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Source: (consider it) Thread: Was Jesus a Pacifist
rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Britain and France declaring war on Hitler trashed Poland for six years and six million lives alone. We should have told Poland to lay down its arms, to surrender without a shot. But we had to learn that lesson of history. Eighty million times. Our freedom was so worth it wasn't it?

Allowing a genicidal, tyrannical Dictator to take complete control of the World is one way of keeping the peace I suppose.

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Martin60
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Worked for Rome and Jesus.

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Martin60
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And again rolyn, hindsight's so clear isn't it?

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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How we get from Jesus getting angry about temple merchants to declaring war on Hitler is one of those leaps of logic which makes me not know whether I should want to shoot myself or go bowling. Or do I go to meet the gardener with tears and sun in my eyes asking why he bothered getting up at all?

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
....Or do I go to meet the gardener with tears and sun in my eyes asking why he bothered getting up at all?

Definitely better than the other two options, not that I've ever considered bowling.

Jesus' Ministry pursued a course of non violence. Had it not then the authorities would have suppressed it forcefully at a much earlier stage.
As to whether Jesus Himself is a pacifist, that is one of those questions we ask alone with tears in our eyes.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And again rolyn, hindsight's so clear isn't it?

Whether one applies hindsight, foresight, farsight or innersight the conclusion is invariably reached that God may as well have screamed at the Cosmos as think sending His only Son would stop humanity from warring.

[ 29. April 2017, 08:23: Message edited by: rolyn ]

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Martin60
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Go bowling. Yeah, may be Crœsos can bridge that category gap for us? Or Mudfrog. Clear the temple with string on a stick or bomb Dresden. Difficult call apparently.

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Martin60
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And aye rolyn. I know He screamed. And I know He knew it wouldn't stop war. For a while. Only we can do that. With strong benevolence. I.e. social justice.

[ 29. April 2017, 09:43: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
[Quote]
As to whether Jesus Himself is a pacifist, that is one of those questions we ask alone with tears in our eyes.

Thanks for this and the rest. You didn't mean it as a rebuke, but I need it as one. With a number of upsetting issues these last few days. Let us cry together please.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Martin60
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Go bowling mate, as I said 3 up.

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Love wins

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Twilight

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Elie Weisel (Holocaust survivor, Nobel prize) said:
quote:
We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.
If that's just a plea for us to "speak out," then I agree, but if he means we must continually be at war with someone on the planet, then I just couldn't spend my life that way, nor ask anyone else to.
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Steve Langton
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The bit that tends to get left out when the Hitler war is raised as an anti-pacifist argument is the question - If everybody in 1930s Germany who called themselves a Christian had also followed the biblical teaching on pacifism, what would Hitler have done for an army? Not to mention that if all those Germans had believed in pacifism, would they have voted for Hitler in the first place??
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Gamaliel
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Why stop there? Take it back further. No World War One, no World War Two ...

All these things are connected. Hitler was the culmination of some cultural and ideological emphases that went way back further and through a toxic combination of circumstances led to the Third Reich ...

I'm reading a biography of S T Coleridge and he highlights how much of an issue anti-Semitism was in early 19th century Germany when he traveled and studied there.

These things go way back and ripple on down to this day. History isn't simply a catalogue of famous names.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Baptist Trainfan
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My mother grew up in 1930s Germany. She felt that an lot of people were simply entranced by Hitler's economic miracle and were prepared to shut their eyes to the less savoury aspects of what was going on. They were also frightened to say anything, for fear of retaliation. Hence to join the Confessing Church or declare oneself as a pacifist would have been a very costly thing to do, especially if you had dependents.

There is also the argument which I've read about, which said that the Army had a very strong code of loyalty to the nation. Hitler cleverly turned this into a cde of loyalty to himself which many didn't realise until too late. Having said that there were high-ranking military people such as Admiral Canaris who recognised the difference and saw that the only way to save the nation was to subtly subvert Hitler.

So, while I basically agree with Steve' position, I think things would have looked very different to folk actually in Germany at the time, especially as it was a nation with a proud military tradition.

FWIW my father was involved in an anti-Nazi student group while at University (c.1936) and spent a couple of months in Dachau for his pains.

[ 29. April 2017, 16:37: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Martin60
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You can easily see Luther in the Holocaust.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Sadly, I must agree.
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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
You can easily see Luther in the Holocaust.

You can see Nazi imagery in church if you wish. Martin Luther Memorial Church, Berlin.

So now we have established that it is possible to turn Jesus on his head, and make him into a supporter of Nazism. Which he also can be made to support slavery in the Spanish, British, French, Ottoman, Portuguese, Roman and probably every else's empire. If I go bowling, I will throw the balls overhand.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Martin60
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That would be impressive. You must have shoulders like the Incredible Hulk. You'd trash the alley mind. Not exactly pacific. You need to work on the Zen there no...

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Love wins

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Thanks for this and the rest. You didn't mean it as a rebuke, but I need it as one. With a number of upsetting issues these last few days. Let us cry together please.

No prob NPFS.... Silent tears can deal with something inside every person, something that just about nothing else can.

Godwin seems to be on a roll with this thread. I do get wobbly conscience on Dresden Martin. It cantilevers between not wanting a harsh word said against our brave brylcreem boys, as opposed to an action that did come close to an act of extermination.

When we entered the 21st Century I naively felt it to be an opportunity for humanity to turn it's back on war, you know try and airbrush the horrors of the previous Century. That lasted all of 21 months and 11 days. No turning of cheek on that occasion, so the Beast was woken once again with the unthinkable now becoming daily evermore thinkable.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
The bit that tends to get left out when the Hitler war is raised as an anti-pacifist argument is the question - If everybody in 1930s Germany who called themselves a Christian had also followed the biblical teaching on pacifism, what would Hitler have done for an army? Not to mention that if all those Germans had believed in pacifism, would they have voted for Hitler in the first place??

How could they? And how could they not? These are the social evolutionary culs-de-sac we have to explore until we have nothing else to do but try social justice.

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Mudfrog
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Is it too simplistic to say that perhaps the conflicts over the last century are entirely down to the very damaged people that were given (or took) power?

Lenin and Stalin.
Kaiser Wilhelm,
Adolf Hitler
...and all the postwar 'odd people' up to and including our present North Korean 'oddball'...

...none of these people went to war or revolution as a result of the popular democratic will of a change-desiring people; they were all megalomaniacs with serious personality issues and inbred violent tendencies that would crush a political opponent using various means of assassination at whim. Yes, they saw opportunity and rode on the backs of people who wanted genuine and sincere change, but they used their own people as much as they destroyed (or tried to destroy) their enemies.

The bloody century that we call 'Twentieth' is not a century of nations rising against nation, so much as wicked leaders dragging their people into a war with the weaker, defenceless leaders of other peaceful countries.

It seems to me that waging war against such men is entirely proper - though I am guessing that it might actually be 'cleaner' simply to 'take out' that leader and place human beings in his place.

Would I support the assassination of Hitler?
Yes, I think Bonhoeffer was right to sanction it.
Had it succeeded, and had it happened in 1939, the world would be a lot better.

[ 30. April 2017, 14:19: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

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Martin60
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Yes it's too simplistic. Hindsight's wonderful isn't it? There were 14 plots to assassinate Hitler, which would you have participated in?

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Steve Langton
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John 18 - was Pilate right to declare Jesus innocent?
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leo
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The article linked to in the OP is flawed because it confuses 'passive' with 'pacifist' - they happen to sound alike in English but their derivations are completely different.

[ 01. May 2017, 17:54: Message edited by: leo ]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

Would I support the assassination of Hitler?
Yes, I think Bonhoeffer was right to sanction it.
Had it succeeded, and had it happened in 1939, the world would be a lot better.

Wiki suggest knowledge more that sanction and those plots were in 1943. Fewer people would have died. But not sure who else the world would have been "better".

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Martin60
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I'm impressed at how bad predictive text can be!

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