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Source: (consider it) Thread: Campaign for Real News
Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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But presumably now that Obama is no longer president [Waterworks] , the security issues are somewhat less stringent (if that's the word I'm looking for)?

I certainly can't see The Gruesome Grabber refusing a chance to be in the orangelight....

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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L'organist
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But, since Harry is neither heir apparent nor heir presumptive, it isn't going to be a State occasion, merely a royal wedding, so there is no obligation on the royal family to invite foreign heads of state. Of course, some will be there because they are related to HM and her family but others, such as Macron, Merkel, etc, etc, aren't related so won't be invited.

And The Orange One falls into that category.

Or put another way: if the Obamas are there it will be because the family like them, not because he was once POTUS.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The Chapel is indeed a Royal Peculiar, and offers traditional services of a high standard of music and liturgy, which are all open to the peasantry...sorry... public.

I was reflecting that the CofE's (let's say) ambivalence to the marrying of divorcees probably doesn't apply to a Royal Peculiar.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I assume that because they're churches run under the direct authority of the Queen, the usual notes of permission are not needed.

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arse

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BroJames
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My impression is that an interview with the clergyperson officiating in which the considerations set out in the House of Bishops' Advice to the Clergy are taken into account is all that is required in any parish setting.

Legally it is a decision for the incumbent or officiating minister.

In St. George's Chapel, it would presumably be a matter for the Dean of Windsor.

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Bishops Finger
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Ambivalent, indeed.
[Help]

I hadn't realised (shame on me for not keeping up!) that The Sparkle had been married before.
[Hot and Hormonal]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
My impression is that an interview with the clergyperson officiating in which the considerations set out in the House of Bishops' Advice to the Clergy are taken into account is all that is required in any parish setting.

Legally it is a decision for the incumbent or officiating minister.

Mmm. I'm not sure if all that applies to a Royal Peculiar.

Another point is that if this were a parish church, they'd need a special license because neither had been living in the parish.

quote:
In St. George's Chapel, it would presumably be a matter for the Dean of Windsor.
Dunno. I suspect he's appointed by the Queen, so is hardly likely to disagree if she's decided that the wedding is to take place in Windsor chapel.

Anyway, that's all academic - it's happening.

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arse

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Bishops Finger
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Yes, and, as L'organist says, it's a Royal Wedding, and not a specifically State Occasion.

That's not to say that there won't be wall-to-wall coverage for aeons before and after. It's a good job The Sparkle is an actress - she'll need all her skills to keep that smile looking genuine all the time!

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Another point is that if this were a parish church, they'd need a special license because neither had been living in the parish.

I'm pretty sure they'd meet at least one of the qualifying connections.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Bishops Finger
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'Qualifying connections' is such a delightfully flexible term, no?

[Two face]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The Sparkle

Aaarrrgghhh!!
[Projectile]

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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BroJames
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Prince Harry was christened in St. George’s Chapel which is a Qualifying Connection under the Marriage Measure (in the old days it would have been part of the grounds for granting a Special Licence.)
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Bishops Finger
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O dear. Sorry, but she does have a delightfully Cheeky Smile, and Sparkly Eyes, as seen here.

[Two face]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Prince Harry was christened in St. George’s Chapel which is a Qualifying Connection under the Marriage Measure (in the old days it would have been part of the grounds for granting a Special Licence.)

Fair enough, I stand corrected.

I suspect the reality is that the Royal Peculiars can marry whoever they damn well want to marry.

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arse

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Bishops Finger
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All Royals are Peculiar. Goes with the job.

[Razz]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Rosa Gallica officinalis
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Prince Harry was christened in St. George’s Chapel which is a Qualifying Connection under the Marriage Measure (in the old days it would have been part of the grounds for granting a Special Licence.)

Fair enough, I stand corrected.

I suspect the reality is that the Royal Peculiars can marry whoever they damn well want to marry.

As extra-parochial places they can only conduct weddings by Special Licence so they can marry whoever ++Canterbury will licence.

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Come for tea, come for tea, my people.

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BroJames
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Actually under s.21 of the Marriage Act 1949, the diocesan bishop can authorise an extra-parochial place for banns and marriages. Royal Peculiars are, however, not only extra parochial, but also extra diocesan. An Archbishop's Special Licence can of course authorise a marriage at any convenient time or place anywhere in England or Wales.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
An Archbishop's Special Licence can of course authorise a marriage at any convenient time or place anywhere in England or Wales.

As could the Queen as head of the Church -- or am I misunderstanding her powers?

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"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Actually under s.21 of the Marriage Act 1949, the diocesan bishop can authorise an extra-parochial place for banns and marriages. Royal Peculiars are, however, not only extra parochial, but also extra diocesan. An Archbishop's Special Licence can of course authorise a marriage at any convenient time or place anywhere in England or Wales.

So we know for sure that a wedding in a Royal Peculiar requires an Archbishop's license?

If it is extra-diocesan, does it come under the authority of the Archbishop?

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arse

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mr cheesy
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Well. This seems to be authoritative and suggests that an archbishop's license would be needed, but doesn't directly address the question of whether he has authority in a peculiar. But seems to imply that he does - at least in terms of marriage licenses.

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arse

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BroJames
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A couple of digits have been transposed in the link (it has happened to an internal link within the site itself as well). I think this should work. It’s still not entirely clear to me that a Special Licence is required. It would depend, I think, on whether any of them have been authorised for marriages, or possibly have that status by some kind of residual rights quirk.

I think the reason a Special Licence would cover Royal Peculiars is that it is a continuance of what was originally a papal power, and the Pope’s authority would have included Royal Peculiars.

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Doc Tor
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Both links are exactly the same. One of you is an idiot.

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Forward the New Republic

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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Don't rule out the possibility that both are idiots.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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BroJames
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Well hands up here for being an idiot! I’m sure that when I clicked the link this morning I got some sort of page not found message. I obviously misdiagnosed the problem. Apologies to mr cheesy Doc Tor and all.

[ 02. December 2017, 14:26: Message edited by: BroJames ]

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Paul.
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'Twas ever thus. Anyone else reminded of this little ditty from 31 years ago:

quote:
Sex jibe husband murders wife
Bomb blast victim fights for life
Girl Thirteen attacked with knife

Princess Di is wearing a new dress

Jet airliner shot from sky
Famine horror, millions die
Earthquake terror figures rise

Princess Di is wearing a new dress

New Dress by Depeche Mode, from the 1986 album Black Celebration.
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
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As an idiot, I've always tried not to worry about it.

Village Idiot by Python

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Human

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
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4 weeks off-air for erroneous reporting.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
4 weeks off-air for erroneous reporting.

Of course, the Fartletter-in-Chief's reply tweet is a complete non-sequitur.

As for Ross, why at age 69 has he not retired? Surely his 401K is healthy enough to support the lifestyle to which he is accustomed.

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"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

As for Ross, why at age 69 has he not retired? Surely his 401K is healthy enough to support the lifestyle to which he is accustomed.

Why hasn't He Who Must Not Be Named retired by 71? I would assume he has the financial means to do so (but we'll never know since he won't show his tax returns).

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Bishops Finger
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But it's only HWMNBN's orange body that's 71 - his mind is that of a fractious toddler.

[Disappointed]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Why hasn't He Who Must Not Be Named retired by 71? I would assume he has the financial means to do so (but we'll never know since he won't show his tax returns).

Why would he retire? I know plenty of people older than that who are still working, because they enjoy their job. What would he do all day if he "retired"?
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
What would he do all day if he "retired"?

Tweet. Play golf. Be obnoxious.

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"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
What would he do all day if he "retired"?

Tweet. Play golf. Be obnoxious.
You mean just like he does now...

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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L'organist
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posted by Rosa Gallica oficinalis
quote:
As extra-parochial places they can only conduct weddings by Special Licence so they can marry whoever ++Canterbury will licence.
Sorry, but not quite correct.

True, royal peculiers are not covered by the legislation for qualification by residency as in a parish church.

False that the Archbishop of Canterbury can decide: the person who decides what goes on in a peculier is the Dean who is appointed by the sovereign. When, for example, ++Justin does a service in Westminster Abbey he does so at the invitation of the Dean.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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TomM
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Rosa Gallica oficinalis
quote:
As extra-parochial places they can only conduct weddings by Special Licence so they can marry whoever ++Canterbury will licence.
Sorry, but not quite correct.

True, royal peculiers are not covered by the legislation for qualification by residency as in a parish church.

False that the Archbishop of Canterbury can decide: the person who decides what goes on in a peculier is the Dean who is appointed by the sovereign. When, for example, ++Justin does a service in Westminster Abbey he does so at the invitation of the Dean.

I'm no canon lawyer, but unless I'm misreading you, aren't you conflating two questions?

First, there is the question of preliminaries to marriage - for which I would assume Royal Peculiars work in the same way as other extra-parochial places, and thus a Special License issued by the Archbishop of Canterbury (I think for both the Provinces of Canterbury and York, and possibly still for the Church in Wales too).

Second, there is who officiates at the service, which I believe you rightly state is officially to be determined by the Dean.

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mr cheesy
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FWIW, I agree with Tom.

The basis of the Royal Peculiars appears to be that they're not under the authority of any bishop. On the other hand, they're not parish churches and so do not have the ability to issue a general license to marry people.

It seems unlikely that they're ability to marry is dependent on the state registrar system, and therefore it seems that the only other possibility is that they need a special license from the archbishop.

Which seems a bit contradictory - the archbishop is being asked to issue a marriage license within a church which is outwith of his own jurisdiction.

But I can't see any other explanation - unless the Queen herself has a special power to issue marriage licenses. She might well do, but I don't see anything in the legislation saying so.

This seems like a different thing to the general spiritual management of a Royal Peculiar - where bishops and archbishops attend services at the invitation of the Dean and/or whoeverelseisincharge.

In practice this is a bit irrelevant - given that there is clearly very little separating the Royal Peculiars and the senior members of the rest of the Anglican hierarchy in England.

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arse

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BroJames
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Parish churches don't have a power to issue a "general licence" to marry people. I don't think any such thing exists. People can get married in a parish church after banns, by Common Licence (issued on behalf of the diocesan bishop), by Archbishop's Special Licence, or by Superintendent Registrar's Certificate, issued by a civil Registrar under the civil preliminaries for marriage.

I've not previously considered the possibility, but I suppose it might be possible for a person to be married in a Royal Peculiar by Superintendent Registrar's Certificate since the discretion there lies with 'the incumbent', and the civil Registrar isn't AFAIK affected by the questions of ecclesiastical jurisdiction that otherwise arise.

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mr cheesy
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I didn't realise that a Superintendent Registrar’s Certificate was even a possibility in an Anglican church.

The Archbishop's faculty office has this:

quote:
From 2nd March 2015, the marriage of non-European nationals in the Church of England must take place by Superintendent Registrar’s Certificate. (The only exceptions to this are in cases where a Special Marriage Licence is instead required, or where the ‘transitional arrangements’ apply to a particular couple who have previously applied for a Common Marriage Licence.)


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arse

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BroJames
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It is provided for under Section 17 of the Marriage Act, 1949. I'm not sure why it hasn't been a more widely used procedure. There is much less need/demand for it since the Marriage Measure, 2008 came into force.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Is it intentionally ironic that we started with the Campaign for Real News and ended up with a discussion on obscure points of ecclesiastical law that no-one with any sense of proportion gives a shit about?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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When the thread started going that way I wasn't surprised. I've been around the Ship long enough to know there is a sizable group of people who are interested in the minutia of ecclesial law. They do tend to hang out in Ecclesiantics without bringing their obsession onto other boards.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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BroJames
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Mea culpa. Hands up for that. Royal Peculiars are out of my field, but I regularly have to deal with the quirks of marriage law, both in relation to couples getting married in my place, and to queries from colleagues, as well as stuff about Common Licences. Superintendent Registrar’s Certificates OTOH I refer to the Registrar. It’s a bit nerdy, although that’s not generally how it seems to couples planning to get married. I so often meet misconceptions about the legalities from couples that I find it hard to pass them by, even on a ship Hell thread. [Hot and Hormonal]
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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Fun and educational.

Now bugger off, the lot of you.

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Forward the New Republic

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
When the thread started going that way I wasn't surprised. I've been around the Ship long enough to know there is a sizable group of people who are interested in the minutia of ecclesial law. They do tend to hang out in Ecclesiantics without bringing their obsession onto other boards.

And they think Trekkies are weird...

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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The entire front page of France Info is currently devoted to articles about the death of Johnny Hallyday. All 16 main stories. All 16.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17309 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Did he die?

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Forward the New Republic

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
about the death of Johnny Hallyday.

Although admittedly he was rather like Hotblack Desiato in around 2009.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Sorry. I shall rephrase.

Has he died for the last time?

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Forward the New Republic

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Hmm. See here:

quote:
Johnny is dead

But the business is alive and kicking.

if we put castors on it, could we carry on touring?



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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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This one's pretty good too:

quote:
Blasphemy! They've done a cartoon of the Prophet!!
(More here).

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

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I can’t help feeling wall-to-wall Johnny is what France gets for guillotining its monarchy.

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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