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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Are the English obsessed by Class?
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Class =/= money.
That's what makes it so fascinating. You're right - the difference between "old money" and "new money" better illustrates what class is about than any comparison of richer and poorer.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Yes, but the "new money" of one generation turns into "old money" in the next (or next-but-one) - especially if the children have been sent to a Public School - surely the hot-houses for instilling class consciousness.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Agreed that a lot of comedy is class based - but doesn't that indicate that we don't take class seriously any more?
It indicates the opposite. Humour takes real life and pushes or twists it.
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Class is not a problem to most unless you see yourself as either better than others,
This is the purpose of class.
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, but the "new money" of one generation turns into "old money" in the next (or next-but-one) - especially if the children have been sent to a Public School - surely the hot-houses for instilling class consciousness.
Money one generation back doesn't make one posh.
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
I wonder whether this thread would feature in any other culture than in England? And discussed with such relish and sophisticated analysis? India, perhaps?
Caste and class are discussed and debated in India. I do not have enough experience to make direct comparisons, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I don't know about obsessed, but it's there, and with the crushing of the middle classes, the gulf is simply wider between the haves and the have-nots. We ignore that at our peril.
Addressing this problem takes effort. Continuous and educated effort.
We are so fucked.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, but the "new money" of one generation turns into "old money" in the next (or next-but-one) - especially if the children have been sent to a Public School - surely the hot-houses for instilling class consciousness.
Haven't you heard of the down side of new money: "Clogs to clogs in three generations". It only takes one generation of wastrels to throw it all away.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Indeed I have. (Doesn't work south of Watford Gap, of course ...).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Sighthound
Shipmate
# 15185
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Posted
Get a bunch of English people who don't know each other and they almost always immediately start a subtle enquiry to ascertain who "outranks" who. What do you do? Where do you live? Etc. Etc. Sounds innocent, but isn't.
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Posts: 168 | From: England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sighthound:
Get a bunch of English people who don't know each other and they almost always immediately start a subtle enquiry to ascertain who "outranks" who. What do you do? Where do you live? Etc. Etc. Sounds innocent, but isn't.
You must, of course, speak for yourself. But to my mind, the function of these common conversational gambits is to establish some common point of interest to facilitate a conversation.
I meet some person somewhere, initial pleasantries are exchanged, and then what? Perhaps you do something I find interesting. Perhaps I do something you find interesting. Perhaps we have friends in common, or some knowledge or interest in the area in which the other person lives, or ...
You don't need those questions to determine some kind of social ranking. That comes for free from accent, word choice, bearing, and any number of other cues. What you do with that information, of course, is up to you.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
That reminds me of when I met my brother-in-law for the first time, who was a Tory MP. I have quite a strong Northern accent, and dress fairly scruffily. Hmm, a bit hard to place.
So, he had a brain-wave. 'Which school did you go to?'.
I mentioned a well-known public school, and he relaxed. I was sort in the club, although marginal, better check the silver tonight.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107
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Posted
My father was a parish priest in darkest Norfolk when I was in my late teens. At the Point-to-Point we had seats in the grandstand in the same row as the doctor and vet....which we found amusing!
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http://foodybooze.blogspot.co.za
Posts: 929 | From: Johannesburg, South Africa | Registered: Aug 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Sighthound:
Get a bunch of English people who don't know each other and they almost always immediately start a subtle enquiry to ascertain who "outranks" who. What do you do? Where do you live? Etc. Etc. Sounds innocent, but isn't.
You must, of course, speak for yourself. But to my mind, the function of these common conversational gambits is to establish some common point of interest to facilitate a conversation.
I think it is sometimes one, sometimes the other and often both. Much like the American version: ‘So, what do you do?’
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
So many stories. I was pally for a while with a rector in central London, ex-army officer, very posh guy, anyway, sometimes we used to go in Fortnum and Mason's to eat scrambled eggs. To quote the film, 'made it ma, top of the world'.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Most just get on with being people and meeting people.
I think the opposite is actually true: we all inhabit particular niches in our society and rarely interact with anyone who isn't in that niche,
My mileage varies on this.
There are different areas of life. You could have work colleagues, friends at church, be part of an interest in something, say a sports club, art class or something. Those in those circles are not necessarily in the same social class, and they in turn have their own circle.
Some may only react only within one niche, but there is no need to if you don't want to. I don't want to and so don't.
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blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Are the English (or should that be British) obsessed with Class? Hmm, I'd say sort of.
Actually its the Middle Class who are obsessed with Class - the uppers and others couldn't give a damn, and on the whole get on far better with each other than they do with the Middles.
But as my old nanny used to say, One should behave the same and speak the same whether you're with a dustman or a duchess: I think thats a pretty fair attitude,
And in the UK being upper class is definitely nothing to do with money: in fact bothering about whether or not someone is rich is definitely ill-bred and vulgar.
[ 03. November 2017, 00:36: Message edited by: L'organist ]
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Even in Austen's day, when class clearly mattered, people who worry about class distinctions were mocked, and shown to be fools of some kind.
Maybe it comes with being a vicar, but I meet all sorts of people, and get on with them - and they with me. If we have a falling out, it isn't about class, it's about opinions. Maybe I'm blind but I don't see the segregated society that some of you are talking about.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Even in Austen's day, when class clearly mattered, people who worry about class distinctions were mocked, and shown to be fools of some kind.
Up to a point. Emma is foolish not to think Robert Martin worthy of Harriet, and it's a sign that she's learnt her lessons once she would be pleased to meet him; but she'd never think of marrying him herself.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Actually its the Middle Class who are obsessed with Class - the uppers and others couldn't give a damn, and on the whole get on far better with each other than they do with the Middles.
As a tired old saw has already been discussed upthread, and demolished beautiful by Doc Tor.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Even in Austen's day, when class clearly mattered, people who worry about class distinctions were mocked, and shown to be fools of some kind.
Up to a point. Emma is foolish not to think Robert Martin worthy of Harriet, and it's a sign that she's learnt her lessons once she would be pleased to meet him; but she'd never think of marrying him herself.
I think that it's arrivistes who are mocked, such as Mrs Elton, with her airs and graces. Other people don't worry about class, because it's so entrenched. We don't expect a servant in any of her novels to become eloquent, or to flirt with one of the ladies.
It's quite striking, because Austen is justly famous for having feisty and articulate heroines, so she is changing the balance of the sexes, but class is a bridge too far.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Even in Austen's day, when class clearly mattered, people who worry about class distinctions were mocked, and shown to be fools of some kind.
Up to a point. Emma is foolish not to think Robert Martin worthy of Harriet, and it's a sign that she's learnt her lessons once she would be pleased to meet him; but she'd never think of marrying him herself.
I'm pretty sure it's more than that. Emma is the one who partially forgets class distinctions (or rather 'promotes' her friends to the Gentry), and is (as I understand it) mocked for it.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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