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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Boris, you complete prick.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Boris Johnson - the foreign minister of the Tory government - has managed one of his "gaffes" and offended an entire religion by promoting cheaper whisky in a Sikh temple.
Of course, this is not headline news, as he is a Tory, but really should be. He has refused to apologise too.
Of course the real threat to the country is Dianne Abbot getting her figures confused, not an idiotic buffoon making offensive remarks and alienating entire swathes of people.
Next thing he will be talking about a trade deal with Israel, so the cost of Jesus body will be cheaper.
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Blog
My books for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18161 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Only a Tory government bent on ridding England of foreigners could have a minister called Boris.
Clearly a tool of Putin.
(Or should that be 'fool'? Anyway, he's a disgrace to the country).
IJ
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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...
Posts: 7424 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
TBH, I'd take more offense in how he said it:
"when we go to Mumbai we have to bring clinky clinky in our luggage"
Which speaks volumes about which fucking century the Tories think they are in.
Posts: 3357 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
TBH, I'd take more offense in how he said it:
"when we go to Mumbai we have to bring clinky clinky in our luggage"
Which speaks volumes about which fucking century the Tories think they are in.
With the Duke of Edinburgh taking leave of public duties it looks like Boris has stepped up.
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If someone takes a shot at President Trump will his bodyguards shout "Donald Duck"?
Posts: 23627 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
The wall against which these egregious idiots are eventually going to be lined up will have to be a looooooooong one.
How's that wall between you and Mexico going, Mr. Pussygrabber?
IJ
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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...
Posts: 7424 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The wall against which these egregious idiots are eventually going to be lined up will have to be a looooooooong one.
Advocating execution for people who say something someone finds offensive. Nice.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 29666 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
Who's advocating? Predicting isn't the same thing.
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Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2711 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
One only dreads what's next. Maybe he'll give a speech about pork markets at an Islamic/Jewish interfaith meeting. Or he'll decide to celebrate the 500th anniversary of the start of the reformation at a catholic church.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3488 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The wall against which these egregious idiots are eventually going to be lined up will have to be a looooooooong one.
Advocating execution for people who say something someone finds offensive. Nice.
He's just exercising his freedom of speech. Suck it up, snowflake.
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Lost in Space
Posts: 8229 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
This is all bollocks. Some Sikhs are teetotal, some aren't. Last count, 28% of Sikhs drink alcohol at least once a week.
It just sounds like a particularly religious woman took exception to talking about alcohol inside the temple, like a Christian teetotaler might take exception with it in a church. God knows, I know Christians who would take exception to filming in a church, to talking about buying anything in a church, in having a blond ex-Eton schoolboy opening his gob in a church.
He did it. Some old woman was offended. Big deal. Get over it.
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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
One only dreads what's next. Maybe he'll give a speech about pork markets at an Islamic/Jewish interfaith meeting. Or he'll decide to celebrate the 500th anniversary of the start of the reformation at a catholic church.
Oh shut up. I mean, really.
As if we haven't got enough to talk about regarding the Tories and their bullshit ideas for screwing around with the poorest and weakest in our society, we have to invent things to get offended by that they haven't even done yet.
Stick with the programme, attack the policy not the fool who tried to answer a daft question in a slightly-less-than-favourable religious building.
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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The wall against which these egregious idiots are eventually going to be lined up will have to be a looooooooong one.
Really. What the actual fuck is this supposed to mean?
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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
My understanding is that different sects of Sikhism have different ideas about alcohol. Does anyone happen to know what the teachings of this temple are?
I know there is a Sikh woman claiming to be offended by what he said, but the posted article merely said she was angry about alcohol being promoted in "a place of worship".
Plus, I'm also familiar with the phenomenon of one person from a group loudly claiming to be speaking on behalf of the whole group, when in fact, they have no such standing in the community they claim to represent.
If the temple has no teaching against alcohol, I don't see why a political speechmaker shouldn't mention it as an item in a trade agreement. That would be like saying you shouldn't discuss health-care spending in a Baptist church, because Christian Scientists don't believe in that.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6036 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
My understanding is that different sects of Sikhism have different ideas about alcohol. Does anyone happen to know what the teachings of this temple are?
I know there is a Sikh woman claiming to be offended by what he said, but the posted article merely said she was angry about alcohol being promoted in "a place of worship".
Plus, I'm also familiar with the phenomenon of one person from a group loudly claiming to be speaking on behalf of the whole group, when in fact, they have no such standing in the community they claim to represent.
If the temple has no teaching against alcohol, I don't see why a political speechmaker shouldn't mention it as an item in a trade agreement. That would be like saying you shouldn't discuss health-care spending in a Baptist church, because Christian Scientists don't believe in that.
It's not as if he would have checked, though, is it? Frankly we're lucky he didn't come out with it in a mosque.
Besides which, I am not entirely sure of the salience of "Brexit is great because we can flog the Indians whisky and we won't have to bring our own stuff with us when we visit." Unless Johnny Walker have a Sikh Temple attached to the premises and these were all employees.
Boris' whole shtick is "don't worry about Brexit because we'll still have access to the finer things in life." Which is making me channel my inner Tonto. What's this "we" business, white man. We know the likes of Boris will be absolutely tickety-boo whatever happens, but a lot of other people won't be. In any event, in some corner of the afterlife, Samuel Hoare and Selwyn Lloyd have stopped arguing over who was the worst Foreign Secretary in British history and are beginning to look rather smug.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9585 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Boris' whole shtick is "don't worry about Brexit because we'll still have access to the finer things in life." Which is making me channel my inner Tonto. What's this "we" business, white man. We know the likes of Boris will be absolutely tickety-boo whatever happens, but a lot of other people won't be.
Yes. The content of what he said and the attitude it expressed were ridiculous. The very idea that he associated being in a Sikh temple with alcohol in India is nauseating.
Castigate him for that, not for daring to mention alcohol in a Sikh place of worship.
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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
It's not as if he would have checked, though, is it? Frankly we're lucky he didn't come out with it in a mosque.
It looks like a case of 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing' - he has Sikh inlaws and just assumed they were normative.
Rather like if, on the basis of my acquaintanceship with clergy who are alumni of St Stephen's House, I assumed that Nicky Gumbell would find it hilarious to be called Edith the Cruel ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 6891 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
stetson: quote:
I know there is a Sikh woman claiming to be offended by what he said...
What are you suggesting - that you don't think she had any right to be offended (because she's a woman? because she's a teetotaler?), or that you think she was lying about being offended?
I wasn't there, but from the various things I've read about the way BoJo the Clown behaved I am surprised only one person complained. I'd have found his behaviour annoying, and I am neither Sikh nor Indian.
Posts: 3507 | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
stetson: quote:
I know there is a Sikh woman claiming to be offended by what he said...
What are you suggesting - that you don't think she had any right to be offended (because she's a woman? because she's a teetotaler?), or that you think she was lying about being offended?
Or maybe just that the fact that she was offended doesn't actually matter?
It's inevitable that someone would get offended were a politician to, say, be positive about same-sex marriage during an election speech in a cathedral. Would that make the politician a "threat to the country"?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 29666 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Marvin: quote:
Or maybe just that the fact that she was offended doesn't actually matter?
Every time I think my opinion of you can't get any lower, you prove me wrong.
I didn't say that I considered BoJo a threat to the country, but since you have brought the subject up yourself I think his behaviour as Foreign Secretary has seriously damaged our international reputation (what's left of it). In that sense you are correct; the fact that one elderly Sikh woman said publicly that she was offended by his remarks doesn't matter. It is, however, symptomatic of a wider problem, and I have seen no evidence yet that he takes greater care not to offend people with the power to refuse all these post-Brexit trade deals that are going to make us rich beyond the dreams of avarice.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Every time I think my opinion of you can't get any lower, you prove me wrong.
I didn't say that I considered BoJo a threat to the country, but since you have brought the subject up yourself I think his behaviour as Foreign Secretary has seriously damaged our international reputation (what's left of it). In that sense you are correct; the fact that one elderly Sikh woman said publicly that she was offended by his remarks doesn't matter. It is, however, symptomatic of a wider problem, and I have seen no evidence yet that he takes greater care not to offend people with the power to refuse all these post-Brexit trade deals that are going to make us rich beyond the dreams of avarice.
Please explain why the offense felt by an elderly Sikh woman is so serious, given that plenty of other Sikhs are not bothered about this particular issue. Surely you understand that someone is almost always going to be offended about something that any politician says at any time?
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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Conversely, UK politicians visit places of worship regularly - they frequently host hustings, but incidents like this are in fact very rare.
I guarantee all the party leaders and most of the candidates have visited places of worship in the last twelve months - how many have ended up in this situation ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 18936 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Conversely, UK politicians visit places of worship regularly - they frequently host hustings, but incidents like this are in fact very rare.
I guarantee all the party leaders and most of the candidates have visited places of worship in the last twelve months - how many have ended up in this situation ?
I have personally witnessed people getting offended by the theology of candidates at a husting in a church. It never reached the news.
So I suspect that in practice this happens a lot. Usually it isn't news.
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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Good points made. Do people have the right not to be offended? Does it matter if it was in a house of worship? Is this Boris guy the type that if he was told by the offended woman or someone else that he's offended her someone who would apologise or someone who'd say eff off? Does he get more votes by saying eff off or by apologising?
And finally, does he have to wear a turban? and is orange the only colour?
Myself, I think there is no right not to be offended, that polite people say sorry in many circumstances of causing offence. I'm not knowledgeable about Boris except that would not apologising might appeal to the anti-brown people bloc of voters.
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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/
Posts: 10286 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
stetson: quote:
I know there is a Sikh woman claiming to be offended by what he said...
What are you suggesting - that you don't think she had any right to be offended (because she's a woman? because she's a teetotaler?), or that you think she was lying about being offended?
No, she was probably sincerely offended by what he said. The phenomenon of someone lying about being offended in order to advance some sort of agenda or other(usually political) is certainly not unknown, but I have no reason to think that's what happened here.
So let me re-work that...
There is a woman who was offended, and it trying to claim that she speaks for all Sikhs in being offended. ("It's at the core of our religion etc")
Posts: 6036 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
And finally, does he have to wear a turban? and is orange the only colour?
Headgear is requested for all in at least one Temple and car park.
Unfortunately the writing is too small to read until you've breached the perimeter to read the sign fascinated by the more legible request against horse drawn carriages and some kind of band. Leading to a Jayemm desperately trying to find a respectful&apologetic&acknowledging posture to any witnesses (a turbanned person entering the temple afterwards did wave, so I think my rudeness was acknowledged as ignorance, and it wasn't the one in our town-so I'll never see them again anyway).
Posts: 1537 | Registered: May 2006
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I think she might have had a right to be very, very angry. Considering that under the Tories military advice and planning was provided to support the Golden Temple attack in 1984. That didn't turn out very well for Sihk's and if memory serves, the whole thing was denied (at least in part) until a few years ago. In fact I think there was even an official enquiry, so the Tories have a lot of work to do with Sihk's and sadly Boris aint the one to be let out of his cage of an afternoon to do it.
The video of the incident is available pretty much everywhere on the internet at present. She is not ranting and she's barely raising her voice above what is necessary to be heard. She is concise, reasoned and direct and had every right to say what she did. Boris made an idiotic gaff. It isn't the first and won't be the last. He instantly tries to dismiss her with repeated injunctions that he is sorry she feels that way about it, despite the fact that she has patiently explained that this is a matter of belief for Sihk's. If you watch the video, the very second he begins to mention 'clinky, clinky' you can see everyone looking at one another, slightly unsettled. The fact that he persists is even more cringe worthy. He's an utter fool who should have been ditched at the first opportunity.
Next week we'll probably hear how he trots off to some Mosque to do the same thing again there.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5097 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
He's an utter fool who should have been ditched at the first opportunity.
Can anyone name a politician or few who aren't fools, deformed of personality, up to the trough like little piggies joined by their corporate piggy friends?
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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/
Posts: 10286 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
He's an utter fool who should have been ditched at the first opportunity.
Can anyone name a politician or few who aren't fools, deformed of personality, up to the trough like little piggies joined by their corporate piggy friends?
Above all others in my time, John Smith, British Labour leader in the 1990's until his untimely death.
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If someone takes a shot at President Trump will his bodyguards shout "Donald Duck"?
Posts: 23627 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Ah yes, the best Prime Minister we never had...
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
I expect there are/were others, but none spring directly to mind!
I know one or two local politicians who do a really good job for their constituents.
IJ
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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...
Posts: 7424 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
He's an utter fool who should have been ditched at the first opportunity.
Can anyone name a politician or few who aren't fools, deformed of personality, up to the trough like little piggies joined by their corporate piggy friends?
I don't think ours is in the trough proper. Proclaimed some barbaric views, I presume sincerely, but not seen any evidence of scandal.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Oh please. One person was unhappy, he apologised. How is this news?
It's only news because these days filling web pages is a major requirement and the supply of tea cups that need to have storms in them is never ending.
There's no sign that she spoke for all Sikhs or even claimed to do so. Nope. It's a report that one member of an audience was unhappy.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 17864 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
There's no sign that she spoke for all Sikhs or even claimed to do so. Nope. It's a report that one member of an audience was unhappy.
And a neat illustration that a principal minister in Her Majesty's Government can't open his mouth without putting his foot in it. Moreover "I'm very sorry if you think alcohol is a bad thing, I understand your point of view." isn't an apology: it's an poor attempt to excuse hamfistedness. Genuine apologies don't have "if" in them.
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If someone takes a shot at President Trump will his bodyguards shout "Donald Duck"?
Posts: 23627 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
You are setting a ridiculously low bar if your requirement is that no one anywhere is unhappy with a statement. Seriously, you're reducing political conversation to nothing more than meaningless inane platitudes.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 17864 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You are setting a ridiculously low bar if your requirement is that no one anywhere is unhappy with a statement. Seriously, you're reducing political conversation to nothing more than meaningless inane platitudes.
I'm getting worried. You seem to have had an intellect disposal. Try reading for comprehension rather than sticking to an opinion you have since your schooldays.
Posts: 23627 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
You think I had an opinion about British politicians in my schooldays?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 17864 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
It's only through this thread that I became aware that Sikhs forbid the consumption of alcohol, and would not be surprised if Boris had not known that either despite the much larger numbers of Sikhs in the UK. But one of his staffers should have done a quick check and alerted him to comments to avoid/not make.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 6121 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
It's only through this thread that I became aware that Sikhs forbid the consumption of alcohol
If you were reading it carefully you would have become aware that some Sikhs forbid it.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 17864 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Based on my extensive experience of five minutes on Google, I can't find any evidence of any Sikh school of thought that doesn't forbid alcohol.
Some individual Sikhs drink alcohol, yes, but so do some Muslims.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 6891 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I agree. But individuals are people too. "Sikhs" are not pieces of writing but living human beings.
So is Boris just in trouble for airing a dirty secret?
[ 20. May 2017, 07:56: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 17864 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Conversely, UK politicians visit places of worship regularly - they frequently host hustings, but incidents like this are in fact very rare.
I guarantee all the party leaders and most of the candidates have visited places of worship in the last twelve months - how many have ended up in this situation ?
I have personally witnessed people getting offended by the theology of candidates at a husting in a church. It never reached the news.
So I suspect that in practice this happens a lot. Usually it isn't news.
Theological disagreement is a different matter from breach of custom in a place of worship. There's a big difference between taking part in a debate and stating you disagree about x, or are an atheist, versus - say - wandering around a mosque with your shoes on, or using a votive candle to light your fag.
Boris was being careless and ignorant - this and his monumental tactlessness are a problem. On various occasions he's been obliged to apologise to entire cities - this is part of a pattern of arrogant indifference.
[ 20. May 2017, 08:04: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 18936 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
He's an utter fool who should have been ditched at the first opportunity.
Can anyone name a politician or few who aren't fools, deformed of personality, up to the trough like little piggies joined by their corporate piggy friends?
I think Jeremy Corbyn claimed Minimal prliamentary expenses last year.
http://www.mpsexpenses.info/#!/mp/226/2015
[ 20. May 2017, 08:08: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 18936 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
There's a big difference between taking part in a debate and stating you disagree about x, or are an atheist, versus - say - wandering around a mosque with your shoes on, or using a votive candle to light your fag.
Oh FFS, you'd think he'd taken a bottle of wine with him and swigged from it.
Seriously, you just made a comparison where, on one side, you have debate and policy, and on the other you have actions. And yet you still look as if you're trying to place Boris on the naughty side of your comparison.
He made a statement about policy. It's there in the article. He made a statement about what a future Conservative government would do. In which case he clearly belongs on the GOOD side of the comparison that you yourself set up.
I don't really give a damn about the man or his policies, but I do give a damn about the rampant bias that is showing in this conversation.
If you accept a person in a church stating in a debate that they disagree with a church policy, then exactly the same logic applies to stating in a Sikh temple that your policy is contrary in some way to a Sikh teaching.
The only reason for not treating those two situations the same is the kind of fetishistic treatment of other religions and cultures that mainstream people often engage in as they fall over themselves trying to demonstrate just how culturally sensitive they are.
[ 20. May 2017, 08:36: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 17864 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Have you seen the whole clip, orfeo? Boris referred to alcohol as the "clinky, clinky" ("we have to bring clinky clinky in our luggage). Is that a usual way to refer to alcohol? It sounded to me as though he was speaking in pidgin English to the brown people, but perhaps "clinky, clinky" is an everyday expression in London? It's not an expression I've heard before.
Posts: 6269 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I agree. But individuals are people too. "Sikhs" are not pieces of writing but living human beings.
So is Boris just in trouble for airing a dirty secret?
Possibly. ISTM he wasn't just making a general statement about the benefits of Brexit with the gurdwara as a picturesque background - he was trying to connect with his audience by suggesting that they personally could benefit from the ability to drink alcohol without import duties. Which is saying that the audience, personally, are all disobedient to the tenants of their own religion. Which, even if it might be true, is still pretty offensive.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 6891 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Have you seen the whole clip, orfeo? Boris referred to alcohol as the "clinky, clinky" ("we have to bring clinky clinky in our luggage). Is that a usual way to refer to alcohol? It sounded to me as though he was speaking in pidgin English to the brown people, but perhaps "clinky, clinky" is an everyday expression in London? It's not an expression I've heard before.
But the reporting doesn't indicate that the choice of word is what caused offence. If it was, that could well be a different issue. But the reporting seems to indicate this person was offended by the mention of alcohol, not by which word he used to refer to alcohol.
Of course, the reporting could just be shit.
[ 20. May 2017, 09:37: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 17864 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Yes; it's exactly the same as entering a synagogue and telling everyone present that now that Britain has its Brexit everyone in Israel can benefit from reduced tariffs on bacon imports.
I've said it before elsewhere on these boards; I cannot figure out if this man is wantonly racist and offensive (and uses the jester routine as a cover) or is just profoundly stupid. I'd love to be charitable and say he is just a village idiot, but when his responses to those who criticise him are manufactured to silence them and paint their opinion as irrelevant, I'm inclined to think the worst.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5097 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
He made a statement about policy. It's there in the article. He made a statement about what a future Conservative government would do.
Yes, he made a statement of policy. And, he did so in a way that was totally inappropriate in the circumstances he was in.
There is nothing wrong with opening trade with India (though, personally, I consider it utmost stupidity to put up barriers to trade with the rest of the EU to reduce barriers to trade elsewhere). But, for that to make sense (especially given the cost of a hard Brexit in relation to European trade) then that must result in significant increases in trade between the UK and India. That is a lot more than just increasing sales of UK produced alcohol beverages to a nation where the religion of a sizable part of the population prohibits consumption of alcohol. Could Boris not come up with other examples of the benefits of improved UK-India trade? Was all he could think of "clinky clinky", and he couldn't keep his gob shut in a place of worship of a religion which prohibits consumption of alcohol?
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Citizen of the world.
Posts: 31515 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
He made a statement about policy. It's there in the article. He made a statement about what a future Conservative government would do.
Yes, he made a statement of policy. And, he did so in a way that was totally inappropriate in the circumstances he was in.
There is nothing wrong with opening trade with India (though, personally, I consider it utmost stupidity to put up barriers to trade with the rest of the EU to reduce barriers to trade elsewhere). But, for that to make sense (especially given the cost of a hard Brexit in relation to European trade) then that must result in significant increases in trade between the UK and India. That is a lot more than just increasing sales of UK produced alcohol beverages to a nation where the religion of a sizable part of the population prohibits consumption of alcohol. Could Boris not come up with other examples of the benefits of improved UK-India trade? Was all he could think of "clinky clinky", and he couldn't keep his gob shut in a place of worship of a religion which prohibits consumption of alcohol?
I've no great interest in you moving doublethink's goalposts on her behalf. My post was quite specifically directed at the framework that had been set up where policy discussion:good, breaking rules of place of worship:bad.
You want to argue a different line that says policy discussion is in fact bad if it's done badly. Which actually does have some merit as an argument.
But then you go further and say he ought to have kept his gob shut? Well why the hell do you think he was even there, if not to talk about his party's policies?
This is what is pissing me off. Not sympathy for his position or his comments, but the desire to make a mountain out of a molehill and paint it as something far more terrible than a sober assessment would warrant.
I'm left-leaning, but honestly, few things seem to show how far left the Ship leans than UK politics. People start frothing at the mouth over all sorts of things. And yes, some of them are worth a rant, but then you get threads like this one starting up in Hell and...
I end up thinking that Hell must have cooled down because the snowflakes keep visiting.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 17864 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I'm not sure I can follow your train of thought. You're pissed off because some people are irritated that Boris made another gaff and the same people are a bit fed up with a long train wreck of gaffs? You're pissed off because people are talking about it now? You're pissed off because some people - namely the people his comments were directed at and the same people in front of him he was addressing; the very same grouping that the Tories have a murky and deeply unpleasant history with - were irritated by the stupidity of Boris despite probably feeling that (bearing in mind the sensitivities of such a visit by a Tory member of government) he would in all likelihood have been briefed in order to defray any 'difficult' scenes? You're pissed off because the Sihks' had the good grace to have a Tory in their Gudwara, despite the past and the fact that there is at least some responsibility for the deaths in 1984 (of which it is not unreasonable to suggest that some may be family members or friends) on the part of the party this buffoon represents, makes a thorough mess of the gesture by acting the wag yet again?
Yes....I'm sure you've a lot to be pissed off about, I just don't see it here.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5097 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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