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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Power of Prayer?
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Of course, when we don't pray, remarkable things also happen. For example, people recover from cancer spontaneously. I don't know if anyone has ever done a statistical study of such things.
I know. There is a veritable minefield in exploring these happenings. I'd really like to read a statistical study carried out by people with no axe to grind in any direction. Being dogmatic does us no favours in these situations ISTM.
Just being thankful when these inexplicable things happen is perhaps the best bet!
And for me, part of being thankful is taking the situation throughout to God in prayer. It's different for many of my friends who say they have no faith.
But the thankfulness is a commonality.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I like your style MrsBeaky, I really do... BUT (you knew it was coming), it isn't extreme to deny magic. It isn't extreme, dogmatic (apart from in the ultimate etymology), explosive to have a (practically complete, all but exceptionless) physicalist worldview. Even for a Christian.
[ 14. January 2018, 14:41: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Confirmation bias is so strong. When my friend lost two young children, she did not see it as divine providence. But maybe 200 years ago, she might have done.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Yeaaaahhh. Gard juss wonnid two more liddle angels. He dint wonna leave one lonesome.
[ 14. January 2018, 14:59: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I like your style MrsBeaky, I really do... BUT (you knew it was coming), it isn't extreme to deny magic. It isn't extreme, dogmatic (apart from in the ultimate etymology), explosive to have a (practically complete, all but exceptionless) physicalist worldview. Even for a Christian.
I do apologise Martin- I'm not quite sure where it seemed like I was suggesting that such worldviews are extreme? It was never my intention. This is where a written conversation rather than a face to face one terrifies me as I hate being misunderstood or causing offence!
I recognise that I do believe things which you perhaps don't...but I am constantly reviewing my theology and praxis and eschew the dogmatism which the use of words like extreme could sometimes suggest!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Confirmation bias is so strong. When my friend lost two young children, she did not see it as divine providence. But maybe 200 years ago, she might have done.
You see it's things like this that I was trying to address above. I've seen and heard some awful things. Confirmation bias can indeed be a very dangerous thing. Some of my African friends would probably take the view you mention above.
I cannot.
But I also cannot abandon the relationship which above all others has sustained me throughout my life.
And part, albeit a very small part of that life has involved inexplicable things. For me God is in everything and so also in those inexplicable things. My analytical brain however can see how that could so easily be overturned in rational argument but my heart just will not let me go.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Yeaaaahhh. Gard juss wonnid two more liddle angels. He dint wonna leave one lonesome.
Try again with correct spellings. Drunken dialect like this requires decoding and is highly annoying.
I could reasonably ask in similar for you to "pet eating in shrivelled anguish".
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Confirmation bias is so strong. When my friend lost two young children, she did not see it as divine providence. But maybe 200 years ago, she might have done.
You see it's things like this that I was trying to address above. I've seen and heard some awful things. Confirmation bias can indeed be a very dangerous thing. Some of my African friends would probably take the view you mention above.
I cannot.
But I also cannot abandon the relationship which above all others has sustained me throughout my life.
And part, albeit a very small part of that life has involved inexplicable things. For me God is in everything and so also in those inexplicable things. My analytical brain however can see how that could so easily be overturned in rational argument but my heart just will not let me go.
Well, that's fine. I'm skeptical that people become religious for rational reasons, no more than they fall in love.
I became a Christian and stopped being one, definitely not out of rationality. I became interested, and I lost interest. The odd (and interesting) thing is that these things are not controllable.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I like your style MrsBeaky, I really do... BUT (you knew it was coming), it isn't extreme to deny magic. It isn't extreme, dogmatic (apart from in the ultimate etymology), explosive to have a (practically complete, all but exceptionless) physicalist worldview. Even for a Christian.
I do apologise Martin- I'm not quite sure where it seemed like I was suggesting that such worldviews are extreme? It was never my intention. This is where a written conversation rather than a face to face one terrifies me as I hate being misunderstood or causing offence!
I recognise that I do believe things which you perhaps don't...but I am constantly reviewing my theology and praxis and eschew the dogmatism which the use of words like extreme could sometimes suggest!
MrsBeaky, MrsBeaky. I totally retract my response to you. YOU could NEVER offend. And I take full responsibility for my misunderstanding. The apology is mine.
no..., just put on a strong mid-west American accent. I've not touched a drop.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Of course, when we don't pray, remarkable things also happen. For example, people recover from cancer spontaneously. I don't know if anyone has ever done a statistical study of such things.
I'm sure there are studies into these things, although I doubt they're conclusive.
Regarding cancer, I read a few popular books on it a few years ago. The claim is that attitudes as well as lifestyle have an impact on its progress, so the 'spontaneous' recoveries may actually indicate changes that a sufferer has made, consciously or otherwise. One author, who wasn't a 'religious' person, felt that a positive spirituality of some sort was an invaluable element in responding to the disease.
Mind you, I still think we end up with the same problem I mentioned earlier. How do you know that non-religious people are never the beneficiaries of prayer, even if they don't pray themselves? Individual Christians and congregations often pray for unnamed groups of people in challenging circumstances: the homeless population of a city, the local hospital, people who are suffering poor health in a a particular or general context. Who's to say that these have no impact (whatever that means)?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Me. There is no magic.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Just being thankful when these inexplicable things happen is perhaps the best bet!
And for me, part of being thankful is taking the situation throughout to God in prayer. It's different for many of my friends who say they have no faith.
But the thankfulness is a commonality.
That is very much the hub of what puts me on my knees ina closed room.
This isn’t to say I don’t sometimes make a short prayer for someone in need, or the general need of many. But underneath there is the feeling it won’t make any real difference.
It has been suggested that there is a greater degree of languishment in poorly people who know they are being prayed for. I wouldn’t know but think it would depend on a particular person and there circumstances.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Dormouse
Glis glis – Ship's rodent
# 5954
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Just being thankful when these inexplicable things happen is perhaps the best bet!
And for me, part of being thankful is taking the situation throughout to God in prayer. It's different for many of my friends who say they have no faith.
But the thankfulness is a commonality.
That is very much the hub of what puts me on my knees ina closed room.
This isn’t to say I don’t sometimes make a short prayer for someone in need, or the general need of many. But underneath there is the feeling it won’t make any real difference.
TBH this echoes my prayers - which so often contain the words "I know you could do this, but you're probably not going to" --- again, that sense that actually praying for a person/ group won't make much difference.
I especially feel like this during intercessory prayers at church - really, what use is the vague "we pray for those in war torn ares/ the homeless/ the whatever" unless it is a recognition that these people are in trouble and maybe we are the answer to prayer?
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What are you doing for Lent?
40 days, 40 reflections, 40 acts of generosity. Join the #40acts challenge for #Lent and let's start a movement. www.40acts.org.uk
Posts: 3042 | From: 'twixt les Bois Noirs & Les Monts de la Madeleine | Registered: May 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm such a hypocrite. I tell God He can't do a thing. And that helps.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Of course, when we don't pray, remarkable things also happen. For example, people recover from cancer spontaneously. I don't know if anyone has ever done a statistical study of such things.
Prove it. All I'm asking from people who believe that prayer is some kind of external power, like The Force, is that you be honest.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Of course, when we don't pray, remarkable things also happen. For example, people recover from cancer spontaneously. I don't know if anyone has ever done a statistical study of such things.
Prove it. All I'm asking from people who believe that prayer is some kind of external power, like The Force, is that you be honest.
K.
@Komensky
Belief can be independent of proof. I think you are confusing belief with knowledge.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Of course, when we don't pray, remarkable things also happen. For example, people recover from cancer spontaneously. I don't know if anyone has ever done a statistical study of such things.
Prove it. All I'm asking from people who believe that prayer is some kind of external power, like The Force, is that you be honest.
K.
Eh? Prove what? That people recover without prayer?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Sorry, quez, I misread your post. My apologies!
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Of course, when we don't pray, remarkable things also happen. For example, people recover from cancer spontaneously. I don't know if anyone has ever done a statistical study of such things.
Prove it. All I'm asking from people who believe that prayer is some kind of external power, like The Force, is that you be honest.
K.
Misreading q. aside K., nobody here actually, practically, quantifiably, really believes that. Or in anything supernatural in their experience. Even though I've got my dog that did and then didn't bark in the night.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
On the subject of cancer apparently curing itself, I have never seen or heard of such a genuine case. It usually turns out that there wasn't cancer after all, or that various other circumstances and conditions were present. It is a rare case indeed whichends up with a don't know at the end of it.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dormouse:
[Regarding] intercessory prayers at church - really, what use is the vague "we pray for those in war torn ares/ the homeless/ the whatever" unless it is a recognition that these people are in trouble and maybe we are the answer to prayer?
Are you suggesting that we shouldn't pray for someone unless we can - and do - provide them with practical, physical help? I wondered about this myself in an earlier post.
Also, I've read books (by American evangelicals) which say that our petitionary prayers ought to be very specific. You come across a similar thing in self-help books; that if we want progress when we express our desires for the future they need to be very focused, rather than vague and formless.
OTOH, there's an unspoken sense in the moderate, mainstream churches that to be too specific is to invite failure. Congregational prayers especially can appear almost empty: 'We pray for....' You don't know what exactly you're praying for, what you want the outcome to be. IME our clergy never really explain why we do it this way.
What's even stranger is this habit of addressing God in the third person: 'We ask God to...' I'm afraid I really hate that. To me, it serves only to distance us from God. Why would I be sitting in church doing that? I find it truly painful.
[ 16. January 2018, 13:20: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Therefore our prayers should be declarations of OUR intent, what we're going to do about it, individually and collectively. Or they're utterly vacuous.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
On the subject of cancer apparently curing itself, I have never seen or heard of such a genuine case. It usually turns out that there wasn't cancer after all, or that various other circumstances and conditions were present. It is a rare case indeed whichends up with a don't know at the end of it.
I have. And I believe it was, in fact, divine healing-- a small foretaste of the Kingdom to come.
Bit it's impossible to prove that it wasn't a spontaneous remission or the result of a misdiagnosis.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Therefore our prayers should be declarations of OUR intent, what we're going to do about it, individually and collectively. Or they're utterly vacuous.
That seems sensible, but am I wrong in suggesting that a large number of Christians (Evos in particular?) wield prayer like The Force? Their are dozens and dozens of Christian self-help books on why God decided not to answer your prayer after all.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
I don't know whether your healing was due to prayer or not. Just be thankful that you are getting well.
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"...But I always want to know the things one shouldn’t do.”
“So as to do them?” asked her aunt.
“So as to choose,” said Isabel.
Henry James - The Portrait of A Lady
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I do. It wasn't.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Therefore our prayers should be declarations of OUR intent, what we're going to do about it, individually and collectively. Or they're utterly vacuous.
That seems sensible, but am I wrong in suggesting that a large number of Christians (Evos in particular?) wield prayer like The Force? Their are dozens and dozens of Christian self-help books on why God decided not to answer your prayer after all.
K.
Aye, how do we square God's deism in all of our lives with His theism in the man Jesus?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
On the subject of cancer apparently curing itself, I have never seen or heard of such a genuine case. It usually turns out that there wasn't cancer after all, or that various other circumstances and conditions were present. It is a rare case indeed whichends up with a don't know at the end of it.
I have. And I believe it was, in fact, divine healing-- a small foretaste of the Kingdom to come.
Bit it's impossible to prove that it wasn't a spontaneous remission or the result of a misdiagnosis.
Sorry (and for the 3rd in a row), but that's too many circles out, steps, an indefinite, vague, personal, subjective wish maybe three times removed. Nothing to build a theology upon, a practical, hopeful, evangelistic belief system on.
Nothing real at all.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Aye, how do we square God's deism in all ofour lives with His theism in the man Jesus?
Who is this “we” you’re talking about? I’m not trying to square God’s deism in anyone’s life. You’re the only one I’ve seen around here making this deist God/theist Jesus distinction—a distinction I, at least, don’t buy at all.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
We Nick; those of us confronted by the reality that God has ONLY intervened, for supernatural values of intervention, in Christ. Which is all of us.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
We Nick; those of us confronted by the reality that God has ONLY intervened, for supernatural values of intervention, in Christ. Which is all of us.
No, it is not. You do not speak for me, and I would appreciate it if you’d stop presuming otherwise. And I suspect I’m not alone in that feeling.
It’s just another form of “You agree with me or you’re delusional.”
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Speak for yourself Nick. Put up. If you or anyone else has miracles on tap, with no degrees of separation, no doubt about it, please show us. Everything else is second hand delusion.
[ 17. January 2018, 13:52: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
This is a not entirely serious interjection, but on Monday there were a number of fire engines in action on the High Street, near the church. I am afraid my immediate thought was "Please let it be [the shop that has become a late night bar]". It was. My second thought was to wonder how much that had been prayed for, as too many late night services (Maundy Thursday vigil, Midnight Mass) have been accompanied by amateur bands at full volume. It also has a reputation for underage drinking and young girls being encouraged in and not always having a good experience.
Sadly, the shop has survived and is continuing to trade, according to the notice on the boarded up door.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
May be God wants it street pastored?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
That seems sensible, but am I wrong in suggesting that a large number of Christians (Evos in particular?) wield prayer like The Force? Their are dozens and dozens of Christian self-help books on why God decided not to answer your prayer after all.
K.
"Hmmmmm, self-serving those books are. Much bull-shit in them there is, hmmmmmm?"
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Speak for yourself Nick. Put up. If you or anyone else has miracles on tap, with no degrees of separation, no doubt about it, please show us. Everything else is second hand delusion.
I am speaking for myself, Martin. That's precisely why I said you don't need to. You can count me out of your "we" and "us" when you state what you consider to be obvious.
At this stage, I don't know why I should provide you with examples. Others have done just that, and you have dismissed what they've said, as you do preemptively here, as "delusions."
Here's the deal Martin: I share many of your beliefs, but not all of them. Nevertheless, even when I am unconvinced by your arguments, I respect that your beliefs are sincerely held, and that you did not arrive at them carelessly or without thought or even struggle. I would ask that you show me and others the same respect.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's not a matter of belief Nick. Or respect. It's a matter of fact. It's a matter of fact that God does not suspend the laws of physics in any demonstrable, transferable way for anyone. Not since He walked the Earth. Not in healing, or prophecy, or tongues.
We can't do grown-up Christianity until we do that fact.
If you want to declare your belief that you have experienced a suspension of the laws of physics and that that has at least equality here with the fact that you have not, fine.
I respect that.
And I refute it.
Utterly.
Without compromise.
As there is no warrant whatsoever for doing otherwise.
I don't regard your insistence as disrespectful.
Please don't regard mine as such.
Even if it were, that's not the issue.
We're God's magic now. Nothing else is.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
Looking back over posts, perhaps I misread your statements about how we—meaning everyone—can face what you consider to be an obvious reality as suggesting that we all share that view of reality. If I did misread, apologies.
But the fact is that I don't share your view of reality, and I simply don’t buy into the assumptions present in your question about how "we" can square "God's deism in all of our lives with His theism in the man Jesus."
Meanwhile, I have to wonder again what the point of accepting your invitation to share experiences or thoughts might be when you’ve already "refuted" them in advance without even knowing what they are. God can’t possibly know the future, but you can refute experiences before you’ve heard them?
So there we are.
[ 17. January 2018, 18:28: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That, Sir, is more than decent of you. Your first para does all the work I should have done. So the apology is mine.
Please share your experience and you have my word I'll do whatever is necessary to make you feel respected by me.
Which ain't going to be easy! Not because I don't, you know I do, as on the Kerygmania Unto Us thread. But because I'm an ill bred thug. So I need to address your final paragraph.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
Thanks Martin. I think we’ve got the respect thing sorted out. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
A response will likely take a little longer and more thought than I can muster right now, or likely tonight. (It's 6:30 p.m. here as I write this.). I'll do my best tomorrow.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
My late mother used to say that she could feel it when people were praying for her. (She liked the idea of the Ship's prayer thread, upon which the sun never sets.)
Since my first cancer diagnosis, a little more than seven years ago, I can say the same. I really do believe it helps, and I don't think it's "magic."
Even if someone doesn't believe in God, perhaps there's some collective power in the prayers of people. (Or perhaps not, since not all prayers get the hoped-for answers.) I do think prayers are one reason of several that I'm still here to annoy people.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You're a game changer Rossweisse. I know prayer helps. It helps me as I've said above. People are helped knowing or believing that others are praying for them, that's a fact, axiomatic, a point I was trying to make with Komensky. And that is magical, spiritual. Of the human spirit, the synergy of it it feeding back in to the individual. I'm rationally convinced that God's spirit, essence mirrors, embraces, enfolds, cups, interpenetrates, resonates, yearns, feels immanently with ours. That knowledge helps. Me. That true story I make up helps me. Yours is a similarly uniquely personal, real spiritual experience.
My story of how prayer works – and it obviously does and is doing for you – and yours may be differentiated by my deist premiss that you will never share along with most here, but I want you to know that I totally endorse what works for you and that it is completely spiritually valid to me. We meet at the top regardless of differentiation.
For me you are the magic. You are miraculous. Your courage, your sense of humour, your shared vulnerability is awesome. For me God is so smart He doesn't touch creation once He's set the apparently arbitrary parameters in the quantum perturbation that becomes the universe in motion. You are in those parameters. Your courage. Your constantly vindicated take.
So please take whatever I say not as a challenge or a refutation DESPITE the language of challenge and refutation. There is no warrant in anything I say for you to not continue for all the years you have being a living testimony to the spirit, to the love, the hope of God.
Feel my prayer.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nick: 'Meanwhile, I have to wonder again what the point of accepting your invitation to share experiences or thoughts might be when you’ve already "refuted" them in advance without even knowing what they are. God can’t possibly know the future, but you can refute experiences before you’ve heard them?'
Me: In the light of Rossweisse's presence, and therefore the presence of many others of a like minded spirituality and sensitivity, of whom I should have been cognizant, I ask the open question, in my ignorance upon ignorance, of how we are to proceed, given that I am a thug loose in Purgatory?
It is a core, viscerally felt premiss, predicate, utter conviction with me that God does not intervene transpersonally in our states of mind, our feelings, our thinking let alone our bodies and circumstances. I do not relate to the categorically supernatural workings of God the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. I accept them completely as good as historic fact. More so. I will never see the like. No one has. Not since the Rock landed in the pond. I DO accept the orthodox characteristics of the Holy Spirit. The psychologically fruitfully miraculous (transpersonally intervening?!*) paraclete, helper, advocate, leader, teacher. *No, not in any violent, coercive, dramatic, Damascene way, but transformatively. I MUST be normatively orthodox. Which creates a tension to say the least. Orthodoxy has to be invoked, what the Bible says about God's response to us, God the Holy Spirit, has to be a given. But how that is realised in our experience, how that wind blows in and around us, is never with demonstrable breaking of the laws of physics (it wasn't even for Saul, no one else heard Jesus) – which glossolalia for one tiny example isn't, ever. Never. Not for us. Not for millennia. If EVER. The glossolalia that is. The miracles of Jesus are more, better than historic reality for me. And the wind does blow.
Even though there is no evidence in me of the psychologically fruitfully miraculous. I lack faith, hope and charity and all I see of others' isn't what I want and need. I see no incarnational examples*. I know how found wanting I am, here and in my own front room. As someone said in Hell, my sig clashes with my expression, in every way. Is that because I don't declare, submit to orthodoxy enough? I don't 'read my Bible enough'? Probably, in part. That I'm not 'religious', pious enough. Would that make my fears and resentments less? Possibly.
Would it be real? Charity is as charity does. And thinks and feels. Which affects the doing. That has been rawly exposed in me since I took over as primary carer for my 87 year old demented, immobilized mother for the past 18 months of rapid decline. Hers too! She goes in to care in 10 days.
Funny where these thoughts go. There's an Izzardesque loop going on here. The power of prayer impinges on the work of God the Holy Spirit. To say the least. This broken response here, on this thread, among you my peers, the body of Christ, is happening in a crucible of the Holy Spirit. A storm in a tea cup. I stand to be corrected by Him through you. And inadequate in the spirit of charity that I am, disqualified, I still have the... audacity, the invincible ignorance to declare Him by denying Him.
I've been reading a neo-orthodox A Theology of The Holy Spirit article whilst composing this and just read The prayers of the people 2018 in All Saints. Heartbreaking.
I want to pray more based on orthodoxy. But I'm confronted by reality. And this response is NOTHING like I intended, which was going to be utterly uncompromising, but for some reason I can't do that, though it's there.
*Which isn't true. My boss in the church 'outreach' is excellent. I wish I could be her. But I'd have to be a charismatic evangelical. We have a Saturday session for the volunteers in a couple of weeks: 'This is not optional if you are alive that day and in any way believe in a God who answers prayers!', as I believe by the broadest possible definition, I can go.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Uh oh.
Minor... maybe major epiphany time.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
My mother had an account of having been aware of being prayed for. She, and a number of other older ladies of the church were in London as witnesses in a family court session to determine the future of the child of an ended marriage. On the other side there was obvious evil concerned, and a history of skillful manipulation. The ladies were afraid. But, at home, there was a prayer group in action throughout the time of the trial, and they were all aware of being surrounded with God's love and support as they faced the other side's legal representatives. The right conclusion resulted.
[ 20. January 2018, 13:43: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That's a rational awareness still isn't it?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
...So please take whatever I say not as a challenge or a refutation DESPITE the language of challenge and refutation. There is no warrant in anything I say for you to not continue for all the years you have being a living testimony to the spirit, to the love, the hope of God.
Feel my prayer.
I’m speechless. (That doesn’t happen often.) Thank you, Martin.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
There was a discussion on BBC R4's Sunday Programme this morning following a report or research on prayer by Tearfund published on 14 January.
quote:
Research by Tearfund says half of adults in the UK pray. But if you are not praying to God can it really be called a prayer? Graham Nicholls, Director of Affinity and Mark Vernon a psychotherapist debate the meaning of prayer.
The psychotherapist was saying that prayer is a human need, no divine authority required.
If anyone wants to listen on catch up, this clip is at towards the end of the programme.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The psychotherapist was saying that prayer is a human need, no divine authority required.
That hits the heart of it I think.
There does seem to be a place of calling residing in every human heart. Giving that space, or part of us, to a perceived external Force appears to be what separates the believer from the non-believer.
I don’t consider it to be a matter of one being right and the other being wrong, even though it does make for great debate.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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