homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Counter Culture (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Counter Culture
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

 - Posted      Profile for Schroedinger's cat   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think there is a strong element within Christianity of being counter culture - refusing to conform to expectations, refusing to conform to societies norms. Jesus was - in my view - a pain because he refused to fit in.

In more recent times, some people have appreciated the counter-culture/hippy/alternative lifestyle connections, and understood that Christian counter-culture is damned difficult, and about trying to reject the commercialism and the oppression that is rife in our society. Even if we don't always do it.

And yet the last few years seems to have a different interpretation of this - counter-culture as retro culture, seen in the opposition to homosexuality (and this has been stirred partly by the appalling way that Vicky Beeching has been treated by some parts of the church). In truth, that is also counter-culture - a rejection of the modern cultural acceptance of difference in terms of sexuality, gender, behaviour. And yet it is wrong (wrong because it seems to be totally hate-filled, not wrong because I disagree).

So how do we - Christians - be counter-culture without being arseholes?

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18499 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The 1st Christians saw Jesus as lord - so the Emperor wasn't.

We can choose the path of nonviolence insteasd of embracing the war and arms of the current empire (Trump)

[ 22. April 2017, 18:10: Message edited by: leo ]

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23019 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What an excellent question.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12543 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The Christianity I see is entirely cultural. The CoE used to be called the Tory party at prayer. Nothing radical about it or wider evangelicalism. Just pious.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16587 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

 - Posted      Profile for sharkshooter     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
...
So how do we - Christians - be counter-culture without being arseholes?

Jesus told us that the world will hate us, if we follow Him. That is, they will call us arseholes.

--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

Posts: 7698 | From: Canada, eh? | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

 - Posted      Profile for Og, King of Bashan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You can disguise your own resentment at the threat that you might lose your place of privilege as counter-cultural, but it's anything but, and that's when you start looking like an asshole, at least in my eyes.

Jesus reached out to those outside of the privileged groups. Even though there are secular groups out there doing the same thing, if you want to be counter-cultural in the way of Jesus, that's what you have to do. And when it looks like society has come around to one group, look for Jesus running ahead to meet the next group.

--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

Posts: 3107 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
...
So how do we - Christians - be counter-culture without being arseholes?

Jesus told us that the world will hate us, if we follow Him. That is, they will call us arseholes.
I doubt he meant that it'd be because we were the ones still getting at the queers.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17444 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's all flipped and scrambled isn't it. Anti-Christian is counter culture. Anti-Christian dressed in Christian clothes is dominant culture, like that pence feller.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10832 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
That is, they will call us arseholes.

There can be more than one reason for that. There's a difference between being a fool for Christ and being a twit for Christ.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The Christianity I see is entirely cultural

All except your particular flavour no doubt [Roll Eyes]

Christianity as counter-culture has been something I have aspired to ever since my student days. I'd say it involves applying the values of the kingdom of God within the framework of society at large, in such a way as to be neither alienated from that society nor its slave.

It also requires a large dollop of discernment to identify things we might perceive as distinctively Christian which are in fact highly culture-bound and/or "worldly".

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378

 - Posted      Profile for Gramps49   Email Gramps49   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I am reading A Generation of Sociopaths by Bruce Gribney. It deals with the American Babyboom Generation, which is different than the European Post-War Generation. Basically, he points out that the American Boomers have always been about "me, myself, and I." As I am reading the book, I have been thinking about how the church is counter generational at least to the Boomers. Altruism is not in the Boomer vocabulary, never has been, nor has personal responsibility.

The sad part is, the American Evangelical movement, which is made up of mostly Boomers, has not stood up to the sociopathic tendencies of its society; but I do think the more mainline churches whose traditions can be traced back to the early church have a better platform to be counter-cultural. And I am seeing succeeding generations listening to the mainline message. The church needs to stay true to the message of love God, love neighbor and not sell out to the self interest ideals of the Boomers.

Posts: 1912 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38

 - Posted      Profile for Honest Ron Bacardi   Email Honest Ron Bacardi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It seems to me there are (at least) two meanings of counter-cultural. Firstly, you could be a contrarian, opposing things for the sake of opposing them. Secondly, you could be objecting to certain things in current culture. If those things are deemed part of the current culture then you are still counter-cultural.

Neither means you are right or wrong, though the first seems bound to be wrong in certain aspects.

So which is it to be? - or if not these, then what?

--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic

Posts: 4759 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
It seems to me there are (at least) two meanings of counter-cultural. Firstly, you could be a contrarian, opposing things for the sake of opposing them. Secondly, you could be objecting to certain things in current culture. If those things are deemed part of the current culture then you are still counter-cultural.

Or you're just not particularly interested in the current culture. Perhaps you don't place value on conformity, but evaluate each item on its merits. That's not nearly as strong as "objecting to things in the current culture" - but it's actively ignoring the pressure to go along with the default.
Posts: 4745 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Altruism is not in the Boomer vocabulary, never has been, nor has personal responsibility.

As a Baby Boomer, I think that is a massive and false over-generalization.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2442 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There is little evidence that mainstream Christianity has, for any sustained period since Constantine, been counter cultural. Quite the contrary, it has supported fat cat culture, wars and worse with the greatest of ease. Break away Christian Sects have had better, but varying degrees of success at being counter culture.

This isn't to say that individual people, both Christian and non Christian, haven't gone against the grain and endeavoured to achieve good things outside the 'box' as it were.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3038 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
actively ignoring the pressure to go along with the default.

Yes. Reminds me of this poster.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The Christianity I see is entirely cultural

All except your particular flavour no doubt [Roll Eyes]

Christianity as counter-culture has been something I have aspired to ever since my student days. I'd say it involves applying the values of the kingdom of God within the framework of society at large, in such a way as to be neither alienated from that society nor its slave.

It also requires a large dollop of discernment to identify things we might perceive as distinctively Christian which are in fact highly culture-bound and/or "worldly".

Only in my armchair Eutychus. In my praxis I'm invisible 99% of the time, as a litter picking plant spotter at best. Slightly culturally quirky flavoured me. Wish I could be as savoury as Oasis, true. Or anyone actually incarnational.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16587 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
]Or you're just not particularly interested in the current culture. Perhaps you don't place value on conformity, but evaluate each item on its merits. That's not nearly as strong as "objecting to things in the current culture" - but it's actively ignoring the pressure to go along with the default.

Yes, I think properly defined; insofar as Christianity is counter-cultural or cultural it should be tangentially and accidentally so.
Posts: 3723 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The sad part is, the American Evangelical movement, which is made up of mostly Boomers, has not stood up to the sociopathic tendencies of its society; but I do think the more mainline churches whose traditions can be traced back to the early church have a better platform to be counter-cultural. And I am seeing succeeding generations listening to the mainline message. The church needs to stay true to the message of love God, love neighbor and not sell out to the self interest ideals of the Boomers.

Is it that the American Evangelical movement doesn't stand up to sociopathy because it is the basis for it, and it actively promotes sociopathic attitudes and behaviour with it's endorsement of selfish, low tax, don't-help-the-poor conservatism? And it's not boomers it's Elmer Gantry (which is 90 years ago). It's written into the fabric of the 20th century, which culturally started right after WW1, continues with the shining city on a hill, which is opposed to the axis of evil, and needs to be made great again, like the straying Hebrews. With only the redemptive violence of the Great Depression and WW2 to show how greatness is accomplished by suffering followed by confrontation and war.

It looks like if from here. The more noxious ends of it include the winnowing of the population via competitive capitalism, so that the damned become poorer and the wealthy elect blessed. God is judging people by their money and the happiness they purchase. "Christian" political leadership has made things more unequal: the more they say they are Christian, the less they actually are.

Perhaps the greatest foundational evil is ignoring that scripture says that the possession of private wealth is intrinsically evil, viz. Jesus’s warnings to the rich. The intrinsic evil of possessing wealth is explained it away, and pretending that it does not mean what it unquestionably means. Why on earth would we expect the Boomers to do other than endorse the attitudes of their parents and grandparents? To realize the full fruits they pursued?

I suppose I am lumping all evangelicals together unfairly. but I do question their emphasis on individual salvationism, and see this as a foundational flaw in this stripe of belief, and it's murderous values, because it privatizes Jesus into a personal relationship, and asks the individual to appraise their pilgrim progress in accord with their accomplishments, and frequently, to their accrued wealth. Sure they get together in churches, but these churches are feel good places without actually social changes of the counter cultural manner Jesus promoted.

Counter culture today is going off grid (more individualism) or camping out to prevent a pipeline (temporary collectivism to prevent a perceived evil). There's not much room for Jesus in any of it.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10832 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
That is, they will call us arseholes.

There can be more than one reason for that. There's a difference between being a fool for Christ and being a twit for Christ.
This leads to an unfortunate intellectual dynamic:

Jesus said people will hate us if we follow him properly.

People hate us.

Therefore we are following him properly.

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62942 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Given that Western civilisation has been soaked in Christianity for the best part of two thousand years, Christianity shouldn't be that counter-cultural.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7101 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yeah, you'd think that a culture like America, that declared itself 86% Christian not so long ago, if it were that savoury a hamburger would taste a little salty.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16587 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

 - Posted      Profile for Schroedinger's cat   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Mousethief - precisely. The activity ends up defined by the result, not the action.

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Given that Western civilisation has been soaked in Christianity for the best part of two thousand years, Christianity shouldn't be that counter-cultural.

But that is the point - it should be counter-cultural, BECAUSE it is the established faith. We therefore have a privileged place from which we should be able to challenge society. We should be leading society into a more tolerant place not dragging it back to to hatred.

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18499 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Russ
Old salt
# 120

 - Posted      Profile for Russ   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
insofar as Christianity is counter-cultural or cultural it should be tangentially and accidentally so.

Yes. Counter-cultural isn't a virtue.

Subcultures can be countercultural. But can you have a countercultural culture ?

Nothing wrong with setting out to build a Christian culture.

Just don't confuse it with a conservative culture or a progressive culture.

--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

Posts: 2978 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Given that Western civilisation has been soaked in Christianity for the best part of two thousand years, Christianity shouldn't be that counter-cultural.

Well, you'd like to think it'd be that way, but given we spent several hundred years soaking western Civilisation in Christianly shed blood, perhaps not. Ironically it's often been secular movements which have dragged the West into a more Christian culture often against the opposition of the church. Not always, but not rarely either.

[ 23. April 2017, 10:54: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17444 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992

 - Posted      Profile for Adeodatus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
All this reminds me of what I once heard someone say about the Magnificat: it's cyclical, and it never ends. He puts down the mighty and exalts the humble, puts down the mighty and exalts the humble, puts down the mighty and exalts the humble....

In our world the oppressed, when they come to power, are under no obligation to be kind to their former oppressors. Until we learn that this is a mistake, the Magnificat will never end.

--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9754 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Precisely what culture do you want it to counter SC. I mean most of us are born into a culture of one sort or another.

The present secular culture seems reasonably happy and balanced without religious guidance. Accepting there is still some hatred, intolerance and lasciviousness about, no worse than when the Church reigned supreme, some would say proportionally less. Just depends where you put the measuring stick.

Going back to the time when Rome made Christianity the established faith, because let's face it they would be no such thing as Christianity had they not. Did it stop them revelling in the obscene cruelty of the Games? It did not. Did it stop members of the elite shagging everything that moved? It did not.
Apart from helping hold Europe together through the Dark Ages, Christianity usually morphs or is blended to suit the prevailing culture. As it is now, (albeit with difficulty), with the dominance of Secular freedom.

I think people like me just go to Church now and again became they feel like it for an unspecified reason. The only way to go counter culture would be to become a Buddhist hermit, (without broadband connection).

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3038 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
... The present secular culture seems reasonably happy and balanced. ...

It clearly isn't. If it were, Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Hofer and Wilders wouldn't have people voting for them

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7233 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Jesus this is ludicrous. Whilst Christians can be counter-culture, Christianity hasn't been for most of its existence.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The Christianity I see is entirely cultural

All except your particular flavour no doubt [Roll Eyes]

This is EXACTLY what you, and most of the rest, are doing. Picking particular examples out to illustrate your point, so roll those eyes inward. Or step away from examining the brush stroke and look at the entire canvas.

[ 23. April 2017, 14:32: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16601 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Whilst Christians can be counter-culture, Christianity hasn't been for most of its existence.

That's it!

I knew there was an answer to this vexed question. Christians live and serve in a huge variety of cultures. Some will need to be very counter-culture, others will not.

Look to Christ. He was counter culture - the prevailing culture was exclusive and unequal, especially the religious culture. Of course, he'd find plenty of that in the Church today.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12543 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
It seems to me there are (at least) two meanings of counter-cultural. Firstly, you could be a contrarian, opposing things for the sake of opposing them. Secondly, you could be objecting to certain things in current culture. If those things are deemed part of the current culture then you are still counter-cultural.

Or you're just not particularly interested in the current culture. Perhaps you don't place value on conformity, but evaluate each item on its merits. That's not nearly as strong as "objecting to things in the current culture" - but it's actively ignoring the pressure to go along with the default.
It is thing contrary to much of human nature.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16601 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

 - Posted      Profile for Schroedinger's cat   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
SO OK, the anti-slavery movement was largely driven by Christians - yes, in opposition to other Christians, but driven by counter-cultural Christians.

Whereas the promotion of womens' rights has been largely from a sometimes anti-church feminist movement - shown not least by the established church taking decades to catch up by allowing women to be first ordained and then made bishops.

And in the acceptance of alternative sexuality the church is on the opposing progress. Never mind gender issues. These are areas where Christians (I take the point) should be promoting change, and driving change.

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18499 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
SO OK, the anti-slavery movement was largely driven by Christians - yes, in opposition to other Christians, but driven by counter-cultural Christians.

By Christians who chose to go counter to the mainstream Christian culture.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16601 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A Christian culture which could well see that times were-a-changing in the face of mechanisation, together with a general shift in overseas interest from West to East.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3038 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
SO OK, the anti-slavery movement was largely driven by Christians - yes, in opposition to other Christians, but driven by counter-cultural Christians.

To a certain extent, yes. As long as you define the anti-slavery movement rather narrowly as people living in the UK, like Wilberforce. The slave revolts that preceded Wilberforce - specifically in Haiti - had a huge impact on the ending of slavery, and hardly any of the Maroons were Christians.
Posts: 3723 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Altruism is not in the Boomer vocabulary, never has been, nor has personal responsibility.

As a Baby Boomer, I think that is a massive and false over-generalization.
Ditto. Guess the Boomers' work for social justice, environmental protection, consumer protection, the Internet, personal computers, etc. doesn't matter.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17648 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Altruism is not in the Boomer vocabulary, never has been, nor has personal responsibility.

As a Baby Boomer, I think that is a massive and false over-generalization.
Ditto. Guess the Boomers' work for social justice, environmental protection, consumer protection, the Internet, personal computers, etc. doesn't matter.
The internet began as a military project and certainly wasn't altruistic. Personal computer have been commercial ventures in the main since their beginnings.
Altruism is owned by no generation.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16601 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
# 3434

 - Posted      Profile for Arabella Purity Winterbottom   Email Arabella Purity Winterbottom   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
From my observation, any group which sees itself as counter-cultural will find itself becoming culturally bound, often within a generation. The Gospels and Letters of Paul are a rather good example. The history of feminism is another.

Even if you start off with lots of ideals and energy, a mortgage and family tend to settle you down, and make your interest in falling foul of the mainstream culture reduce. This is accompanied by your countercultural group making itself lots of rules about behaviour of its members. At that point, you are no longer counter-cultural.

My observation of the church is that there is no way any Christian group can be properly counter-cultural any more. Either churches have sucked up the dominant culture and identify themselves with the leaders thereof and thus ARE the culture, or they are unlikely to be any different from the various social project groups outside the church.

However, I do find it interesting that the Pope is getting into trouble with his hierarchy for encouraging a gospel centred Catholicism rather than a doctrine centred one. Given his high position, that could be considered rather counter-cultural (or naïve, which is what many of us at a much lower level have been called for the same ideas).

--------------------
Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

Posts: 3693 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The hippie movement was another good example of something counter cultural and transient. It peaked quickly with the Summer of Love then the ideology started to fold.

Communes are usually doomed to failure for similar reasons. Followers either cow-tow to a charismatic leader or turn on each other with their individual Establishment based agendas.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3038 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290

 - Posted      Profile for Horseman Bree   Email Horseman Bree   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Altruism is not in the Boomer vocabulary, never has been, nor has personal responsibility.

As a Baby Boomer, I think that is a massive and false over-generalization.
Ditto. Guess the Boomers' work for social justice, environmental protection, consumer protection, the Internet, personal computers, etc. doesn't matter.
The internet began as a military project and certainly wasn't altruistic. Personal computer have been commercial ventures in the main since their beginnings.
Altruism is owned by no generation.

Yes, it is a generalization, but one that has a definite basis in fact. The whole hippy thing was based on not taking any responsibility for anything but self-amusement (taking advantage of, among other things, The Pill and its implication of consequence-free actions). The anti-Vietnam war thing was based on "not me, I'm not going to get shot at for any reason", whatever the old guys said. And everyone having cars allowed for the avoidance of social restrictions, as shown by the Dukes of Hazzard. The freer flow of information added to the general mood of disengagement, particularly as the sins of the Church became better known, leading to the freedom of evangelicals to wander down a path which led to Donald Trump, who epitomises fact-free inability to deal with responsibility.Yes, many Boomers have excellent values, but, set against the wealthy who are screwing the entire country, those "good" ones haven't a hope.

--------------------
It's Not That Simple

Posts: 5366 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

 - Posted      Profile for Stetson     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
The anti-Vietnam war thing was based on "not me, I'm not going to get shot at for any reason"
If that was the case, then wouldn't the students who protested the war have been better off just studying harder to make sure they stayed in university, with its attendant draft deferrals, rather than wasting time protesting the war?

Or are draft-deferrals just something Hollywood concocted to spice up campus comedies set in the 1960s?

Posts: 6300 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274

 - Posted      Profile for Kwesi   Email Kwesi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm not sure that Christianity as needing to be counter-cultural is quite right, though I have much sympathy with the arguments for the proposition. There are, after all, elements in any culture which are to be applauded and encouraged. At the very least one would need to define what aspects of a culture are to be challenged. Rather I think that Christianity should take a position of constructive critical engagement with the various societies in which it finds itself.
Posts: 1441 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

Or are draft-deferrals just something Hollywood concocted to spice up campus comedies set in the 1960s?

Draft Classifications. Three apply to schooling.
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Yes, it is a generalization, but one that has a definite basis in fact. The whole hippy thing was based on not taking any responsibility for anything but self-amusement (taking advantage of, among other things, The Pill and its implication of consequence-free actions). The anti-Vietnam war thing was based on "not me, I'm not going to get shot at for any reason", whatever the old guys said. And everyone having cars allowed for the avoidance of social restrictions, as shown by the Dukes of Hazzard. The freer flow of information added to the general mood of disengagement, particularly as the sins of the Church became better known,

Wow. Is there no grass one's feet may feel? Hippies had a variety of motivations, the Pill is a boon to feminism and not all war protesters are cowards.
quote:

leading to the freedom of evangelicals to wander down a path which led to Donald Trump, who epitomises fact-free inability to deal with responsibility.

Hippies led to Trump?
Mind. Blown.

[ 24. April 2017, 22:45: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16601 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
lB--

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Ditto. Guess the Boomers' work for social justice, environmental protection, consumer protection, the Internet, personal computers, etc. doesn't matter.

The internet began as a military project and certainly wasn't altruistic. Personal computer have been commercial ventures in the main since their beginnings.
Altruism is owned by no generation.

Yeah, sorry. I was in a bit of a mood about this, and thinking beyond altruism to good things that have come from Boomers, or in which they were heavily involved.

I wasn't sure about including the Net; but it came out of that period, and does a lot of good. (And yes, I know about ARPAnet.) Same with PCs--not governmental, AFAIK; and yes, commercialism was involved. But much of it was due to tech geeks, puttering and playing and inventing for themselves and friends, then as business.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17648 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
rolyn--

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Communes are usually doomed to failure for similar reasons. Followers either cow-tow to a charismatic leader or turn on each other with their individual Establishment based agendas.

"The Farm" survived, and is still going. [Smile]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17648 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

 - Posted      Profile for Sober Preacher's Kid   Email Sober Preacher's Kid   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
SO OK, the anti-slavery movement was largely driven by Christians - yes, in opposition to other Christians, but driven by counter-cultural Christians.
/

To a certain extent, yes. As long as you define the anti-slavery movement rather narrowly as people living in the UK, like Wilberforce. The slave revolts that preceded Wilberforce - specifically in Haiti - had a huge impact on the ending of slavery, and hardly any of the Maroons were Christians.
Upper Canada got rid of slavery in 1792. Haiti wasn't even in the cards, yet.

--------------------
NDP Federal Convention, Edmonton 2016: More Trots than the Calgary Stampede!

Posts: 7626 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
Egeria
Shipmate
# 4517

 - Posted      Profile for Egeria     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Gribney's book sounds like unadulterated bovine excrement. Even the title gives it away: idiotic age-related bigotry within. (Sounds like this misfit grabbed the title from the notorious Generation of Vipers.)

Generational sociology is not intellectually respectable. It categorizes people and judges them by arbitrarily decided ranges of dates within which they were born. It's no more "scientific" than astrology. Why should someone born in 1962 have more in common with a total stranger born in 1946 than with his or her younger sibling born in 1966?

I am just old enough to remember the so-called "counter-culture" but not old enough to have participated in it--that is how brief that fad was. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area listening to journalists and rightwing nutjobs (like the vicious, anti-intellectual, corrupt, incompetent Hollywood hack in the Governor's office) shrieking about hippies and commies and the threat to Our Sacred Way of Life. And I never met an actual hippie. (The three or four communists I have met are all decent, kind, thoughtful, law-abiding, respectable citizens.)

And don't forget that the original hippies were too old to be "baby boomers" and most "baby boomers" were too young to have been hippies.

In high school in the 1970s very few of the students had cars. Many girls were not yet taking birth-control pills, if they ever started at all. I don't remember much of this attitude of self-absorbed hedonism alluded to above. College-bound students were expected to give some thought to social responsibility, and I think most of us (at least those who actually belonged in college) did.

The public figures who promoted selfishness and ridiculed social justice and environmentalism during those years were mostly far too old to be baby boomers. Some of the most influential were members of the so-called "Greatest Generation"--wealthy, famous, selfish, and ignorant.

--------------------
"Sound bodies lined / with a sound mind / do here pursue with might / grace, honor, praise, delight."--Rabelais

Posts: 311 | From: Berkeley, CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican_Brat   Email Anglican_Brat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The problem with "countercultural" is that there are multiple cultures within a society. For example, take the perceived left-wing cultures of major universities in North America. The left-wing cultures of university may view themselves as "countercultural" because they are going against the perceived conservative tenor of North American society. But right-wing activists within those universities may perceive themselves as "countercultural" because they are resisting the dominant left-wing university discourse.

Kwok Pui-Lan, post-colonial theologian at EDS, once came to my neck of the woods in BC. She spoke that it is an illusion to think that there is a "pure Christianity" that exists prior to entanglement with empire. From her teaching, one could say that it is impossible to imagine Christianity as countercultural if one understands this idea to mean a "pure" Christianity that exists prior to culture.

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

Posts: 4228 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

 - Posted      Profile for Stetson     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
lilbuddha wrote:

quote:
Draft Classifications. Three apply to schooling.
Well, according to that, the student deferrals only applied until graduation, so I guess it's possible that a lot of the student protestors were worried about getting drafted AFTER they left school.
Posts: 6300 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Christianity as a whole is a hugely diverse, adaptable religion, so there are going to be parts of it that are more countercultural than others, depending on which culture we're talking about. But if it were going to be wholly countercultural in every way then by definition it would have to remain quite a small movement. But perhaps many churches and fellowships have smallness as part of their ministry and calling.

It could be argued that the most countercultural thing the denominations could do would be to unite into one vast worldwide operation, hierarchy and theology. Many Christians dream of such a thing. But I don't think it would be terribly helpful to ordinary believers. Choice and flexibility is one of the advantages of the religion, at least up to a point.

Posts: 6338 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools