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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Matthew 25:41... Depart from me into the eternal fire
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Simon
Editor
# 1
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Posted
Verse nominated by Orlando
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" (Matthew 25:41, in context)
Orlando comments: OK, I like the fact that this sheep and goats story deals with those who have compassion for others or don't, not just with "faith", but I don't like this line, which is one of a few in the NT which suggest Jesus might have taught eternal punishment in hell.
How much of a problem is this verse? Click "Vote Now" to cast your vote!
[ 03. August 2009, 20:07: Message edited by: Simon ]
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Eternal memory
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sanityman
Shipmate
# 11598
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Posted
I'm suprised this hasn't garnered more interest: hell is usually a hot topic ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) . I wonder though: do people take the parable of sheep and goats as a description of the Last Judgement, or as an illustration of who is righteous and who isn't, using a well-known form of the day? If it is the Judgement, ISTM you have salvation by works from the mouth of Christ! If allegorical OTOH, the fiery Hell issue goes away.
Of course, that still leaves chunks of Revelation to explain ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
- Chris.
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Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only the wind will listen - TS Eliot
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Simon:
Orlando comments: [snip] I don't like this line, which is one of a few in the NT which suggest Jesus might have taught eternal punishment in hell.
Except that it doesn't. The wording is quite clear: the fires are eternal. whether the cursed stay there for eternity remains moot.
[ 11. August 2009, 09:39: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Also, it is right in the middle of a long apocalyptic passage. I'm not sure that we should necessarily take it literally any more than we should think there really are Seven Scrolls and Seven Cups of God's Wrath or whatever.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Orlando098
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# 14930
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The wording is quite clear: the fires are eternal. whether the cursed stay there for eternity remains moot.
... but only a few verses later it says: 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Maybe I should have posted that bit instead..
Anyway what would be the point of fires that were only used once for burning up sinners but then kept burning eternally?
I agree however that it could be not meant to be literal and/or maybe Jesus never said it anyway
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Kid Who Cracked
Shipmate
# 13963
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Posted
Also, the word for "eternal" is "aionian" (or aeonian). The same word is used to describe the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah. Aion and its forms are used in contexts not meaning lasting forever. According to William Barclay:
quote:
Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.
Sources:
William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, pg 65-67, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977
http://www.tentmaker.org/biographies/barclay.htm
That said, he may very well have meant "eternal".
If someone knows more about the Greek....help would be appreciated.
This verse still bugs the stuff out of me, since "eternal" still seems to be what was likely meant in the passage.
[ 11. August 2009, 20:16: Message edited by: Kid Who Cracked ]
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
I always figured the point of the passage was to take care of the people around you who weren't being taken care of. The rest is just intensification.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
There's a genuine debate over whether "eternal" here means eternal in duration or in consequences.
Personally, I think that eternal existence for the unsaved is taught clearly enough in passages like Isaiah 66 and Revelation 14 that we can't just assume this verse teaches annihilationism.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
There's a genuine debate over whether "eternal" here means eternal in duration or in consequences.
Hm, was thinking that, too. If pruning is indeed the metaphor, chopping a dead branch can be considered a punishment that is everlasting in the sense that it is final.
[ 13. August 2009, 03:42: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
This thread has been very interesting and enlightening!
So if we're talking remedial punishment, and the "eternal" refers to consequences, maybe we can think of the benefit of the remedial punishment to be eternal - in other words, it makes its correction and you're healed. For good. [ETA: but even that, I think, would be taking things too literally. "Judgment", I think, means not a handing down of a sentence, but a gracious revelation of God's character and our failings from it so that we may be oriented towards God.]
Of course, looking at this passage in particular, I would agree with sanityman - that Jesus is using the apocalyptic of the day as his literary device, so to speak, in order to teach us what we ought to do if we are his disciples.
[ 18. August 2009, 02:22: Message edited by: churchgeek ]
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Personally, I think that eternal existence for the unsaved is taught clearly enough in passages like Isaiah 66 and Revelation 14 that we can't just assume this verse teaches annihilationism.
Though Isaiah 66 refers to "corpses", i.e. insentient things.
(To be honest the Last Things are a profound question mark in my worldview. I really don't know what I believe.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
I'm with Churchgeek and Sanityman on this. The language is that of parable, and is what the people listening to Jesus would have understood.
My father once said to me that he could never condemn a child of his to burning, and he didn't believe that God was less merciful than one of his own creation. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I don't take the metaphor of burning literally, but as a cradle Catholic have been turned from the thought of suicide by the thought of Hell. And that's a real bummer, since I don't intellectually believe in the place. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Not that I'm sorry to be alive now. ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
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BWSmith
Shipmate
# 2981
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Posted
This is one of many passages about Gehenna, the perpetually burning trash heap outside Jerusalem in the valley of the son of Hinnom.
It's an image originally used by Jeremiah to prophecy how Jerusalem would eventually become an extension of its own garbage dump when Babylon attacks.
Jesus uses the same imagery to predict the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. (And while he certainly meant more than the physical event itself, He did not mean less...)
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Hamp
Apprentice
# 15362
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Posted
We know that the four Gospels were written by four different people in different places at different times over a 6o year period after the death of Jesus. We do not know who these people were although the later Church gave them names. The four Gospel writers never met Jesus. They knew Jesus only through the oral and written material that reached them. From this material they each saw Jesus a little differently. We think the author of Matthew had a problem with the Jews in his community. If we accept the above, then we and the writer of Matthew cannot know if this was said by Jesus or in what context. Maybe Matthew just choose this material out of his bias for his fellow Jews?
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hamp:
If we accept the above, then we and the writer of Matthew cannot know if this was said by Jesus or in what context. Maybe Matthew just choose this material out of his bias for his fellow Jews?
Except that similar accounts and descriptions are found in all of the gospels as well as in the Epistles and Revelation.
Here are some examples of what is said, not just in Matthew but throughout the New Testament. The passages provide a fairly consistent idea of the fate of "the wicked."
Some passages speak of "hell", which "gehenna" or "sheol":
quote:
Matthew 5:22 But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.
Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
Matthew 23:33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Other passages say similar things about "Hades":
quote:
Matthew 11:23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades
Luke 10:15 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades.
Matthew 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Luke 16:23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom….28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’
Acts 2:27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
1 Corinthians 15:55 “ O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”
Revelation 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Revelation 6:8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him.
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Other passages do not always mention a place, but speak about "destruction":
quote:
2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Others convey similar ideas with the words "outer darkness":
quote:
Matthew 8:12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 25:30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Luke 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.
As is well known, other passages speak of "fire": quote:
Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Others speak of "everlasting punishment":
quote:
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.
So it's not just Matthew. I think the picture is fairly consistent. It is also consistent with Old Testament passages.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hamp
Apprentice
# 15362
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Posted
Freddy
You know these people writing these Gospels have only there human concept of Hell and the material they got from Mark,"Q" and the OT. I would guess John's idea of Hell would conduct that would greve God and separate you from his love. I like this take better.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
I like John's take on it too. He does not say much directly about hell, although he talks quite a bit about the devil.
What he does say, though, is essentially the same thing as the quote that is the subject of this thread:
quote:
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
So whether by John's witness or Matthew's the end for some appears to involve burning.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
I'm suprised this hasn't garnered more interest: hell is usually a hot topic. I wonder though: do people take the parable of sheep and goats as a description of the Last Judgement, or as an illustration of who is righteous and who isn't, using a well-known form of the day? If it is the Judgement, ISTM you have salvation by works from the mouth of Christ! If allegorical OTOH, the fiery Hell issue goes away.
Of course, that still leaves chunks of Revelation to explain
My view is that the doctrine of hell does not have a legalistic basis, but is to do with the spiritual reality of a person's heart, from which flow good or evil actions ("a good tree cannot bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit").
One of the really gruesome verses from Revelation is as follows:
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolators, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. Revelation 21:8
I've heard this quoted on various occasions throughout my Christian life, with particular emphasis on the word "cowardly". It has been used as a means of "motivating" and, to use that great euphemism of muscular (sadistic) Christianity, to encourage Christians to "get off their backsides and save the lost" - or else!! (BTW, this biblical steroid may build up our spiritual muscles in the short-term, but the long-term effects are more likely to be counter-productive, as, alas, I have discovered.)
But the problem with so many so-called "evangelicals" (supposedly "good news" people) is that they don't understand the word "context". (The most extreme example is "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", forgetting that this is - according to my Bible - only 9.02% of the sentence in which it appears - never mind the context of the chapter and book!! The sentence goes on to say "... being justified freely by His grace...." - the present passive participle "being justified" refers to whom? Answer: all who have sinned. Not a happy saying for the Calvinists, methinks.)
The context of Revelation 21:8 is what goes before it (i.e. verses 6-7):
And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be my son." [emphasis mine]
In other words (putting reformed evangelical brainwashing to one side), Jesus offers the water of life - a.k.a. salvation - to anyone who is in need of it. And this water is offered freeeeeeely!!! What does the word "freely" mean? To anyone who has fulfilled the gnostic condition of crossing every doctrinal "t" and dotting every "i" before his spirit leaves his body? No, that is not the meaning of the word "freely". "Freely" means "without condition" - any condition. Although there is one "condition" - you have to "thirst" (hardly a real condition, is it?)
So Jesus offers this water to everyone. That's the first bit of the deal. And then - and only then - do we come to the knotty problem of those who decline this water of life. They, I'm afraid, have to live with the consequences of their own pride. These people are described in terms of their particular forms of evil, but they all have one thing in common - they have wilfully rejected the free grace and love of God.
God still loves them, even though he is angry at their rejection of his love (love can be angry, as we know). Does God then try to find a way to torture these people as revenge for being snubbed?
No, since Revelation 14:10 tells us that the wicked are tormented in the presence of the Lamb - a clear reference to "Christ crucified" (see the usage of "Lamb" in Revelation 5:6). The same Jesus Christ who prayed on the cross "Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing" is the same Jesus Christ who suffers in the midst of the wicked. Proof, if ever anyone needed it that God cannot condemn someone who is genuinely ignorant!! How can "Christ crucified" pray for God's mercy on the ignorant one minute and then do the opposite throughout all eternity (especially as we know that Jesus Christ does not change - Hebrews 13:8).
I would like to suggest that the lake of fire in Revelation 21:8 is actually God Himself. "Our God IS a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29). And God is love. It is the very love of God which is the agent of torment in hell. A person who is, by nature, evil cannot abide the presence of God, and the forgiving, compassionate love of God is a nightmare to the one who is unrepentant and proud and who delights in seeing others suffer.
William Booth, founder of the Salvation Army, once said (so I am led to understand) that he wished his workers could spend one night in hell so that they could understand the urgency of their evangelistic task. While appreciating his concern, I have to say that I think it is actually impossible for a true believer to experience hell, since hell is God Himself. Hell does not exist for the person who is in a right relationship with God. How can it?
Without wishing to trivialise spiritual things, it's a bit like saying that someone who loves Marmite has to spend a night hating it! It just ain't possible. Some people love it, some hate it. It's as simple as that.
This is my understanding, and I have not yet found any Scriptures to refute it. Matthew 25 - the parable of the sheep and the goats - may give the impression that damnation is the result of sins of omission, but why do people fail to love? As Jesus said "a good tree cannot bear bad fruit" and vice versa. Good and bad works are the outflow of a person's nature. So what we are vis-a-vis the love of God is what really matters, not whether we've racked up enough Brownie points.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
So what we are vis-a-vis the love of God is what really matters, not whether we've racked up enough Brownie points.
I think I agree with you right down the line. Thanks for your post.
The bedrock assumptions here, I think, are that God loves everyone and that at the deepest level people, not God, are responsible for their own unhappiness.
You can't make someone else happy, because happiness and unhappiness are inherent in the individual response to God's love.
That is, God's love is about loving and serving others and is received by people who love those same things. So if I don't love what God loves His presence will be uncomfortable for me. In the extreme this translates into what is called the fire of hell.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hamp
Apprentice
# 15362
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Posted
I agree with Freddy idea of Hell! Until someone goes there and comes back with an autographed pitchfork let us just say no one can testify to it's existence any more than you or I.
Posts: 47 | From: Winston Salem NC | Registered: Dec 2009
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Hamp
Apprentice
# 15362
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Posted
Everyone please, I am not a scholar, expert or anything of the sort. Most of what I know about the Bible comes from taking these courses:
The Writings of the Apostolic Fathers
From Jesus to Constantine
Historical Jesus
Lost Christianities
New Testament
The Making of the New Testament Canon
Apostle Paul
Jesus and the Gospels
Story of the Bible
Exploring the Roots of Religion
Early Christianity
History of Christian Theology
Philosophy of Religion
Great Figures of the New Testament
Old Testament
Natural Law and Human Nature
The Catholic Church: A History
Popes and the Papacy
Book of Genesis
Skeptics and Believers: Religious Debate in the Western Intellectual Tradition
Luther: Gospel, Law, and Reformation
Augustine: Philosopher and Saint
Late Antiquity: Crisis and Transformation
Great World Religions
Emperors of Rome
Religion in the Ancient Mediterranean World.
Are the professors who give these courses scholars, authorities, experts? In my opinion you have to take the course and decide for your self. The courses are available to all. What I do is pick out of the courses what I think are religious sticky points and post them with the hope that someone out there will have a source that throws a different light on the point.
Hamp
Posts: 47 | From: Winston Salem NC | Registered: Dec 2009
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Please, I don't like spam.
Email me if you think you can convince me to un-ban you.
-RooK
Admin
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