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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Lucy Meadows
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Mrs Shrew
Ship's Mother
# 8635
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Posted
A teacher has died, with the police using the terminology which normally means suicide.
She has been hounded by press since Christmas and and article in the Daily Mail, because her school supported her to return to work after the Christmas break known by her new name of Miss Meadows (previously Mr.....).
Press have been camped outside her house and the school, haranguing parents and teachers, and writing hand wringing articles over damage to children.
For fucks sake - do none of them actually consider that seeing their teacher hounded and miserable because of the press, having their school environment interefered with by crowds of reporters and then having to deal with grief at her death might actually be the damaging thing for these children?
I'm just so bloody angry and frustrated that this is STILL HAPPENING even with all the publicity around the Leveson enquiry. And that people would actually think it is okay to do this to someone.
A friend said that what really hurts them is knowing this woman wont be the last, and being helpless to stop this happening again to others. I'm inclined to agree.
Link (its from the guardian, so pretty left wing, but it isn't behind a pay wall. Searching will bring up a ton of others)
[ 10. November 2014, 18:26: Message edited by: Belisarius ]
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"The goal of life is not to make other people in your own image, it is to understand that they, too, are in God's image" (Orfeo)
Was "mummyfrances".
Posts: 703 | From: York, England | Registered: Oct 2004
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Horrific! ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) Lucy
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Shrew:
A teacher has died, with the police using the terminology which normally means suicide.
She has been hounded by press since Christmas and and article in the Daily Mail, because her school supported her to return to work after the Christmas break known by her new name of Miss Meadows (previously Mr.....).
A teacher or pupil at a primary school changing sex and returning to the same school is, I think, worthy of some discussion. I've never tried to explain transsexuals to a five-year-old: I know some children who would shrug their shoulders and say "OK", and some who I suspect wouldn't stop asking questions. I know I would prefer not to have that conversation, but I don't know that my preferences outweigh the preference of a teacher or pupil undergoing a sex change to remain at the same school.
So I can't fault the initial article - I think there's a legitimate discussion to be had. I also couldn't fault a follow-up article three months later, say, that discussed how the new Miss Meadows had been accepted into the school community.
But the kind of prurient scum that lurks about trying to sneak photos of her (probably for no better reason than a nasty little piece in some tabloid called "I bet you can tell she's a man really" or something, are beyond the pale.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
Very sorry to hear about this.
for her and those who were close to her.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
There are probably some issues about how transexuals manage their transformation socially and how institutions can support them, especially in environments such as schools that need to be worked through and it's comparatively early days in this process but for the media to behave in such a cruel, harassing and invasive way is quite unforgivable. FFS, I thought the phone tapping scandal had at least made the bottom feeders at least a bit scared of the consequences of their callous disregard for feelings and common standards of decency.
for Lucy, her family and the school community
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
Richard Littlejohn is scum of the first order. His article vanished from the Mail website pretty damn sharpish after news of the suicide emerged, and the Mail has been unusually reticent on the subject. Littlejohn epitomizes all that is wrong with tabloid journalism in the UK. His "opinion" pieces are nothing more than onanistic malice. I am sure that karma will visit Mr Littlejohn.
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Wot passer said. This Uncyclopedia tells you everything you need to know about him.
Richard Littlejohn clearly has something very wrong with his sexuality. See here:
quote:
A nagging feeling that, to some, anything to do with homosexuality remains fascinatingly transgressive forces us to conduct the annual Littlejohn audit. Behold then the results. In the past year's Sun columns, Richard has referred 42 times to gays, 16 times to lesbians, 15 to homosexuals, eight to bisexuals, twice to "homophobia" and six to being "homophobic" (note his scornful inverted commas), five times to cottaging, four to "gay sex in public toilets", three to poofs, twice to lesbianism, and once each to buggery, dykery, and poovery. This amounts to 104 references in 90-odd columns - an impressive increase on his 2003 total of 82 mentions.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I dislike Littlejohn and I'm having trouble finding the column that he wrote. From the extracts that I have read, though, he appears to express himself in a measured way. The broad thrust of his argument is that children might be confused by the sight of their teacher changing gender and that their welfare ought to be the primary consideration.
He doesn't say that Lucy Meadows is a bad teacher or that she shouldn't be allowed to teach, but suggested that, post-transition, she ought to have found a new teaching post where she could start afresh.
He may or may not be correct there. I don't have strong views on the subject. But it seems to me that the opinion he has advanced is not beyond the realms of acceptable behaviour. It is certainly not anything like the caricature of him in that Uncyclopedia article, for example.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
He doesn't say that Lucy Meadows is a bad teacher or that she shouldn't be allowed to teach, but suggested that, post-transition, she ought to have found a new teaching post where she could start afresh.
The article is here. What he said includes:
quote:
By insisting on returning to St Mary Magdalen’s, he is putting his own selfish needs ahead of the well-being of the children he has taught for the past few years.
[...] If he cares so little for the sensibilities of the children he is paid to teach, he’s not only trapped in the wrong body, he’s in the wrong job.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Mrs Shrew
Ship's Mother
# 8635
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Posted
Note particularly from Ricardus' quote there, that he is refusing to use the feminine pronouns that Lucy had requested - this is downright rude.
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"The goal of life is not to make other people in your own image, it is to understand that they, too, are in God's image" (Orfeo)
Was "mummyfrances".
Posts: 703 | From: York, England | Registered: Oct 2004
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Shrew:
Note particularly from Ricardus' quote there, that he is refusing to use the feminine pronouns that Lucy had requested - this is downright rude.
But in the article generally he refers to Mr Upton, not Miss Meadows. Where he does refer to Miss Meadows he uses female pronouns.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Shrew:
Note particularly from Ricardus' quote there, that he is refusing to use the feminine pronouns that Lucy had requested - this is downright rude.
But in the article generally he refers to Mr Upton, not Miss Meadows. Where he does refer to Miss Meadows he uses female pronouns.
Not quite. The one occasion where he refers to Miss Meadows as "her", he's quoting somebody else, although there is one place where he has the "grace" to refer to her as "him/her"
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Mrs Shrew
Ship's Mother
# 8635
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Posted
Note particularly from Ricardus' quote there, that he is refusing to use the feminine pronouns that Lucy had requested - this is downright rude.
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"The goal of life is not to make other people in your own image, it is to understand that they, too, are in God's image" (Orfeo)
Was "mummyfrances".
Posts: 703 | From: York, England | Registered: Oct 2004
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
But why is such monstering considered acceptable? Why are trans people the last bastion of cheap titillation for the press? My answer is this. It is quite simply, due to alpha male patriarchy. The same type of people who snigger at Lucy Meadows are also journalists, because hey presto! Journalists have prejudices too, and the national press gives them a platform to air them.
An interesting perspective.
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Shrew:
Note particularly from Ricardus' quote there, that he is refusing to use the feminine pronouns that Lucy had requested - this is downright rude.
But in the article generally he refers to Mr Upton, not Miss Meadows. Where he does refer to Miss Meadows he uses female pronouns.
That would be like calling The Greatest Cassius Clay, instead of Muhammed Ali, in about 1973.
It's rude and disrespectful, but that's at the very "heart" of Littlejohn. He'd never have called Ali by his old name though, because he would have been afraid of having his lights knocked out, which wasn't the case with Lucy Meadows.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I've never tried to explain transsexuals to a five-year-old: I know some children who would shrug their shoulders and say "OK", and some who I suspect wouldn't stop asking questions. I know I would prefer not to have that conversation, but I don't know that my preferences outweigh the preference of a teacher or pupil undergoing a sex change to remain at the same school.
I don't understand why you anticipate this to be such a problem. To a five year old, "Mr X was very unhappy being a man - so doctors have helped him to turn into a woman. People don't do this very often, but it happens sometimes."
Children hear stories about people changing in extreme ways all the time, and they seem to cope, princes and frogs being the most common ...
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
People used not long ago to say that schoolchildren would be confused or frightened by having gay teachers, that if their male teacher's significant other was a man or their female teacher's other half was a woman that children would be confused and frightened or whatever.
Now only the most bonkers of right-wing bigots would trot out that idea. It's only going to be a matter of time, and probably not much of it, that transgender teachers are accepted too.
It's too late for this lady, and the press as a collective, and the individuals who made her life more difficult because of their own prejudice need to take a look at themselves, bigoted bastards, maybe someone'll learn something. In the meantime, it's desperately sad, for this poor teacher, for her family, and for her pupils who now will be confused and frightened for good reason, rather than for the imagined ones conjured up by the press and the reactionaries.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Now only the most bonkers of right-wing bigots would trot out that idea. It's only going to be a matter of time, and probably not much of it, that transgender teachers are accepted too.
You wish. Bigotry's a long time dying.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
There'll still be a few, but the general tide will eventually turn, and the prejudiced witch-hunters will find themselves more and more in the minority and no longer socially acceptable.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The press's pursuit of the freedom of the press has limits. Are no restraining orders and injunctions available there? Does not human rights legislation prevent discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, gender etc? Clearly she was harassed, and the level of it would warrant investigation for what in Canada would be a criminal offence for stalking/criminal harassment.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gextvedde
Shipmate
# 11084
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Posted
I wish I'd never heard this story. I wish the press (by which I mean amoral fucktards for whom anything is a fucking story) would realise that a lot of people don't want to read their bollocks opinions about other peoples lifestyles. I wish people like Miss Meadows could have got on with, what was clearly a difficult time, without these wankers hounding her. Fuck all of you and the shit rags you splutter your wankstained words out of.
For Lucy & family
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"We must learn to see that our temperament is a gift of God, a talent with which we must trade until he comes" Thomas Merton
Posts: 293 | From: The Twilight Zone, near the M25 | Registered: Feb 2006
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
I think that many children consider that most things that adults do and say are strange and conform to weird rules that haven't been fully explained yet.
When a friend married during the Easter holidays she returned to her reception class as Mrs Y, having been Miss X. The children had been very excited about the wedding and had made cards and drawn lovely pictures of the bride and groom. At the end of the first week of term a small boy asked her "what will you be called next week?" I'm sure he though that if she could change her name once she could do it again, because grown-ups might do anything.
Carefully explained and handled I don't think that these children need have found it any more difficult to cope with the knowledge that their teacher used to be Mr X and is now Miss Y. Because all grown-ups are strange and might do anything.
Their parents and other teachers, of course might well have found it more difficult, since their ideas of what grown-ups should and should not do have become fixed - and had more time to be influenced by the likes of Mr Littlejohn.
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
The reason adults think that children will have difficulty understanding something is usually because the adults are having the problem with comprehension. In my experience, children are remarkably flexible and open with their worldview.
Hell, y'all accept the Doctor's transitioned 11 times, what's so surprising about folks who are just doing it the once? (This, by the way, is courtesy of my dear friend, who's trans, and who I spent a lot of yesterday comforting because of this and several other pieces of news.)
Anyway, I hope the douchebag from the Daily Mail gets a very itchy infection that does not respond to antibiotics (where, precisely, said itchy infection is located I will leave up to God).
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
news
Arizona: Making Alaska look good since 1912.
Bless their little bronze age hearts.
[ 24. March 2013, 02:52: Message edited by: comet ]
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
It seems to me that it was very brave (verging on reckless) of Miss Meadows to return to the same school; many others would probably have tried to find a job somewhere else, and I wouldn't blame them. However, that doesn't excuse the scum-bags who have hounded her to her death.
The head of Information Services in my last job (in a multi-campus university) went through a sex-change operation about 15 years ago. As he was based on another campus I didn't know him (I only met him once - as a man) but I understand that he went on leave as Nigel and came back as Nicki. Like Lucy, he was married with a young family (older than hers: they were in primary school). Nigel/Nicki didn't stay in the job or the area for very long after the story broke; the area was generally better known for bigotry than tolerance.
It hit the local press at about the same time as a similar story broke nationally about an eminent Harley Street doctor who had treated the Queen Mother; it seemed that only the names had been changed. IIRC someone remarked (of the doctor) that he had chosen to remain as a man until he got to the top of his profession, his ambition presumably outweighing the feeling of being in the wrong body.
for Lucy and her family; may she rest in peace.
[ 24. March 2013, 02:56: Message edited by: piglet ]
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Kids are very open to new ideas. And that's precisely why some adults are so damn terrified of them hearing things that the adults don't, for whatever reason, personally like.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
Littlejohn is an arse. However Miss Meadows did not die solely as a result of his rude piece.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
The reason adults think that children will have difficulty understanding something is usually because the adults are having the problem with comprehension. In my experience, children are remarkably flexible and open with their worldview.
I agree.
A few years ago the BBC employed Cerrie as a presenter on CBeebies. At the time lots of people complained that their children would be traumatised and there was some controversy.
The reality was that kids didn't care, and those that did had a free lesson in exposure to disability as normal.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Littlejohn is an arse. However Miss Meadows did not die solely as a result of his rude piece.
That's for the coroner to decide.
Even if TinyPenis's vile dribble had nothing to do with her subsequent death (something I consider vanishingly unlikely), I don't think it should substantially affect our reaction. The article wasn't wrong because someone died, it was wrong because it was vile. Hanging everything on the fact that someone died, whether it was directly related or not, would be giving too much importance to one person's mental state and any number of subtle but uncontrollable influences.
That Miss Meadows appears to have killed herself makes the vileness more obvious and higher profile, but it has no bearing on whether the "thoughts" of this "journalist" (I can do scare quotes as well) were in any way suitable for publication anywhere, let alone in a popular and allegedly respectable (ha!) national newspaper.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It would be ironic, if it wasn't such a terrible story, that it wasn't the kids who had problems with Lucy Meadows' transition, it was Littlejohn himself. He's projecting all of his own unease and prurience at such sex/gender changes onto others, and then dressing it up in some kind of virtuous warning. Oh yuk, yuk, yuk.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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birdie
fowl
# 2173
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
The reason adults think that children will have difficulty understanding something is usually because the adults are having the problem with comprehension. In my experience, children are remarkably flexible and open with their worldview.
Quite. In my experience of potentially awkward conversations with kids, the child's response is usually "oh. Can I have a biscuit?".
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"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness."
Captain Jack Sparrow
Posts: 1290 | From: the edge | Registered: Jan 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Littlejohn is an arse. However Miss Meadows did not die solely as a result of his rude piece.
That's for the coroner to decide.
Even if TinyPenis's vile dribble had nothing to do with her subsequent death (something I consider vanishingly unlikely), I don't think it should substantially affect our reaction. The article wasn't wrong because someone died, it was wrong because it was vile. Hanging everything on the fact that someone died, whether it was directly related or not, would be giving too much importance to one person's mental state and any number of subtle but uncontrollable influences.
That Miss Meadows appears to have killed herself makes the vileness more obvious and higher profile, but it has no bearing on whether the "thoughts" of this "journalist" (I can do scare quotes as well) were in any way suitable for publication anywhere, let alone in a popular and allegedly respectable (ha!) national newspaper.
People are urging the Mail to sack Littlejon.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
This is appalling but not unfortunately very surprising. I was horrified to read in an article here that 'We live in a country where nearly half of all trans young people have seriously considered taking their own lives. Half of an entire community teetering on the brink of death, because of institutionalised transphobia and insidious gender normativity. LGBT youth are an appalling ten times more likely to attempt suicide than their straight peers, and 6 times more likely to suffer from depression.'
I don't think anyone who has not been affected by trans issues can really understand what it is like, but our (my) lack of understanding should never mean a lack of compassion.
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Littlejohn is an arse. However Miss Meadows did not die solely as a result of his rude piece.
That's for the coroner to decide.
Even if TinyPenis's vile dribble had nothing to do with her subsequent death (something I consider vanishingly unlikely), I don't think it should substantially affect our reaction. The article wasn't wrong because someone died, it was wrong because it was vile. Hanging everything on the fact that someone died, whether it was directly related or not, would be giving too much importance to one person's mental state and any number of subtle but uncontrollable influences.
That Miss Meadows appears to have killed herself makes the vileness more obvious and higher profile, but it has no bearing on whether the "thoughts" of this "journalist" (I can do scare quotes as well) were in any way suitable for publication anywhere, let alone in a popular and allegedly respectable (ha!) national newspaper.
People are urging the Mail to sack Littlejon.
I'm struggling to work out why you thought that little snippet was a relevant response to what I wrote.
And FWIW, I have serious reservations about the petition. I'd be happy for TinyPenis to lose his job, but what then? There are plenty more dicks, bastards and arseholes who could produce something equally scummy, so apart from a hint of Schadenfreude, what would it achieve in the long run?
TinyPenis isn't the problem, he's a symptom. In a sensible world, he'd be propping up the saloon bar of some rancid pub, preaching his filth to a landlord who only puts up with it because he needs the business. But here in the real world, people apparently want to read it and the Heil can get away with it, so they'll continue to publish this sort of thing either way. They'd probably just get Jan Moir or Melanie Phillips to write it instead.
I know it's hard to forget about TinyPenis, the elephant-sized bigot in the room, but he really shouldn't be the main focus here. This is clear evidence of how broken the system is, at a time when press regulation has never been higher profile. This campaign should be general and political - post-Leveson regulation must be sufficient to prevent this sort of thing from happening, at the very least. Calling for the sacking of a single person is missing the point on an epic scale.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
So I can't fault the initial article - I think there's a legitimate discussion to be had. I also couldn't fault a follow-up article three months later, say, that discussed how the new Miss Meadows had been accepted into the school community
It's probably true that there is a discussion to be had. But you don't start that discussion by picking on one particular person who has in no way volunteered, publishing names of her and the school, and showing photos in such a way that she's wide open for harrassment, and framing it all in such a way that any fallout is entirely her fault. *That* is what the problem here is.
A more measured article might ask "what are the issues that arise in this situation?" in a more general way, without singling out individuals. Some good might come out of that situation but this is just "hey look at the freak who thinks he's a chick!" which is completely inexcusable.
Whenever bigots don't want kids to learn about some aspect of life "because they're too young" that is, in a weird way, usually exactly what they mean. "They're young and therefore open-minded and nonjudgemental - I don't want them to learn about this thing I disapprove of until they're old enough to have absorbed plenty of cultural baggage and become bigoted themselves. Then we can talk about it." And all the bleating about "innocence" is weird when it comes to transgender people - this isn't hardcore porn or snuff movies we're talking about. Kids are familiar with men. They're familiar with women. The idea that a person can change from one to the other generally doesn't faze them at all.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, it's Littlejohn who is fazed by gender/sex change. He's using the kids as a kind of prop - oh, think of the innocent children, but I don't really believe this. It's his own prurience which is getting an airing. What's strange is how badly this makes him look - but I suppose he is appealing to his own gallery, who will cheer him on.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Whenever bigots don't want kids to learn about some aspect of life "because they're too young" that is, in a weird way, usually exactly what they mean. "They're young and therefore open-minded and nonjudgemental - I don't want them to learn about this thing I disapprove of until they're old enough to have absorbed plenty of cultural baggage and become bigoted themselves. Then we can talk about it."
Indeed. It's nothing more than "I don't want them growing up thinking that this is perfectly normal and OK".
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
TinyPenis isn't the problem, he's a symptom. In a sensible world, he'd be propping up the saloon bar of some rancid pub, preaching his filth to a landlord who only puts up with it because he needs the business. But here in the real world, people apparently want to read it and the Heil can get away with it, so they'll continue to publish this sort of thing either way. They'd probably just get Jan Moir or Melanie Phillips to write it instead.
I know it's hard to forget about TinyPenis, the elephant-sized bigot in the room, but he really shouldn't be the main focus here. This is clear evidence of how broken the system is, at a time when press regulation has never been higher profile. This campaign should be general and political - post-Leveson regulation must be sufficient to prevent this sort of thing from happening, at the very least. Calling for the sacking of a single person is missing the point on an epic scale.
This is actually what I was driving at in my original post. First, Littlejohn is not the only person with hateful views of humans who happen to be a bit different from him - there are lots of other journalists like that, and newpapers prepared to print their stuff and people prepared to buy it.
This was a particularly extreme example, but the tabloid press, and the Daily Fail in particular, specialise in shaming people. And their readers like it as long as they are not on the receiving end themselves.
People are shit. I can understand how anyone with the misfortune to find themselves regarded as shamefully different, whether targetted by the Fail or not, can end up depressed enough to take their own life.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
But here in the real world, people apparently want to read it and the Heil can get away with it, so they'll continue to publish this sort of thing either way. They'd probably just get Jan Moir or Melanie Phillips to write it instead.
They could get Julie Birchill to write it. Apparently she wrote a column in the Observer (no longer on their website, and I haven't read it) where she referred to transgender people as "screaming minis" and "bed wetters in bad wigs".
Worse. The Press Complaints Commission have ruled that she did not breach the editors' code, which is interesting, as it contains a clause that forbids "prejudicial or pejorative reference to an individual's race, colour, religion, gender, sexual orientation or to any physical or mental illness or disability".
Link to article in The Week .
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
They could get Julie Birchill to write it. Apparently she wrote a column in the Observer (no longer on their website, and I haven't read it) where she referred to transgender people as "screaming minis" and "bed wetters in bad wigs".
Toby Young republished the article on his blog.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
They could get Julie Birchill to write it. Apparently she wrote a column in the Observer (no longer on their website, and I haven't read it) where she referred to transgender people as "screaming minis" and "bed wetters in bad wigs".
Toby Young republished the article on his blog.
Hm ... Birch-shrill seems to be putting forward the argument, "Hey! You! I'm a working-class woman and you .. you ... you used to have a penis. So I'm fucking better than you!! So there!!!"
Was she drunk when she wrote that? It seems to carry the tone one usually associates with someone waving a bottle of strong lager in a threatening way.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
It does read like the sort of thing someone might write on a bulletin-board, then very much regret the next day.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Isn't it more like 'Hey, I really don't have a penis, whereas you cut yours off, which, if you ask me, is a pretty stupid thing to do'?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
It does read like the sort of thing someone might write on a bulletin-board, then very much regret the next day.
But to be fair, isn't that about Burchill's level? At her very best, she's not much more than a skilful troll.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I prescribe gender reassignment surgery for Tinyprick; if in a generous mood I might extend that to giving him a vagina (can you give a cunt a vagina?) or if not settle for just removing his richard.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anne:
[QB] I think that many children consider that most things that adults do and say are strange and conform to weird rules that haven't been fully explained yet.
Totally. When my sister married her girlfriend, my son aged 9 checked, 'is ... a girl?' yes, sez I. pause... 'and is ... a girl too?' yes, sez I. 'Oh right.' sez son. He was just worried that he'd misunderstood something, or had looked foolish by presuming.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
Sounds like the conversation my friend had with her niece on her upcoming civil partnership.
Niece: So you will be the bride?
Friend: Well I will be the bride, and so will xxx
Niece thinks a while
Niece: So you will both wear pretty dresses then!
Niece wanders off
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Similar conversation here when my daughter's godfather married his partner, Robert*:
Daughter, puzzled: "So is Robert a woman?"
Me: "No, you know he isn't."
Daughter: "That's good, 'cause Robert would be a horrible name for a girl. If he had been a girl, everyone would have laughed at him at school (warming to theme) And it would have meant he'd horrible parents, calling a girl Robert. But it's ok if he's a man."
* not actually Robert, but an equally unequivocally male name.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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