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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Scottish Independence, mark two (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Scottish Independence, mark two
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If it came to it and Boris and chums couldn't talk the Republic into some kind of quasi-British border at their ports of entry, then I think they're just planning to tell the Northern Irish that they can like it or lump it - gambling on the fact that enough people are invested in the peace process to avoid all-out fighting

While it might seem unrealistic to expect the Irish Republic to enforce Britain's frontiers, it's probably the only way to preserve the Common Travel Area which will, by defaults, preserve the open border. The CTA has been in existence since 1922 so it has nothing to do with the EU. It survived WW2 and the Troubles when many people wanted to end it for security reasons. In many ways I feel most sorry for the way Ireland has been dragged into the front line of Brexit without any input.

Ireland has a lot to lose with it's large agricultural sector and with more than a billion pounds worth of trade between us each week. So much so that it has a right to tell the EU that it must be treated as a special case in any future EU/UK arrangements. Merkel seemed to cold shoulder the idea when the Taoiseach visited her, but President Hollande was quite sympathetic to the idea when he visited Dublin, though he's a lame duck president on the way out. If the EU can't recognise Ireland's special status here, and insists on a one stance fits all approach to the UK, it's leaders are no friends to Ireland.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

Posts: 6383 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
While it might seem unrealistic to expect the Irish Republic to enforce Britain's frontiers, it's probably the only way to preserve the Common Travel Area which will, by defaults, preserve the open border.

There are certain hints of "build a wall, and get the government of the other side to pay for it" in the proposal to put the UK "frontier" at points of entry to another country. I'm sure we can manage to talk the French into giving the UK control over a sizable section of France at their end of the Tunnel while we're at it.

Either that, or keep the borders open and enforce import duties at some other point in the supply chain. Most goods are shipped with a full description of what they are, and their value, anyway - for insurance reasons as much as anything else. It's not impossible for importer to just copy that to HMRC and pay the appropriate duties without a hard border check. You'll probably have a larger amount of undeclared imports than you would with a hard border, but a requirement for firms to provide details of all imports upon demand would recover most of the duty due.

When the UK has long land borders between NI and the Republic, and between Scotland and England the costs of a paper trail only system may even be less than building customs facilities along the borders.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31964 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
PaulTH*
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# 320

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I'm not suggesting any hard borders within the British Isles. Far from it. But politicians are thinking of ways in which the Irish border can be kept open, and one suggestion was that Irish ports of entry could scrutinise on behalf of the UK. It's not a perfect idea and could meet with some opposition in Ireland. But the Common Travel Area predates the EU by decades and I hope we'd all like to see it continue. I certainly hope I don't live to see a border between England and Scotland!

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Yours in Christ
Paul

Posts: 6383 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
If the EU can't recognise Ireland's special status here, and insists on a one stance fits all approach to the UK, it's leaders are no friends to Ireland.

It seems a bit tough to blame the EU for a problem caused by the UK.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10307 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
PaulTH*
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# 320

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
It seems a bit tough to blame the EU for a problem caused by the UK

It's not blaming the EU. It's just asking it to recognise that Ireland has a hell of a lot at stake here. The peace process being the most important, but also it's still relatively large dependence on the UK economically. It's OK for Merkel and others to see the EU as a whole, but Ireland has a special interest in all sorts of ways, and the EU politicians, instead of just waving around their bureaucratic rule books should recognise this.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

Posts: 6383 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
instead of just waving around their bureaucratic rule books should recognise this.

Phrasing things this way makes it look like the Europeans are mainly mindless wavers of bureaucratic rule books. In reality they are acting to protect their own trade block - which is completely in their interests to do.
Posts: 3723 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
As regards economic choices, the options are being in a country with Liam Fox as your minister for foreign trade, or being in a country with Liam Fox as minister for foreign trade for your closest trading partner. Neither is exactly a reassuring prospect.

That's ridiculously short-term thinking. Scottish independence would have effects and ramifications lasting decades (if not centuries), so to boil it down to one Minister who will almost certainly be gone within a few years is fatuous at best.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29839 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Callan
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# 525

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
It seems a bit tough to blame the EU for a problem caused by the UK

It's not blaming the EU. It's just asking it to recognise that Ireland has a hell of a lot at stake here. The peace process being the most important, but also it's still relatively large dependence on the UK economically. It's OK for Merkel and others to see the EU as a whole, but Ireland has a special interest in all sorts of ways, and the EU politicians, instead of just waving around their bureaucratic rule books should recognise this.
So Ireland, is going to have freedom of movement, as part of the Single Market whilst simultaneously enforcing an immigration policy designed by Theresa May in an attempt to win back UKIP voters. I think I may have spotted a teensy flaw in that theory.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9677 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ronald Binge
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# 9002

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
It seems a bit tough to blame the EU for a problem caused by the UK

It's not blaming the EU. It's just asking it to recognise that Ireland has a hell of a lot at stake here. The peace process being the most important, but also it's still relatively large dependence on the UK economically. It's OK for Merkel and others to see the EU as a whole, but Ireland has a special interest in all sorts of ways, and the EU politicians, instead of just waving around their bureaucratic rule books should recognise this.
So Ireland, is going to have freedom of movement, as part of the Single Market whilst simultaneously enforcing an immigration policy designed by Theresa May in an attempt to win back UKIP voters. I think I may have spotted a teensy flaw in that theory.
I have too, which is why I think Ireland is caught by the collective balls on Brexit. Roughly half Irish trade is with the remaining EU26, with a quarter each to the US and the UK. Irish trade policy since 1973 has been to bridge the US and Europe, while maintaining UK trade. No good comes out of any of the probable options for us, and that doesn't even address the border I cross every day.

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Older, bearded (but no wiser)

Posts: 472 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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The BofS is half a billion down again. Tell you what Nicky, if you want to take Scotland out of the UK make sure you take that bloomin loss-making bank with you.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3038 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Forthview
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# 12376

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I think you mean the Royal Bank of Scotland.
(Not the Bank of Scotland)

Posts: 3396 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged



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