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Source: (consider it) Thread: Amazonification
chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Supermarkets are just about bearable because you frequent them often enough to know their layout.

And they know that, so from time to time they rearrange the layout to get you to walk past things you weren't walking past previously.
Absolutely, but they are still preferable to - say - a toy shop.
Posts: 3663 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Supermarkets are just about bearable because you frequent them often enough to know their layout.

And they know that, so from time to time they rearrange the layout to get you to walk past things you weren't walking past previously.
Absolutely, but they are still preferable to - say - a toy shop.
Your original complaint ("shops are generally designed to deliberately lead you past lots of things you don't want in order to get to the thing you do want") suggested that the problem, as you saw it, was that shops have cottoned onto the fact that if people see things that they hadn't come in for some people might by them.

I'm wondering why you think on-line retailers are better in this regard? Or, haven't you noticed the various "other people who bought this also bought that" or "we think you might be interested in ..." items that they put prominently on their sites as you browse for what you need, or proceed to checkout?

On-line or high street, shops do the same things to try and get people to part with their money. On that score, there's precious little between them to suggest one is any better or worse than the other.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31898 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Absolutely, but they are still preferable to - say - a toy shop.

You seem to be saying that there are a lot of cool things in a toy shop that you can't help buying if you walk past them, so you wish the things that you want to buy were in the front of the store.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62864 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

I'm wondering why you think on-line retailers are better in this regard? Or, haven't you noticed the various "other people who bought this also bought that" or "we think you might be interested in ..." items that they put prominently on their sites as you browse for what you need, or proceed to checkout?

On-line or high street, shops do the same things to try and get people to part with their money.

Of course they do, the difference is that its easier to click away from a website than it is to walk out of a shop - and so online shops still have some incentive to help you find what you actually want reasonably quickly even if they are trying to cross sell. So they invest fairly heavily in their search functions.

It probably helps that I'm rarely browsing.

quote:

You seem to be saying that there are a lot of cool things in a toy shop that you can't help buying if you walk past them, so you wish the things that you want to buy were in the front of the store.

Heh. No not at all. I just had reason recently to walk into a toy shop to get a last minute birthday present. I knew roughly what I wanted to buy - walked to the area of the store purporting to sell it - and was greated with a jumbled of boxes of different colours piled from floor to ceiling. At which point I gave it up for a bad job.
Posts: 3663 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I knew roughly what I wanted to buy - walked to the area of the store purporting to sell it - and was greated with a jumbled of boxes of different colours piled from floor to ceiling. At which point I gave it up for a bad job.

Sounds like a bad toy shop. I wouldn't give up on them altogether.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Everyone here needs to remember that Adam Smith (that one, yes) said that no private company in an open market will ever sustain a large profit margin.

So, if you think you're not paying for delivery, you're wrong. You most certainly are, and in probably far more ways than the actual cost of the item.

Despite it being one of my main trading platforms, I don't buy from them. It simply costs me, and my community, far too much.

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Get your arse to Mars

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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chris--

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I knew roughly what I wanted to buy - walked to the area of the store purporting to sell it - and was greated with a jumbled of boxes of different colours piled from floor to ceiling. At which point I gave it up for a bad job.

I wasn't there, but sometimes stores make displays like what you describe. But, if not, then yeah, it would be off-putting. YMMV.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

So, if you think you're not paying for delivery, you're wrong. You most certainly are, and in probably far more ways than the actual cost of the item.

The game with "free" stuff is always to try and be the one getting subsidized rather than the one paying the subsidy. cf. Students at the all-you-can-eat buffet, or perhaps Arethosemyfeet's beautiful but remote and expensive-to-deliver-to corner.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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The Hebrides have exactly the same postage rates as everywhere else in the country...

We're already subsidising them, and are happy to do so, because they're part of the UK.

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Get your arse to Mars

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Of course they do, the difference is that its easier to click away from a website than it is to walk out of a shop

I'm trying to think of a rational basis for this claim. So far I'm coming up with a blank. But then maybe shops are using magnets and forcefields these days.

That's my first thought. Admittedly my second thought was: Ikea.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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I think it's psychological. When You take out time in your day to get to the shops - which may involve driving a car and paying for parking, getting a bus, or a walk through the rain - with the specific aim of getting a particular item then there's a psychological barrier to going home without what you went for, or at least without something.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31898 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The Hebrides have exactly the same postage rates as everywhere else in the country...

I think, though, that many "mail" order companies use private delivery contractors, who charge more for the Islands.
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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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I don't go shopping.

I frequent shops often for puppy training and maybe buy one thing to teach the pup to wait nicely at the till.

But all my shopping is done online, even for expensive items. I bought very expensive binoculars last month, they weren't right and I sent them back and got a different pair. My husband was horrified, he'd be having a trip to the city and combing the shops trying them out. I try things at home and send them back if they are not right.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Graven Image
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# 8755

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Boogie posted
quote:
I don't go shopping.
Same here for the most part. I buy staples on line, paper towels and such, go to the local farmers market, where I have found my favorites and shop at a smaller family owned grocery store for other things. I have a bit of trouble walking.
It is so much easier then lugging packages from the car and into the house.with staples such as peanut butter and detergent. I find I spend less them going to a supermarket. There was a time when I could get local fresh fruits and veggies delivered to my door as well. That got to expensive but I liked it.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The Hebrides have exactly the same postage rates as everywhere else in the country...

I think, though, that many "mail" order companies use private delivery contractors, who charge more for the Islands.
As I discovered on a recent book-sending frenzy, the Royal Mail's 'Small parcel' rate of £2.90 for 2kg anywhere in the country is a glorious thing.

The 'privatisation' (aka cherry picking) of mail delivery was a cost private industry placed on the consumer. We're still paying for it.

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Get your arse to Mars

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The Hebrides have exactly the same postage rates as everywhere else in the country...

My daughter moved with her family from Austin, TX to a small town nearby. When she lived in Austin, it was cheaper to send things UPS. When she moved to the small town, UPS added a delivery charge which made it cheaper to use the post office.

Moo

[ 30. August 2017, 12:08: Message edited by: Moo ]

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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General post is a public good, and should therefore be one price, wherever you are in a given polity.

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Get your arse to Mars

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I think it's psychological. When You take out time in your day to get to the shops - which may involve driving a car and paying for parking, getting a bus, or a walk through the rain - with the specific aim of getting a particular item then there's a psychological barrier to going home without what you went for, or at least without something.

The ease or difficulty of navigating a shop and finding what you're after varies considerably with a shop. And I think exactly the same is true of websites.

In both cases, I don't return to the ones that are hard work, make me grumpy, and where a visit often ends with me leaving without the thing I was looking for.

To me, the idea that websites "save time" because you don't physically travel is a pernicious myth. On the contrary, a bad online shop can suck up time like a Hoover.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Also, if it takes you hours to navigate IKEA, you're doing it wrong.

I can be in and out, with everything I need, within half an hour, and usually less.

(pro-tip - look up the codes on the website and enter the store through the tills)

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Get your arse to Mars

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
To me, the idea that websites "save time" because you don't physically travel is a pernicious myth. On the contrary, a bad online shop can suck up time like a Hoover.

You leave bad physical shops and don't come back, but you don't leave badly-designed web shops and keep going back?

If you compare apples to apples (keeping out of bad shops, whether physical or digital), I don't see how you can argue that physical shopping takes no more time than online shopping. It's inane.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Of course they do, the difference is that its easier to click away from a website than it is to walk out of a shop

I'm trying to think of a rational basis for this claim. So far I'm coming up with a blank. But then maybe shops are using magnets and forcefields these days.
Leaving physical store: walking multiple steps. Opening door (if it doesn't open itself). Walking through door. Closing door (if it doesn't close itself).

Leaving website: Move right hand maybe 2 or 3 inches. Press down with index finger.

Which of these is more difficult? You seriously can't tell? Good Lord, man, are you dense?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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You can also multi-task internet shopping. Shops tend not to like you stirring supper while browsing their store, or having four tabs up to compare specs and prices on something.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Shops tend not to like you stirring supper while browsing their store...

Shops also tend not to like my coming in to shop dressed only in my underwear.

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The Hebrides have exactly the same postage rates as everywhere else in the country...

We're already subsidising them, and are happy to do so, because they're part of the UK.

And I, for one, am not embarrassed to say "thank you" for that. I just wish some of the entitled arses around here would recognise just how heavily subsidised life here is.

I have noticed, however, that some people advertise things for sale on eBay, claiming to send via Royal Mail, and then claim they can't post to Scottish Islands. It's quite bizarre.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Good Lord, man, are you dense?

Clearly what I said wasn't dense, because you've found ample spaces in it where you could interpolate a whole lot of fanciful suppositions.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Good Lord, man, are you dense?

Clearly what I said wasn't dense, because you've found ample spaces in it where you could interpolate a whole lot of fanciful suppositions.
Ah, that clears it up then.

Twit.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Oh FFS. I really can't be arsed trying to explain to you what the goal of shopping is. You appear to think that the goal is the process, and that if you can back out of the process by clicking an 'x' on the screen then that automatically means the shopping was easier.

[ 31. August 2017, 06:49: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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The comment wasn't about the goal. It was about which takes more time, action A or action B.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:


I have noticed, however, that some people advertise things for sale on eBay, claiming to send via Royal Mail, and then claim they can't post to Scottish Islands. It's quite bizarre.

FWIW, there is a setting on ebay where sellers can auto select places that they don't post to - including the highlands, channel islands and mann.

If one has a range of things to send and a range of postal carriers it might be easier just to say that one doesn't send to these locations, which I agree is a bit harsh to those who live in them.

Personally I've selected several of these because the items are fairly fragile and the risk of damage due to shipment by sea/air is much greater than it would be by road on the mainland.

[ 01. September 2017, 07:58: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Also, if it takes you hours to navigate IKEA, you're doing it wrong.

I can be in and out, with everything I need, within half an hour, and usually less.

(pro-tip - look up the codes on the website and enter the store through the tills)

That's definitely PhD level IKEA shopping... my big mistake is taking kids/spouse with me. That means:

"Can I play in the play area"
"No, we're just going to get a few things"
"Oooo! I just need to nip through the lighting section because I want to replace those lights in the conservatory"

[time passes]

"Can I have a hotdog on the way out?"
"If you stop annoying your brothers, possibly."
"Yaaaay! Hotdog!!!"
"Ooo - I wonder if it's worth getting some batteries while we're here"
"We've just gone past that section"
"I'll nip back; you carry on - I'll catch you up"
"BACKSLIDERLET #3 GET OFF THAT BED!"
"Ooooooooooooooooooooooh [Frown] "

[time passes]

[spouse catches up seconds before I finally brain Backsliderlet #3, the one with ADHD, naturally]

"What width is Backsliderlet #2's bed?"

[mentally search for random information unlikely to be held in /dev/KLBWorkingData]

"Don't know"
"Do you think this [photo on phone] will fit between it and the wall?"
"Probably. Don't know. Hard to tell".
.
.
.
"Did you get the light bulbs?"
"Have I been good enough for a hotdog?"*
"Can we have doughnuts?"
"Can I play in the play area while you're getting the car Daddy?"
.
.
.
.

Or is that just me? I know I'm doing it wrong. Tomorrow we're nipping into Decathlon. That's similar ("can I have this?" "No, we don't even have a bloody horse!"), and what's worse it's on the same retail park as IKEA. I must resolutely resist any temptation to nip in for a few of those kitchen utensil hooks or the morning's toast.

*Given the quality of the IKEA hotdogs, I think they should be threatened as a punishment, but there you go...

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I have to admit, IKEA, 10am, weekday morning, kids at school and wife at work, does make everything simpler.

I do get the "why didn't you tell me you were going?/ We needed XYZ/ You hate spending any time with me*" discussion afterwards. Still worth it.


*I hate spending any time with you in IKEA because it turns you into an over-acquisitive consumer drone determined to fill the house with shiny crap we don't need. A nice walk in the park, or a trip out to the local NT property (with or without gays) would be lovely. But not bloody IKEA.

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Get your arse to Mars

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I have to admit, IKEA, 10am, weekday morning, kids at school and wife at work, does make everything simpler.

I do get the "why didn't you tell me you were going?/ We needed XYZ/ You hate spending any time with me*" discussion afterwards. Still worth it.


*I hate spending any time with you in IKEA because it turns you into an over-acquisitive consumer drone determined to fill the house with shiny crap we don't need. A nice walk in the park, or a trip out to the local NT property (with or without gays) would be lovely. But not bloody IKEA.

[Razz] you actually said this?

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I've been married for 25 years. Speaking truth to power is a necessity.

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Get your arse to Mars

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
To me, the idea that websites "save time" because you don't physically travel is a pernicious myth.

Baloney. I set up a recurring delivery of cat food on the Petco website some time ago. I never run out, and I don't have to deal with a store not having the right kind or not having enough to get me through more than a few days. I get an email before my order ships, and I can add any other pet supplies I might need. I reduce my carbon footprint a little bit, because I make zero trips to the store and my stuff is delivered to my workplace via UPS, which has us on a delivery route anyway. I've saved all kinds of time.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

To me, the idea that websites "save time" because you don't physically travel is a pernicious myth. On the contrary, a bad online shop can suck up time like a Hoover.

Say I need to by a thingamawidget.

I can go online, search for the thingamawidget in the size and colour and purchase the one that fits my need and budget. Average time: 15 min. Maybe an hour if I am really picky about thingamawidgets.*

I can go to shops. Minimum time 30 minutes and that is if the one I want is in the closest shop, in stock and right next to the door.
Now, if you are including the time it takes for the thingamawidget being in my hands to use, then it is possible for the shops to be faster. However, If I do not need it today, I can do other things with my time whilst the item is being delivered.
Plus I can shop the world.

The problem I have with online shopping is that it helps kill brick and mortar stores. I hate killing jobs, I like small shops and sometimes one needs to see, feel, try on, etc. So online isn't my goto option if I can manage otherwise.

*I've taken days and days to make a decision, because of research and/or sourcing. But this would be also done before purchasing from a shop.

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If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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Pigwidgeon

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Small, independent ("Mom and Pop") stores went into decline before Amazon took over the world. Little office supply stores were killed off by OfficeMax (BizMart at that time) and Staples, the local hardware stores succumbed to Home Depot and Lowes, bookstores had to compete with Borders (which did eventually lose out to Amazon) and Barnes and Noble. (These are all U.S. chains, but I'm sure each country has its equivalent, e.g., W.H. Smith.)

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Small, independent ("Mom and Pop") stores went into decline before Amazon took over the world.

They were killed by the big boxes, and in particular Walmart. This is pretty well documented.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The comment wasn't about the goal. It was about which takes more time, action A or action B.

No, actually, we were talking about bad shopping. Whichever WASTES more time is whichever doesn't achieve something.

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
To me, the idea that websites "save time" because you don't physically travel is a pernicious myth.

Baloney. I set up a recurring delivery of cat food on the Petco website some time ago. I never run out, and I don't have to deal with a store not having the right kind or not having enough to get me through more than a few days. I get an email before my order ships, and I can add any other pet supplies I might need. I reduce my carbon footprint a little bit, because I make zero trips to the store and my stuff is delivered to my workplace via UPS, which has us on a delivery route anyway. I've saved all kinds of time.
Wow. So... your success story negates the idea that a bad website can waste a lot of time... how, exactly?

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I can go online, search for the thingamawidget in the size and colour and purchase the one that fits my need and budget.

Aaand here's another person who wants to regale me with a success story of online shopping where they find the size and colour they want.

You all seem to be under the impression that I said online shopping was bad. I said nothing of the kind. What I actually was talking about was that I consider it a myth that online shopping is automatically better.

You know what, folks? I wasted a lot of time and energy this morning trying to figure out across a variety of websites whether I could organise a trip somewhere. I did that online. It would have been a lot less effort on my part to go to a travel agent and leave all the wrestling with options and possibilities with them.

Whether online shopping works better depends a hell of a lot on the specificity of what you want, the rarity of what you want, whether it's the kind of thing you need to ask questions about before purchasing, and so on and so forth.

I've done online shopping that has been quick and easy and simple. I never said otherwise, and all of you lining up to tell me your anecdotes of quick and easy online shopping are completely missing the bloody point.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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You did say otherwise. You said:

quote:
To me, the idea that websites "save time" because you don't physically travel is a pernicious myth.
But it's clearly not a myth -- I gave one example of a website that has saved me plenty of time precisely because I don't physically travel.
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lilBuddha
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orfeo, as RuthW pointed out, and as this quote further underlines
quote:
a bad online shop can suck up time like a Hoover.
you, by any reasonable interpretation, were comparing time and that is what I am addressing.

Better is subjective and I am not arguing that.

If online were not more convenient, and time is part of that, it would not be a cause of the shuttering of brick and mortar shops. And it is.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Boogie

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If you go to the Trafford Centre in Manchester (I never have but I've heard all about it) you will find millions of people who want to waste time shopping. It's a leisure activity for them, they spend the day there.

Yes, I know, baffling madness - but they do.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
What I actually was talking about was that I consider it a myth that online shopping is automatically better.

You might should have said that. What you SAID was:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Of course they do, the difference is that its easier to click away from a website than it is to walk out of a shop

I'm trying to think of a rational basis for this claim. So far I'm coming up with a blank. But then maybe shops are using magnets and forcefields these days.
The claim here by chris stiles was how easy it is to LEAVE a website. You disputed this. You said nothing about quality, or about wasting time.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I've been married for 25 years. Speaking truth to power is a necessity.

[Overused] SoF Quotes thread

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If you go to the Trafford Centre in Manchester (I never have but I've heard all about it) you will find millions of people who want to waste time shopping. It's a leisure activity for them, they spend the day there.

Yes, I know, baffling madness - but they do.

Though it does depend very much on what you want. If you want to buy a specific book, then shopping online is convenient. If you want to see what books might be interesting then nothing beats an hour or two browsing the shelves of a book shop.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Stercus Tauri
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My mother in law hates computers and has just about given up on hers, but she loves Amazon. The system is simple: she calls me - I already have her credit card number - says, "Get me a copy of James Weldon Johnson's "God's Trombones"!" (as she did last week) and within a few minutes I have it ordered for her, 400 miles away in a small town with no bookshops anywhere near. It arrived on Tuesday.

But there are shops and there are shops. The corner store, the village hardware store and the pub are all social media of the kind that don't require computers and passwords to get in. You'll never find me in a mall. Nobody makes fun of my body when I buy clothes on line.

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
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I order books and other items from Amazon, but not clothes. I want to see the actual colors and get an idea of whether a certain style is becoming to me.

Moo

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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I often buy clothes online because retail stores simply don't sell stuff I like.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If you go to the Trafford Centre in Manchester (I never have but I've heard all about it) you will find millions of people who want to waste time shopping. It's a leisure activity for them, they spend the day there.

Yes, I know, baffling madness - but they do.

Yeah, but it's weird; no-one ever fesses up to actually being one of these people.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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