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Source: (consider it) Thread: Reading Outpouring: new year stock-taking
Charles Had a Splurge on
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That’s the thing. If Yinka had claimed 50 new believers after a mission, which would be a considerable proportion of any church (bar a few London Megachurches), we’d all be praising him.

But like you say we're not cutting him any slack now.

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"But to live outside the law, you must be honest" R.A. Zimmerman

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Had a Splurge on:


But like you say we're not cutting him any slack now.

Interesting, the way you've put this.

Did you actually have him in your church saying all of those things while you were all sitting there, feeling more and more unimpressed?

The churches I go to wouldn't let any preacher through the door if they didn't already know more or less what he was going to say. I'm not knocking your system, but it must make things far less predictable!

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

The churches I go to wouldn't let any preacher through the door if they didn't already know more or less what he was going to say. I'm not knocking your system, but it must make things far less predictable!

Complete tangent here ..

I have no idea if this was the case here; but this is not uncommon in certain circles; inviting someone and only giving them very broad guidance (if any) of the topics they might like to speak on - which is often jettisoned in any case, and conversely not having much of idea of what they might address. Of course, if someone was having something happening in their church then they would be invited knowing that that would be what they spoke about. The pressure to do so can be such that some leaders end up inviting people that they might personally not agree with, excusing it outwardly as 'perhaps they speaks to some here' and privately feeling that any needed corrective could be applied afterwards (as the Spirit leads!)

It is differences like this that lead to the somewhat grumpy reaction of some of us who come from the same background when hearing about a 'renewal'/'revival' etc.

[ 22. January 2017, 17:49: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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Charles Had a Splurge on
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My Church is part of the Reading Church Network , so our Lead Pastor and Outreach Pastor know Yinka well. I am sure that they knew what he was going to say and were quite happy to have him give this message. Our Lead Pastor had been at the Fresh Streams event at which Yinka spoke. To be honest, there was nothing that Yinka said that would have been particularly new to anyone who had seen the initial statement that was linked to from the BUGB website. Of course from the Ship I knew the figures on the follow up success rate, and what he’d been up to in Lille.

The “we” in the statement “we’re not cutting him any slack now” unfortunately only refers to us Shippies. Disappointingly, most of the staff and elders went up to be anointed. Not our Lead Pastor: he was up there anointing. I’m guessing that he had been anointed previously.

I am currently prayerfully considering my involvement with this church.

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"But to live outside the law, you must be honest" R.A. Zimmerman

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Gamaliel
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I think I'd be out of the door already, but moving on can be a biggie ... It took us ages and lots of heart-searching and heart-ache to leave the restorationist 'new church' set-up we were part of for 18 years in my case, 14 in the case of my wife ...

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Martin60
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I identify with you Charles. I initially said 'I feel for you, I really do'. But we feel for ourselves and project I suspect. Reading cast its attenuated shadow up here in Leicester. We'll give a much closer high church, the closest church in fact ... 'tis a soign! ... a look. Plan to go to an inclusive church for Taizé next Sunday.

Painful isn't it!

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Love wins

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Eutychus
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For the record, I have established contact with Lynn Green.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Baptist Trainfan
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And ...? We wait with bated breath.

Incidentally, I was speaking to a charismatic RC priest in another part of the country the other day. He is part of the local New Wine network and they will be having Yinka to speak to them soon. Obviously he (the priest) is quite happy with what he's heard so far.

This week in fact: see this link.

[ 30. January 2017, 11:15: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

Incidentally, I was speaking to a charismatic RC priest in another part of the country the other day. He is part of the local New Wine network and they will be having Yinka to speak to them soon. Obviously he (the priest) is quite happy with what he's heard so far.

That's very weird. I didn't realise those links into the RCC existed.

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arse

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Baptist Trainfan
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I'm not sure that there is an "official" link, this was more of a personal thing, I think. Still interesting, though.
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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And ...? We wait with bated breath

In response to a request from someone else, I have drafted a short summary of my findings as reported here. Out of fairness to Lynn, I have sent her a final draft to give her a first opportunity to respond before going any further with it.

(Also in the interest of fairness, I intend to send a paper copy of the final draft to Yinka Oyekan, on the basis that he is more likely to read something he gets through the post than something e-mailed to him).

I'll keep y'all posted as I can, bearing in mind that anything I get in return will of course be private unless expressly stated otherwise.

I'll probably post an anonymized version of my scribblings on my website in due course, too.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
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Lynn Green has sent me a very gracious and considered reply.

In summary, she acknowledges some important questions have been raised, speaks warmly of Yinka without necessarily condoning everything that's been going on, shares her enthusiasm for the amount of prayer and evangelism she's seen, and lays most of the blame for bad reporting at the door of the media - an angle I intend to follow up.

Lynn also copied Yinka in on her e-mail, so perhaps I can start a conversation with him now too. Obviously it's not appropriate to pursue that in a public forum.

I have posted an anonymised version of what I sent them here.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
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For the record, I have also been in contact with Yinka too, now.

Meanwhile a source from a major charismatic CofE church in the centre of Reading (i.e. a church theoretically sympathetic to the spirituality involved here, described as engaged in "a lot of outreach and praying"), reports detecting "no change in the spiritual atmosphere of Reading at all", and no difference to the numbers in that congregation.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

I have posted an anonymised version of what I sent them here.

As an aside, I particularly liked the Nigel Wright quote. The church I was part of had had some dealings with the events of 1990, and I remember it as the first occasion in which I heard 'revivals' being defined - ISTR the pastor at the time coming up with his own taxonomy.
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Baptist Trainfan
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I was a student at Spurgeon's College at the time, and Wright was one of my lecturers. He is (or at least was) very sympathetic of the Charismatic Movement but he is also a man of integrity and an excellent theologian. I knew less about Wimber and Paul Cain than most of the other students, but I remember that Wright was very wary of what Cain was claiming and, indeed, the whole "Kansas City prophets" movement. (I think Wright felt that they had rather led Wimber, who he respected, up the proverbial garden path).
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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Meanwhile a source from a major charismatic CofE church in the centre of Reading (i.e. a church theoretically sympathetic to the spirituality involved here, described as engaged in "a lot of outreach and praying"), reports detecting "no change in the spiritual atmosphere of Reading at all", and no difference to the numbers in that congregation.

Which seems very different
to the events of the 1904/5 Welsh Revival.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
For the record, I have also been in contact with Yinka too, now.

Meanwhile a source from a major charismatic CofE church in the centre of Reading (i.e. a church theoretically sympathetic to the spirituality involved here, described as engaged in "a lot of outreach and praying"), reports detecting "no change in the spiritual atmosphere of Reading at all", and no difference to the numbers in that congregation.

Would they admit that from the front? Or from the floor when the mike goes round?

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Love wins

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Eutychus
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Why would they? A Sunday morning service is not usually the place to castigate a neighbouring congregation.

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Gamaliel
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I think Wright learned the hard way ...

He was the minister at Ansdell Baptist in Blackpool when it went through the charismatic renewal and into the Wimber stuff ... and they flirted with restorationism to some extent earlier on too.

They used to come over to the Dales Bible Week and there was some kind of unspoken expectation that they might well come under what we called 'apostolic oversight' or 'covering' ... (I shudder at those terms now and wasn't too keen on them even then) ...

I always heard good things about Nigel Wright although I think he'd say himself that he made lots of mistakes at that time.

The next time I heard of him was when he co-authored the very good collection of essays, 'Charismatic Renewal: The search for a theology' which came out in 1996. As well as contributions by Wright it contained thoughts and essays by Tom Smail and Dr Andrew Walker.

Post-Toronto I often described it as, 'the book that kept me sane.'

It struck a much needed note of common sense and theological reflection at that time, although, sadly, not everyone heeded it (or were even aware of it ...)

20 years on the revivalist scene seems not to have learned a great deal ...

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
For the record, I have also been in contact with Yinka too, now.

Meanwhile a source from a major charismatic CofE church in the centre of Reading (i.e. a church theoretically sympathetic to the spirituality involved here, described as engaged in "a lot of outreach and praying"), reports detecting "no change in the spiritual atmosphere of Reading at all"

Are they for real or do they think they're in some D&D adventure and casting Detect Magic?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Eutychus
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The question of how meaningful the terminology used is is irrelevant.

The fact is that the Outpouring has been evaluated as ineffective on its own terms by a well-disposed neighbour, and has not been seen to have resulted in any objective, numerical increase in their congregation either.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Why would they? A Sunday morning service is not usually the place to castigate a neighbouring congregation.

No castigation required. I foolishly assumed that the CoE char evos were caught up with it all as we were in Leicester.

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Love wins

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Eutychus
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I think they were and some still are. The opinion I relayed is of an attender there. But for all my criticism, I wouldn't necessarily pick the context of a service to voice it.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
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Me neither, except when the mike comes round and we can be open and honest ... HAH!

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Love wins

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Eutychus
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I think that in a forum like that, one has to be really, really, really sure of what one is alleging before opening one's mouth, and whether that is the best or first place to do so, and the degree of certainty increases with one's leadership role in the group.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
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As in no castigation, no allegation. The facts, the empty claims, speak for themselves.

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Love wins

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Ethne Alba
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Oh i don't know, morning services have (with boring regularity) been exactly the place for frustrated leaders to go off piste a little......
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Eutychus
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Here is what I have understood from my e-mail exchanges with Yinka. This is of course my perspective and he might claim he has been misunderstood!

Yinka ascribes particular importance to people saying Yes to an invitation to "receive Christ as their Saviour" and argues that to quote the figures for those that simply say Yes (irrespective of success or otherwise in follow-up) is legitimate.

He draws an emphatic distinction between this process and being "born again", i.e. he does not claim, he says, that all those who have said "Yes" are born again, so he would not describe himself as a decisionist.

The most charitable explanation I personally can come up with is that he has a similar view of "saying Yes" to the view of Catholics about infant baptism: it appears to me to be viewed sacramentally, as something that is somehow spiritually effective even if the recipient is unaware or indeed the "officiant" is apostate - and be something less than conversion itself.

This certainly appears to me to be an original view, especially in protestantism, and one that will not be understood by most Christians superficially reading the claims, such as the claim on The Turning website that "in 10 days over 865 people responded to Christ" in Lille.

(However, it certainly fits with a lot of what I understand about Bethel, where there seems to be a belief in the intrinsic value of particular, often odd, actions, in what I would describe as magic).

It is also very odd for such an understanding to apply to a process that is very much focused on understanding (not a symbolic act, but praying a particular prayer after a particular explanation; frankly, I think this resembles time-share pressure selling more than anything).

By this point my conversation with Yinka had veered into theology and we both agreed we would not get much further.

After a rocky start, I'm glad I finally persuaded him to engage with me and that we signed off on reasonably good terms.

However, for now, nothing in what we said previously leads me to retract anything I wrote in the short report linked to earlier.

[ 11. February 2017, 08:04: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
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Sterling work Eutychus. Yeats Second Coming prevails I'm afraid.

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Love wins

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Baptist Trainfan
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Just a thought. My understanding is that Yinka is either originally Nigerian, or descended from Nigerians although himself born in Britain.

Might there be some cultural understanding and significance in the "saying of yes" which folk from an Anglo-Saxon background might not have picked up? I'm thinking perhaps that the speaking of certain words is considered to be intrinsically powerful in itself.

Although that's not my own position, one could certainly argue that a similar understanding is evident in the Gospel stories.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Yeats Second Coming prevails I'm afraid.

Eh? [Confused]
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Martin60
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"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."

Source.

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Love wins

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Just a thought. My understanding is that Yinka is either originally Nigerian, or descended from Nigerians although himself born in Britain.

Might there be some cultural understanding and significance in the "saying of yes" which folk from an Anglo-Saxon background might not have picked up?

The cultural/"homeland" issue got discussed a bit earlier on, here and here.

quote:
I'm thinking perhaps that the speaking of certain words is considered to be intrinsically powerful in itself.

Let's run with that assumption. The question to my mind is what would such power be achieving here?

Not being "born again", according to Oyekan. Not simply sowing seed, because he lays importance on people having said yes and "responding to Christ", as opposed to simply listening to something or even receiving prayer.

So what might this action achieve? The nearest thing in my understanding, as explained above (and privately to Yinka!) is something akin to paedobaptism.

I believe such a concept to be quite innovative in evangelical theology - although it does sort of fall into line with the Bethel idea of "changing the atmosphere" also referenced above.

[ 11. February 2017, 10:02: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Gamaliel
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Without wishing to air-brush the cultural issues out of the equation, I suspect that Yinka's Nigerian heritage doesn't have a great deal of bearing on this issue ...

What I suspect is happening is that we're saying particular forms of evangelicalism taking a step further into Bethel territory and into 'decisionism' ...

To an extent it's the old 'name-it-and-claim it' word of faith schtick only applied to soteriology.

I can see some parallels with paedobaptism but there are significant differences - in classic forms of paedobaptism there is a communal aspect - the faith of the parents and 'sponsors' if you like - the faith of the Church ... whereas here it's reduced to a form of individualistic response - 'He/she said the magic words so they must be ok ...'

Sure, Yinka, and others like him, may well make a distinction between 'decisionism' and discipleship but in practice this has long been a hot-potato within evangelicalism ... it's not a recent development by any means.

It was an issue during the Billy Graham crusades and I've seen it on OM missionary activity and in revivalist gatherings of all kinds ...

'Is So-and-So really saved?'
'Well, he prayed the prayer ... I saw the pastor lead him in it myself ...'

That used to bug me no end back in my restorationist days.

What we are seeing now is the same sort of schtick only taken a stage or two further.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:


I can see some parallels with paedobaptism but there are significant differences - in classic forms of paedobaptism there is a communal aspect - the faith of the parents and 'sponsors' if you like - the faith of the Church ... whereas here it's reduced to a form of individualistic response - 'He/she said the magic words so they must be ok ...'

In practice, though, or at least in popular theology, there's not much that's truly communal in paedobaptism. Parents don't really expect the Church to support their children, and they don't really expect the Godparents (who might well be non-believers) to provide spiritual assistance. And the clergy are aware of this.

In many cases parents probably do think that a few magic words will make the difference. I actually heard a vicar make reference to 'magic words' during a baptism last year. It was perhaps tongue in cheek, but he didn't attempt to disabuse visitors of any erroneous theology they might have.

Like Yinkan, there's a sense that getting people through the ritual is what counts. Any more is icing on the cake.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
'Is So-and-So really saved?'
'Well, he prayed the prayer ... I saw the pastor lead him in it myself ...'

Yes, but again, Oyekan is claiming something significant happens in this "praying to accept Christ as saviour" prayer, that is less than being born again.

I'm flailing around trying to see if there is any theological precedent for this, and as far as I can see it has more in common with paedo-baptism than decisionism - a prospect I think Oyekan's constituency might find alarming if it was spelled out to them.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
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On further reflection, Gamaliel you might have a point that "name it and claim it" might have something to answer for here.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Without wishing to air-brush the cultural issues out of the equation, I suspect that Yinka's Nigerian heritage doesn't have a great deal of bearing on this issue ...

Fair enough; I don't know the guy at all.
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Eutychus
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Coming soon to Wales with New Wine!

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Gamaliel
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I don't know the guy either, Baptist Trainfan. I'm simply speculating ...

On the paedobaptist thing ...

I was, of course, referring to the 'ideal' rather than the reality in terms of how paedopbaptism tends to be administered ...

And yes, I can see the parallel Eutychus draws but equally I think there's more to it than that ... Hence the name it and claim it thing ...

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Coming soon to Wales with New Wine!

I know that Yinka spoke to Cardiff church leaders at a New Wine meeting a couple of weeks ago.
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Gamaliel
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Well aye, mun. If I 'ad a fiver f'evvry time I hyeard summon say summat like ah ... 'ow Wales uz goarnoo be a playerce uv blessin' n'outpourin''n' all I'd be a wealthy man, me.

I've hyeard it all before, I 'ave. Time an' time again. S'allus the same. Wales 'ave 'ad revivals inna past like, isn't it? So stands to reason as there's goarnoo be 'nother.

Fed up of hyearin' it, I am.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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MrsBeaky
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Many, many years ago when my husband and I were training in cross-cultural mission (at an inter-denominational college) we encountered an interesting phenomenon. Large numbers of the student body were of the "share your testimony" school which meant tell the story of "how I got saved" and to be fair some of the students had remarkable stories of Damascus road experiences. But lots of us did not.

I remember someone questioning my salvation as I did not have a defining moment....I replied that my understanding of salvation was as an ongoing experience. This did not go down well.(Apparently the ongoing process is sanctification which happens after the defining moment of salvation).

I am convinced that such theology is in part fuelled by insecurity-the need to validate one's own experience and to measure the impact of a public evangelist's ministry.
But I also know that praying the prayer is a logical first step for people who pursue this model of the theology of salvation.

I have never forgotten a conversation with a somewhat unpleasant young man I once knew who gleefully told me he had "prayed the prayer" to then enjoy watching the other guy tell the story of "him getting saved" which was groundless- as I knew him well I knew it was and to be fair when I questioned him he freely admitted it.....

Fast forward to this week. I am back in Kenya to do a wheelchair distribution. I am working with lovely fellow Christians who are very much from the the "getting saved/ pray the prayer" school of thought.
I had an interesting conversation with one. I said nothing about my reservation about certain aspects of decisionism but instead asked questions about methodology- attempting to gently lay down the challenge about how on earth they expect people to respond to being harangued rather than being part of a dialogue.
I couldn't face having the conversation about the wider theological stuff as I know they would think me completely "unsound" and that would prejudice the work here.

Hey ho!

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"It is better to be kind than right."

http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Coming soon to Wales with New Wine!

I know that Yinka spoke to Cardiff church leaders at a New Wine meeting a couple of weeks ago.
He's getting around. I hear he was in Ohio last weekend.

quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
I couldn't face having the conversation about the wider theological stuff as I know they would think me completely "unsound" and that would prejudice the work here.

I can understand what you're saying, but I think the fear of "prejudicing the work" can actually end up prejudicing it even more.

If nobody calls anybody to account on this kind of thing it grows unchecked and, as Gamaliel points out, repeats itself depressingly often. Christians end up disappointed, confused and disilllusioned - and unable to talk about this "because it would be a bad witness".

Regardless of his theology, it is my contention that Oyekan's communication about "The Turning" is far too prone to over-optimistic misunderstanding by his target audience; it would never have caused the buzz it has done had this not been the case.

Now he enjoys a degree of legitimacy with the help of the likes of Lynn Green and New Wine, mainstream believers are being exposed to this hype.

Once somebody has a platform like that it is very difficult to challenge them, because doing so makes the people and organisations who endorsed them look bad. [Waterworks]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Some of the students had remarkable stories of Damascus road experiences. But lots of us did not.

I remember someone questioning my salvation as I did not have a defining moment....

Although I do have a defining moment, my story was so low-key that I indeed did question its validity. There seemed almost to be a boastfulness in recounting how dramatic one's conversion had been. Fortunately one friend reassured me by saying how much he wished he'd had the basis within Church and Sunday School that I'd had.

In my view, far too many take the story of Paul's conversion as normative, when it is exceptional. True too of the Spirit's outpourings at Pentecost, Ephesus etc., which are specific events to declare the ever-widening bounds of God's action and grace as the Church expands.

[ 12. February 2017, 07:44: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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MrsBeaky
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
I couldn't face having the conversation about the wider theological stuff as I know they would think me completely "unsound" and that would prejudice the work here.

I can understand what you're saying, but I think the fear of "prejudicing the work" can actually end up prejudicing it even more.

If nobody calls anybody to account on this kind of thing it grows unchecked and, as Gamaliel points out, repeats itself depressingly often. Christians end up disappointed, confused and disilllusioned - and unable to talk about this "because it would be a bad witness".


I entirely agree .
And when I am in the UK I regularly have such conversations. But I am here as a guest in another culture. I am only here for three weeks and with a very clear aim and focus of welcoming some of the most marginalised people in this society and needing to focus on challenging some profound and heart-breaking attitudes to people with disabilities.
However some of my Kenyan colleagues have challenged entrenched theological and praxis positions and are now labelled "liberal" as I am by some fellow Christians in the UK when I speak up!

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"It is better to be kind than right."

http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com

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Eutychus
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I shudder to think what labels I might have attracted... [Big Grin]

Of course one's room for manouevre is limited as a guest. But more generally, when people are reduced to attaching labels to you rather than discussing the issues involved, it makes me start to wonder whether their beliefs actually have any merit.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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MrsBeaky
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Some of the students had remarkable stories of Damascus road experiences. But lots of us did not.

I remember someone questioning my salvation as I did not have a defining moment....

Although I do have a defining moment, my story was so low-key that I indeed did question its validity. There seemed almost to be a boastfulness in recounting how dramatic one's conversion had been. Fortunately one friend reassured me by saying how much he wished he'd had the basis within Church and Sunday School that I'd had.

In my view, far too many take the story of Paul's conversion as normative, when it is exceptional. True too of the Spirit's outpourings at Pentecost, Ephesus etc., which are specific events to declare the ever-widening bounds of God's action and grace as the Church expands.

Indeed!
What grieves me is how some Christians presume to judge the spiritual life of others because it's not a carbon copy of their own.
Worse still is the competitive element that sometimes creeps into people's desire to tell their stories- be it a "getting saved" or "filled with the spirit" or "being used by God"narrative.

--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."

http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:


Now he enjoys a degree of legitimacy with the help of the likes of Lynn Green and New Wine, mainstream believers are being exposed to this hype.

... mainstream evangelical believers, perhaps. Still not mainstream believers overall. Not anywhere in Europe, anyway.

[ 12. February 2017, 10:48: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Eutychus
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My perspective from outside the UK is that New Wine has quite an influence across the board.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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