potentially idolatrous and tried to remove it from your diet, I suspect that you'd be cutting quite a bit of stuff out of your diet.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by toadstrike:
Many Christians and others would consider it in the bracket of "meat offered to idols" due to the islamic ceremony.
Possibly, but St. Paul regarded the people who had a problem with this as the weak ones who needed education - rather than (as often thought) the opposite.
Laying aside the cruelty issue, on which I can't comment: doesn't it make the catering simpler if all the meat can come from the one source?
Also, would you have any objection if most of the students were Jewish and all the food on offer was Kosher? - worth thinking about. (I appreciate that this is a secular institution rather than a religious one).
[ 21. October 2016, 17:30: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
We had a visiting scientist from Malaysia with us for 3 months a couple of years ago, and on her last day took her to the restaurant across the road. The first question she asked the waiter was whether the meat they served was halal - and was told that all except their pork/bacon was halal. Even without a large muslim community in the area (probably a larger community near their other outlets in Glasgow) it was simply simpler to source meat from a small number of suppliers, and on the basis that some customers may require halal/kosher meat but no one else would even think about it they bought halal by default. I would expect that would be true of most restaurants.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by toadstrike:
Many Christians and others would consider it in the bracket of "meat offered to idols" due to the islamic ceremony.
In which case I doubt they understand the context into which Paul was speaking.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I'm pretty sure there is no (additional) cruelty issue with the vast majority of Halal-labelled meat in the UK - my recollection is that the vast majority is pre-stunned. Frankly, the non-Halal slaughter process isn't exactly great. Halal done properly, even without pre-stunning, can be just as humane as what is standard practice for non-Halal abattoirs in the UK.
As for the "meat offered to idols"? What utter nonsense. You can think that Muslims are mistaken about God, but Muslims are about the least likely candidates to accuse of idolatry.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
toadstrike
They are onto a hiding for nothing. For a reason, which I will not go into, as I have no intention of so formally outing myself, I happened to check with the local university chaplain about halal meat suppliers locally. The answer is that there are various certification regimes and no certification satisfies all Muslims.
The rule if you wish to satisfy all religious groups is vegetarian and preferably vegan. The vegan is not simply for Rastafarians but has a long history of adoption by a minority of Christians within Protestantism*.
Jengie
* for those not aware of it, it is a deliberate act of witnessing to the Kingdom by adopting an aspect of it within current life. In this case the belief that the eating the produce of animals is not the way God intended the world to be, but is part of the fallenness of creation. There is a form of pacificism within Christianity that is based on similar arguments.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
You'll not then, toadstrike, have ever darkened the door of an Indian restaurant, or eaten a doner kebab?
Do you check the provenance of the meat and/or the relgious affiliation in every dining place or takeaway?
If not, why are you fretting about this particular one?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by toadstrike:
I notice that the meat served is mostly Halal except where it obviously can't be like gammon and such.
If you're still concerned about eating halal, this suggests a compromise - live on bacon butties. Would work for me.
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
IIRC, there was a kerfuffle a few years ago when it was discovered that the meat produced by a slaughter house in New Zealand was Halal and the stuff exported to Muslim countries was labelled "Halal" and the rest of it was just sold as per normal. The justification was that it was easier to do the lot as Halal rather than some Halal and some not and then run the risk of getting them confused, although, cynically, I wonder how in the event of such a substitution one would find out.
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
for those not aware of it, it is a deliberate act of witnessing to the Kingdom by adopting an aspect of it within current life. In this case the belief that the eating the produce of animals is not the way God intended the world to be, but is part of the fallenness of creation. There is a form of pacificism within Christianity that is based on similar arguments.
So, we were all vegetarians for the first three hundred years or so and then the Constantinian State came along and persuaded us to all eat meat until the Anabaptists turned up to put us right?
Sorry, I'll get my coat.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Does anyone here have direct experience of working in an abattoir or slaughterhouse?
I have.
I and can tell you from personal experience that halal is far crueller than the non halal methods. Quite apart from anything else, why have the RSPCA been trying to get it banned for years?
I don't have a problem with halal per se (except for the cruelty/trauma angle) but do have an issue with a lack of clarity whether the meat I might eat is halal or not.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Was this Halal with prestunning or without?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Without.
Pre stunning only happens in a very small minority of cases. If you pres tun you might as well slaughter in the "normal" way: there's no difference at all in the level of pain and/or quality of finished product.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I have no idea what "gammon" might, evidently dialect for some form of meat.
Is the cafeteria supposed to make money? I'd just allow them to sell whatever they want to, to do so. The focus on the nature of slaughter has always made me wonder if no-one cares about other aspects of animal husbandry. Like living conditions for cows in headstalls where they are "finished" for market.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by toadstrike:
Many Christians and others would consider it in the bracket of "meat offered to idols" due to the islamic ceremony.
As others have pointed out, to invoke this phrase as a reason not to eat halal meat is to utterly disregard Paul's entire argument on the subject, which can usefully be summed up as a defence of the individual conscience.
The issue of halal food, especially for school dinners, is frequently turned into a political football in France, especially with the principle of state neutrality (laïcité) in mind.
In a stunning display of good sense, my local authority has simply sidestepped the whole debate by offering four types of school meal, described as:
- standard menu of the day
- meal without meat
- meal without pork
- meal compliant with medically attested dietary needs.
If that doesn't satisfy you, bring your own butties.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
IIRC, there was a kerfuffle a few years ago when it was discovered that the meat produced by a slaughter house in New Zealand was Halal and the stuff exported to Muslim countries was labeled "Halal" and the rest of it was just sold as per normal. The justification was that it was easier to do the lot as Halal rather than some Halal and some not and then run the risk of getting them confused, although, cynically, I wonder how in the event of such a substitution one would find out.
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
for those not aware of it, it is a deliberate act of witnessing to the Kingdom by adopting an aspect of it within current life. In this case the belief that the eating the produce of animals is not the way God intended the world to be, but is part of the fallenness of creation. There is a form of pacificism within Christianity that is based on similar arguments.
So, we were all vegetarians for the first three hundred years or so and then the Constantinian State came along and persuaded us to all eat meat until the Anabaptists turned up to put us right?
Sorry, I'll get my coat.
Nope. This is to demonstrate exactly how little you know of post-reformation dietary practice. There is no such claim made in my post, nobody has tried to claim the entire church was vegetarian. The claim for vegetarianism is about specific individual practice and rarely, if ever, adopted at even a congregational level. Its adoption, therefore, was in line with the historical adoption vegetarianism as an aesthetic discipline. What makes it different is that the reason for this adoption of vegetarianism is a prophetic witness rather than personal sanctity. Not all Christians are called to this style of witnessing to the kingdom, just as not all Christians are called to preach. Pacificism was similarly adopted by some as a prophetic behaviour witnessing to the kingdom post-Reformation.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
I've never witnessed Halal slaughter, but have seen both 'conventional' and Kosher slaughter of cattle and although there was no pre-stunning with the Kosher method, the speed and skill of slaughter were such that there was no discernible extra distress in the animals. The man who carried out the slaughter was referred to (by staff and by himself in conversation) as a 'visiting Rabbi', but I don't know exactly what his title was.
After killing and bleeding, each carcase was examined twice, by a meat inspector to pass it fit for human consumption and also by the Rabbi. Some Kosher slaughter carcasses that were fit to eat failed the Kosher inspection, and of the ones that 'passed', not all parts of the carcass were considered Kosher. These whole or part carcasses all entered into the regular food chain.
This was over 20 years ago and for all of that time there has been at least a small chance that any piece of ordinary (not organic or specialist) beef bought in a supermarket or eaten in a restaurant may have been Kosher slaughtered. Personally i have no difficulty with either, but for some reason most of the manufactured outrage about Halal meat in the conventional food chain has not extended to Kosher meat.
anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
IIRC, there was a kerfuffle a few years ago when it was discovered that the meat produced by a slaughter house in New Zealand was Halal and the stuff exported to Muslim countries was labeled "Halal" and the rest of it was just sold as per normal. The justification was that it was easier to do the lot as Halal rather than some Halal and some not and then run the risk of getting them confused, although, cynically, I wonder how in the event of such a substitution one would find out.
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
for those not aware of it, it is a deliberate act of witnessing to the Kingdom by adopting an aspect of it within current life. In this case the belief that the eating the produce of animals is not the way God intended the world to be, but is part of the fallenness of creation. There is a form of pacificism within Christianity that is based on similar arguments.
So, we were all vegetarians for the first three hundred years or so and then the Constantinian State came along and persuaded us to all eat meat until the Anabaptists turned up to put us right?
Sorry, I'll get my coat.
Nope. This is to demonstrate exactly how little you know of post-reformation dietary practice. There is no such claim made in my post, nobody has tried to claim the entire church was vegetarian. The claim for vegetarianism is about specific individual practice and rarely, if ever, adopted at even a congregational level. Its adoption, therefore, was in line with the historical adoption vegetarianism as an aesthetic discipline. What makes it different is that the reason for this adoption of vegetarianism is a prophetic witness rather than personal sanctity. Not all Christians are called to this style of witnessing to the kingdom, just as not all Christians are called to preach. Pacificism was similarly adopted by some as a prophetic behaviour witnessing to the kingdom post-Reformation.
Jengie
I'm sure that's correct. I was parodying the arguments for Pacifism set forth on a regular basis by a certain Shipmate, currently enjoying a certain amount of shore leave.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Does anyone here have direct experience of working in an abattoir or slaughterhouse?
I have.
I have toured through.
The slaughterhouse aspect of animals watching other animals being shot, then hoisted up to the ceiling, drained of blood, skinned and then halved looked to me to be more troublesome than the killing of the animals themselves. Pigs looked more troubled to me than cows and chickens.
Years ago (1970s) I shot animals (deer, ducks, grouse, rabbits, and varmits like gophers, skunks), and cut the throats of deer not dead yet from being shot and rabbits caught in snares. All death has an aspect of cruelty. We pretend if we think otherwise.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I was parodying the arguments for Pacifism set forth on a regular basis by a certain Shipmate, currently enjoying a certain amount of shore leave.
I'm sure that somewhere in Paul's teaching on weaker brethren and matters of conscience there's something about not taking the piss out of your adversary when they're unable to retaliate...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
As for the "meat offered to idols"? What utter nonsense. You can think that Muslims are mistaken about God, but Muslims are about the least likely candidates to accuse of idolatry.
I agree. There are many things I dislike about Islam, but idolatry isn't one of them. In the early 1980's I spent two months in a rather remote spot in the west of Ireland, where mutton stew was regularly served, and I grew to love it. I've regularly made it with lamb over the years, because mutton is hard to find. A few years ago, when I was living in SE London, a local supermarket often sold halal mutton. So I often bought it to make Irish stew. I couldn't care less if it has been blessed by an imman or whatever, as long as it does the job.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Our local (Irish, non-Halal) butcher sells mutton!
I don't much like it, though.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I have no idea what "gammon" might, evidently dialect for some form of meat.
gammon1
ˈɡamən/
nounBRITISH
noun: gammon
ham which has been cured or smoked like bacon.
"gammon steaks"
the bottom piece of a side of bacon, including a hind leg.
plural noun: gammons
"a whole gammon on the bone"
Origin
late 15th century (denoting the haunch of a pig): from Old Northern French gambon, from gambe ‘leg’.
It has been current in english for the last six centuries, but does not appear to have reached your particular corner of the far north.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
IIRC, there was a kerfuffle a few years ago when it was discovered that the meat produced by a slaughter house in New Zealand was Halal and the stuff exported to Muslim countries was labelled "Halal" and the rest of it was just sold as per normal. The justification was that it was easier to do the lot as Halal rather than some Halal and some not and then run the risk of getting them confused, although, cynically, I wonder how in the event of such a substitution one would find out.
I remember that. I was, and still am quite ignorant about the Muslim reasons for doing this, but it brought to mind the Maori practice of thanking Tane (God of the forest ) for animals caught there or Tangaroa (God of the Sea for kaimoana (seafood, including seaweed).
It is a worldview that acknowledges the interconnectedness of creation.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Our local (Irish, non-Halal) butcher sells mutton!
Give me Irish food any day over continental haute cuisine!!!!!
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I have no idea what "gammon" might, evidently dialect for some form of meat. ...
Gammon is a particular way of curing pork. It's very tasty. Even if it has a different name I'd be surprised if it or something similar doesn't exist everywhere that eats an omnivore diet.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
It has been current in english for the last six centuries, but does not appear to have reached your particular corner of the far north.
I presumed NP was jesting about never having heard of gammon ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) . If the term has, indeed, never reached NP's part of the world, one has to ask what they do with their pineapples and to note that, presumably, the frog does not a-wooing go in that neck of the woods!
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
'Spect he thought you were just gammoning him.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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OddJob
Shipmate
# 17591
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Posted
Anyone wishing to complain about public sector, mass catering providers using halal meat is 30-35 years too late.
Many years ago my brother briefly worked in an abbatoir as part of his training to be an Environmental Health Officer, and saw first-hand the minimal difference at a practical level between halal and non-halal. The biggest difference was a rota of local imams uttering a usually perfunctory and half-hearted prayer during halal slaughter.
Posts: 97 | From: West Midlands | Registered: Mar 2013
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Can't speak for Canada, but in the two places in the US where I've lived, I doubt anyone but those who read old books knows what gammon is. It just isn't a part of our daily language. (I suspect we have the stuff but call it something different--probably just ham, or some particular flavor/treatment of ham.)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I think complaining about Halal certification makes a person a certifiable bigot.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Nope. Never heard of gammon. Though gamms is used for breasts. Rudely, along the lines of "boobs." I sort of get the jambon similarity. Backgammon is a game. I learned a new word.
That sort of cut is made into shishlicki here. Cut into bits, marinated to get the salt out, possibly boiled, then barbequed or fried. While we're talking of meat names, there's no such thing as Canadian bacon as a food. I think it means back bacon. That is AFAIK a USAian thing.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
While we're talking of meat names, there's no such thing as Canadian bacon as a food. I think it means back bacon. That is AFAIK a USAian thing.
What the US calls Canadian Bacon is indeed made from pork loin (back) - usually just the loineye. It is sold pre-cooked and smoked.
What the UK calls gammon is a (usually unsmoked) pork leg that has been bacon-cured. It's sold uncooked. It's not too far away from a US "country ham" - perhaps a North Carolina salt-and-pepper ham comes closest.
Gammon can be cooked as a joint, or as steaks.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
It has been current in english for the last six centuries, but does not appear to have reached your particular corner of the far north.
I presumed NP was jesting about never having heard of gammon . If the term has, indeed, never reached NP's part of the world, one has to ask what they do with their pineapples and to note that, presumably, the frog does not a-wooing go in that neck of the woods!
Gammon is not a word used her either, but I'd expect quite a few of us older people would have heard of it from reading.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
The biggest difference was a rota of local imams uttering a usually perfunctory and half-hearted prayer during halal slaughter.
Are halal and kosher compatible? Can you have an imam and a rabbi praying at the slaughterhouse to get both certifications, or is it either/or?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Though gamms is used for breasts. Rudely, along the lines of "boobs."
With one "m" it is a synonym for legs, especially a woman's, but I've never seen it applied to breasts.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
The biggest difference was a rota of local imams uttering a usually perfunctory and half-hearted prayer during halal slaughter.
Are halal and kosher compatible? Can you have an imam and a rabbi praying at the slaughterhouse to get both certifications, or is it either/or?
I remember reading about a College which had a dining hall to provide kosher food. It was shared between the Jews and Muslims because there were not enough of either to support their own kitchen. Apparently the two cuisines overlap enough that it's possible it work. I'm not sure how this effects those who see one of the two as idolatry.
I can't speak to the relative pain of slaughter, but I do know that a very large kosher Chinese restaurant in the Washington D.C. area was accused of substituting non Kosher ducks for Kosher ones because their Kosher supplier couldn't supply enough. Whatever the regulation, there's always the possibility of mutton dressed as lamb. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Various:
--Gammon: Agree with LC about knowing the word from old books. Not sure I knew what it was, though, beyond meat. Haven't come across the term in everyday US life. If anyone uses it, I'm guessing it's either some particular ethnic enclave, or maybe a fussy, high-priced restaurant that wants to sound fancy.
--Gams/gamms: Never heard the breast definition. "Gams" shows up in American films from maybe the '30s/'40s, generally some combination of noire, big city, mystery, and romance. Used only for women's legs, unless as a joke.
--Halal and kosher: Earlier, I did a web search on "halal". Looked at the Wikipedia article, and also at a food site. Pretty much the same basics on both sites, and Wikipedia had much more detail. Sunni Muslims may eat kosher. And there was something about other peoples of the Book (Christians and Jews) being able to do the halal slaughter, if they recite a blessing and follow other rules.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Thirty years ago I visited the kill floor of a large Canadian meat packer as a member of the company who supplied said packer with plastic packaging material.
I think meat began to wane from my diet at that moment. It didn't happen overnight, but I think pork was the first thing to go. Then beef. Then lamb. Then chicken, then turkey. Fish and shellfish are still on the menu it remains to be seen for how long.
It took a decade and a half, and not over any particular principle, just because I noticed that meat makes me pass out. Like alcohol. I need a nap. I figured that anything that robs me of energy in digestion instead of giving me energy needs to be consumed in strict moderation.
When I hear an objection over the cruelty of one tradition's slaughter methods over another's, I can't really parse that objection in any rational sense based on what I saw that day.
There does seem to me to be some material benefit to blessing the animal before slaughter. And again before cooking and eating it.
It seems to me that we can't avoid destroying life in the process of maintaining our own. Even a cucumber is alive until you pluck it from the vine.
It seems to me that the issue isn't what you eat, it seems to me the real issue is what is your attitude towards the life that gave itself to sustain yours?
If Halal and Kosher traditions practice appreciation for this life, then they can't be worse than what I saw that day at Schneider's.
AFF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
There does seem to me to be some material benefit to blessing the animal before slaughter. And again before cooking and eating it.
In what sense a "material benefit"?
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
There does seem to me to be some material benefit to blessing the animal before slaughter. And again before cooking and eating it.
In what sense a "material benefit"?
In the sense that a reverent and appreciative attitude towards the life of the thing I'm ingesting seems to make more of its energy available to my use, and less of my own energy is required of me to digest it.
Just my own observation.
If I am what I eat, then it seems to me to be not just a matter of practicality to assume a posture of humility and appreciation towards the life that sustains mine, and to the form of consciousness that contributes to the continuation of my own.
AFF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
To the question about whether offering Halal meat is discriminating against Christians, let's change the terms a bit.
Is offering Kosher meat discriminating against Christians?
We have long seen the U symbol on our meats and think nothing of it.
It is called accommodation, not discrimination.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Our local (Irish, non-Halal) butcher sells mutton!
I don't much like it, though.
How far east of Greenwich? I prefer mutton to lamb for Irish stew and Lancashire hotpot. I haven't been able to get any since the brief period in which Crayford Sainsburys sold it alongside goat, which also disappeared.
[ 22. October 2016, 14:29: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Mutton is not necessarily Halal. Halal also means that the animal was slaughtered by a Muslim butcher.
In that one sense, Halal does mean it discriminates against Christian butchers.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Mutton is not necessarily Halal. Halal also means that the animal was slaughtered by a Muslim butcher.
In that one sense, Halal does mean it discriminates against Christian butchers.
I have eaten kosher and halal meat and I don't feel discriminated against. Is there something wrong with me?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Mutton is not necessarily Halal. Halal also means that the animal was slaughtered by a Muslim butcher.
In that one sense, Halal does mean it discriminates against Christian butchers.
I have eaten kosher and halal meat and I don't feel discriminated against. Is there something wrong with me?
I think (the qualified) thing was about the suppliers not consumers. Hence the butcher.
You, a non Rabbi/Iman can't (IIUC) create Halal/Kosher meat, however much you want to. And therefore as the middle people bias towards needing these requirements, unnecessarily, you are losing out (I think it would be different if it were the end users being picky) and as such being discriminated against.
That said it is just the abattoir not the butcher or farmer. And even there, I think it's a multi person job, so there may be some vacancies.
And the whole topic of discrimination as such in my opinion gets very confusing [eta while still being important and very real]
[While on the topic, how does sea food work?]
[ 22. October 2016, 15:34: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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