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Source: (consider it) Thread: America First! Who wants to be second?
Gramps49
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Go to this map. Double click any continent and double click any country and see their video addressing why they should be second. (The German video is insane--reminds me of someone).
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lilBuddha
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Hey! I linked that down in Hell. The original, the Netherlands, is the best.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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sabine
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I enjoyed Australia's

sabine

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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neandergirl

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I'm a Switzerfan myself.

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Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you. Hebrews 13:5 NIV
We come from love, we return to love, and all around is love.
Lord, ease our burdens, give us peace and enable us to do your work. Tree Bee

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Kelly Alves

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In all seriousness, I have always hated that "America First" shit. Back in the early days of the colonies it was i enlightened and naive to think of America as the Promised Land, but after 250 years of existence people should have learned by now that it's a great big world that tends to run more smoothly when you cooperate with it.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Kelly Alves

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"Unenlightened". Damn predictive text.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I have always hated that "America First" shit.

From this side of the Atlantic, my attitude to the phrase is potentially coloured by "Britain First" which is a neo-fascist bunch of thugs, the sort of thing that the majority of British people want to distance themselves from (though, not too far it seems as many people still swallowed anti-immigration lies and voted Leave on that basis).

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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lilBuddha
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Isolationism is a close, and incestuous, relative of racism.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Brenda Clough
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There has been a persistent strain in American Christianity, that the US is God's chosen country. It is nonsense, of course, and can't stand up to even the most cursory scrutiny. (Go put the word 'America' into your online Bible concordance; I'll wait.) Nevertheless I have heard it from people I would have deemed intelligent persons of faith.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Bishops Finger
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I rather liked the Lithuanian entry, as they're quite happy to be third .

Very modest.

And their President Dalia Grybauskaitė (not 'Grab-yer-skirt') looks to be one feisty lady...

And trumpas is Lithuanian for 'short', hopefully referring to Pussygrabber's presidency...

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Brenda Clough
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Here is a POST article pointing out that saying America is a Christian nation is heresy.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Bishops Finger
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Iran's contribution is by far the best, IMHO...

'Iran anywhere, but before Iraq'

[Overused] [Overused]

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Prester John
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Isolationism is a close, and incestuous, relative of racism.

You paint with too broad a brush-as usual. In the U.S. between World Wars there was a significant amount of progressives who would have described themselves as isolationist and wanted to avoid another war in Europe.
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Humble Servant
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I've heard quite a bit of proof-texting around walls being God's Will(R). He built one round Jerusalem to protect it from invaders, so the USA should do likewise. (Ezekiel 22:30). Apparently God is not opposed to walls! There's a whole load of crap about one-world government, and how the story of Babel was about God endorsing the nation state as the God-given way to organise humanity. Not sure if this is a tangent.
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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Isolationism is a close, and incestuous, relative of racism.

You paint with too broad a brush-as usual. In the U.S. between World Wars there was a significant amount of progressives who would have described themselves as isolationist and wanted to avoid another war in Europe.
She said close relative, not identical.

What is "isolationism"? Ultimately it is keeping "us" separate from "them", and quite often that is manifest as fear. It is also manifest as a feeling of superiority, that "we" are better than "them" and "they" will spoil "our" superior civilisation. Between the wars US isolationism was about keeping Europe at arms length from the US, out of fear of being embroiled in another European war. Japan was isolated for centuries, out of fear that Japanese culture would be polluted by European influence. There is a strong current of isolationism in Brexit, out of fears that immigrants are "taking our jobs" and other such nonsense.

Racism is also about drawing a line between "us" and "them". It also is marked by a feeling of superiority, and also by no small amount of fear. Racists want to keep "them" down (or out) because ultimately they fear that racial equality will take away their feeling of superiority, their place near the top of the social pile.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Isolationism is a close, and incestuous, relative of racism.

You paint with too broad a brush-as usual. In the U.S. between World Wars there was a significant amount of progressives who would have described themselves as isolationist and wanted to avoid another war in Europe.
You are right! I forgot plain old xenephobia.
Progressive is a relative term.
One can be racist without hating everyone of different ethnicity.
Racism is, oh bugger; in saying I use too broad a brush, you use one to paint your picture of progressives.
There is a hell of a lot of racism in isolationist movements, despite there being some who are not.
The current isolationism in Britain and America is driven more by xenephobia and racism than sound economic theory.
Whilst one can attribute other motives to different periods of isolationism, you are seriously trying to tell me that the population then had a sound grasp of economics and political theory?

Edited for typo. bruschetta? Seriously, autocorrect?

[ 09. February 2017, 15:54: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Prester John
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:


What is "isolationism"? Ultimately it is keeping "us" separate from "them", and quite often that is manifest as fear. It is also manifest as a feeling of superiority, that "we" are better than "them" and "they" will spoil "our" superior civilisation. Between the wars US isolationism was about keeping Europe at arms length from the US, out of fear of being embroiled in another European war. Japan was isolated for centuries, out of fear that Japanese culture would be polluted by European influence. There is a strong current of isolationism in Brexit, out of fears that immigrants are "taking our jobs" and other such nonsense.

Racism is also about drawing a line between "us" and "them". It also is marked by a feeling of superiority, and also by no small amount of fear. Racists want to keep "them" down (or out) because ultimately they fear that racial equality will take away their feeling of superiority, their place near the top of the social pile.

For many, particularly progressives, the motivation was pacifism. I seriously doubt people such as Sinclair Lewis and E.E. Cummings would have felt American civilization as inherently superior. They felt war was wrong and wanted to do their part to actively resist it.
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sabine
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

Edited for typo. bruschetta? Seriously, autocorrect?

Autocorrect understands that painting with a broad bruschetta would not be putting America first.

(my autocorrect suggested "butterscotch" [Smile] )

sabine

--------------------
"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
For many, particularly progressives, the motivation was pacifism. I seriously doubt people such as Sinclair Lewis and E.E. Cummings would have felt American civilization as inherently superior. They felt war was wrong and wanted to do their part to actively resist it.

Again, too broad a brush. Pacifism ranges from all violence is bad to those people aren't worth fighting for.
And polling intellectuals doesn't necessarily reflect the general population.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

Edited for typo. bruschetta? Seriously, autocorrect?

Autocorrect understands that painting with a broad bruschetta would not be putting America first.

(my autocorrect suggested "butterscotch" [Smile] )

sabine

Perhaps painting bruschetta with butterscotch?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Prester John
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
For many, particularly progressives, the motivation was pacifism. I seriously doubt people such as Sinclair Lewis and E.E. Cummings would have felt American civilization as inherently superior. They felt war was wrong and wanted to do their part to actively resist it.

Again, too broad a brush. Pacifism ranges from all violence is bad to those people aren't worth fighting for.
And polling intellectuals doesn't necessarily reflect the general population.

You're right. Far better to assume the worst in people with whom you disagree.
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lilBuddha
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Not assuming. An increased level of racist violence following Brexit and Trump is evidence.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Prester John
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Not assuming. An increased level of racist violence following Brexit and Trump is evidence.

We seem to be talking at cross purposes or you are moving the goalposts. I'm not talking about Trump or Brexit. I'm stating that conflating all isolationists during the interwar period with racists is inaccurate and a hackneyed slur. Your original statement condemned isolationism at all times and places and additional comments continued to paint them with that brush.
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lilBuddha
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Let's look at it this way. Trump did almost no outlining of actual policy. What he did was appeal to racism, xenophobia and American exceptionalism(which is often a combination of the two).
One of the few things he did fill in the details for? An economic plan that will be detrimental to his base. And yet they still voted for him.
No matter what people thought he might represent, all they had was what he said. Which is mostly racism and xenophobia.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Prester John
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Let's look at it this way. Trump did almost no outlining of actual policy. What he did was appeal to racism, xenophobia and American exceptionalism(which is often a combination of the two).
One of the few things he did fill in the details for? An economic plan that will be detrimental to his base. And yet they still voted for him.
No matter what people thought he might represent, all they had was what he said. Which is mostly racism and xenophobia.

I realize I may not be the most engaging personality but what you wrote above does not address anything I wrote in the post above. Did you even read it? I said "I'm not talking about Trump or Brexit."
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Not assuming. An increased level of racist violence following Brexit and Trump is evidence.

We seem to be talking at cross purposes or you are moving the goalposts. I'm not talking about Trump or Brexit. I'm stating that conflating all isolationists during the interwar period with racists is inaccurate and a hackneyed slur. Your original statement condemned isolationism at all times and places and additional comments continued to paint them with that brush.
I never said all, that is your projection. BTW, this thread is about Trump.
For any philosophy there will be a variation in what it means to any individual. It is as predjudicial to broadly ascribe positive motivation as it is negative.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Let's look at it this way. Trump did almost no outlining of actual policy. What he did was appeal to racism, xenophobia and American exceptionalism(which is often a combination of the two).
One of the few things he did fill in the details for? An economic plan that will be detrimental to his base. And yet they still voted for him.
No matter what people thought he might represent, all they had was what he said. Which is mostly racism and xenophobia.

I realize I may not be the most engaging personality but what you wrote above does not address anything I wrote in the post above. Did you even read it? I said "I'm not talking about Trump or Brexit."
Dude, x-post.
You have to have noticed that term here. Unlike a typical face to face conversation, one online is often out of phase. So, unless your post is quoted within a subsequent post, it is mistaken to assume that the latter is necessarily a reply to the former.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:


What is "isolationism"? Ultimately it is keeping "us" separate from "them", and quite often that is manifest as fear. It is also manifest as a feeling of superiority, that "we" are better than "them" and "they" will spoil "our" superior civilisation. Between the wars US isolationism was about keeping Europe at arms length from the US, out of fear of being embroiled in another European war. Japan was isolated for centuries, out of fear that Japanese culture would be polluted by European influence. There is a strong current of isolationism in Brexit, out of fears that immigrants are "taking our jobs" and other such nonsense.

Racism is also about drawing a line between "us" and "them". It also is marked by a feeling of superiority, and also by no small amount of fear. Racists want to keep "them" down (or out) because ultimately they fear that racial equality will take away their feeling of superiority, their place near the top of the social pile.

For many, particularly progressives, the motivation was pacifism. I seriously doubt people such as Sinclair Lewis and E.E. Cummings would have felt American civilization as inherently superior. They felt war was wrong and wanted to do their part to actively resist it.
From what I can recall from my history lessons, the main driver behind US isolationism was that it was felt that another war between European nations was likely and that isolationism would minimise the chances of the US becoming involved in that war. Lewis and Cummings represent one aspect of that, the pacifists not wanting any war. There were others who had no particular objection to war, but were not wanting US soldiers getting killed in someone else's war.
In both cases, these fall approximately under the banner of fear - the fear that involvement in European affairs would lead to US troops having to fight in a European war. And, some isolationists no doubt also had other reasons.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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lilBuddha
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Alan had it right in interpreting my first post that began this interchange. But he was evaluating what I actually said.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Huia
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On the map if you click NZ you get the video for Australia [Roll Eyes] Now Australia is a great country [Biased] but it's not NZ.

I found NZ's video by Googling and I love it. The url is too long to post and I've never got the hang of doing a tiny one, but I encourage you to Google it.

(In NZ, New Zealand First is a political Party with 12 out of 121 seats in Parliament. It is anti immigration.)

Huia

[ 11. February 2017, 03:21: Message edited by: Huia ]

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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lilBuddha
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New Zealand Second

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Huia
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Thanks lilBuddha, I'm a bit more dozy than usual at the moment [Hot and Hormonal] but when I'm back to myself I must master the technique properly.

--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There has been a persistent strain in American Christianity, that the US is God's chosen country. It is nonsense, of course, and can't stand up to even the most cursory scrutiny. (Go put the word 'America' into your online Bible concordance; I'll wait.) Nevertheless I have heard it from people I would have deemed intelligent persons of faith.

I think it is an easy trap to fall into - one that first came home to me not in the US, but at the memorial to the Huguenots in South Africa.

You have a band of people attached to God and Scripture who flee their native land because they are persecuted for precisely these reasons. It's not hard to see how they identified themselves with the slaves in Egypt (in much the same way as christianised African slaves did).

They arrived in somewhere as beautiful as South Africa where there was no persecution and they had the technological advantage. It's also easy to see how they would adopt the next part of the metaphor too: clearly, this was God's Promised Land for them and they had a mandate to drive out and/or subdue the heathen inhabitants.

Today in the US, I think this outlook is aided by the fact that the Old Testament shows us a theocracy, not a democracy, and a culture with a very definite "chain of being" with some at the top and others lower down (usually women, slaves, etc.).

I think not a few christians, especially evangelicals, continue to see authority along the lines of this "chain of being". For them, the idea of equality is actually a less important one than the idea of hierarchy*.

"America First" makes perfect sense in that light.

==

*I recently criticised a US acquaintance for supporting Trump by saying the latter was a "threat to democracy" - then later realised he might have actually thought democracy was not such a good thing...

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
In NZ, New Zealand First is a political Party with 12 out of 121 seats in Parliament. It is anti immigration.

I wonder how many other nations have political parties or campaign groups with a name like "[nation] First". Are any of them not racist and xenophobic?

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

*I recently criticised a US acquaintance for supporting Trump by saying the latter was a "threat to democracy" - then later realised he might have actually thought democracy was not such a good thing...

Too few care about the equality of all. Too many care for the supremacy of themselves.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Enoch
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# 14322

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Hey, why haven't we produced a film? We've got a far better claim than all these other cruddy no good little states - who's heard of Germany or the Netherlands? Where are they?

Admit it Mr President. "Nether' means 'bottom'. AND we even do 'bottoms' better than them. We really know how to lick them - we do it better, so much better, than anyone else. Our PM has already shown up in Washington to lick yours, to make us your poodle, or rather the du-dus that come out of it. These others are only pretending. She really loves you.

AND we've a foreign secretary who loves you. He loves you so much he even looks like you. And he's got hair like yours. AND another of our wonderful politicians has been photographed in a golden lift with you. Mr President you'd really love our politicians. You don't even need to try to win them over. They already love you. AND your dear old mom comes from what is still part of here. AND we've got lots of wind farms - O no, I forgot, you don't like them. They spoil golf courses. Perhaps keep quiet about them. Put some pretty girls in front of the pictures of them. We got fantastic women, lots of them. Half our entire population have pussies.

AND we've got even stoopider voters than you have. You got in with a minority vote. But 54% of us voted stoopid. Hey AND we've already got a wall. It's nearly 2,000 years old. It keeps the Scots out. AND it works. It must do. Think about it Mr President. Your dear old mom ended up in New York, not Manchester, Preston or somewhere - though they are really cool. You'd love Preston. AND we shoot Mexicans - O No, sorry, that was a Brazilian. Well, they're all the same.


We used to have the BEST COMEDIANS is the world. We were famous for them. Most of them haven't died yet. Surely we can do better than all these other places. We must be funnier than Luxembourg - that's just a radio station after all.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Horseman Bree
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# 5290

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Isolationism is a close, and incestuous, relative of racism.

And America was not racist in the Depression years? Really?

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It's Not That Simple

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Dave W.
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# 8765

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Horseman Bree, how are you reading lilBuddha's claim about the relationship between isolationism and racism as implying that the US wasn't racist during the Depression?
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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

*I recently criticised a US acquaintance for supporting Trump by saying the latter was a "threat to democracy" - then later realised he might have actually thought democracy was not such a good thing...

What drives me guano is when some stupid Republican then turns around and says, "We're not a democracy we're a republic." This is somehow supposed to show that the Democratic Party is wrong and the Republican Party is right. It gets so fucking old.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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MSHB
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# 9228

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I wonder how many other nations have political parties or campaign groups with a name like "[nation] First". Are any of them not racist and xenophobic?

We (apparently) have an Australia First Party which is ultra-right. It is one of those parties that my eyes glaze over and automatically put at the bottom of the order of preferences.

One of the joys of preferential voting is: who will I put last?

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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Horseman Bree, how are you reading lilBuddha's claim about the relationship between isolationism and racism as implying that the US wasn't racist during the Depression?

I'm confused by this as well.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What drives me guano is when some stupid Republican then turns around and says, "We're not a democracy we're a republic."

I would lay odds that most of them do not understand the definitions of wither word.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

*I recently criticised a US acquaintance for supporting Trump by saying the latter was a "threat to democracy" - then later realised he might have actually thought democracy was not such a good thing...

What drives me guano is when some stupid Republican then turns around and says, "We're not a democracy we're a republic."
Are they just trying to make some sort of partisan joke based on the parties' names, or is that evidence of some particular viewpoint that I've missed?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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bib
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# 13074

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Who decided that America was number one? I think the main problem in the world is that nations think they are superior to other nations, rather than recognising that we are all created equal. We all tend to love our own countries, but that doesn't mean that we have the right to claim we are better than the people of any other country. Such attitudes lead to resentment, anger and potentially to war.

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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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bib:
Yes, what in the donald is that?
There is a frequently observed foundational theory, even when recognised, continues to operate. Something about being a little more and special. Exceptionalism isn't erased just because it is acknowledged. With the rise of richman pseudo-populism, it may actually eventually become recognised as the mean practical joke on the world it is.

Rhymes with the history of America's 'Greece', which referendumed itself into a painful joke where they debate a deformed toad visiting an elderly woman.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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America thinks it is first because in living memory it has been. At least militarily, politically and economically.
It has been ages since the UK could legitimately think this, but some still do.
Now, I agree that powerful shouldn't mean preeminent, but it isn't hard to see why some do.
You do not get to what should be by ignoring what is. Instead you get Brexit and Trump.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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rolyn
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# 16840

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Jesus stated 'the last shall be first and the first shall be last'. Something extreme right wing enthusiasts using the blah blah blah First mantra may wish to ponder, especially if they are also adherents to the Good Book.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Who decided that America was number one?

It is a very old idea, dating back to the Pilgrims ("a city set on a hill"). It has always been stupid, but is especially pernicious when it ties into religion (" ...because God chose us to be number one!"). There are large segments of the population who insist on lip service to the notion. One of the many calumnies slung against Barack Obama was that he didn't think America was the greatest. Hence the slogan of Li'l Donny.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Those pilgrims you refer to weren't a very nice bunch of people from what I gather. The way it comes across to an outside is that they created a nasty puritanical cult. Sort of like British Amish or one of those groups with a compound with the power of life and death over the group, keen on witch trials. Paranoid.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Enoch
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# 14322

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You may have already seen this linked article in the Washington Post. I can't remember if any of the many threads on these boards have already linked to it. It's Stanley Hauerwas on patriotism as a false god, and the use of Christian phraseology in the service of patriotism as idolatry.

Trump is not the first person to abuse Christianity this way. Unless he and his minions bring about the destruction of the world, he's unlikely to be the last. It's difficult to fault what Hauerwas is saying. It's a warning not just for now but for all time.

I think Hauerwas is bang on.

[ 12. February 2017, 20:29: Message edited by: Enoch ]

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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What's sad is that Christians (real ones, not Trumpian heretics) are taken in by his faux faith.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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