homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Religion stunts your personal growth (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Religion stunts your personal growth
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
[qb] We could easily argue that the topic as originally posted is dismissive of the religious. But let's set that aside.

Let's do, because it isn't. If anything, it is a challenge to religion to become what it can be.

But if religion is unnecessary for morality, as you've said, that why does it need to 'be' anything?

You may mean that it ought to stop making good people do bad things, to coin a phrase, and restrict itself to providing pleasant spiritual thoughts for people who seem to need religion for that sort of thing.

However, it could be argued that more and more people have other outlets for those needs: art, music, sport, physical endeavour, etc.

The kinds of people who are increasingly likely to indulge in religion are perhaps the least likely to keep it strictly in its place, while the market for aesthetic, low key, spiritual but not dogmatic or obtrusive religiosity appears to be fairly limited. Although there will always be a few sophisticated people who'll find it interesting.

Posts: 6024 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
We may not be understanding each other. There is a literature which discusses primate and human evolution with religion being part of the evolutionary processes. I accept evolution, and also accept that human religious behaviour is inevitable because of our evolution.

What I have read suggests religion is possible because our brains evolved enough for it to happen.* Which is the reverse of what you seem to be saying.

*Or, if you prefer, evolved enough to understand

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 15507 | From: out of the corner of your eye | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But if religion is unnecessary for morality, as you've said, that why does it need to 'be' anything?

Because it is the guide many people use.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 15507 | From: out of the corner of your eye | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378

 - Posted      Profile for Gramps49   Email Gramps49   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry, no prophet, my last comment was not directed at you. I actually think we are on the same page.

To the comment that religion gives us racism, sexism, homophobia and the like To be sure people have used religion to justify their prejudices, but I look at the Bible, in particular, I see very little reference to race. Jesus was very much a feminist in his day (we have just carried it further). Other than just seven "killer verses" (as I call them), there is practically no reference to same-sex relationships.

The one issue that does stick is the issue of slavery It was a part of the economic system when the Bible was written.

But, over time, Christianity has evolved and changed its views on many social issues.

The American Civil Rights Movement has long used religion in its progress. Religion still speaks to social issues of today.

Posts: 1805 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
lilBuddha

The problem, as I've implied, is that kinds of religious people of whom you most disapprove wouldn't be interested in a reformed religiosity of the kind you'd like.

You remind me of non-religious folk who admire Quakerism and wish all Christians were Quakers. Unfortunately, people who are already Christians in other churches have their own reasons for not being Quakers. The best people to become Quakers are obviously the ones who say how much they admire the movement!

Posts: 6024 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Sorry, no prophet, my last comment was not directed at you. I actually think we are on the same page.

To the comment that religion gives us racism, sexism, homophobia and the like To be sure people have used religion to justify their prejudices, but I look at the Bible, in particular, I see very little reference to race. Jesus was very much a feminist in his day (we have just carried it further). Other than just seven "killer verses" (as I call them), there is practically no reference to same-sex relationships.

The one issue that does stick is the issue of slavery It was a part of the economic system when the Bible was written.

But, over time, Christianity has evolved and changed its views on many social issues.

The American Civil Rights Movement has long used religion in its progress. Religion still speaks to social issues of today.

Yes, I think we are reading from the same page. I am reminded of the following also, which is a quote, from memory, and I don't know from whom:

"Someone said to me that religion causes war and violence, so we should do away with religion. That sounds like false news. I thought war and violence were caused by people wanting power over others so as to take their resources and money, to enrich themselves: something most religions specifically preach against."

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10297 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Not certain you read me correctly.
For Christianity, following Jesus' words would lead to personal growth. I'd go as far as to say that without it, there is no spiritual growth.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 15507 | From: out of the corner of your eye | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
spiritual growth ≠ personal growth

There are no such promises.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10297 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
spiritual growth ≠ personal growth

There are no such promises.

[Roll Eyes] If you are not becoming a better person, you are not growing spiritually.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 15507 | From: out of the corner of your eye | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You name the problem. The de-centring of self as the pivot point of all existence is much more important to my understanding. Living life for others. Being kind. Are you trying to shoehorn religion to some form of human potentialism?

God, as you may (or may not) conceive of a god, doesn't care nearly as much about individuals, their growth as we would like to suppose. We're not so important. But by trying to align ourselves with the totality of things, really take part in life within the world of people and things, and not just regard ourselves as a kind of miraculous creation in ourselves, worthy of growth (or as I've noted of epiphanies in my current sig). Not regarding the rest of the world as a sort of stage and background scenery against which we actualize ourselves.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10297 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
So God isn't immanent?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 15548 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
AndyHB
Apprentice
# 18580

 - Posted      Profile for AndyHB   Author's homepage   Email AndyHB   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

No religion is the default. Religion should improve, but I don't think it does.
I think it can and I think it should. But I also think it difficult.

I'd have to disagree lilBuddha. I do not see religion doing anything, which is why neither Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, nor any of the other religions 'do anything'. Rather, it is the relationship with the deity (and that is the Christian God for me) that does everything. As a Christian, I believe that I should be becoming more Christ-like every day - I accept that on many days I fail, but I'm working on that, with his help.

--------------------
TWAM is always on the look-out for unwanted tools. Check-out website - www.twam.uk - for 'tools wanted' lists and collector contact details.

Posts: 15 | From: S.Wales | Registered: Apr 2016  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
You name the problem. The de-centring of self as the pivot point of all existence is much more important to my understanding. Living life for others. Being kind. Are you trying to shoehorn religion to some form of human potentialism?

God, as you may (or may not) conceive of a god, doesn't care nearly as much about individuals, their growth as we would like to suppose. We're not so important. But by trying to align ourselves with the totality of things, really take part in life within the world of people and things, and not just regard ourselves as a kind of miraculous creation in ourselves, worthy of growth (or as I've noted of epiphanies in my current sig). Not regarding the rest of the world as a sort of stage and background scenery against which we actualize ourselves.

There is some good stuff here. I would say that there is a further development, where aligning myself with the 'totality of things' begins to blur, and there is no distinction. Most religions seem to encode this, and I wonder if it is just a natural process, partly to do with getting older. The foreground and the background begin to blend, and 'actualizing myself' seems laughable, since this already happens in everything.

But I think you are right about overcoming that early narcissism, which most forms of spirituality fall foul of, and why wouldn't they? No egg, no chicken.

--------------------
hell isn't punishment, it's training.

Posts: 9124 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Makepiece
Shipmate
# 10454

 - Posted      Profile for Makepiece   Email Makepiece   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There is of course a great deal of empirical evidence that religion does lead to personal growth including:

health benefits

http://www.jstor.org/stable/3512217?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Lower crime rates

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0191886996000232

and more secure attachment styles (notably this is particularly the case for people who experienced insecure attachment as a child suggesting 'growth')

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167292183002

[ 20. May 2017, 15:28: Message edited by: Makepiece ]

--------------------
Don't ask for whom the bell tolls...

Posts: 921 | From: Nottingham | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Religion leads to more altrusim.

Canadian Survey: 67 per cent of the religiously committed favoured helping others. For non-believers, 65 per cent chose the pursuit of happiness.

So religion creates less self-centredness.

Posts: 10297 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Religion leads to more altrusim.

Canadian Survey: 67 per cent of the religiously committed favoured helping others. For non-believers, 65 per cent chose the pursuit of happiness.

So religion creates less self-centredness.

Self-reported. Which might vary a bit in practice.
Religion is often cited as being more charitable, but when you factor out giving to one's own church, the numbers tell a different story.
The religious are also less likely to be supportive of LGBT+, not exactly altruistic.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 15507 | From: out of the corner of your eye | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools