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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Russian anti-gay bill passes, protesters detained
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I guess we knew this was coming. Doesn't make it any less horrid when it does.
quote:
A bill that stigmatizes Russia's gay community and bans the distribution of information about homosexuality to children was overwhelmingly approved by the lower house of parliament Tuesday.
More than two dozen protesters were attacked by anti-gay activists and then detained by police, hours before the State Duma approved the Kremlin-backed legislation in a 436-0 vote. The bill banning "propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations" still needs to be passed by the appointed upper house and signed into law by President Vladimir Putin, but neither step is in doubt.
The measure is part of an effort to promote traditional Russian values as opposed to Western liberalism, which the Kremlin and the Russian Orthodox Church see as corrupting Russian youth and contributing to the protests against Putin's rule.
Mustn't let people protest against Putin's rule. And Fuck The Patriarch for supporting this.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Russia, making American politics look sane since the 1920's.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And Fuck The Patriarch for supporting this.
Careful, now. Isn't that "propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations"?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And Fuck The Patriarch for supporting this.
Careful, now. Isn't that "propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations"?
Not if you photoshop it out of the pictures afterwards.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Good on the Russian government. They haven't forgotten their faith and make laws accordingly.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
The measure is part of an effort to promote traditional Russian values as opposed to Western liberalism, which the Kremlin and the Russian Orthodox Church see as corrupting Russian youth and contributing to the protests against Putin's rule.
Yeah, Reuters put a photo of some schoolboys practicing "traditional Russian values" at the top of this article. [Warning: unrelated video autoplays]
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Good on the Russian government. They haven't forgotten their faith and make laws accordingly.
Indeed. What could possibly go wrong with Russians remembering their faith and traditions? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
Quite a while ago now, I met a very talented journalist who turned out to have been at the same school as me but who was older than I was - completing her education when attitudes here weren't a whole lot better than Russia. Legalisation of gay people's relationships was still a relatively recent thing.
I'll never forget her telling me what it was like to feel like she was alone in the world, with no-one to turn to and believing she would always be alone all her life. She didn't know anyone else like herself and there were no openly gay people in public life or in the media that she knew about.
What finally pushed her over the edge at school was the favourite English teacher we had shared who was the only teacher in the school who mentioned homosexuality and she mentioned it only in dehumanising terms as a 'sickness'. Thus leading a brilliant and talented 15 year old girl to try to kill herself. That's what happens when you make sure gay children have no access to information, comfort and support. And imagine what that would have been like for her family too.
This is what you're wishing on people, Ad Orientem. This and worse. You're wishing misery and suicide attempts on lonely frightened children, and jail (and the violence that goes with state-sponsored persecution) on the brave ones who will try to reach them and comfort them. The views you support will ensure that many people in Russia, like that person who resembled me in almost every respect but that one, will end up isolated, living in misery or fear, taking their own lives or trying to take them.
I've looked at your other posts, and they don't seem to make a habit of wishing misery and harm on others, so I'm surprised at this, but your post is the equivalent of an extremist Muslim poster coming here and gloating about the persecution and stigmatisation of Coptic Christians. You know that many gay and lesbian people post here - yet your post gloats about legislation which will do great harm to people just like them.
Here's the sort of thing that's going on in Russia
quote:
The investigation informed news agencies that before killing Vlad, his attackers had "stripped the victim naked and set about forcing beer bottles into his rear passage. Two bottles went in whole, but the third only halfway. By this time the victim was already unconscious. His torturers placed cardboard boxes under his body and set them on fire, after which they decided to go back to their respective homes. They realised on the way that if he regained consciousness, he would call the police. They turned back, and one of them brought a rock weighing about 20 kilos which he brought down eight times on the victim's head."
The journalist who wrote this story now lives in fear.
quote:
I'm afraid even now. I'm afraid of going into an empty entrance to a block of flats. I'm afraid of walking down a side street at night. I am afraid. And a little sorry that I probably won't be allowed to continue working. They won't let me go back to television. I'm afraid and sorry. But I've got nothing to be ashamed of now.
It's hard to tackle homophobic violence when any attempt to educate against such attitudes is going to be categorised as the crime of "propaganda of non-traditional sexual relations". It's hard to reach frightened isolated young people when any attempt to do so may see you losing your job and prosecuted for telling them they're not the only person in the world of their kind, there's not something dreadfully wrong with them, they're not doomed to always be alone.
It's possible to hold conservative views on sexuality without supporting something so wicked as what is going on in Russia right now.
[ 12. June 2013, 02:28: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Good on the Russian government. They haven't forgotten their faith and make laws accordingly.
Perhaps you could point out where, in the gospel accounts of his earthly activities, Jesus commanded secular governments to pass laws against homosexuality?
I was a Christian only for 9 years or so, and I seem to have missed that bit.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Ad Orientem--
I don't believe you actually said that.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Presented for your consideration. Or here is a short film version.
Louise--
Great post, and ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) for all those in such situations.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And Fuck The Patriarch for supporting this.
Careful, now. Isn't that "propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations"?
Not if you photoshop it out of the pictures afterwards.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Good on the Russian government. They haven't forgotten their faith and make laws accordingly.
They have, however, forgotten that Jesus fellow. As do so many Christians, unfortunately.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Good on the Russian government. They haven't forgotten their faith and make laws accordingly.
They haven't finished the jobs till they remember to whip up the traditional anti-Semitism.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Good on the Russian government. They haven't forgotten their faith and make laws accordingly.
Indeed. What could possibly go wrong with Russians remembering their faith and traditions?
I invoke another variation of Godwin's Law here.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Good on the Russian government. They haven't forgotten their faith and make laws accordingly.
Indeed. What could possibly go wrong with Russians remembering their faith and traditions?
I invoke another variation of Godwin's Law here.
Feel free. You're still praising a bigoted* law that will have negative consequences that are easily predictable.
*To pre-empt the usual shite, you're not "bigoted" because of your beliefs about the proper expression of sexuality. You're a bigot when you use the law to enforce that on everyone else. As in here.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It seems semi-fascist to me, and will no doubt lead to more anti-gay violence, which is being legitimized.
Is it also possibly a testimony to the gay movement, that such repressive laws have to be passed? I mean, that the gay movement will not go away, so draconian laws are brought in?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
It's possible to hold conservative views on sexuality without supporting something so wicked as what is going on in Russia right now.
I hold fairly conservative view on sexuality and I think this law is disgusting.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I invoke another variation of Godwin's Law here.
That will not do you any good in this debate. Louise has already raised the moral bar way above that.
Let me put it another way. If your post was not gloating, what aspect of Christian morality was informing your comment? This Russian Law has released hatred. Hatred has been given free rein against people who are different. How can that conform, in any sense that I can understand, to Christian morality as it applies to hatred, or to those who are different?
And I am not talking here about anything you might regard as revisonist or new, or a departure from traditional sexual morality. I'm thinking of the central teaching of Jesus in the Beatitudes, in the Sermon on the Mount more generally and the many demonstrations of inclusion by Jesus to those considered "outside the law".
Where is the love? Of God or of neighbour?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
The Russian law is not about hatred, even if some use it as an excuse (such should be dealt with by the law). It's about preventing gay propaganda and this is not contrary to the Gospel.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
The Russian law is not about hatred, even if some use it as an excuse (such should be dealt with by the law). It's about preventing gay propaganda and this is not contrary to the Gospel.
I was chatting with a friend about this a couple of weeks ago. I'm far along the liberal side of the spectrum, believing the law should interfere as little as possible with people's private lives, but my mate was saying he opposes the gay / equal marriage legislation in the UK because it will lead to more sin happening. Assuming for a moment that homosexual acts are indeed sinful (personally I'm unsure on this), I struggled for a cogent argument against what my friend said.
But that horrendous killing in Russia makes it clearer for me, I think. State-led approval of one way of living over another can so easily lead to hatred and even violence against those who wish to live in a way the state considers sub-optimal.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
The law is about marginalising people, it is about denying people basic rights like education about sexuality and sexual health so that they can make informed choices about their behaviour and thus about their wellbeing.
In fact, in the long run, the bill is tantamount to the state sponsoring the next round of increases in sexually transmitted infections with all the attached costs, not just in financial terms, to the state and to society.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
The Russian law is not about hatred, even if some use it as an excuse (such should be dealt with by the law). It's about preventing gay propaganda and this is not contrary to the Gospel.
I was chatting with a friend about this a couple of weeks ago. I'm far along the liberal side of the spectrum, believing the law should interfere as little as possible with people's private lives, but my mate was saying he opposes the gay / equal marriage legislation in the UK because it will lead to more sin happening. Assuming for a moment that homosexual acts are indeed sinful (personally I'm unsure on this), I struggled for a cogent argument against what my friend said.
But that horrendous killing in Russia makes it clearer for me, I think. State-led approval of one way of living over another can so easily lead to hatred and even violence against those who wish to live in a way the state considers sub-optimal.
A cogent argument against what your mate said would be that by the same logic we should make laws against adultery. The law is not religion's tool for enforcing particular moral codes upon people, or at the least it bloody well shouldn't be. No-one gets to impose their rules on me solely because they think their God's got a bee in his bonnet about something.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Thinking about the role of Russian Christians in this, I'm not surprised that many support the bigotry and hate against gays. After all, reactionary and fascist governments have often had a lot of Christian support - think of Franco's Spain and Salazar's Portugal. It's not difficult really to support the dark side.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Thinking about the role of Russian Christians in this, I'm not surprised that many support the bigotry and hate against gays. After all, reactionary and fascist governments have often had a lot of Christian support - think of Franco's Spain and Salazar's Portugal. It's not difficult really to support the dark side.
It scares me. It's why I run a mile from talk of "Christian country" and leaders promoting "Christian principles" in legislation. There are too many closet theocrats out there who'd dearly love to make everyone dance to their tune.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Thinking about the role of Russian Christians in this, I'm not surprised that many support the bigotry and hate against gays. After all, reactionary and fascist governments have often had a lot of Christian support - think of Franco's Spain and Salazar's Portugal. It's not difficult really to support the dark side.
It scares me. It's why I run a mile from talk of "Christian country" and leaders promoting "Christian principles" in legislation. There are too many closet theocrats out there who'd dearly love to make everyone dance to their tune.
Spot on. As soon as Christianity becomes politicized, I find it very leery. So often it becomes authoritarian, nationalistic, repressive, and so on. Secularism is the only sensible position for me. Keep Christians out of government, as they are toxic.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I wouldn't go that far. But Christians qua Christians with a mission to bring the country "back to God's laws" - which suspiciously often seems to mean being generally unpleasant to gay people and women can just fuck off back to the middle-ages.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
The Russian law is not about hatred, even if some use it as an excuse (such should be dealt with by the law). It's about preventing gay propaganda and this is not contrary to the Gospel.
This seems naive. This new law looks to be a part of Putin’s increasingly authoritarian approach to civil society. It also seems to offend against the Russian constitution, which guarantees freedom of expression, and the European Convention on Human Rights, which Russian has signed.
On the surface, the law appears to be aimed at prohibiting the dissemination of so-called gay propaganda (whatever that means) to minors. In practice it seems likely to prohibit the public availability of information about gayness in any place where a minor could see it. It will also hamstring any public advocacy of rights on this matter; rights which are already guaranteed in principle by the Russian Constitution and the European Convention.
This is not a declaration in support of a particular view of morality. This is an assertion of control which targets a minority and has already resulted in violence. It does not deserve any support for these very obvious reasons.
As others have said, it is possible to have traditional Christian views about gay people and be trenchantly opposed to this act.
If you were not fully aware of the wider issues, then perhaps your support was understandable. if you were, then I remain perplexed.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Karl
That's what I mean really. I don't mean that any politician who is a Christian should be disbarred; but we know that any 'Christian Party' or 'Christian Democratic' party is going to be right-wing, repressive, and bigoted.
[ 12. June 2013, 11:33: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
A cogent argument against what your mate said would be that by the same logic we should make laws against adultery. The law is not religion's tool for enforcing particular moral codes upon people, or at the least it bloody well shouldn't be. No-one gets to impose their rules on me solely because they think their God's got a bee in his bonnet about something.
Yes, I think I raised this very point. My friend's answer was that he opposed new laws which would result in more sin happening, but introducing laws to stop sin that's already happening is unlikely ever to come about. It was a pragmatic acceptance of what he thought was possible, though; IIRC my friend didn't try to draw a moral distinction between the two types of legislation.
Fundamentally, I don't think the law's purpose is to reduce sin but I've been finding it hard to defend that viewpoint logically. It just feels right, which isn't always a great basis for one's views. Help me out, someone...? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Sin according to whom? Why should your friend's definition of sin, which includes gay sex, trump mine, which doesn't?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Thinking about the role of Russian Christians in this, I'm not surprised that many support the bigotry and hate against gays. After all, reactionary and fascist governments have often had a lot of Christian support - think of Franco's Spain and Salazar's Portugal. It's not difficult really to support the dark side.
It scares me. It's why I run a mile from talk of "Christian country" and leaders promoting "Christian principles" in legislation. There are too many closet theocrats out there who'd dearly love to make everyone dance to their tune.
And then there's the issue of whose theology runs the theocracy. I wouldn't want Jews or Muslims (say) telling me what I can and cannot eat, not least because I'm very fond of pork scratchings...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Sin according to whom? Why should your friend's definition of sin, which includes gay sex, trump mine, which doesn't?
I think he'd defend your right to legislate as you saw fit, if you were in a position to do so. If you legislated to reduce the amount of sin (as you understood 'sin') then my friend would be okay with that. It's an admirably consistent position but it does open up the possibility of a Muslim or Jewish leader banning pork scratchings... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
And also stuff like what's happening in Russia, of course. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
The Russian law is not about hatred, even if some use it as an excuse (such should be dealt with by the law). It's about preventing gay propaganda and this is not contrary to the Gospel.
This seems naive. This new law looks to be a part of Putin’s increasingly authoritarian approach to civil society. It also seems to offend against the Russian constitution, which guarantees freedom of expression, and the European Convention on Human Rights, which Russian has signed.
On the surface, the law appears to be aimed at prohibiting the dissemination of so-called gay propaganda (whatever that means) to minors. In practice it seems likely to prohibit the public availability of information about gayness in any place where a minor could see it. It will also hamstring any public advocacy of rights on this matter; rights which are already guaranteed in principle by the Russian Constitution and the European Convention.
This is not a declaration in support of a particular view of morality. This is an assertion of control which targets a minority and has already resulted in violence. It does not deserve any support for these very obvious reasons.
As others have said, it is possible to have traditional Christian views about gay people and be trenchantly opposed to this act.
If you were not fully aware of the wider issues, then perhaps your support was understandable. if you were, then I remain perplexed.
If a person wants their children to be taught about gay sex at school, that homosexual relationships are normal and equal to heterosexual ones then fine, but it seems Russians don't want their children to be subjected to that and Russia still is an Orthodox country, its faith is once more thriving etc. the legislators are responding to that.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Good on the Russian government. They haven't forgotten their faith and make laws accordingly.
Indeed. What could possibly go wrong with Russians remembering their faith and traditions?
I invoke another variation of Godwin's Law here.
Godwin's law wasn't intended to stifle all conversation about authoritarian policies or to suppress history. If you're going to claim that the current Russian policy of censorship and mob violence against an unpopular minority is a refreshing return to traditional (i.e. Czarist) Russian faith, I'm not sure how the comparison can be avoided.
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
The Russian law is not about hatred, even if some use it as an excuse (such should be dealt with by the law). It's about preventing gay propaganda and this is not contrary to the Gospel.
First off, doesn't advocating the prosecution of gay bashers count as "homosexual propaganda" under the new law? Second, isn't having the police authorities ignore (or even promote) mob violence against unpopular minorities part of that traditional Russian faith you find so appealing?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
If a person wants their children to be taught about [Judaism] at school, that [Jews] are normal and equal to [Christians] then fine, but it seems Russians don't want their children to be subjected to that and Russia still is an Orthodox country, its faith is once more thriving etc. the legislators are responding to that.
There. Now it's more traditionally Russian. You may consider that to be unfair, but I'm not sure that it's possible to argue that discrimination against one minority is justified but the other isn't. If you'd rather have a Soviet-era example not steeped in blatant anti-Semitism, here you go.
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
If a person wants their children to be taught about [kulaks] at school, that [kulaks] are normal and equal to [workers] then fine, but it seems Russians don't want their children to be subjected to that and Russia still is a [Communist] country, its [doctrine] is once more thriving etc. the legislators are responding to that.
Again, I'm not sure there's anything other than arbitrary prejudice involved in claims that it would be totally wrong to single out [Jews/kulaks/homosexuals/whatever] for particular sanction by the state, but the [homosexuals/Jews/kulaks/whatever] are a totally different case who completely deserve it.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Yes, the Orthodox marginalizing and killing non-Orthodox is indeed traditional Russian culture. "Tradition" in this sense may be overrated.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
It's not just Christians, of course - Buddhists in Sri Lanka where the Abbots, or some of them, have the say so on so many issues, Taliban in Afghanistan and many more - all equivalents of the Church in Spain and Portugal under the fascists.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Yes, the Orthodox marginalizing and killing non-Orthodox is indeed traditional Russian culture. "Tradition" in this sense may be overrated.
Holy Russia with its pogroms, which I think were cynically used by different Tsars to get the mob on their side, and avoid criticism of the corrupt regime. But surely Putin wouldn't do this, would he?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
On the surface, the law appears to be aimed at prohibiting the dissemination of so-called gay propaganda (whatever that means) to minors. In practice it seems likely to prohibit the public availability of information about gayness in any place where a minor could see it.
"whatever that means." Exactly.
Because my first thought when reading that was that you could call anything you wanted "propaganda", and any message depicting gay people as having healthy, productive lives, or condemning discrimination, would be seen as propaganda. That's removing an entire voice from the debate, and that is far too much power for the State to take upon itself.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
If a person wants their children to be taught about gay sex at school, that homosexual relationships are normal and equal to heterosexual ones then fine, but it seems Russians don't want their children to be subjected to that and Russia still is an Orthodox country, its faith is once more thriving etc. the legislators are responding to that.
Out of curiosity, how does any alleged branch of Christianity "thrive" from condoning violence toward the marginalized?
And you haven't answered my earlier question about where Christ taught followers to encourage secular governments to pass laws against homosexuality.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
If a person wants their children to be taught about gay sex at school, that homosexual relationships are normal and equal to heterosexual ones then fine, but it seems Russians don't want their children to be subjected to that and Russia still is an Orthodox country, its faith is once more thriving etc. the legislators are responding to that.
Out of curiosity, how does any alleged branch of Christianity "thrive" from condoning violence toward the marginalized?
And you haven't answered my earlier question about where Christ taught followers to encourage secular governments to pass laws against homosexuality.
I said the Orthodox faith in Russia is once again thriving and as such Russia can be considered an Orthodox country and legislates taking that into consideration. The only reason we don't do that is because we no longer define our nations in such as way, that is, as being principly Christian. Neither the Russian legislator nor the Orthodox faith encourages violence against gays.
As for the last part, where does it say in Gospels does it say we shouldn't? Does the Russian state even portray itself as secular anyway?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
You do remember the famous scene where he said, "Stone the bitch" right?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Out of curiosity, how does any alleged branch of Christianity "thrive" from condoning violence toward the marginalized?
Typically by eliminating intellectual competitors. There's a lengthy list of heretics and adherents of rival faiths who have been kept at the margins of society through Church-condoned violence.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I said the Orthodox faith in Russia is once again thriving and as such Russia can be considered an Orthodox country and legislates taking that into consideration. The only reason we don't do that is because we no longer define our nations in such as way, that is, as being principly Christian. Neither the Russian legislator nor the Orthodox faith encourages violence against gays.
Perhaps you should pass that along to those folks in the Georgian Orthodox Church?
quote:
Some of the priests leading the rock-throwing throngs who stormed past police cordons could be seen participating in the melee; one repeatedly slammed a stool into the windshield of one of several minibuses trying to carry the marchers to safety, while another punched marchers and tried to drag a driver out of a bus. Some gave their names in interviews.
There seems to be a decent size faction within at least one branch of the Orthodox faith that goes far beyond simply "encourag[ing] violence against gays".
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
That certain people who are Orthodox have committed a certain act is not the same as the Orthodox faith encouraging such an act. Surely you realise that?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
That certain people who are Orthodox have committed a certain act is not the same as the Orthodox faith encouraging such an act. Surely you realise that?
Indeed. But clergy are usually assumed to have a pretty good grasp of a faith's precepts. If you have numerous rock-throwing priests leading a riot and administering beat-downs, followed by (as far as I've been able to determine) a complete lack of consequences, that's pretty good prima facie evidence that a faith supports (or at least doesn't oppose) anti-gay violence.
It seems very difficult to reconcile the idea that "Russia still is an Orthodox country, its faith is once more thriving" with the proposition that the rise in anti-gay violence in Russia has nothing to do with the increasingly anti-gay preaching of the Orthodox church.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
That certain people who are Orthodox have committed a certain act is not the same as the Orthodox faith encouraging such an act. Surely you realise that?
When those people who are (apparently) breaking the law are not merely Orthodox but Orthodox priests, one wonder just how true this is to Russia's faith and if it is, what kind of faith it is. Muslims must be looking on in some bewilderment.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Ad Orientem--
Have you had a chance to read the first link in my earlier post? It's pertinent, and won't take long.
Thanks.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
As for the last part, where does it say in Gospels does it say we shouldn't? Does the Russian state even portray itself as secular anyway?
I can't speak for the Russian state, of course. But given some reasonably recent history involving communism, one would suspect that many Russians might still be inclined toward secular views of statehood.
I take it, then, that you consider activities not expressly forbidden in the Gospels to be morally acceptable. As the Gospels record no comment from Jesus on homosexuality during his brief ministry, surely that too passes this test? Yet you seem to take issue with it.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I said the Orthodox faith in Russia is once again thriving and as such Russia can be considered an Orthodox country and legislates taking that into consideration.
I just don't understand people who insist that the majority get to stomp like hell all over the human rights of the minority. It confuses me. Just because your gang is bigger doesn't mean I don't have the right to live my life.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
Ad Orientem,
Laws against persecuted groups which stigmatise them as a menace to society help to loosen social inhibitions against all sorts of attacks. Alas, you could ask Pakistani Christians how the added clauses to the blasphemy laws there in the 1980s worked for them in terms of increased harassment, trumped-up charges and murder...
You could also ask them how the word 'blasphemy' had its meaning extended to catch any action that a persecutor could possibly take offence to. Christians have been targeted over matters as trivial as taking ashes to a dump or not offering glass of water. 'Propaganda' is another of those nice vague menacing words like 'blasphemy' which can mean what ever someone wants it to mean against a scapegoated group.
As well as stretching the meaning, you can always plant evidence too - as was done to a 14 year old developmentally-disabled girl to bring a case to help foment riots against Christians. When you put a legal weapon in the hands of persecutors who're vehement against a scapegoated minority group, that's the kind of thing that happens.
This isn't a unique or rare phenomenon - sadly the way these sort of laws work against stigmatised groups is well-documented though time and around the world.
If we don't want to be complicit in violence and persecution, then we can't support such laws.
Gay people exist in Russia just as Christians do in Pakistan. Some people might wish they didn't, and might want them to live in fear of speaking out to protect themselves or to protect others. But anyone who takes seriously that we should treat others as we wish to be treated, and not behave like the wicked servant in the parable who was forgiven by his master only to turn ruthlessly on the servant who lay at his mercy would wish for gay people in Russia to live safely with the right to free speech, publication, broadcast, and teaching to support each other, just as we would wish the same for Christians in Pakistan.
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Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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