homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » 8D - Quiet Zone: Contemplative prayer and meditation

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.    
Source: (consider it) Thread: 8D - Quiet Zone: Contemplative prayer and meditation
Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427

 - Posted      Profile for Nenya     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
How would you define these two? Are they very different or similar enough to be spoken of in the same breath?

[ 19. March 2017, 14:43: Message edited by: RuthW ]

--------------------
They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.

Posts: 1280 | Registered: May 2011  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Contemplation is about an empty mind.

Meditation uses the mind to visualise e.g.Bible stories.

(Buddhists use the terms in exactly the opposite way.)

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23073 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't know about that. We speak of "contemplating" something, which implies very strongly that the mind is therefore not empty.

For me, prayer is one thing (akin to conversation), meditation another (more just thinking, pondering), and contemplative prayer is the intersection between the two. Like in a Venn diagram.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19992 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

 - Posted      Profile for Ariel   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Contemplative prayer probably tends to involve words. Meditation doesn't have to. You can meditate on a picture or a natural object, for example.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143

 - Posted      Profile for Fineline   Email Fineline   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My understanding is that meditation is a series of mental exercises you do deliberately to reach a certain mental state, and is not necessarily related to prayer or faith, but can be. It can be visualisation, or focusing on a word, or imagining or reasoning. But contemplative prayer is a state of communion with God - it's not a set of exercises, but it is the state of being with God, aware of God's presence. I've heard it described as wordless prayer - the idea that words are a tool to help us reach the state where we get beyond words in prayer. Though everyone prays differently and some may always use words.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I don't know about that. We speak of "contemplating" something, which implies very strongly that the mind is therefore not empty.

For me, prayer is one thing (akin to conversation), meditation another (more just thinking, pondering), and contemplative prayer is the intersection between the two. Like in a Venn diagram.

What Della said.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23073 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427

 - Posted      Profile for Nenya     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I heard Cynthia Bourgeault speak yesterday evening and she was suggesting that contemplation is a state of consciousness which is accessed by a series of meditative practices and is not about emptiness or nothingness but involves a deep knowing, a resting in God beyond thinking and desiring.

The talk lost me in a few places but certainly gave me plenty to think about.

At the same event I was also able to buy a copy of Richard Rohr's latest book, "The Divine Dance", which he describes as the most important book he's ever written, so I came away very happy if a bit baffled. [Yipee]

--------------------
They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.

Posts: 1280 | Registered: May 2011  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
They're both fairly heterodox

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23073 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Leo, why didn't you just give me your viewpoint yourself, instead of sending me offsite to read three lines from an unknown person of no authority?

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19992 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

 - Posted      Profile for ThunderBunk   Email ThunderBunk   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I know not (and frankly care significantly less) whether Cynthia Bourgeault is regarded as heterodox or not. She has done more to revive the practice of contemplative prayer within the Anglican tradition than anyone I can think of.

Contemplative prayer is itself heterodox to a mindset that says that only the institutional church can validate practices and results of relationship with God. This is not to say that everyone has to go the full hermit, as it were, but if an individual is able authentically to rest in God as a result of God's utter gift of intimacy with Godself, the church loses its grip as facilitator, which terrifies some, and liberates others. I fall in the latter group.

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533

 - Posted      Profile for Pancho   Author's homepage   Email Pancho   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Leo, why didn't you just give me your viewpoint yourself, instead of sending me offsite to read three lines from an unknown person of no authority?

I can't speak for Leo but the explanation written by "Della" at the link he gave is, to the best of my knowledge, a decent summary of the traditional definitions of "meditation" and "contemplation" in Catholic spirituality:

quote:
The simplest way to describe the distinction between meditation and contemplation is to say that meditation is thinking and praying about something you have read, such as a biblical passage or writing of a saint, or experienced, such as an answer to prayer or the state of your soul. Mary did this often, as we see in the Gospels.

Contemplation, OTOH, is to clear one's mind of everything and just let God communicate with your heart and soul. Both are equally good for us to practice for meditation feeds our faith while contemplation feeds our hearts and souls. I hope that helps!

It's true that many or most people speak of meditation and contemplation a bit differently in regular conversation nowadays but I would argue that the definitions above are the older and historically more influential definitions in Western spirituality and what you will come across in writings by St. John of the Cross and others reaching both forwards and backwards in history.

--------------------
“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I know not (and frankly care significantly less) whether Cynthia Bourgeault is regarded as heterodox or not. She has done more to revive the practice of contemplative prayer within the Anglican tradition than anyone I can think of.

Contemplative prayer is itself heterodox to a mindset that says that only the institutional church can validate practices and results of relationship with God.

Indeed but she has some odd ideas about Mary Magdalene and about repentance.

[ 12. November 2016, 16:35: Message edited by: leo ]

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23073 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Contemplative prayer is itself heterodox to a mindset that says that only the institutional church can validate practices and results of relationship with God.

Rubbish. Contemplative prayer is a bog standard part of the Christian package. I've never heard of Cynthia, but I've heard of Ken Leech, Julian of Norwich and the Cloud of Unknowing.

If it leads to attitudes inconsistent with common Christian experience (eg claiming extraordinary revelation or underplaying the Incarnation, Atonement or Trinity) then it is clearly heterodox.

What on earth is the non-institutional church?

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3180 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

 - Posted      Profile for ThunderBunk   Email ThunderBunk   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Contemplative prayer is itself heterodox to a mindset that says that only the institutional church can validate practices and results of relationship with God.

Rubbish. Contemplative prayer is a bog standard part of the Christian package. I've never heard of Cynthia, but I've heard of Ken Leech, Julian of Norwich and the Cloud of Unknowing.

If it leads to attitudes inconsistent with common Christian experience (eg claiming extraordinary revelation or underplaying the Incarnation, Atonement or Trinity) then it is clearly heterodox.

What on earth is the non-institutional church?

I think you misunderstand me. I'm absolutely committed to contemplative prayer and it is the heart of my practice of my faith. Julian is my particular focus at present - has been for the last five years or so.

However, I have met a large number of people in churches who have looked at me as if I had grown a third head, because there's neither teaching nor priests involved in mediating it. The involvement of one or the other is essential to a certain mindset, differently modulated according to where they are on the proverbial candle.

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged


 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools