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Source: (consider it) Thread: Homophobes
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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I hope this is appropriate here, not DH, because this is not a discussion of homosexuality as such, but the attitude of some people.

This is largely coming from tweets by Vicky Beeching, who has said (in her own far sweeter way) how fucking sick she was of being compared to sickos who fuck animals and children. Because she has been open about being gay.

There was even one person who sent her a detailed explanation of how she was wrong, complete with a book list. Which is a very Christian form of Passive Aggression, it seems.

Now I should make my own position clear - I used to be an opponent of gays, I used to take the view that the bible condemned it. I would argue this relatively well but would never spew the sort of hatred that I see from others at gay people. I have changed my view, as I have learnt more, understood more.

So what is it that makes some people direct such hatred, such vileness at individuals? I can understand the arguments, just not the hatred. Maybe, to make it wider, why can we as Christians not just talk and agree to differ, rather than having to call people bestialists and paedophiles? Which is an appalling thing to call people - any people.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Is it something about the season of the year, that is bringing these weirdos out? A friend of mine is married to the man who penned this. From denigrating witches, on to gay people and then off into the wild blue yonder.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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God forbid the state should overstep its traditional role. Because Jesus defined that role, and the state oversteps it at the peril of its immortal soul.

What fucking bullshit.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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As far as considering LGBT folks to be bad and worthy of insult: maybe some of that is having a big mental box, labeled "Icky Sex Stuff", where people throw any sexual state of being, practice, crime, etc. with which they're uncomfortable--and/or have been taught is wrong/sinful/unnatural.

And *that* may come from thinking that all sins are equally bad (except, of course, the ones that the thinker theirself commits). I don't think that LGB relationships are bad. But *if* they were, and were between consenting adults*, they'd still be much less wrong than sexual abuse of kids, adults, and animals.

*Specified adults, because romantic/sexual relationships between teens can be fraught with all sorts of stuff--for kids of all preferences and genders. And sex between consenting adults is legal.

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
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Nicolemr
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# 28

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The trouble is that people don't mind their own business. So what if you think someone is doing something immoral? As long as no one is getting hurt by it but themselves just shut up about it and keep it to yourself.

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Stercus Tauri
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# 16668

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

There was even one person who sent her a detailed explanation of how she was wrong, complete with a book list. Which is a very Christian form of Passive Aggression, it seems.

Ah... The Book List. It's a favourite weapon of those who really love you but think they can help you get through this. It's not just what I think, you know, but just look at all these published authors who can explain it to you and help you understand. Bring back book burning. One of the nicest, most devout and loving Christian persons of my acquaintance did this to me when I was heavily involved in trying to get the church to understand that we are all just ordinary people, God's people, not fearful acronyms that will somehow destroy everyone else's marriages and tear the church apart. The scars are slow to heal.

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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That, too.

ETA: Referring back to Nicolerm's post.

[ 30. March 2017, 02:57: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Brenda--

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Is it something about the season of the year, that is bringing these weirdos out? A friend of mine is married to the man who penned this. From denigrating witches, on to gay people and then off into the wild blue yonder.

My sympathies to your friend, for being married to that creep. He's a misogynist, who's afraid of losing power and position to women. I doubt he's ever known an actual Pagan or witch. I have close friends who are Pagan, including clergy. They're good people, and they do a lot of good in the world. There are probably some Pagans who do bad in the world, but so do a lot of Christians.

This creep needs to put down the funny mushrooms, LSD, ayahuasca, and his subscription to "Patriarchy R Us", and get to the emergency room. Preferably one with only female staff on duty, all wearing Pagan symbols and the LGBT rainbow flag.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

So what is it that makes some people direct such hatred, such vileness at individuals?

Some people will just hate. And hate is often a fear response. If they believe that homosexuality is a threat to the God-fearing world, this reaction is OTT, but not to surprising.

quote:

I can understand the arguments, just not the hatred. Maybe, to make it wider, why can we as Christians not just talk and agree to differ, rather than having to call people bestialists and paedophiles? Which is an appalling thing to call people - any people.

I think as more people accept homosexuality, this has become an intensifier, reasons as to why they cannot accept LGBT+ and why others should not.
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A friend of mine is married to the man who penned this.

Heh-heh, he said dikes are effective.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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Anything that challenges binary sex roles and male supremacy is going to arouse <nyuk nyuk> those people.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Is it something about the season of the year, that is bringing these weirdos out? A friend of mine is married to the man who penned this. From denigrating witches, on to gay people and then off into the wild blue yonder.

There is a certain style in this type of diatribe that hints at madness, don't you find? Hard to define, but clearly there - a scientist who nobody listens to, but insists he is still right.

As to the icky-ness factor - well yes, sex is icky. I still find the idea of some types of sex brings out the ickiness radar. So I won't do that - but I won't have a problem with other people doing it. Because sex is icky. Maybe some of these people aren't getting any at all, and so have to condemn those who are.

But maybe it is just spring, when young mens hearts turn to telling other people what they shouldn't do because I don't like it.

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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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This is classic:

quote:
The movement is perfectly content to use Christian notions like compassion for the poor, for example, when it allows the state to overstep its traditional role, and take on the charitable acts which once had been the purview of the Church, and, by making them entitlements rather than charitable, to decrease the charity and goodwill in the world.
There you have it folks. The reason for feeding the poor is not that the poor are fed, it's so that rich people can have the opportunity to be charitable.

What a sociopathic view.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
The trouble is that people don't mind their own business. So what if you think someone is doing something immoral? As long as no one is getting hurt by it but themselves just shut up about it and keep it to yourself.

How can it be immoral if no-one gets hurt by it 🤔

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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
This is classic:

quote:
The movement is perfectly content to use Christian notions like compassion for the poor, for example, when it allows the state to overstep its traditional role, and take on the charitable acts which once had been the purview of the Church, and, by making them entitlements rather than charitable, to decrease the charity and goodwill in the world.
There you have it folks. The reason for feeding the poor is not that the poor are fed, it's so that rich people can have the opportunity to be charitable.

What a sociopathic view.

That view is espoused by the acolytes of Ayn Rand and her philosophy of Objectivism. Unfortunately, Objectivist views are on the rise in the US and, perhaps now, the UK?

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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
That view is espoused by the acolytes of Ayn Rand and her philosophy of Objectivism. Unfortunately, Objectivist views are on the rise in the US and, perhaps now, the UK?

No. The rich helping the poor is not espoused by Ayn Rand, and is felt to be "sinful" (in an atheist sense) by her. For whatever reason the rich help the poor. She hates it. It's the essence of what's wrong with Christianity to her.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Though the world would have been no poorer if she'd never written a word, that is incorrect.
In her own words:
quote:
My views on charity are very simple. I do not consider it a major virtue and, above all, I do not consider it a moral duty. There is nothing wrong in helping other people, if and when they are worthy of the help and you can afford to help them. I regard charity as a marginal issue. What I am fighting is the idea that charity is a moral duty and a primary virtue.


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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Brenda--

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Is it something about the season of the year, that is bringing these weirdos out? A friend of mine is married to the man who penned this. From denigrating witches, on to gay people and then off into the wild blue yonder.

My sympathies to your friend, for being married to that creep. He's a misogynist, who's afraid of losing power and position to women. ...

This creep needs to put down the funny mushrooms, LSD, ayahuasca, and his subscription to "Patriarchy R Us", and get to the emergency room. Preferably one with only female staff on duty, all wearing Pagan symbols and the LGBT rainbow flag.

It has taken some years, but a growing circle of our mutual acquaintance is beginning to slowly come to that consensus. This woman is tied to a loon. She may be in trouble, if not now then someday. She loyally supports him and spends a lot of energy on line (Facebook, etc.) cleaning up after him, rationalizing and explaining, etc.
It is not clear what, if anything, can be done about this. There are four children, some with disabilities. He is the only one working outside the home. I no longer feel comfortable inviting them to dinner (he's really intolerable). I work myself during the day, and so cannot visit her. I run into her at professional functions and am friendly then, perhaps twice a year. I had to bail out of her Facebook page because his friends are all there, bloviating.

[ 30. March 2017, 14:16: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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Boogie, many people think things are immoral that hurt no one but the person doing them, if they in fact hurt anyone at all.

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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I was on the receiving end of homophobia for years in the Church of England. The aggression ranged from the tediously passive to the painfully active, but all had one thing in common - there was no "phobia" about it. This was not fear, this was all that was most base and revolting about human nature, directed against someone they'd persuaded themselves Wasn't Like Us.

And that's what it is. The good old fashioned dislike-for-the-unlike, the animal instinct at the back of our brains now so proscribed by there being so many categories of people you're not allowed to hate, finding one category that the Church won't object too much about you lashing out at.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Boogie, many people think things are immoral that hurt no one but the person doing them, if they in fact hurt anyone at all.

I didn't ask that, I asked "how could it be immoral if it hurts no-one?" i.e. no one at all.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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Well don't ask me, ask the people who believe it. All I said was people who do believe that actions that are harmless to anyone save the people who are doing them are immoral should have the courtesy to shut up and mind their own business about it.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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Oooo look (Aussies look away now, though you probably know this already) a desperately bullied archbishop speaks

My sympathy knows no..............beginning.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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I think the point is that if you consider something immoral, the assumption is that it is hurting someone. If you believe that gay sex will send you to hell, that is the "hurt". So I think it is fair to assume that thinking someone is immoral, you think it will do then harm.

That, surely, is the problem - a belief that being gay will hurt people. When I believed that being gay was wrong, that would be my argument, and I would therefore try to help people not hurt themselves (or others).

But then this doesn't seen to fit with deliberately and explicitly hurting these people. Why send hate mail to someone if you have any real concern about them hurting themselves? Even if you just want to stop them hurting others, doing this by sending them hate mail doesn't make sense. It only makes sense if you actually hate them and want them to die painfully.

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Blog
My books for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
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Gracious rebel

Rainbow warrior
# 3523

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Oooo look (Aussies look away now, though you probably know this already) a desperately bullied archbishop speaks

My sympathy knows no..............beginning.

That link takes me to a page asking payment for subscribing to The Australian.

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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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That link slammed me into a paywall so hard it nearly knocked the mobile from my hands. a search on Glenn Davies only brought that link or much older ones.

[ 30. March 2017, 19:32: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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I'm sorry, I'm not sure why it didn't me - perhaps my evil adblocker came to my aid.

You aren't missing much.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Net Spinster
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# 16058

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
That link slammed me into a paywall so hard it nearly knocked the mobile from my hands. a search on Glenn Davies only brought that link or much older ones.

You can look at the cached version from the search engine (I found it in google's cache).

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spinner of webs

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Thank you.

Here is an easily accessible synopsis.
More of the "you are oppressing me by not allowing me to oppress" rubbish.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Gee D
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# 13815

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You need to know that the Anglican Church League, the source linked by lilBuddha, is the organisation which strongly supports Sydney Anglicanism. The Australian newspaper in the first links is a Murdoch publication. As far as reporting of news is concerned, it's a very good paper. Alas, the same can no longer be said about its comment pages; when the paper was new and especially under the editorship of Adrian Deamer, they were quite liberal (not Liberal), well worth reading and very influential. No longer.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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L'organist
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# 17338

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If you read the article the Archbishop of Sydney goes on to say
quote:
Even in Aboriginal culture marriage is valued as between a man and a woman.
[Eek!]

This puts carrying on digging when you're already in a hole into a hitherto unknown league.

No doubt this is one of the bishops that ++Justin and ++York are thinking of when they say we need to ensure the CofE keeps on the side of other member churches of the Anglican Communion. [Mad]

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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keibat
Apprentice
# 5287

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L'Organist wrote, re the Abp of Sydney:
quote:
No doubt this is one of the bishops that ++Justin and ++York are thinking of when they say we need to ensure the CofE keeps on the side of other member churches of the Anglican Communion.
Actually I rather doubt it – I think they are concerned about the Africans (excepting the Southern African Province, that is). Sydney only finds favour with a very, very small Evangelical minority within the C of E.
And by the way, if you're going to call Canterbury by his Christian name (++Justin), shouldn't you do the same for York (++Sentamu)?

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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Ahem.

/Pedant alert/

Shouldn't that be ++ John .....?

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Ahem.

/Pedant alert/

Shouldn't that be ++ John .....?

IJ

Apparently not. cf. the recent statement on erm...well, the obvious issue......

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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[Confused]

Am I missing summink here? ++Justin (Welby) is My Lord of Canterbury, and ++John (Sentamu) is My Lord of York.

Any references to a Certain Person whose initials are JJ were not intended.....

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Arethosemyfeet
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The Archbishop of York is styled Sentamu Ebor at his own request.
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Bishops Finger
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Well, I never! I stand corrected, and thanks for the info.

Normal service on this thread may now resume...

[Hot and Hormonal] [Hot and Hormonal]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Dark Knight

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I wouldn't wipe my arse with The Australian. It's trash.
Here is a link to the story from the ABC.
The Archbishop is simply wrong, and probably knows he is. Polls have indicated most Australians support marriage equality.

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Dark Knight

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Latest polling report I'm aware of is here.
See page 5, which indicates 57% of Australians would vote for marriage equality in a plebiscite.
Presumably his grace can read.

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Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Huia
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NZ has become a wedding venue for some Australian same sex couples.

I'm guessing that marriage is not deemed valid when the couple return home.

Thanks for the polling report Dark Knight. I hadn't read any figures before.

Huia

[ 01. April 2017, 04:28: Message edited by: Huia ]

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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Garden Hermit
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Being pretty old now I remember a time before the Pill and when sex was said to be only for marriage. Our Society does now seem totally obsessed by sex (in the Media certainly) giving the impression that if you are not getting your fair share you are not normal. The real facts seem to be that people are actually getting less and less.
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Garden Hermit
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I remember reading the first Kinsey reports (published 1950s?). I remember being slightly horrified when he said that all humans were bisexual and adulterous and refused to categorise them into heterosexuals and heterosexuals although he did say heterosexuality and homosexuality did exist. He gave his subjects lots of sexual situations and asked them to rate them erotically.
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lilBuddha
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Kinsey was important in the conversations he started, but his methodology was horrendous. Whilst it is more and more apparent that sexuality is a spectrum, one needs to read his conclusions carefully.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Siegfried
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
That view is espoused by the acolytes of Ayn Rand and her philosophy of Objectivism. Unfortunately, Objectivist views are on the rise in the US and, perhaps now, the UK?

No. The rich helping the poor is not espoused by Ayn Rand, and is felt to be "sinful" (in an atheist sense) by her. For whatever reason the rich help the poor. She hates it. It's the essence of what's wrong with Christianity to her.
No--what I was referring to was that the only motivation for charity or other acts of of kindness ar when they benefit the one performing the acts. Not the act of charity itself.

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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!

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Schroedinger's cat

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Kinsey was important in the conversations he started, but his methodology was horrendous. Whilst it is more and more apparent that sexuality is a spectrum, one needs to read his conclusions carefully.

I think that is the important thing from the last however-many-years growth of understanding, that sexuality is not as straight forward as it might appear.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
NZ has become a wedding venue for some Australian same sex couples.

I'm guessing that marriage is not deemed valid when the couple return home.

Thanks for the polling report Dark Knight. I hadn't read any figures before.

Huia

To be recognsied here, a marriage performed in another jurisdiction has to have been valld there and would have been valid had it been performed here. In other words, no bigamous/polygamous marriages, not yet gay marriages and so forth.

As to Kinsey's sexual direction, I understood that modern teaching was that while it was a spectrum, most people were gathered at the straight end, some at the gay and but not so many on the wide band between. Is that still the case?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

As to Kinsey's sexual direction, I understood that modern teaching was that while it was a spectrum, most people were gathered at the straight end, some at the gay and but not so many on the wide band between. Is that still the case?

Varies, depending on who you ask, but yes. Though the fluidity of those positions is being questioned as well.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Gee D
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Thanks - and just making it clear that there was nothing directed against anyone or their inclinations in my post.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Huia
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
To be recognsied here, a marriage performed in another jurisdiction has to have been valld there and would have been valid had it been performed here. In other words, no bigamous/polygamous marriages, not yet gay marriages and so forth.

Thanks Gee D - I thought that would be the case.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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orfeo

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I know a number of couples married in New Zealand... or Canada, or in a UK high commission.

It's a standard part of conversation with homosexual couples, to ask where they got married because it's always overseas in some form.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Gee D
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Perhaps 1 day soon......

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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