homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Are Episcopalians stupid or gutless? (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Are Episcopalians stupid or gutless?
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Regarding performers not wanting to perform for the inauguration. Performers are a business and, for some, their business will be affected by the perception of support for Trump.

Yes. And I guess Jennifer Holliday will prevent some loss of income by giving into the stupid. You would think that her fans would be aware of her support for Hillary Clinton, but apparently not.
I think people will see someone perform for Trump and interpret that as support for Trump regardless of anything else. Those idiots that clung to Sanders, voted for third party candidates even though they hated Trump, etc. should have illustrated this for you. Not to mention the idiots who voted for orange boy even though it will likely hurt them.
Already the Republican legislators are trying to end Affordable care, strip Medicare and destroy helathcare for women.
In North Dakota, there is even a bill to allow a person to "accidentally" run over protesters.* A law that is in reaction to the pipeline protests in that area.

*OK, technically it shifts the burden of proof onto the victim of the incident, but effectively it is what I said.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 15785 | From: out of the corner of your eye | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
What I want to know is, is there anything that tips it from "yuck, he's in bed with the Russians and that's revolting" to "this is an illegal situation"? Is there anything that turns "Russians tried to influence American voters" into "there was an illegal interference with the election"?

I said the legitimacy of his presidency is in question. I think it depends on two things -- whether his being "in bed with the Russians" goes so far as to mean they have kompromat on him that could make him act against US interests and whether or not the director of the FBI violated the Hatch Act. And we don't know either of those things, but they're both possible.
Posts: 24196 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yeah, and see, this is where it gets hazy for me. Because it's not illegal to be blackmailed. But being blackmailed is not an excuse for doing something illegal.

And then there's the difference between illegal, and politically toxic and if people knew this stuff some of them wouldn't vote for you.

I think there are a LOT of things that are politically toxic that make staying in office practically untenable, that don't reach the level of making holding an office illegitimate. That's part of my concern here. It's the difference between "we don't want him in office" and "he can't be in office".

The FBI thing is a whole mess that had "damned if you do, damned if you don't" aspects to it. But suppose for the sake of argument the FBI Director or someone in the FBI did break the law. Does that make a Trump victory illegitimate? I'm not entirely certain about that. If someone broke the law seeking to sway an election, when do we attribute that to the candidate who benefited?

Of course, if something emerges to directly link Trump to funny goings-on, all hell would, ahem, legitimately break loose.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 17916 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If someone broke the law seeking to sway an election, when do we attribute that to the candidate who benefited?

We don't have to attribute it to the candidate for the election to be illegitimate.

quote:
Of course, if something emerges to directly link Trump to funny goings-on, all hell would, ahem, legitimately break loose.
This is not outside the realm of the possible. We don't know the nature or the extent of Trump's connections to people in Russia with an interest in having a pliant friend in the White House. It might just all kind of look bad. Or maybe he sold us out before he was ever in office in order to gain that office. As I said, it's a question.

Rep. John Lewis thinks Trump's election is illegitimate, and he is not attending the inauguration. A short list of other members of Congress have also said they won't attend, and there are still 5 days left for other people to say the same. I don't pretend for a moment to think this isn't as much a political stance as it is a moral one, but I don't have a problem with it.

Posts: 24196 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
it might not be such a great idea to join in the general undermining of democracy?

Democracy has been generally undermined already, so any such suggestion is too late.

To take the US example. What was the great attraction of Trump to the Republicans? It wasn't his personality, it was the size of his wallet. And, the attraction of Clinton to the Democrats? She has some experience of office, but mainly she has friends with lots of money. Even Sanders, with his army of supporters without much money, but together had lots of money. When election campaigns cost vast sums of money then choices about who stands follows the money - and we get politicians bought by those who pay for their campaigns, in perception if not always in reality. Has that not already undermined democracy? And, has not that horse been roaming wild for so long that it's pretty much pointless to try and talk of closing the stable door?

And, I'm not going to pretend the UK is any better. Especially when politicians seek (and, largely fail) to patch up divisions within their party by putting an ill-conceived and ill-considered referendum to the electorate.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31689 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh, do we have politicians in the UK? I thought we mostly had a collection of banal, self-seeking, treacly-mouthed, xenophobic non-entities, who had somehow persuaded Them Asses that they were a Good Thing...

Wait a mo...that's the Government .... [Ultra confused]

There are, of course, some Good Politicians, but they can be counted on the fingers of one finger.

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 7817 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

 - Posted      Profile for ThunderBunk   Email ThunderBunk   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Strangely enough this feels almost like a non-question to me, because as the established church the C of E has to do it all the time. We cross our fingers, hold our nose and allow our services and ceremonies to be used by secular power, hoping (in my case anyway) that something rubs off the other way, and that the offering to God and the hospitality extended have effects beyond anything immediately obvious.

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2008 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Established being the key word there. America doesn't have one, separation of church and state and everything.
By being part of the government, the CofE isn't making a political statement by participating in government ceremony.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 15785 | From: out of the corner of your eye | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
IMO, there should be no religious service attached to any government event in the US.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 15785 | From: out of the corner of your eye | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Established being the key word there. America doesn't have one, separation of church and state and everything.
By being part of the government, the CofE isn't making a political statement by participating in government ceremony.

The CofE isn't part of the government. Even that part which is involved in the legislature, the Lord Spiritual, sit as cross-benchers.

[ 15. January 2017, 14:50: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]

Posts: 2692 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

 - Posted      Profile for ThunderBunk   Email ThunderBunk   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The C of E is part of the constitutional structure, by virtue of its establishment, but is not part of the government. This why the lords spiritual are cross-benchers: they can't be on either the government side of the house of lords or the opposition side, meaning that they are not party to the structure of government, nor beholden to the government for their presence.

In the same way (hopefully) offering space and structure is not the same as legitimating any particular occasion; indeed, with a lot of luck/grace, the care with which structure and occasion are created exposes the poverty of those invited to take part.

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2008 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Potatos patahtos. The CofE has an official place. By virtue of that, their actions are not inherently seen as political in the same way the independent churches of America would be.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 15785 | From: out of the corner of your eye | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
The C of E is part of the constitutional structure, by virtue of its establishment, but is not part of the government. This why the lords spiritual are cross-benchers: they can't be on either the government side of the house of lords or the opposition side, meaning that they are not party to the structure of government, nor beholden to the government for their presence.

The bishops may not be part of HM Government, but most assuredly are part of the government of the UK as a whole, despite their being bishops of a church established in only one part of the realm.

And equally assuredly they are beholden to the Govt for their presence. I know the formalities of their "election" to office, but in truth is that it is the Govt that appoints them ( a bit better now than in the days when it was purely the PM of the day who gave the advice to HM.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6274 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican_Brat   Email Anglican_Brat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Strangely enough this feels almost like a non-question to me, because as the established church the C of E has to do it all the time. We cross our fingers, hold our nose and allow our services and ceremonies to be used by secular power, hoping (in my case anyway) that something rubs off the other way, and that the offering to God and the hospitality extended have effects beyond anything immediately obvious.

I think the difference is that the UK is a monarchy and the US is a republic. To my understanding, the ceremonial that the CofE conducts has to do with civic and royal occasions, not partisan occasions. The Archbishop of Canterbury crowns the officially nonpartisan British Crown, not the Prime Minister.

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

Posts: 4177 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IMO, there should be no religious service attached to any government event in the US.

And yet, despite your opinion, there's a national cathedral.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 17916 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, I've never understood that.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17130 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Strangely enough this feels almost like a non-question to me, because as the established church the C of E has to do it all the time. We cross our fingers, hold our nose and allow our services and ceremonies to be used by secular power, hoping (in my case anyway) that something rubs off the other way, and that the offering to God and the hospitality extended have effects beyond anything immediately obvious.

I think the difference is that the UK is a monarchy and the US is a republic. To my understanding, the ceremonial that the CofE conducts has to do with civic and royal occasions, not partisan occasions. The Archbishop of Canterbury crowns the officially nonpartisan British Crown, not the Prime Minister.
Nope, the difference is the separation of Church and State. You can thank the Lutherans for that and their Two Kingdom doctrine. If you want you can take the far more prickly relationship between the state and the Church of Scotland. You can see through that the way that it influenced Puritan thought.

No Puritanism is not strict Calvinism it draws on all the Magisterial Reformation traditions. Yes, that includes Lutheranism. What differs it from Separatism is the stronger emphasis of Anabaptism and other Radical Reformation groups.

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Walking 18 miles to help Refugees get an education.

Posts: 20431 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
american piskie
Shipmate
# 593

 - Posted      Profile for american piskie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Established being the key word there. America doesn't have one, separation of church and state and everything.
By being part of the government, the CofE isn't making a political statement by participating in government ceremony.

The CofE isn't part of the government. Even that part which is involved in the legislature, the Lord Spiritual, sit as cross-benchers.
Wikipedia reminds us that they do not sit on the cross benches, but on the Government side, nearest the throne. They don't take the party whip, though.
Posts: 342 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alt Wally

Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245

 - Posted      Profile for Alt Wally     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If they don't participate, the idea that it's a National Cathedral I think certainly goes out the window. That may be happening or have happened anyway, and it may now very well be the National Cathedral of a Certain Political viewpoint.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

 - Posted      Profile for Amanda B. Reckondwythe     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
If they don't participate, the idea that it's a National Cathedral I think certainly goes out the window. That may be happening or have happened anyway, and it may now very well be the National Cathedral of a Certain Political viewpoint.

I think it was always the National Cathedral of White Protestants, at least in the mind of many.

If they truly wanted to be a light unto the gentiles, they would refuse to have anything to do with the shameful spectacle that will take place this Friday.

--------------------
"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

Posts: 9986 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Alt Wally

Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245

 - Posted      Profile for Alt Wally     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I think it was always the National Cathedral of White Protestants, at least in the mind of many.

Then its audience and sponsorship will be that much more narrowed as it becomes imbued with faction.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IMO, there should be no religious service attached to any government event in the US.

And yet, despite your opinion, there's a national cathedral.
Whilst I appreciate your appraisal of my influence, it does not exist despite my opinion. I do not think I would have been consulted even if I had been born before 1893.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Yes, I've never understood that.

ISTM, America has done poorly managing its separation of church and state.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 15785 | From: out of the corner of your eye | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thank you. I think. [Paranoid]

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19649 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753

 - Posted      Profile for jbohn   Author's homepage   Email jbohn   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IMO, there should be no religious service attached to any government event in the US.

And yet, despite your opinion, there's a national cathedral.
Washington National Cathedral (the Cathedral Church of Saint Peter and Saint Paul in the City and Diocese of Washington, for the pedants) has always been a bit of an anomaly. It was, and is, privately funded - government funds were not used for construction or maintenance. It is in theory simply the Episcopal cathedral for the area. Yet it has also been designated as the "National House of Prayer" by Congress (I have a sneaking suspicion this would be ruled unconstitutional, should it ever come before the courts - although no one's ever tried it, to my knowledge). Pierre L'Enfant's original plan for the city of Washington had space left aside for a great church for national purposes (if memory serves, his plan would have put it just north of the National Mall, in what is now Chinatown).

But hey - what other place can say their cathedral has a grotesque of Darth Vader? [Biased]

--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

Posts: 957 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
If they don't participate, the idea that it's a National Cathedral I think certainly goes out the window. That may be happening or have happened anyway, and it may now very well be the National Cathedral of a Certain Political viewpoint.

I think it was always the National Cathedral of White Protestants, at least in the mind of many.

If they truly wanted to be a light unto the gentiles, they would refuse to have anything to do with the shameful spectacle that will take place this Friday.

ISTM that if they refused to go, they'd be declaring themselves not to be the 'National Church' of the Americans who voted for Trump.

The only way around this, if they really despise Trump and all his works to that extent, is publicly to repudiate the 'National Church' tag. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Posts: 6113 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

 - Posted      Profile for Jane R   Email Jane R   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
jbohn:
quote:
But hey - what other place can say their cathedral has a grotesque of Darth Vader?
Our cathedrals are already full of older pagan images. [Devil]
Posts: 3593 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

 - Posted      Profile for Rossweisse     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have been, in my modest way, a supporter of the National Cathedral. But the next time I get a fundraising email from the Dean, I plan to politely request removal from the mailing list.

--------------------
I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 14421 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601

 - Posted      Profile for Steve Langton   Email Steve Langton   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
by lilBuddha;
quote:
ISTM, America has done poorly managing its separation of church and state.
I agree - and US Anabaptists would think even more so, regarding much of what goes on there as 'Neo-Constantinian' rather than the kind of separation Anabaptists want.

As I see it there has always been an ambiguity between those who really want 'no establishment of religion' at all and those who think more in terms of the US being a broadly 'Christian' country but without a specific national 'established' church.

Whichever side of that ambiguity you come down on, you'll find people on the other side shouting at you that the 'Founding Fathers' intended their version instead.

Given the number of atheists and 'deists' around at the time and among or associated with the leaders, I'm inclined to the view that they intended the fuller separation with freedom for 'all faiths or none'; but the reality was at the same time that most US immigrants had come from countries in which they belonged to an established church or to a dissenting group that - unlike Anabaptists - would have liked to be established. They realised that they couldn't get their former national church, or their dissenting group as the case might be, appointed as the US establishment so settled for thinking in terms of 'generally Christian'.

We live today with this ambiguity....

Posts: 2095 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472

 - Posted      Profile for Fr Weber   Email Fr Weber   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
]Nope, the difference is the separation of Church and State. You can thank the Lutherans for that and their Two Kingdom doctrine. If you want you can take the far more prickly relationship between the state and the Church of Scotland. You can see through that the way that it influenced Puritan thought.

I'm not sure about that, Jengie. There are Lutheran state churches, after all, so although Two Kingdoms may have established a kind of theoretical framework within which disestablishment could be conceived, it certainly doesn't require it.

In America, at least, the influence of Deism and freethinking (not to mention Anabaptism) was a much stronger influence on the separation of Church and State.

--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

 - Posted      Profile for Laura   Email Laura   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm a DC area person and have been heavily involved in making trouble on this. I think it's absolutely appalling that the choir has to sing for the inauguration (and I'll talk about the assertion that it's not mandatory in a moment). the way I see it is this: the PB and +Budde have sold this as "praying for the president" answering the question they were not asked ("is it okay to pray for a president?") and answering THAT question, the answer to which is "duh, of course." The question is two-part: should the Cathedral hold the planned interfaith prayer service for the inauguration and should the choir be part of the entertainment for the inauguration? To which we now have to add a third question, should the Cathedral Dean and bishop have agreed to That Man's request that there be no preaching?

People say, what would Jesus do? And say, of course he would take every opportunity to preach the gospel. But that still doesn't give much guidance. In my view, the inaugural prayer service represents an opening the doors of Love to those invited, including the president, and sharing prayers for us, for That Man, and for the country and the world. I would say, yes, hold the service. I would have said "are you kidding me?" to the demand for no sermon. I'm well aware that the EC does not always have sermons at their services, but whether to do so or not cannot be the decision of a president in a country with no established church. The EC is not a state church, and has no business getting in line with demands of the State.

The other question is, should one of the country's premier episcopal church choirs be part of the pre-game entertainment at the inauguration? And to that, I say, no way. The question here with "what would Jesus do" is to me, "would Jesus agree to be part of the entertainment at a triumph of Caesar, along with the paid admirers, games, circuses, etc etc." and that is very difficult for me to imagine.

There is no question that many see the choir's being part of inaugural entertainment (a secular occasion) as endorsement of a truly terrible human being, who has publicly espoused views inimical to those professed by our church. When part of the argument in support is, well, he won, so we have to support him, that is a secular argument. The church in its history has gotten into the worst trouble supporting unworthy rulers, and has been at their best when speaking truth to power. Let the EC not have to make a profession of guilt, as the German churches had to do after the war, as many US church bodies have had to do in connection with slavery and treatment of First Nations groups and many other things.

--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

Posts: 16882 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753

 - Posted      Profile for jbohn   Author's homepage   Email jbohn   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
jbohn:
quote:
But hey - what other place can say their cathedral has a grotesque of Darth Vader?
Our cathedrals are already full of older pagan images. [Devil]
[Big Grin]

--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

Posts: 957 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

 - Posted      Profile for Rossweisse     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ahh-men, Laura.

--------------------
I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 14421 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

 - Posted      Profile for M.   Email M.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Forgive my ignorance but is the choir formed of volunteers or are they employed?

The glory of being a volunteer of course is that you can always say 'sod this' and walk off to anything you don't want to do.

The limiting factor is that of letting your mates down.

M.

Posts: 2203 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953

 - Posted      Profile for The5thMary   Email The5thMary   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
They should all wear pussy hats.

OMG, Boogie! You are awesome!
[Killing me]

--------------------
God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.

Posts: 3440 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
]Nope, the difference is the separation of Church and State. You can thank the Lutherans for that and their Two Kingdom doctrine. If you want you can take the far more prickly relationship between the state and the Church of Scotland. You can see through that the way that it influenced Puritan thought.

I'm not sure about that, Jengie. There are Lutheran state churches, after all, so although Two Kingdoms may have established a kind of theoretical framework within which disestablishment could be conceived, it certainly doesn't require it.

In America, at least, the influence of Deism and freethinking (not to mention Anabaptism) was a much stronger influence on the separation of Church and State.

There are multiple readings of it. However, it very clearly stated by Andrew Melvill to James VI (Scotland).
quote:
"Sirrah, ye are God's silly vassal; there are two kings and two kingdoms in Scotland: there is king James, the head of the commonwealth; and there is Christ Jesus, the king of the Church, whose subject James the Sixth is, and of whose kingdom he is not a king, not a lord, not a head, but a member."
Important this is high Presbyterianism citing Two Kingdoms and it also clearly seen as implying a separation of church and state.

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Walking 18 miles to help Refugees get an education.

Posts: 20431 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It is my understanding that they'll be singing 'God Bless America' by Mr Irving Berlin.

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7642 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Not a hymn, in other words, but a 'national song'. Perhaps 'Give 'Em The Old Razzle-Dazzle' is unsuited to choral arrangement.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4750 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

 - Posted      Profile for Amanda B. Reckondwythe     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Forgive my ignorance but is the choir formed of volunteers or are they employed?

When I lived in a suburb of DC, I tried joining but was told, quite tersely: "We are a paid professional choir and we have no openings for persons of your voice."

--------------------
"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

Posts: 9986 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

 - Posted      Profile for Amanda B. Reckondwythe     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Not a hymn, in other words, but a 'national song'. Perhaps 'Give 'Em The Old Razzle-Dazzle' is unsuited to choral arrangement.

It's been arranged for chorus. My group sang it two seasons ago. I love the line:

"What if your hinges all are rusting?
What if in fact you're just disgusting?"

[ 18. January 2017, 14:38: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

--------------------
"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

Posts: 9986 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It sounds ideal. There's a lot of fine musical theater numbers that would suit.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4750 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

 - Posted      Profile for M.   Email M.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thank you, Amanda B.

M.

Posts: 2203 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

 - Posted      Profile for Laura   Email Laura   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Forgive my ignorance but is the choir formed of volunteers or are they employed?

When I lived in a suburb of DC, I tried joining but was told, quite tersely: "We are a paid professional choir and we have no openings for persons of your voice."
It is professional to a very, very high level. My husband sang in it when he first came to the area, and I have a number of friends who have, over the years. One does not volunteer, oh my goodness, no.

--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

Posts: 16882 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

 - Posted      Profile for Laura   Email Laura   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
It is my understanding that they'll be singing 'God Bless America' by Mr Irving Berlin.

One would have thought Evancho could have managed this. One certainly does not need the National Cathedral Choir to sing one of the most oversung songs in the history of the Union. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

Posts: 16882 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

 - Posted      Profile for Mamacita   Email Mamacita   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It wouldn't be my choice for imparting that sense of "beauty and transcendence" that the Dean and the Bishop say is the gift they wish to offer the nation. But hey, it's got "God" in it three times! So, it must be a hymn, right?!
Posts: 20648 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Dunno, I think God blessing America is a sentiment we can all get behind. I think you're going to be needing a lot of that blessing to live through the rule by the orange-faced-Russian-lapdog.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 8806 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

 - Posted      Profile for Pigwidgeon   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
So who's going to crash the Saturday Prayer Service to MW it?

--------------------
Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

Posts: 9018 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

 - Posted      Profile for Amanda B. Reckondwythe     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Someone, I hope. [Biased]

I had a response to my e-mail to the dean of Washington Cathedral. It was from the director of communications, who said, in part: "As I’m sure you can imagine, we’ve been deluged with letters."

However, he went on to say that their decision to participate remains in place.

--------------------
"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

Posts: 9986 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
NPR article on the National Cathedral service. (KQED)

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17130 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gill H

Shipmate
# 68

 - Posted      Profile for Gill H     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It sounds ideal. There's a lot of fine musical theater numbers that would suit.

How about "For Now" from Avenue Q?

--------------------
Searching for a new sig...

Posts: 9120 | From: London | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ascension-ite
Shipmate
# 1985

 - Posted      Profile for Ascension-ite   Email Ascension-ite   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Being close to DC, I've been watching this as well, and can't help feeling like we've been used. I too was more upset at the choir singing at the secular Inauguration, as the service itself is a longstanding tradition. Apparently sermons aren't always part of the service, and if they are, the President usually chooses the preacher. We were probably lucky that did not happen.

I was quite upset that the service the morning of the Inauguration, at St. John's, had a rather extreme Southern Baptist preacher, we rolled over easily on that as well.

It's like we are in the rent-a-church business. Watching the service this morning made that impression manifest, we had little impact on any of it. There was even a musical number that got a standing ovation, it was a strange service.

I can't imagine the Catholic Shrine would have put up with any such thing. We should have stated that we'd plan and staff the service, or they could find another locale, same with the St. John's service.

The whole thing has made me most uncomfortable.

Posts: 318 | From: Old Dominion | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools