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Source: (consider it) Thread: When Dick Cheney thinks you've gone too far...
cliffdweller
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# 13338

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We were prepared to fight a ban on immigration. We were not prepared to see families split apart as people with valid green cards, student visas, etc are stranded at the airport. We were not prepared to see refugees who had already not only survived the horrors of war but gone thru the entire rigorous 2 year vetting process, got their golden ticket to the US, arrive at the airport children in tow... and now turned away.

He is trying to crush our spirits. I don't even. Can't even.

Help.

Pray.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Pigwidgeon

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Hell has frozen over (climate change???) -- I actually agree with Dick Cheney on something.

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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[Votive]

As bad as Cheney was when he was VP and shadow president, he's done and said some good things since. He's steadfastly supported his lesbian daughter. He's spoken out in favor of SS marriage. (I think his daughter got married.) He spoke out against that county clerk that wouldn't issue SSM licenses.

I heard one of his daughters is entering Congress. I'm guessing the straight one, who's conservative and not for SSM.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mousethief

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I'm guessing Cheney has a book coming out and wants to make sure his name is still somewhat top-of-mind.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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I am hearing of a grad student who cannot return to complete studies. With a request to work with an external here.

Cheney may be redeeming himself. But he still is a war criminal isn't he?

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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The ACLU has gotten a temporary injunction. First battle in the courts goes against the short-fingered vulgarian.
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Golden Key
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np--

I'm not saying that Cheney is a reformed character, or excusing what he did in office.

Back then, I loathed him more than I was comfortable with. So I wanted and needed some balance. When I found out about his support for his lesbian daughter (while he was still in office, IIRC), I seized on that as the one good thing I knew about him. It helped me a lot.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Golden Key
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Good to hear about the ACLU, Ruth.

There's also a petition at Impeach Donald Trump Now. I'm not familiar with the groups behind it: Free Speech For People, and RootsAction. (More info in "Who We Are", under the "The Case For Impeachment" section.) And there doesn't seem to be much "there" there, yet. I want to do a little research into them. I'm for impeaching him. But anyone can start a petition site, and I want to know more about whose petition I sign. FWIW.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Eutychus
From the edge
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
He is trying to crush our spirits. I don't even.

Nonsense. Extreme vetting is biblical.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The ACLU has gotten a temporary injunction. First battle in the courts goes against the short-fingered vulgarian.

But, if I read The New York Times report correctly, it's not as broad-reaching as might be hoped for:
quote:
The judge’s ruling blocked part of the president’s actions, preventing the government from deporting some arrivals who found themselves ensnared by the presidential order. But it stopped short of letting them into the country or issuing a broader ruling on the constitutionality of Mr. Trump’s actions.


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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Golden Key
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But this injunction is a start.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
. Extreme vetting is biblical.

This guy may well be taking instruction from the Bible which is probably why a good proportion of the world's population is currently shitting itself.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
He is trying to crush our spirits. I don't even.

Nonsense. Extreme vetting is biblical.
To my mind, an automatic No is not "vetting".

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
He is trying to crush our spirits. I don't even.

Nonsense. Extreme vetting is biblical.
These people are delusional. America is a great and shining city on a hill? ISIS arose from America's botched foreign leadership policy of the last 8 years? America First? These people were fascists waiting for a leader. Now they have one.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Eutychus
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Above all, they are living in the wrong Testament.

This madness is made possible by identifying the USA and its legal residents as the Promised Land and the People of God.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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fletcher christian

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I hope to God Britain looks at all of this and learns.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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mousethief

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Cheney hell. Now Krauthammer is speaking out against Trump's foreign policy. Yes, that Krauthammer. Holy wow.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Penny S
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I hope to God she doesn't.

I read in a time expired Guardian today that Trump used to keep a book of the speeches of a mid-last-century demagogue by his bed. I'm not sure if his reputation for not reading applies here, and I don't want to raise Godwin.

I continue to read Sinclair Lewis's "It Can't Happen Here" which feels as if it had just been written from an obvious model. It contains a group called "The League of Forgotten Men", who are people signed up by a radio preacher who claims to represent them (but their only thoughts come from him). I think I spotted a reference to the forgotten in a speech.

[ 29. January 2017, 13:41: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I hope to God Britain looks at all of this and learns.

Sadly, our un-elected shitshow of a leader seems to looking and learning that this seems like a good idea.

She has very firmly signed up to Trumpism. I can only hope that she pays a very hight price for this.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Above all, they are living in the wrong Testament.

This madness is made possible by identifying the USA and its legal residents as the Promised Land and the People of God.

This guy, on the other hand, seems to have the right idea.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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mr cheesy
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There is a certain irony about saying that the bible says nothing about US immigration policy whilst at the same time trying to influence the political direction by pointing to the bible as an authority on other issues.

But as I've been trying to think aloud in a Purg thread, this discontinuity seems to be a feature of much of the Evangelicalism we see "in the wild", and I worry that this opens the door to fascism.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I hope to God Britain looks at all of this and learns.

Sadly, our un-elected shitshow of a leader seems to looking and learning that this seems like a good idea.

She has very firmly signed up to Trumpism. I can only hope that she pays a very hight price for this.

Given that the news here is reporting that your "un-elected shitshow of a leader" ordered two senior ministers to call their American counterparts to protest, I call bullshit on your views.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Given that the news here is reporting that your "un-elected shitshow of a leader" ordered two senior ministers to call their American counterparts to protest, I call bullshit on your views.

I strongly suspect May is only interested in British passport holders

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Beenster
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Given that the news here is reporting that your "un-elected shitshow of a leader" ordered two senior ministers to call their American counterparts to protest, I call bullshit on your views.

I strongly suspect May is only interested in British passport holders
I think she's more interested in herself.
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Stetson
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quote:
When Dick Cheney thinks you've gone too far...
Cheney criticizing Trump on middle-east refugees is like a tobacco company CEO criticizing a doctor for using quack methods to cure lung cancer. There may be many people who are entitied to criticize the quack. The man who caused the cancer in the first place is not one of them.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Given that the news here is reporting that your "un-elected shitshow of a leader" ordered two senior ministers to call their American counterparts to protest, I call bullshit on your views.

I strongly suspect May is only interested in British passport holders
Oh I see. Whereas Google is standing up for all humanity?

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Given that the news here is reporting that your "un-elected shitshow of a leader" ordered two senior ministers to call their American counterparts to protest, I call bullshit on your views.

I strongly suspect May is only interested in British passport holders
The news this evening is that the phone calls were to arrange exemption from the ban for UK passport holders. Theresa the Appeaser thinks her problem has gone away.

She's wrong.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Given that the news here is reporting that your "un-elected shitshow of a leader" ordered two senior ministers to call their American counterparts to protest, I call bullshit on your views.

I strongly suspect May is only interested in British passport holders
The news this evening is that the phone calls were to arrange exemption from the ban for UK passport holders. Theresa the Appeaser thinks her problem has gone away.

She's wrong.

No actually, she's right . UK passport holders are exactly her problem.

You all seem to believe that a foreign leader should just wade right into the middle of domestic US decisions and seek to undo them in their entirety. It's a deeply unrealistic view of how the world actually works.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Adeodatus
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Her problem wasn't Mo Farah, Nadhim Zahawi and a handful of pissed-off Brits who couldn't go to America. Her problem is the - probably - millions of Brits who think Trump and his racist ban are morally abhorrent, and who want he to come good on her promise that she wouldn't flinch from criticising Trump. And it's not that Britain is a shining beacon of anti-racism. It's not. But one thing we really hate is a Prime Minister who's an appeaser and a coward.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Her problem wasn't Mo Farah, Nadhim Zahawi and a handful of pissed-off Brits who couldn't go to America. Her problem is the - probably - millions of Brits who think Trump and his racist ban are morally abhorrent, and who want he to come good on her promise that she wouldn't flinch from criticising Trump. And it's not that Britain is a shining beacon of anti-racism. It's not. But one thing we really hate is a Prime Minister who's an appeaser and a coward.

But she's bought Peace In yOur Time.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Adeodatus
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Quite so, mousthief. It's no coincidence that one of the most popular images of her at the moment is her head photoshopped onto Neville Chamberlain's body.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Doc Tor
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The petition to uninvite Trump for his State visit will probably reach 1m by morning.

I'm looking forward to having that debated in parliament.

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Improbable Botany

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Her problem wasn't Mo Farah, Nadhim Zahawi and a handful of pissed-off Brits who couldn't go to America. Her problem is the - probably - millions of Brits who think Trump and his racist ban are morally abhorrent, and who want he to come good on her promise that she wouldn't flinch from criticising Trump. And it's not that Britain is a shining beacon of anti-racism. It's not. But one thing we really hate is a Prime Minister who's an appeaser and a coward.

You don't merely want her not to be an appeaser and a coward. Be honest. You want her to be the growling leader of the US Opposition.

[ 30. January 2017, 00:08: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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cliffdweller
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Join my son and 4000 others protesting the ban at LAX today. A very positive spirit, good interactions with police AND the travelers inconvenienced by the large protest. Heard no complaints (altho the press says there were counter-protestors I didn't see them) but lots of travelers stopping to explain to their kids what was happening and express their support.

Of course this is L.A. May not have gone as well in the red states.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Quite so, mousthief. It's no coincidence that one of the most popular images of her at the moment is her head photoshopped onto Neville Chamberlain's body.

I can't help thinking of the contrast with Love Actually where the UK prime minister stands up to the US President after finding the latter groping his secretary.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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orfeo

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# 13878

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The chief contrast being that a scripted romantic fantasy can just go for whatever feels good.

Meanwhile, here in Australia the PM is being criticised for not mounting the same criticism of Trump's actions as his U.K. Counterpart has done, and for not clarifying what happens to dual nationals in the way his UK counterpart has done.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I think this means the DHS has changed its mind about green card holders, doesn't it?

If so, that will take some of the sting out of the outrage.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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I heard on the radio, Sunday, that DHS had always disagreed with the White House on that point, and wasn't happy with the version of the executive order that came out. Looks like they decided to override that bit of the order. Yay!

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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It's not much of a victory if the ban still applies to non-refugees with valid visas.

You have to wonder if the overreach was deliberate in order to get people to accept what was previously unpalatable.

I should think a lot of Americans with little contact with foreigners won't grasp the difference between a visa and a green card anyway, and that by this morning US time Trump's team will be deriding the protestors for having made a fuss over nothing.

Trump supporters are already out in force on the interwebs saying Trump did nothing more than Obama had already done in 2011 temporarily blocking refugees. Expect all technical objections to this to be drowned out.

(Meanwhile, it seems Steve Bannon has replaced the Chiefs of Staff on the NSC's Principals Committee. Why is nobody demonstrating about that?).

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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It is going to be an interesting day. Despite various statements from above and court decisions, there were still reports last night of people being held with visas and/or permission to remain in the USA - and some reports of people being put back on planes in violation of the court decisions.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Her problem wasn't Mo Farah, Nadhim Zahawi and a handful of pissed-off Brits who couldn't go to America. Her problem is the - probably - millions of Brits who think Trump and his racist ban are morally abhorrent, and who want he to come good on her promise that she wouldn't flinch from criticising Trump. And it's not that Britain is a shining beacon of anti-racism. It's not. But one thing we really hate is a Prime Minister who's an appeaser and a coward.

You don't merely want her not to be an appeaser and a coward. Be honest. You want her to be the growling leader of the US Opposition.
Really really not. I just want a PM who'll call evil what it is. And maybe not hold its hand. And not sell the NHS to it. Oh, and not elbow her way to the front of the queue to stick her tingue up its arse.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9745 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

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I'd like to swap her for Justin Trudeau. Not gonna happen, though.
Posts: 3779 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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All kinds of interesting stuff is circulating about the travel ban. For example, Trump has exempted countries where he does business (e.g. Saudis), and also countries which the US is not bombing, e.g. Nigeria.

Also plenty of analysis of recent terrorist attacks, none of them from the 7 countries named, e.g. Boston marathon attack was by Chechens.

But why would you look for a rational explanation? I suppose Trump supporters like it, because he's doing something, and he's targeting those brown people with weird names.

One problem for Trump - a total Muslim ban would probably be terrible for business and trade, hence, a token number of countries?

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no path

Posts: 9404 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
No actually, she's right . UK passport holders are exactly her problem.

You all seem to believe that a foreign leader should just wade right into the middle of domestic US decisions and seek to undo them in their entirety. It's a deeply unrealistic view of how the world actually works.

However, there is a difference between wading into a country's domestic affair and making clear normative statements at an international level on the basis of a country's behaviour towards foreigners or even its own citizens.

I think I know what you mean: we shouldn't get too involved in business that isn't our. But if we take your argument to its logical conclusion, we should just mind our own business and stop getting so exercised about North Korea's "holiday camps". Oh, and along the way save a buck by closing the International Court of Justice.

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... The Respectable

Posts: 1713 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
All kinds of interesting stuff is circulating about the travel ban. For example, Trump has exempted countries where he does business (e.g. Saudis), and also countries which the US is not bombing, e.g. Nigeria.

Also plenty of analysis of recent terrorist attacks, none of them from the 7 countries named, e.g. Boston marathon attack was by Chechens.

I think this show it for what it is, but it can't be entirely pegged on Trump. Last year, the US lifted the visa-waiver ruling for nationals from Western countries who had travelled to any one of the same seven countries in question, meaning that they would have to apply for a costly visa rather than fill in an ESTA form (I know, because I fall in that category, meaning 150 bucks and a nasty interview should I ever wish to return to the US). But where money is involved, security becomes less urgent. As we know, S.Arabia is a proven exporter of jihadism; meanwhile, when did you last learn of an Iranian blowing him/herself up?

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... The Respectable

Posts: 1713 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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Yes, I guess they stuck Iran in because they just don't like them, although Iranian backed terrorism is limited geographically, I think. And of course, Iran hates IS and AQ, and supports Assad (and Russia).

Well, most of the 7 countries are being bombed by the US, and Iran, they want to bomb!

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no path

Posts: 9404 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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The other point is of course, blowback. Do you wanna bet that ISIS recruiters and propaganda boys are toasting Trump at the moment, in Coke, or whatever they toast things in?

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no path

Posts: 9404 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
deano
princess
# 12063

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Much as I admire Mr Cheney, I think he's wrong on this point.

President Trump's idea is fine and I would welcome us looking at something similar here in the uK.

We would manage the whole thing better of course.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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OK Hell Hosts - 'fess up. Who forgot Deano's meds?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17359 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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I think he took meds ... just not the right ones. It must be comforting to be so stoned that you don't notice the garbage that you type.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31857 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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