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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Affirmative Action, or "Positive" Discrimination (Page 8)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Affirmative Action, or "Positive" Discrimination
Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Which is so universalizable that anybody who claims to have experienced different is clearly taking bollocks. Someone needs a Copernican revolution.

You (and perhaps lilBuddha) are the ones proclaiming the universal applicability of the "all people who pass this bar are equivalent" position. My claim is that this is not universally true - and that in my experience (which is by no means universal) it is typically false.

quote:
No, in high tech, this is not always the case.It can be terribly difficult to find someone you're prepared to take. This is why they import people from Asia rather than hiring Americans. There just aren't enough qualified people.
This is completely independent of what I said. I made no comment on the ease of finding occupants of either groups 1 or 2 - just that they existed. In your example, you're saying that there are no occupants of either group 1 or 2 that are American. OK.

quote:
Yes, exactly. Better to keep looking than to hire somebody who will be a detriment to the company.
My claim is that group 2 is not a detriment to the company. Group 3 would be - that's why you don't hire them.

quote:
And is this often the case? There's always a rock star out there just waiting for you to hire them? This is a fantasy.
My entire point is that there isn't always a rockstar, but that when there is one, you want to hire him, rather than hiring the first acceptable.


quote:
Is he?
Well, yes. My claim is that Bob exists. I think it's obvious that the chip shop, for example, would prefer 30-customer-per-hour-Alice to 15-customer-per-hour-Bob (unless it had very few customers), and equally obvious that hiring Bob is better than having even longer queues because the owner's trying to do everything himself.

It's equally obvious that Dennis, who tends to drop food on the floor and is at serious risk of placing himself in the fryer, would be worse than nobody.

quote:
I'm not sure the comparison to marriage is at all meaningful.
The thing I learned as the "marriage problem" is apparently also (better?) known as the Secretary Problem.

quote:
You use the word "nonsense" far too readily. Your life is not normative.
But for your argument (server speed doesn't matter) to be true, you require almost all people to behave in the way that you describe. For my argument to be true, I need only some potential customers to be put off by the long queues. The effect becomes stronger the more people are like that, of course, but it exists as long as some people are like that.

quote:
Nobody said anything about crappy service. Don't change the subject. The difference was between normal speed service and extraordinary service because somebody's nephew is an overachiever. Although of course he won't be the only server, so the relative average speed of service between the two chipperies will be marginal.
Where I come from, slow service is crappy. If you have servers of two speeds, it doesn't matter whether you label one of them "fast" and one "normal" or one "normal" and one "slow" - the relative crappiness of the slower server is the same.

I've spent the day dealing with a bunch of incompetents who couldn't organize their way out of a wet paper bag, which is probably the source of my labelling the "normal" service as crappy. But it makes no difference whether we talk about normal vs crappy or fast vs normal.

Posts: 4900 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Where I come from, slow service is crappy.

Well yes you've pretty much admitted that you don't care where you eat as long as it's fast. Whatevs.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
My observation is that in most white collar environments a significant portion of any job can end up being fairly generic and not particularly anything to do with the ostensible specialty of the department to which someone is assigned.

My observation, which admittedly is based on limited experience, is that jobs at the 'grunt' level are specifically designed so that the people who do them are interchangeable, whereas when you start gaining decision-making capacity, then to a certain extent you also get to set the parameters of what your job is for. Neither of which really mesh with the concept of 'best candidate for the job'.
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Everybody who has been supporting the idea that you'd rather have a "good" person than an "adequate" person has also been saying that you'd rather have an "adequate" person than a vacancy. This is not inconsistent with that.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that the concept of a best candidate suggests that in a hypothetical perfectly efficient labour market, everyone would be the best candidate for the job they are doing. Which doesn't seem likely to me, because in terms of ability I don't think people are all that unique.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
People get put off chippies by long queues, which can be created by slower servers. And efficient counter service is good for the reputation of the place.

But again, most jobs aren't so standalone.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
You (and perhaps lilBuddha) are the ones proclaiming the universal applicability of the "all people who pass this bar are equivalent" position. My claim is that this is not universally true - and that in my experience (which is by no means universal) it is typically false.

I said most jobs and I said competent people and that this combination will result in no substantive difference between competent and "the best". I did not say 'universal'. This in my experience and observation.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I said most jobs and I said competent people and that this combination will result in no substantive difference between competent and "the best". I did not say 'universal'. This in my experience and observation.

Fair enough - that's why I gave you a perhaps, as I couldn't remember where you drew the line. mousethief seems to have taken a rather stronger stance.

I think it's clear, by the way, that there are some kinds of job for which you are right. On an assembly line, for example, as long as you can keep up with the line, you're doing OK. There is literally no benefit from doing better.

In the general case, our experiences obviously differ. It would be interesting to know how much of that was really different experiences (different kinds of job etc.) and how much of that is different perceptions.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I suppose what I'm getting at is that the concept of a best candidate suggests that in a hypothetical perfectly efficient labour market, everyone would be the best candidate for the job they are doing. Which doesn't seem likely to me, because in terms of ability I don't think people are all that unique.

But they wouldn't, because of comparative advantage. You might be a much better widget waxer than the person who you employ to wax your widgets, but you still choose to employ him because it frees you up to make enormous stacks of cash diddling doohickeys.

Perhaps you'd wax your own widgets for a special occasion.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Where I come from, slow service is crappy.

Well yes you've pretty much admitted that you don't care where you eat as long as it's fast. Whatevs.
Perhaps you'd like to read this again?

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

Sure - if the F&C is great, and I really want F&C, and I have plenty of time, I'll get in the queue. But if I'm a bit rushed, or I'm not completely sold on fish and chips, then crappy service means I'm more likely to pick up a Chinese instead.

It's a multidimensional optimization. Quality of service is one dimension. Quality of food is another. Degree to which style of food matches my current hankerings is a third. My schedule and time constraints are a fourth. My willingness to cook today is probably a fifth.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

In the general case, our experiences obviously differ. It would be interesting to know how much of that was really different experiences (different kinds of job etc.) and how much of that is different perceptions.

This can be difficult to separate and perception is a strong factor.
Let us build a bridge. Most people would see the building one as having the technical challenges of something like the Millay Viaduct, when most are like this. Known designs with known parameters and known solutions with specified guidelines. And there is no single designer, but multiple people in multiple disciplines to cooperate and cross-check. More jobs are analogous to this than they are to innovative projects like the Millay.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Barnabas62
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My grandson has just made me chuckle. Said the most difficult over the counter order he got (without prior warning) was for 27 people, lots of variations, paid for in cash (mostly coinage). It was for an old people's home and the order was placed by an elderly person. He was also asked to carry the food to the car for the customer. Which he did.

'Did you get a tip" I asked. "No chance" he replied. "People don't top in chippies. But I did keep smiling throughout."

[ 28. August 2017, 16:12: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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