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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Religious Experience
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Personally, I think a "religious experience" is really about the brain releasing certain hormones at a time that we associate with religious or spiritual meaning. But that doesn't make it less real or valuable.
I suppose it is just that we interpret all of our experiences with the context we put on them. It doesn't prove or disprove the reality of God, but it can give us a chance to reflect on our faith, on our belief, to see it in a more personal way.
Personally, I am all for religious experience, because I think anything that helps us engage with our faith more is probably good. At the same time, I have known people who are so obsessed with experience that their faith is all about having the next experience. Which is bad, because faith is more than that.
Anyone else have thoughts on religious experience? What does it mean? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Fine as long as we're cognitive about it. Feelings aren't facts.
I had a powerful one yesterday, much to my surprise. Most affecting. I was prophesied over. And I only accept it as metaphor, as ritual, but it was still most beguilingly affecting. I wish it were so. But it isn't. I'm still processing it in the light of my implacable certainty that I own my feelings and God doesn't interfere with them directly, let alone know if it's going to rain tomorrow. I accept the faith of the cleric who 'prophesied' over me, it was beautifully done and he is incarnational and grounded and real as well as Charismatic, the best I've encountered, and the faith of all present, I bow my head to it, I'm grateful for it, embrace it and don't believe it.
I'm glad of the experience as it stretched me, I had to put my inclusivity in to practice without any reserve of hostility, of alienation.
And it got my wife and me back to church 'proper' this morning.
[ 23. October 2016, 19:44: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I'm not certain what a "religious experience" is, nor that I've ever had one. Unless it refers to Holy Communion.
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I had a 'road to Damascus' experience in 2001. It happened independently of any Church-life at that time, and given hindsight it was probably the result of being in an emotional Foxhole.
Yes I'm glad it happened, and yes I would consider it a good thing were it to happen for others. There is though the matter of caution, every high in life is generally followed by a low sooner or later. Also, if the feeling is overwhelming then it may cloud the thinking and lead to bad judgement.
This might be me being over analytical though.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
At the same time, I have known people who are so obsessed with experience that their faith is all about having the next experience. Which is bad, because faith is more than that.
The next experience? A first experience might be interesting. A bit like Mousethief I suppose - however I am not sure what he means when he refers to Holy Communion as an experience either.
[ 23. October 2016, 21:43: Message edited by: Luigi ]
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I assume you mean you don't understand what I mean when I refer to the Holy Communion as a religious experience. It's quite obvious it's an experience, according to any conceivable definition of "experience."
According to the teaching of my church, it's an encounter with the actual body and blood of Christ. Which would seem to qualify it as a religious experience, if true. YMMV.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
The Wiki: Religious Experience.
It seems to me that the term is usually used to describe something out of the ordinary, in which the divine is perceived to have been directly encountered in some way. I've had one experience I would describe that way. It did occur in the context of Holy Communion, but was beyond anything I've normally experienced during Communion.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Ah, so the definition refers to a subjective, unusual "experience."
In which case I haven't had any. As I indicated in my first post on this thread.
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GeorgeNZ
Apprentice
# 18672
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Posted
Reading the likes of Merton or any of the older mystical writers (and some of the Fathers) I had always held out 'hope' that the mystical direct experience of God was not only possible but maybe even expected. Not for the 'experience' in an of itself, but because if God is indwelling then why would we not if 'open' expect to do so.
Apart from that, I hear so often Jesus spoken of as our 'personal' saviour, our friend and lover who knows us better than ourselves, is always with us etc etc . . . . then why would we not expect to come into contact directly with God?
I get very tired/down about an absent God, I want to walk with him not just talk myself into the belief that I am.
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I had an experience once. It's difficult to put into words, but it was amazing. I felt the power and glory and greatness of God all around me as I was walking through a thunderstorm. I laughed and danced through the rain. It was a long time ago now, but I'll always remember it.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GeorgeNZ:
Apart from that, I hear so often Jesus spoken of as our 'personal' saviour, our friend and lover who knows us better than ourselves, is always with us etc etc . . . . then why would we not expect to come into contact directly with God?
While some people clearly have subjective religious experiences that make a profound impact on them, I'm not sure mind-blowing experiences are the norm or even a legitimate expectation.
It's also true that the "Jesus is my personal saviour" line can be overused and abused.
However, I can't get away from the idea that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the defining feature of the New Covenant, and that the whole essence of this New Covenant revolves around a relationship with God rather than mechanistic obedience to a rule.
That relationship* may well not revolve around the sort of thing we mostly seem to mean by "religious experience", but I think it does involve a subjective sense of "knowing" that goes beyond logic and reasoning alone.
==
*These days I use this word less and less due to its "Jesus-is-my-boyfriend" overtones, but again, I flounder for a better term. "Walk", perhaps, or "trajectory" (a bit of a mouthful); "journey"? (French has a nice word meaning a bit of all of the above, which I use a lot: cheminement, 'way-going', with its echoes of Emmaus (did that count as a religious experience?)).
[ 24. October 2016, 05:21: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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GeorgeNZ
Apprentice
# 18672
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Posted
Eutychus I think it is this 'sense of knowing' beyond reason but also more than just a sense of strong belief, something almost tangible but then how tangible can God be? Well I guess God can be as tangible wants to be, and I also guess that that level of awareness is entirely at Gods discretion, we cannot obtain Him, He can only reveal.
When I wish for more, I then quickly find myself wondering what I would do with that once experienced. Maybe not 'having' in itself is a grace.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Many dedicated Christians never have any kind of religious experience or feeling. I don't know why, but I theorize it might have to do with a person's wiring/chemistry. It's probably the same for people of other faiths, because I know some of them have religious experiences, too, so it would make sense that some don't.
And there's always the question of whether the Divine exists and sends religious* experiences.
Buddhist teacher Jack Kornfield has some good ideas about keeping your balance after a spiritual experience. He's been a monk, a husband and father, co-founded the Insight Meditation Society and retreat centers in the US, and written several books. Check out "A Path With Heart" and "After The Ecstasy, The Laundry". I'm not sure if there's anything about what to do if you never have a spiritual experience; but he does address not making a big deal of a particular experience, because that isn't what your spiritual practice is about.
*And spiritual experiences. I heard recently that some atheists are working on ways to acknowledge a spiritual dimension of life.
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I asked for a "religious experience" from God when I was thirteen, and I got one a few weeks later after the asking, so I don't think it was something emotional I just whipped myself into. Even at the time, I knew it was a precious gift that I shouldn't expect to be ongoing. I thanked God for it and promised to remember the experience and treasure it when things got dry.
I have had a few quiet brushes with the feelings since then, but that was my personal commitment moment.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Personally, I think a "religious experience" is really about the brain releasing certain hormones at a time that we associate with religious or spiritual meaning. But that doesn't make it less real or valuable.
I suppose it is just that we interpret all of our experiences with the context we put on them.
Agree absolutely. The dominant features of our earlest years, our parents, other influential adults, the culture , the local area and the country we were born into,, plus the need instinctively to obey and rely on those for our very survival, establish our early belief system.* quote:
It doesn't prove or disprove the reality of God, but it can give us a chance to reflect on our faith, on our belief, to see it in a more personal way.
And the more we have been surrounded and influenced by our religious background, the more unlikely one is, and the harder it would be, to step outside it, in order to see that there is a total lack of facts about any God/god/s. I consider that I was fortunate in that the only belief I had been told was true was that God existed; all other beliefs and stories were different cultures’ differing routes to said God. Even so, with a wider knowledge of non-belief I think I would certainly have stepped away from it far sooner in my life. quote:
Personally, I am all for religious experience, because I think anything that helps us engage with our faith more is probably good. At the same time, I have known people who are so obsessed with experience that their faith is all about having the next experience. Which is bad, because faith is more than that.
I would be most interested to hear how you would elaborate on those last five words.
Havingf sat and thought about that for a while, I think I would say that faith in a human idea which is a complex story based on an originally human idea is a barrier to saying that there are many questions to which we do not know the answer but it is no longer valid to say the answer is God rather than these are simply unanswered questions. quote:
Anyone else have thoughts on religious experience? What does it mean? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?
The moment you find that you totally lack belief in any God/god/s, you know that all the experiences you have had and which you might have interpreted as religious experiences were simply human experiences, every single one of them easy for our evolved brains to create … and then interpret according to culture, background, etc etc. So all in all I think your first paragraph is spot on!
*I’m sure there is a better phrase or word for that, but I can’t think of it at the moment.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
While some people clearly have subjective religious experiences that make a profound impact on them, I'm not sure mind-blowing experiences are the norm or even a legitimate expectation.
And I think that there are some Evangelical/charismatic circles in which people will "talk up" their experiences in order to gain kudos or to prove they really "belong".
Which is not to gainsay the genuine article.
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
*And spiritual experiences. I heard recently that some atheists are working on ways to acknowledge a spiritual dimension of life.
I hope they are doing so in a way that points out that all humans have a variety of experiences - it is the interpretation of many believers that atheists are not spiritual in anyway!! Do you have a relevant link, I wonder?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Susan--
I'll try to find something for you. The latest I heard was on the radio, over the weekend. May be a couple of days before I have time to track it down.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Susan--
I'll try to find something for you. The latest I heard was on the radio, over the weekend. May be a couple of days before I have time to track it down.
Thank you, Golden Key, that would be most kind of you. It certainly sounds interesting! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
Schrodingers Cat:
quote:
Personally, I think a "religious experience" is really about the brain releasing certain hormones at a time that we associate with religious or spiritual meaning. But that doesn't make it less real or valuable.
As it stands that it uncontroversial. If you mean it is "all about . . " then I disagree. I am fond of a famous dictum (I thought by Feuerbach but I can't find it) "All statements about God are reducible WITHOUT REMAINDER (my caps) to statemennts about man".
Again it's a useful rule, like yours, but taken too far. Because of course the same is true of all experiences, like relationships, appreciating the beauty of nature etc. These are, of course, mediated by hormones, but also have external referents.
Somebody coined the term "peak experiences" and I have these fairly regularly, and often they are indeed random. But when one studies the lives of those who really have gone far down the path of prayer and meditation, I think it is fair to say they have religious experiences.
Any connection to God is still to be determined, especially if they are Buddhist.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What external referent beyond the material is involved in any of these experiences?
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Love wins
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Do you think the Holy Spirit is more a feeling or a fact?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I had a religious experience a few weeks after our son was stillborn. It was ...wondrous. I can't describe it. It got me through a very difficult time and stopped me sinking into depression, which was invaluable because I had two children, aged 5 and 3, and really couldn't afford to be depressed.
BUT I thought that God had promised me another baby; I thought I had even been given a name for the baby.
In the event I had a further two miscarriages. I kept hoping for another baby long after it was reasonable to do so, and delayed resuming my career on the basis that I expected to have another child.
Technically, as I'm not through the menopause yet, it's still possible I might have the "promised" baby, but I really, really, REALLY don't want to find myself pregnant at 52!
Long term it has really screwed with my faith; not my faith in God, which is very strong, but in my faith in myself. I have lost faith in my ability to discern. I know I am capable of great self-deception. I don't trust myself not to deceive myself again in the future. I feel I hold myself back in prayer and study because of this.
This isn't something I can talk about in RL, because I feel foolish about it. One of the reasons I joined the Ship of Fools was because this seemed a place where fools like me could gather.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think an awareness of the presence of God is a distinct thing from being sure we know what he's saying.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Fact of course.
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Love wins
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
But this fact cannot be known to us in any meaningful sense if it is not felt.
When Paul says "I know whom I have believed", I don't think he's talking about mere head knowledge.
The disciples on the Emmaus road had their heads stuffed full of the Scriptures by Jesus, but what they referred back to after all was made plain was the fire burning in their hearts.
There's an experiential component to knowing this sort of "fact", one you can't prove by logic alone.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
But this fact cannot be known to us in any meaningful sense if it is not felt.
When Paul says "I know whom I have believed", I don't think he's talking about mere head knowledge.
The disciples on the Emmaus road had their heads stuffed full of the Scriptures by Jesus, but what they referred back to after all was made plain was the fire burning in their hearts.
There's an experiential component to knowing this sort of "fact", one you can't prove by logic alone.
What a lovely summary, almost what I would call a definition of, gnosis.
Perhaps I have underestimated Paul (I hold him in scant esteem I confess).
If I replace the emphasis on his words "I know whom I have believed" then I can't really place any distinction between his experience on the road to Damascus and my own experience in my living room when I was 24.
So Paul, I owe you an apology. But I still disagree with you.
AFF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
As it stands that it uncontroversial. If you mean it is "all about . . " then I disagree. I am fond of a famous dictum (I thought by Feuerbach but I can't find it) "All statements about God are reducible WITHOUT REMAINDER (my caps) to statements about man".
Oh yes. If we are to follow the argument to its logical conclusion then we are faced with this.
Then where is the benefit of making the distinction between the human and God? What then is the burden of our responsibility for our relationship with one another? Why is "human" always equated with "inferior to God"?
It seems to me that we prefer to hide from ourselves and run from our responsibility toward one another and from our responsibility for this existence.
Even the Buddhists greet one another with "namaste" - I salute the Divine in you.
The gnostic parables freely admit the parity: the Human origin and place is above that of the god of the Hebrews.
So why do we behave towards one another as if we do not own this divinity?
AFF
[ 24. October 2016, 10:11: Message edited by: A Feminine Force ]
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
If I replace the emphasis on his words "I know whom I have believed"
I have never put the emphasis anywhere else, probably because of the scansion of this hymn, which was part of my youth, as at 0:23.
[ 24. October 2016, 10:11: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
..."All statements about God are reducible WITHOUT REMAINDER (my caps) to statements about man".
Again it's a useful rule, like yours, but taken too far. Because of course the same is true of all experiences, like relationships, appreciating the beauty of nature etc. These are, of course, mediated by hormones, but also have external referents.
Can you think of anything which could come under the heading of religious experiences that is not reducible to 'statements about Man', or which have been 'taken too far'?
I think that definitions of the word 'religious' have, unfortunately, become too blurred and unclear because it is applied to, for instance, sports.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Do you think the Holy Spirit is more a feeling or a fact?
Unsurprisingly, I do not think the word 'fact' can be applied to any spirit, let alone one called 'holy'!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
You'll have to have that out with Martin, then.
If there is a Holy Spirit, existence thereof is a fact, but I don't think it's one we can prove.
What is important for a Christian, in my view, is that belief in the Holy Spirit should make sense and, ultimately, have its root in some experiential knowledge on the part of the believer.
In my own experience, this is not necessarily spectacular, but it does prove to be pretty unbudgeable even in the face of doubt. Others' mileage may vary.
[ 24. October 2016, 10:28: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Eutychus
Thank you for your reply.
Interesting topic this one.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
It's all about beliefs imo.
In the past I would put the feelings down to the Holy Spirit, now I see the scource as far more natural, psychological, chemical and hormonal.
But, if those feelings bring positive changes, does it matter?
'God did it through me' may sound far more humble, but is it really?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
Martin: quote:
What external referent beyond the material is involved in any of these experiences?
First, I'm not sure there has to be for them to count as religious experiences.
But mainly, except for strict materialists, other people are not simply material. Nor are ideas.
A friend of mine found that the idea of The Incarnation induced feeling of religious exaltation in him, for example.
Mind you, in the Bible, contact with God tended to make people feel a bit sick, and if we accept that we find God in the poor and the generally not very nice to our sensibilities, the same may well still apply.
People who associate feeling wonderful when in the presence of God, may in my view possibly be in need of a more accurate map. Doggies and pussycats do a better job of making you feel good.
[ 24. October 2016, 12:14: Message edited by: anteater ]
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
It's all about beliefs imo.
I don't know if it is. My own "Road to Damascus" experience happened when I was quite young, inclined towards atheism, and came out of a clear blue sky apropos of nothing.
I wasn't looking for it, I wasn't asking for it, and I would have found much comfort and solace if I could have written it off to too much wine, or weed, or bad shellfish.
But it was none of those.
And to top it off, I had a recurrence 6 nights later wherein the One who came to me said "Look I know you're looking for a way to dismiss our conversation earlier this week. So this is Me just to show you in no uncertain terms that yes it's Me, yes we are really having this conversation, and no you will never be able to dismiss this experience."
It's been indelible. I can't alter the experience. It's there, perfect, whole, complete and completely unchanged for decades now.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
In the past I would put the feelings down to the Holy Spirit, now I see the scource as far more natural, psychological, chemical and hormonal.
But, if those feelings bring positive changes, does it matter?
What you describe are the mechanics by which the human organism facilitates the experience.
The origin of the experience lies somewhere else, if I am to give my own experience any credit.
The "How" of something can never satisfy the question "Why" or "Wherefore".
That's for the individual to decide, and not for anyone else to decide for them, no matter how sophisticated their understanding of biomechanics.
IMO it's Ok to say "I'm a human being having a spiritual experience." Just it isn't OK to dismiss the POV of someone who says "I'm a spiritual being having a human experience".
AFF
[ 24. October 2016, 12:15: Message edited by: A Feminine Force ]
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
It's all about beliefs imo.
In the past I would put the feelings down to the Holy Spirit, now I see the source as far more natural, psychological, chemical and hormonal. ...
Boogie, I'm not sure that makes much difference. When I see the screen of the computer on which I am typing this reply, what I suppose is actually happening, is that I am experiencing various minute electrical or other charges in my brain and the image of the screen constantly updates itself. And the computer itself is driven by a whole lot of electric impulses. But neither of those incontrovertible facts has any bearing on whether the computer is really there or whether I'm imagining it.
So saying a religious experience may be more natural, psychological, chemical and hormonal, doesn't actually change the answer to the question whether any particular religious experience is objectively real or not.
So I think I agree with you that it is really about beliefs.
Thank you North East Quine for having the courage to share some of the things you've just shared.
I'm both puzzled and intrigued by the statement that "some atheists are working on ways to acknowledge a spiritual dimension of life". How is even the possibility of there being a spiritual dimension compatible with being a convinced atheist? To me, it would seem a fairly fundamental tenet of convinced atheism that there is no such thing as a spiritual dimension.
Susan Doris, you may be the only person who regularly posts on the threads who has the factual knowledge of atheism to be able that question. Can you help? Is that position an incompatible one, or is there some more nuanced explanation?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
However, I can't get away from the idea that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the defining feature of the New Covenant, and that the whole essence of this New Covenant revolves around a relationship with God rather than mechanistic obedience to a rule.
That relationship* may well not revolve around the sort of thing we mostly seem to mean by "religious experience", but I think it does involve a subjective sense of "knowing" that goes beyond logic and reasoning alone.
I hope this subjective "knowing" and "mechanistic obedience" aren't the only two choices on offer. I don't profess either but still consider myself a Christian. Perhaps I'm wrong about that.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What is important for a Christian, in my view, is that belief in the Holy Spirit should make sense and, ultimately, have its root in some experiential knowledge on the part of the believer.
Okay, well, it seems I'm wrong.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
But this fact cannot be known to us in any meaningful sense if it is not felt.
When Paul says "I know whom I have believed", I don't think he's talking about mere head knowledge.
The disciples on the Emmaus road had their heads stuffed full of the Scriptures by Jesus, but what they referred back to after all was made plain was the fire burning in their hearts.
There's an experiential component to knowing this sort of "fact", one you can't prove by logic alone.
Fact precedes feeling precedes fact. As it did on the road to Emmaus. And for me on Saturday morning. As it does for me now. And all facts are accompanied with feelings on reception and after.
Jesus is a fact for me. I accept that God the Holy Spirit is a living, immanent one now but I have no idea how, beyond and even in orthodox teaching as the paraclete: counsellor, helper, encourager, advocate, comforter. Where I am counselled, helped, encouraged, advocated, comforted, taught, guided, convicted and, especially for me, in revelation of Jesus, I MUST acknowledge It.
I see the God the Holy Spirit acting in many places in the New Testament, but I NEVER see It (formally should that be Him as a Person of formally male God? Like Mr. Saavik?) making anyone feel or think anything directly by fiat, changing their thinking or feeling by intruding, interfering in their minds beyond dreams and visions and hearing and other externals in their sensorium. Do you? Psychiatric healing is another issue.
And no one experiences any of those things in any transferable sense since. No one. Ever.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Enoch wrote:
quote:
I'm both puzzled and intrigued by the statement that "some atheists are working on ways to acknowledge a spiritual dimension of life". How is even the possibility of there being a spiritual dimension compatible with being a convinced atheist? To me, it would seem a fairly fundamental tenet of convinced atheism that there is no such thing as a spiritual dimension.
It depends on what you mean by 'spiritual', but in some Eastern religions there is a sense of the spiritual or transcendent, without God. Obvious examples are Buddhism and advaita (Vedanta).
One of the basic experiences here is a nondualistic one, which refers to the transcendence over the self/other duality, leading to a sense of unity. However, this would not be called God by many practitioners.
No doubt, there are other ways to the transcendent like this. I suppose it is transcendent yet not supernatural.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Religious experience in its broadest sense would be acknowledgement of God's hand in the beauty of nature, the sense of stillness and peace in a holy place or church, sharing in worship or Holy Communion, or finding that some of the words of the Bible come to life as we're reading it. All stimulate those elements built into us which are there for that purpose, to help us to come to life spiritually.
Particular religious experience varies, from Road to Damascus experiences which are often unpleasant and painful, as was Paul's, to vivid visions or dreams or 'words of wisdom' which will always be affirmed in other ways, usually through other people, as was Paul's.
Then there is the day by day religious experience which grows faith, the revelation of God to us which increases the more time we spend with God in prayer, the more we yield to God, the more we serve God in our daily lives, the more we listen for God's voice and acknowledge God's presence through the Holy Spirit. The mutual invitation of relationship with God, like that between us as human beings, depends upon our willingness and readiness to give.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Makes sense to me. Consciousness - a transcendent, emergent phenomenon in itself one feels - reaches for what it cannot grasp and when it does it collectively, all manner of meta-evil and meta-good synergistically emerges.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The interesting thing, well, one interesting thing is that transcendence seems a natural process, whereas the supernatural is quite a stretch for some people.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Enoch
Just as soon as I get back from swimming!!!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
The "How" of something can never satisfy the question "Why" or "Wherefore".
And the answers to the 'why' and 'wherefore' questions come down to what we believe.
My own 'road or Damascus' experience was also sudden and very much unsaught and unasked for. I still remeber the date, 6th June 1990. I was in my front room at home looking at the birds on the roofs opposite. No music, no charismatic preachers, just me and 'God'.
But I now think that, subconsciously, I was looking for 'meaning' in my life and was far more suggestible than I wanted to admit.
I was going to a Bible study at the time and put meaning on an experience which I now think was due to suggestion - not God.
I could be wrong. Plenty of people would (and I used to say) that the Holy Spirit had been at work through scripture.
But if only good came of it why worry anyway? I think only good came of it, I became more involved at Church and in 'good works'. If people change for the better why do we need to look for reasons?
(I wasn't 'searching' at the Bible study, it was set up for Mums and toddlers and I went along as a pleasant way in to a ready made toddler group for my two small boys)
[ 24. October 2016, 14:04: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The interesting thing, well, one interesting thing is that transcendence seems a natural process, whereas the supernatural is quite a stretch for some people.
Intriguingly well observed. Everything is spiritual. I find God and everything about Him completely unbelievable, especially in the Bible, especially especially in supernatural realms including the afterlife, EXCEPT in Jesus.
So, due to Him, I have to believe, without even a mustard seed of faith, that the natural transcendence in the material world DOES continue impossibly beyond it.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
However, I can't get away from the idea that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the defining feature of the New Covenant, and that the whole essence of this New Covenant revolves around a relationship with God rather than mechanistic obedience to a rule.
That relationship* may well not revolve around the sort of thing we mostly seem to mean by "religious experience", but I think it does involve a subjective sense of "knowing" that goes beyond logic and reasoning alone.
I hope this subjective "knowing" and "mechanistic obedience" aren't the only two choices on offer. I don't profess either but still consider myself a Christian. Perhaps I'm wrong about that.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What is important for a Christian, in my view, is that belief in the Holy Spirit should make sense and, ultimately, have its root in some experiential knowledge on the part of the believer.
Okay, well, it seems I'm wrong.
According to whom? I quite clearly emphasised that this was my take and (in the part you opted not to quote) that others' mileage may vary.
If you want to argue for a different position, though, it would be polite to give your reasons. For my part, my objective reasons for seeing things this way revolve around the terms in which God promises the New Covenant in Jeremiah, i.e. in terms of the coming of the Spirit into our hearts, an idea I also find paralleled in the Gospels and the epistles. What's your take?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
John Wesley famously added "religious experience" to Scripture, tradition and reason to form a "quadrilateral" source of authority/ rubric for discernment. But Wesley was clear that experience was a only a means of confirming faith, not a means of determining faith or a source of new doctrine. His term was actually not "experience" but rather "experimental faith". I like that. I think it encourages us to "test" our faith-- to pray big, for example, to write down "leadings" and "test" them (the Quakers in particular have good "tests" for leadings). And to think of it the same way a scientist does an experiment-- iow, when you don't get the desired outcome, you aren't shattered, but rather, that is new data that needs to be considered. When you do get the results you want, that, too, is new data. All of which is just data-- observations-- that go into the mix (along, again, with Scripture, tradition and reason) of growing in your knowledge and understanding of God.
The approach to religious experience lends itself well to journalling-- writing down what you're praying for, what you think you might be "hearing" from God-- and then checking back 3, 4, 6 months later to see how it appears on later reflection. Again, in a non-anxious way but simply as data for further understanding.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The interesting thing, well, one interesting thing is that transcendence seems a natural process, whereas the supernatural is quite a stretch for some people.
Intriguingly well observed. Everything is spiritual. I find God and everything about Him completely unbelievable, especially in the Bible, especially especially in supernatural realms including the afterlife, EXCEPT in Jesus.
So, due to Him, I have to believe, without even a mustard seed of faith, that the natural transcendence in the material world DOES continue impossibly beyond it.
Fair enough, Martin. One of the things I got from Zen, was an admiration for this world. It seems complete.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Anteater - I would probably argue that this is all a spiritual experience is, but you need to understand the whole of what I was saying.
I have had what I would call religious experiences. With some hindsight, they were occasions where I could realise some of the truths about God that I know were actually true for me. I would probably at the time have said they were when God was reaching out to me, but now I might say they were times when I had some space for God.
As I have said in other places, I do believe in a God who intervenes. But I also believe that there is quite enough in what we know about Christianity, if we are prepared to spend time understanding it and making it real. We don't need God to intervene to understand. He does on occasions, but that is his prerogative, not something we "need" or should expect.
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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