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Source: (consider it) Thread: Schismatics and Episcopi neo-vagantes
Arethosemyfeet
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It appears that the pro-apartheid schismatic group formerly known as the Church of England in South Africa has taken it upon itself to consecrate a hardline conservative evangelical bishop in ++Sentamu Ebor's province of York. While not a GAFCON project it is clear that this is a consequence of Canterbury's appeasement of schismatics in North America, and that you can never be homophobic or sexist enough to satisfy this faction in the church.

It's obviously disappointing that people are willing to play these games with the church, but it seems likely that this will just lead to their "new reformation" being a historical curiosity and leave England's established church free to show stronger leadership on issues of justice.

PS while I know this particular carriage is pulled by a couple of dead horses it's the ecclesiological implications rather than the theology of those aforementioned steads that I'm interested in here.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

PS while I know this particular carriage is pulled by a couple of dead horses it's the ecclesiological implications rather than the theology of those aforementioned steads that I'm interested in here.

I'm not sure there are really any ecclesiastical implications. It is fairly clear that Canterbury is only a figurehead of the global Anglican communion and that there is nothing to be done with regard to who other jurisdictions associate with.

It seems to me that the engagement with GAFCON was an effort to see if there was a way to keep things together, but that's just proven to be impossible and those who are pushing that agenda are looking for a way out.

With respect to Anglican bishops and/or clergy in England under different jurisdictions - well, meh. It happens in many other countries in Europe, it happens in many other places in the Middle East and elsewhere.

The only issue here it seems to me is if this curate/Bishop is attempting to continue in his CofE parish. I can't imagine that can be allowed to continue - but I can't really see there is an issue with another Anglican sect ordaining Bishops with or without the support of renegade Anglican Primates.

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arse

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american piskie
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I don't suppose that those who live at the start of a "reformation" recognise it for what it is; but even so I don't think this is it. And yet, and yet..

Maybe if one takes a broader view this is just a small part of a sort of reformation that is going on in The Western Church. I'm lumping together in a crude way the Lefevrists, the Ordinariates, the GAFCON subsidiaries and so on; and the placatory responses to these developments from the historic power centres. Maybe in fifty years time it will turn out that the centralised post-Reformation model will have given way to a looser federation of mutually suspicious factions (underpinned of course by impeccable theology proving this is how things ought to be.)

But more seriously, I don't think this ordination presages anything of importance.

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Doc Tor
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(declaration of interest - this is my old shack)

Arethosemyfeet is referring to this.

I have mixed feelings about this, ranging from 'WTAF' to 'This is going to end very badly'. But a few observations.

1. Bishops are not made in secret. To essentially sneak off, and hold a ceremony in private, and only announce it later, shows that they knew they were doing something wrong. Any post hoc justification is mealy-mouthed sophistry.

2. Bishops should be in authority, not under authority. Jonathan Pryke (a decent man, but incredibly - some might argue pathologically - loyal to David Holloway) has taken this step only because David Holloway can't. It's Holloway who'll be pulling the strings here. Why can't Holloway take this move? Because he's the priest in charge, and if he loses that post, they lose the building.

3. You cannot serve two masters. This has been painfully obvious for over 30 years, but successive bishops of Newcastle have been content to wait out Holloway's appointment. The gift of the parish lies with the bishop. However, it seems painfully obvious that if you're going to be consecrated as a bishop in one church, and try to remain a priest in holy orders in another, that's not going to work. Pryke should resign his CofE credentials at once, before the inevitable Canon Law proceedings begin. He should, of course, have done this before.

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Forward the New Republic

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mr cheesy
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I quite like the idea of "reciprocal heresy trials". Good luck with that.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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I think it is probably true that CofE discipline measures are in a mess and that it isn't easy to unseat a priest. But it is a whole lot easier if he is a priest-in-charge, one would think.

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arse

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I quite like the idea of "reciprocal heresy trials". Good luck with that.

It's just posturing. Holloway knows he's crossed a line, and that the bishop (the actual bishop, who is, delightfully and ironically a woman) will have to move against him.

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Forward the New Republic

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Martin60
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Of the 1% of the English population who turn up to CoE services what % could be affected by this in any way? 10% are Yorkies

So of the 50,000 Yorkshire CoEers by darkening a church door, how many? Beyond any of the 2,000 in York? And how many of them?

Or is the risk to the general population?

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Love wins

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Steve Langton
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I attended Jesmond Parish Church while a student at Newcastle, along with many other evangelical students and like me, not all of them were Anglicans. Jesmond was simply the convenient local evangelical church for a lot of us.

Jesmond then was a fairly ordinary CofE evangelical church similar to one I had attended at home before changing as a sixth-former to a more convenient former-Brethren independent evangelical church. I understand that there was something in the circumstances of Jesmond's founding which gave it a degree of independence within the diocese and indeed within the wider church, including I think more say than usual in the appointment of the Vicar.

I met David Holloway at least once as, I think, a newly appointed curate, a few years older than me. Later as part of my research into church/state issues I acquired a copy of his book Church and State in the New Millennium and found it much not to my taste. He is an Anglican who very much believes in establishment or at least massive formal legal privilege/influence for the Church - but also believes that the Church must be more faithfully evangelical to exercise that privileged position properly.

I can see why he would be exploiting that degree of independence at Jesmond to push the kind of agenda seen in the Pryke consecration. He is a very good example of why the establishment is a bad thing. Apart from his belief in establishment he is fairly theologically sound - trouble is that combined with the belief in a state church that is a very toxic combination.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:

I can see why he would be exploiting that degree of independence at Jesmond to push the kind of agenda seen in the Pryke consecration. He is a very good example of why the establishment is a bad thing. Apart from his belief in establishment he is fairly theologically sound - trouble is that combined with the belief in a state church that is a very toxic combination.

You make no sense. What is a toxic combination with what? Belief in the state church and "sound (!) Evangelical theology"?

Why are you commenting on this subject? I get that you have some connection with the church, but why does it matter to you if the consecration somehow upsets the Anglican setup (or not)?

Answer - it doesn't. You're just pushing your tired agenda once again. [Roll Eyes]

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arse

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Eutychus
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hosting/

Lay off the ad hominem comments.

/hosting

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Doc Tor
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To be fair to Steve (I know, I know [Roll Eyes] ), Holloway clings to the CofE like a limpet because he sees it as the 'best boat to fish from'. He enjoys the privilege of being an ordained minister in the established religion, without being overmuch troubled by the obligations to follow the rules. So there is some of that.

He is much more attached to the building of Jesmond Parish Church, however. Losing that would be a real blow, even though they have two other (independent) churches, which are cloaked in 'anglican' clothes without ever coming straight out and saying they are not CofE.

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Forward the New Republic

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

He is much more attached to the building of Jesmond Parish Church, however. Losing that would be a real blow, even though they have two other (independent) churches, which are cloaked in 'anglican' clothes without ever coming straight out and saying they are not CofE.

Come again?

You mean something like Glenfall in Cheltenham - in it, but not really..

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arse

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Martin60
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So a couple of hundred then?

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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Apols, it looks like the strange relationship between Glenfall and the diocese of Gloucester has been regularised by a Bishops Mission Order.

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arse

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

He is much more attached to the building of Jesmond Parish Church, however. Losing that would be a real blow, even though they have two other (independent) churches, which are cloaked in 'anglican' clothes without ever coming straight out and saying they are not CofE.

Come again?

You mean something like Glenfall in Cheltenham - in it, but not really..

These are 'anglican' churches outside of the diocese, under control of the Jesmond Trust (aka David Holloway). There is a history of irregular ordinations, and several family members of the three senior ministers are on the payroll.

(eta outside diocesean control, but geographically inside the diocese)

[ 11. May 2017, 10:25: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]

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Forward the New Republic

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
These are 'anglican' churches outside of the diocese, under control of the Jesmond Trust (aka David Holloway). There is a history of irregular ordinations, and several family members of the three senior ministers are on the payroll.

(eta outside diocesean control, but geographically inside the diocese)

It appears that more-or-less congregational polity Conservative Evangelical Anglican-ish churches are much more common than I was aware.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Conservative_Evangelical_Anglican_churches_in_England

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arse

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
I don't suppose that those who live at the start of a "reformation" recognise it for what it is; but even so I don't think this is it. And yet, and yet..

Maybe if one takes a broader view this is just a small part of a sort of reformation that is going on in The Western Church. I'm lumping together in a crude way the Lefevrists, the Ordinariates, the GAFCON subsidiaries and so on; and the placatory responses to these developments from the historic power centres. Maybe in fifty years time it will turn out that the centralised post-Reformation model will have given way to a looser federation of mutually suspicious factions (underpinned of course by impeccable theology proving this is how things ought to be.)

But more seriously, I don't think this ordination presages anything of importance.

I share your assessment that it won't likely amount to a great deal in the general scheme of things.

However - I'm not sure you can yoke together the Lefevrists, the Ordinariate and GAFCON in that way. Two of those (the first and third) are essentially rigorists. The word "puritan" describes a particular manifestation of this - and maybe GAFCON can be said to be heirs of that manifestation. I only mention it as I think it better illustrates why protestantism is always likely to suffer from this sort of thing the most.

The Ordinariate is more of a "back to the mother ship" sort of movement - a reconciliation of a pre-existing split rather than a new fissure. There have been far more of these (albeit small in size) in the Catholic and Orthodox end of things.

Whilst as an Anglican myself I deplore further dividing the body of Christ - so I'm not going to be part of any schism - I do think that getting all worked up over schisms within Anglicanism whilst ignoring our own state of schism in the larger western church is somehow missing the main point.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:

Whilst as an Anglican myself I deplore further dividing the body of Christ - so I'm not going to be part of any schism - I do think that getting all worked up over schisms within Anglicanism whilst ignoring our own state of schism in the larger western church is somehow missing the main point.

I don't really care who splits with who, that seems to be an inevitable part of any religious movement.

But it is somewhat .. erm.. disrespectful, I think, to use the structures of the Church of England to create other structures which are not.

I wish people would have the courage of their convictions and either go or stay.

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arse

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Gee D
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Honest Ron Bacardi , Yes and No to your puritan point. Certainly the spiritual ancestors of the Moore College group are the 17th century puritans, rather than any Anglican school of thought. I don't agree that the same can be said for others in GAFCON though, whose theology and churchmanship cover the range of Anglicanism.

There are many similarities between the Jesmond group and those who eventually left the C of E for Rome via the ordinariate road. Think of the bishops who said that they were going to leave, but waited until they had been paid by the C of E over the Christmas period, all the while declining to carry out episcopal functions. Not that much difference to what's going on at Jesmond.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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I entirely agree, Mr. Cheesy. Though the tendency towards splitting appears to be more of a human characteristic where voluntary societies are concerned.

GeeD - point taken. I was focussing more on the "rigorist" part of the equation though, which I think can still be said to apply to GAFCON despite its broader origins.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
These are 'anglican' churches outside of the diocese, under control of the Jesmond Trust (aka David Holloway). There is a history of irregular ordinations, and several family members of the three senior ministers are on the payroll.

(eta outside diocesean control, but geographically inside the diocese)

It appears that more-or-less congregational polity Conservative Evangelical Anglican-ish churches are much more common than I was aware.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Conservative_Evangelical_Anglican_churches_in_England

I think it unlikely that all self identifying conevo churches would support Gafcon, the various resolutions, or alternative Episcopal oversight. In one case, the vicar was formerly of the parish of which I was, at that time, a member, and he was certainly very pro women's ordination, indeed was married to an ordained priest. Though he has only recently come to the the listed parish, his predecessor was of a pretty much similar persuasion. Despite the self-identification, functionally they are open evo/charismatic lite.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
I think it unlikely that all self identifying conevo churches would support Gafcon, the various resolutions, or alternative Episcopal oversight. In one case, the vicar was formerly of the parish of which I was, at that time, a member, and he was certainly very pro women's ordination, indeed was married to an ordained priest. Though he has only recently come to the the listed parish, his predecessor was of a pretty much similar persuasion. Despite the self-identification, functionally they are open evo/charismatic lite.

As far as I can understand from browsing what is said about these churches this morning, many of these "Anglican heritage" (ie not in CofE) are essentially congregational churches. It doesn't look like they have much contact with any bishop, never mind the diocese one - so on that basis I doubt that they're particularly interested in GAFCON and alternative bishops.

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arse

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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
[del]

I do think that getting all worked up over schisms within Anglicanism whilst ignoring our own state of schism in the larger western church is somehow missing the main point. [/QB]

On that I am with you, and thought that the recent reports on the views of Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio, President of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, were a far more significant development than the Jesmond nonsense.


See Tablet Article

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Callan
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Originally posted by Jolly Jape:

quote:
I think it unlikely that all self identifying conevo churches would support Gafcon, the various resolutions, or alternative Episcopal oversight. In one case, the vicar was formerly of the parish of which I was, at that time, a member, and he was certainly very pro women's ordination, indeed was married to an ordained priest. Though he has only recently come to the the listed parish, his predecessor was of a pretty much similar persuasion. Despite the self-identification, functionally they are open evo/charismatic lite.

In a previous Deanery we had two conservative evangelical parishes both of which had retired women clergy on the strength. I think the official rationale was "It's fine for the ladies to celebrate the sacraments as long as a REAL MAN is in charge of the parish". I suspect that the actual position was: "I would like to go on holiday occasionally, if that's not too much to ask". Places like Jesmond can afford to play silly buggers with Episcopi Vagantes, most Con Evos, IME, are obliged to live in the real world and are quite often engaged in a balancing act between the faction of their congregation which is rather more hardline than they are, the other faction which regrets that some of their positions are not as liberal as they would like and the overwhelming majority who come because they appreciate the worship and the Sunday School and not because they regard their Sunday attendance as a vote for sticking it to The Other Lot. Before I had dealings with Con Evos I regarded them as a sinister faction who were out to destroy the C of E As We Know And Love It. Having got to know a few of them, I largely regard them as kindred spirits because they don't feel that the appropriate response to secularisation is to feel sorry for oneself, and because they have the personality type whose response to life is: "WHY DOESN'T EVERYTHING MAKE SENSE YOU BASTARDS!?"

tl;dr I don't think this will have much impact outwith a minority of very hardline parishes because people have other fish to fry. As one of my churchwardens remarked to me when she was asked to fill in a questionnaire about a particular Dead Horse: "I'm not doing this. I'm far to busy keeping my church on the road".

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It appears that the pro-apartheid schismatic group formerly known as the Church of England in South Africa has taken it upon itself to consecrate a hardline conservative evangelical bishop in ++Sentamu Ebor's province of York. *snip*

PS while I know this particular carriage is pulled by a couple of dead horses it's the ecclesiological implications rather than the theology of those aforementioned steads that I'm interested in here.

While not a fan of CESA-- I knew two of its products when I was at university-- its origins are older and deeper than might be suggested here. After its schism from Cape Town 150 years ago, it could only obtain bishops by hook or crook, usually by retired CoE evangelical prelates, until provided them by the Archbishop of Sydney in IIRC the 1930s. So they've always been "extra-provincial" in bishop matters. Their swims in irregularity are longstanding and their participation in this is not a shock to me however unhelpful it might be.

As well, it has always had a good presence among South African Blacks even if it was shy-- perhaps from its Erastian roots-- of criticizing apartheid as the CPSA (now ACSA) so notably did; so perhaps I am not sure if I would have called it pro-Apartheid although it is a debatable point.

As far as this episode is concerned, I do not know how or why Fr Pryke has not been disciplined by his diocesan, but our lives are full of mystery and, in the circles of Anglican canon law, there's an awful lot of mystery.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Having got to know a few of them, I largely regard them as kindred spirits because they don't feel that the appropriate response to secularisation is to feel sorry for oneself, and because they have the personality type whose response to life is: "WHY DOESN'T EVERYTHING MAKE SENSE YOU BASTARDS!?"

Well I guess one has to respect someone who has gone to the lengths some of them have gone to, and who stick their necks out and say that they're retaining something of Anglicanism whilst apparently being largely adrift and alone.

I respect that position - whilst not respecting the theology of some of what they're apparently saying. What I don't really respect is the "bridging" role some clergy seem to have with these churches that means they have whilst claiming the shilling from the CofE and apparently actively working to undermine it.

I think this little quote on the Jesmond Parish church website is quite revealing:

quote:
"I believe, under God, that over the next 5 years we can move to 2000 from the 1000 where we are now. And this particular race and course is set before us, not because we need it or would choose it, but because this city needs it and God, I believe, is guiding. But it will be costly and it will mean changes." from a sermon by David Holloway on 13th January 2013.
I'm not sure how you read that, but for me that's David Holloway planning a breakaway church.

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arse

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Jolly Jape
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That's very interesting, Callan, and rings after bells for me. Five years ago we were looking for a new church, and I knew of one, not quite local, that was renowned as a con evo shack, with an extremely conservative vicar. Nevertheless, we were urged to try the place by a guy who was in training for the ministry, sponsored by said church. Now I'm a cautious sort of guy, not known for snap judgements, but I absolutely loved the place. When I spoke to the vicar, a man whom I had previously viewed as a fully paid up member of the Neanderthal club, I found him to be not only a kindred spirit, but a man of deep spirituality and grace. Furthermore, he was struggling to bring his congregation along on a more inclusive and more charismatic path. His reputation had been sealed a years before, with no cognisance taken of his growth as a human being over his years in ministry. It was a bit too far for us to go, but I could certainly have seen myself as a member of that church, despite it being a theoretically poor fit theologically.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Jolly Jape
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My experience of CofE disciplinary action is that it almost never happens unless there is either illegality or sexual scandal, or unless the disciplinee is gay, in which case it's open season.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Callan
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Originally posted by Mr Cheesy:

quote:
I respect that position - whilst not respecting the theology of some of what they're apparently saying. What I don't really respect is the "bridging" role some clergy seem to have with these churches that means they have whilst claiming the shilling from the CofE and apparently actively working to undermine it.

I don't have a lot of time for that either. But I suspect that wouldn't be a fair characterisation of most Conservative Evangelicals within the Church of England.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
My experience of CofE disciplinary action is that it almost never happens unless there is either illegality or sexual scandal, or unless the disciplinee is gay, in which case it's open season.

You could well be right. But I imagine the Bishop of Newcastle is being urged by her diocesan synod advisers to pull the trigger on this one. There is very little love lost (you may or may not consider the irony) between the bulk of the diocese and JPC, and this could well be the clear breach of Canon law they can pin years of baiting on.

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leo
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I didn't realise Holloway was still alive - they used to wheel him out on TV discussions as a rent-a-bigot

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
My experience of CofE disciplinary action is that it almost never happens unless there is either illegality or sexual scandal, or unless the disciplinee is gay, in which case it's open season.

You could well be right. But I imagine the Bishop of Newcastle is being urged by her diocesan synod advisers to pull the trigger on this one. There is very little love lost (you may or may not consider the irony) between the bulk of the diocese and JPC, and this could well be the clear breach of Canon law they can pin years of baiting on.
Ah, but that would require the presence of a vestigial spine somewhere in the diocese in the face of the potential loss of the big, fat parish share presumably paid by Jesmond into diocesan funds. I don't know Newcastle diocese, but if it's anything like mine, that's a big ask.

Btw, has anyone ever seen a church building that looks more like an intimidating fortress than JPC. Somehow appropriate, really.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I didn't realise Holloway was still alive - they used to wheel him out on TV discussions as a rent-a-bigot

I thought that was Tony Higton, a man so pompous in his self-righteousness that he would give even the mildest of saints the irresistible urge to slap him in the face. [Devil]

Perhaps they took turns.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I didn't realise Holloway was still alive - they used to wheel him out on TV discussions as a rent-a-bigot

I thought that was Tony Higton, a man so pompous in his self-righteousness that he would give even the mildest of saints the irresistible urge to slap him in the face. [Devil]

Perhaps they took turns.

IIRC, Higton has a fleeting cameo in Stephen Bates' book 'The Church At War'. Apparently he moved on to a gig in Jerusalem and when asked about his previous activities said something to the effect that he had reassessed his priorities in the light of his subsequent experiences.

It might be a bit hard on the Holy City, but perhaps ++Justin could start preparing a shit list of people for deportation. [Devil]

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Jolly Jape
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What about a new Anglican diocese? Antarctica, for example. (Well, we've already got the Southern Cone)"

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Apparently he moved on to a gig in Jerusalem and when asked about his previous activities said something to the effect that he had reassessed his priorities in the light of his subsequent experiences.

Sounds like a right moron, although relevant to this discussion, I'd be interested to know exactly what diocese his old gig in Christ Church, Jerusalem is under. It doesn't appear to be a parish of the Diocese of Jerusalem under Abp Suheil and seems to just be another autonomous church run by the CMJ, whatever that is.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Ah, but that would require the presence of a vestigial spine somewhere in the diocese in the face of the potential loss of the big, fat parish share presumably paid by Jesmond into diocesan funds. I don't know Newcastle diocese, but if it's anything like mine, that's a big ask.

They haven't paid their parish share for nigh on thirty years.

So even a nominally chordate bishop could manage this one...

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
What about a new Anglican diocese? Antarctica, for example. (Well, we've already got the Southern Cone)"

Good point. They'd get on with the Shoggoths like an Eldritch City on fire.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
They haven't paid their parish share for nigh on thirty years.

So even a nominally chordate bishop could manage this one...

Quelle Surpise [Roll Eyes]

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
As far as I can understand from browsing what is said about these churches this morning, many of these "Anglican heritage" (ie not in CofE) are essentially congregational churches. It doesn't look like they have much contact with any bishop, never mind the diocese one - so on that basis I doubt that they're particularly interested in GAFCON and alternative bishops.

I assume you actually meant the list in section 2 of the link you posted, i.e:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Conservative_Evangelical_Anglican_churches_in_England#Outside_the_Church_of_England

whereas presumably JJ was taking you to refer to all the churches on that list (all resolution A churches).

And even with section 2, you could argue that it's the first three groups (sorted by affiliation) that really fall into the category you identify. The Church of England (Continuing) group - for instance - are the result of a previous schism, and do still appoint Bishops within their own group.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Ah, but that would require the presence of a vestigial spine somewhere in the diocese in the face of the potential loss of the big, fat parish share presumably paid by Jesmond into diocesan funds. I don't know Newcastle diocese, but if it's anything like mine, that's a big ask.

They haven't paid their parish share for nigh on thirty years.

So even a nominally chordate bishop could manage this one...

I take it that is the biological meaning, nothing ecclesiastical. Most droll.

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mr cheesy
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That's right, chris stiles, sorry I wasn't clear.

I was only interested in those churches, as Doc Tor mentioned above, like those connected to the Jesmond Parish church.

I'm sorry I confused it by linking to the WP page which obviously included a load of other churches in various different circumstances.

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arse

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Albertus
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Holloway, I take it, is the Vicar, with a freehold, no? But I assume that this man Pryke is legally an Assistant Curate. What is the process for the Bishop depriving an assistant curate of his licence?

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mr cheesy
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According to Doc Tor above, he's a priest-in-charge, so presumably no freehold.

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Albertus
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He's been there since 1973 which seems a long time for a p-i-c. Their own website, I see, lists him as Vicar. So some uncertainty there, since Doc Tor seems to know the place quite well.

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mousethief

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Could a kindly host please fix the broken scroll?

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Doc Tor
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Sorry, yes. David Holloway is Vicar of Jesmond, so is in until he retires (which can't be far away - anyone with access to a Crockfords?). But the gift of the parish rests with the diocese, so when he goes, it's up to the bishop to (at the very least) ratify the new vicar.

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Jolly Jape
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Thinking Anglicans report that David Holloway is in his mid seventies, which presumably means that he was appointed before there was a mandatory retirement age for Clergy, so he could be there until he shuffles off this mortal coil to be totally surprised at the company he is obliged to keep for the rest of eternity. Who says God doesn' have a sense of humour!

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Albertus
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Compulsory retirement at 70 came in in 1975 but doesn't apply to people holding an office/ benefice at that date, so long as they continue to hold it. He must be one of the last incumbents in that category.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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