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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's business   » The Styx   » Dead horses: a free-for-all for vivisection (Page 1)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Dead horses: a free-for-all for vivisection
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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Louise, one of the hosts, has just essentially advocated the reason why I find Dead Horses fundamentally dishonest:

"So if someone is posting insulting things about a group you are part of or minority you belong to, you can't take personal issue with them here - but must call them to the Hell board to make negative personal remarks about them."

People can write things which are absolutely attacks on my personhood and I have no effective right of reply. This will not do.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Well surely you could reply, "bigoted evangelical Christians generally fail to account for the context of the Molech cult in relationship to the specific verses" or similar. Whilst not saying "you, Gimble, are a bigoted evangelical Christian" ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19194 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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The nature of the Dead Horses board is that some of the subjects discussed will inevitably involve clearly identified groups who will feel attacked by what others believe. There are limits to how personal people can be, and the hosts will call people out when they go too far.

But, you have the choice in responding whether to descend into the sewer or show yourself to be an intelligent and dignified human being. And, there is always Hell if you need to vent.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

Posts: 32183 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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It's the fundamental inequality I object to, which is whence my reference to vivisection. My experience of the board is of being dissected while alive without anaesthetic, and having no effective means of self-defence.

This is the more true since many of those wielding the scalpal make a particular point of never visiting or engaging in hell.

[ 28. May 2017, 16:38: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
It's the fundamental inequality I object to, which is whence my reference to vivisection.

You have one thing that makes you unequal here. Some of us have more. Not that I do not understand your complaint.*
But I agree with the guidelines in that these subjects would be impossible to discuss. And whilst some of the people who makes these comments are irredeemable, perhaps someone reading isn't.

*In fact I have lost my control in regards to this once. Maybe two or twenty times.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17082 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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One last comment and then I'm done, as far as I know so far.

I'm not claiming uniqueness; I think it's a problem that is common to all of the Dead Horse topics, in that they're all personal issues for those with actual experience of them, making dismissal of that experience essentially a personal attack in itself, without being acknowledged as such.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
One last comment and then I'm done, as far as I know so far.

I'm not claiming uniqueness; I think it's a problem that is common to all of the Dead Horse topics, in that they're all personal issues for those with actual experience of them, making dismissal of that experience essentially a personal attack in itself, without being acknowledged as such.

It also happens in purg, for some non-DH topics.
It is not balanced, but I am trying to figure out how to make it so without shutting down discussion. Not saying it cannot be better, but that I don't know how it might work.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17082 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Louise
Shipmate
# 30

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It's a problem which has been back and forth since the beginning of the Ship's boards. Originally C3 was broader and attacking groups/denominations could come under it, IF there were shipmates in the maligned groups.

The downside was that it made arguing about and critiquing other people's churches/denominations/beliefs very difficult - for example, if you critiqued the Catholic church and that personally offended Catholic shipmates, then that could come under C3, and vice versa if a Catholic poster started attacking eg. Southern Baptist or Anglicans or whatever groups, if there were shipmates in those groups then it could come under C3. I can't remember the exact formulation but it was something like 'if a shipmate is a member of group X' then attacking group X could be a personal attack.

But this was found to limit debate - you only needed one shipmate from group X be they Scientologists, or Fred Phelps clan etc and it could put that entire group off limits for critique outside Hell. The decision was made, years ago, not to have the group definition in C3 but only to outlaw personal attacks outside Hell so as not to curb the latitude to critique and argue about issues, doctrines and denominations.

So if someone posts something ignorant about a group eg. Southern baptists or inerrantists or Catholics or women or Scots, or Liberal Democrats, or orchid-growers, the onus is on individual members of that group to reply in general terms or take them to Hell.


The problem is though, that there is a wide-range of Christian belief and that range includes stuff which many people find personally offensive or hurtful. Because what I'd personally see as homophobic beliefs are so common, I can see that it puts a greater burden on gay people as a group than say, on orchid growers or Lib Dems.

The question is whether you want there to be room for the non-Hellish discussion of traditional homophobic/misogynistic ideas or not. If you want there to be room, then people can't go retaliating on the Dead Horses threads to general expressions of conservative doctrine with personal insults. If you think repeating such doctrines and ideas is, in and of itself, a personal attack and Hellish, then there needs to be a re-negotiation of rules with the admins as to when we should ask people to take it to Hell.

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

Posts: 6905 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I would also point out that we have Dead Horses to avoid clogging up Purgatory. Clogging up Hell instead is not really an option I'd want to go for.

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Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8907 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Not that serious discussion doesn't happen in Hell, but I'm not sure DH discussions would be facilitated down there, regardless. It is slightly more satisfying to eviscerate the scum than discourse with them, but it doesn't help with those whose positions are harmful but who do not intend harm and might be amenable to reason.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17082 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I'm not claiming uniqueness; I think it's a problem that is common to all of the Dead Horse topics, in that they're all personal issues for those with actual experience of them, making dismissal of that experience essentially a personal attack in itself, without being acknowledged as such.

Do you have any specific suggestions about changes that would improve the situation?

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Possible solution, may not work, may not be desirable: Two DH's -- one run on Purg rules, and one run on Hell rules.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63200 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

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This isn't a DH-specific issue, although it comes up in DH more often because that's where the gay threads go. We had a fairly involved trans discussion in Purg a while back that at least one shipmate brought to the Styx with basically the same point that ThunderBunk makes here.

My contention is that it is important to have these discussions, and that it's not possible to have a full and frank discussion without some statements being made that members of the group under discussion might find hurtful.

That being the case, I think that those engaging in such discussions have an obligation to acknowledge this hurt and make special efforts to moderate their language.

It's never going to be comfortable having a discussion which a shipmate might view as being about his right to exist as he sees himself, and so those that hold positions that other shipmates will find hurtful (and everybody knows whether they hold such a position) have IMO a special duty to be cautious with their language.

This isn't a perfect solution, but I don't think there is one. Specifically with respect to Mousethief's suggestion, I think there's a place for trying to have a frank and honest discussion about some of these delicate subjects without resorting to mud-slinging and name-calling. I think it's possible, although it does call for a certain amount of restraint by shipmates engaging in the discussion.

[ 28. May 2017, 22:24: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I think it's possible, although it does call for a certain amount of restraint by shipmates engaging in the discussion.

It is possible and it has happened. But it is easy to have someone nominally respect the rules but have the apparent goal of slinging mud. This has happened as well.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17082 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Louise
Shipmate
# 30

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quote:
That being the case, I think that those engaging in such discussions have an obligation to acknowledge this hurt and make special efforts to moderate their language.
I agree but people who will do this are not the problem, what recurs is that we get people who simply don't and won't do that.

We currently put the onus on the people being directly attacked by anti-gay/anti-trans posters to play nice, play by the rules and move to Hell (where they need asbestos undies when they may least feel like it). It is a bit like putting the burden of being polite to racists onto the people who are being attacked by racists. The racist gets to spout off unhindered, the person being denigrated has to obey a complex set of rules and watch what they say in return or they may be disciplined: I can't tell people who show up spouting anti-gay talking points to take it to Hell but I must tell anyone they've insulted not to hit back in kind but to take it to Hell, and must warn them if they don't.

On the other hand, Dead Horses means that people have to deliberately choose to go to a particular board to be exposed to this kind of prejudice so it's not in people's faces all the time if they want to post here and it is a choice to engage. Also if we just sit on people the instant they turn up, it doesn't give them a chance to be exposed to people with different thinking or to debate and have their views challenged or for others to debate with them.

It's worth having the discussion anew as attitudes move on and things change. How much do people value having this kind of space? Have we got the balance of responsibilities for posters right or not? Is there a better way to handle this that we're missing?

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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it's odd this topic should come up now, just as I decided for the nth time NOT to take on those who insist that all pro-life folks are abusive assholes who hate women and want them to die horribly.

In the past I've been fool enough to post that some of us are actual human beings capable of a smidgen of thought and compassion, but it always slid right off the discussion like Teflon. I've given up.

ETA: And God help the person who attempts to say that there exist non-demonic Republicans. Because we're all Trump loving assholes, of course.

[ 29. May 2017, 02:10: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19992 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Sudden thought--

didn't this kind of slippery shit used to get handled by Erin, who would bite the hell out of anybody who managed to slip past the letter of the 10 Cs but was clearly being a jerk nonetheless? That might explain why the ethos of the Ship has changed somewhat.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19992 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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No, it isn't something new and recent. There was someone who was particularly unpleasant about homosexuality a few years back, who was banned eventually after quite a few Hell threads. One Hell thread was so bad, and maybe the related Dead Horses thread, that they were not archived but deleted.


I think that what has changed now is the attitude to homophobia, with churches being one of the final bastions.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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I didn't think (but may be wrong) that the OP was purely about homophobia. As I pointed out, the phenomenon of insulting groups with no effective retribution goes on in all directions. I'm sure it always did, but perhaps not to this degree--it used to be possible to disagree on a hotly contested subject without sixteen people promptly jumping down the throat of one or the other poster and getting away with it. But whatever was keeping that in check is gone, and I can no longer recommend the Ship to any of my acquaintance who happen to be evangelical, Republican, or (God forbid) Trump voters. Even the customary courtesy to apprentices would probably not save them from tarring and feathering. [Waterworks]

ETA: and how the hell is anybody to be converted if the pre-convert is not allowed breathing room while they learn the error (?) of their ways? As various quiet voices have pointed out, you'll never convert a politically/churchmanshiply/ whateverly benighted soul by yelling at them for being so.

[ 30. May 2017, 03:19: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19992 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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We have never had any restriction on multiple people being allowed to voice their opinion - as long as it is within the bounds of the Commandments that apply to any specific board. Other than that, everybody here is bound to face some demographical contingent that aligns with any given philosophy. How those demographics are represented by real humans as a cross-section of old farts who still visit discussion boards is anybody's guess.

But, to pluck a random philosophy out of the eather, it should not be surprising that Nazi slave-owning demagogue-worshippers might find more than a few people who disagree with much that they post. It has always been thus.

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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What I was trying to point out was the imbalance created when a shipmate attacks a personal characteristic from a theological perspective. It constitutes a personal attack but the attacker cannot be attacked in kind.

I really don't see how this maps across to Lamb Chopped's example, and not merely because I would in no way wish to defend any of those positions, believing them to be responsible for much of the organised evil on earth. More specifically and defensibly, it's because these are political positions, and therefore subject to argument and change, whereas the object of the kind of attack I have in mind is a personal characteristic, such as gender, sexual orientation, etc. This gets separated from the person and attacked, which I am trying to point out is really a form of gaslighting because it's predicated on a misrepresentation of its object.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Thank you for making my point for me. Goodbye.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19992 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
and not merely because I would in no way wish to defend any of those positions, believing them to be responsible for much of the organised evil on earth.

Really, dude? When I think you've gone too far, it might be time to rethink your responses.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17082 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
and not merely because I would in no way wish to defend any of those positions, believing them to be responsible for much of the organised evil on earth.

Really, dude? When I think you've gone too far, it might be time to rethink your responses.
Forgive an outbreak of sarcastic hyperbole: right-wing snowflakery is such a shock when happened upon, even in vicarious form.

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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I do think the Ship's active membership has become more homogeneous during my time over the "hot button" issues which are the bread and butter of DH discussion topics. I think all Shipmates benefit from the understanding that people with more conservative views on these issues are not jerks simply because of that. It depends how they argue, how they respond.

DH, essentially an extension of Purgatory, is a venue for serious discussion of issues. If you find opinions being expressed there which you find offensive, that would I think be normal for some Shipmates. But that doesn't preclude serious discussion, unless such opinions put you in to the Commandment 4 situation i.e. some form of personality conflict with the poster because of their opinion.

If that happens to you, that's your problem. Our advice is drop out of the discussion or take it to Hell. That's entirely logical.

And remember the sense in this observation.

"You don't make me angry. I make me angry".

If we wish to participate in serious discussions of issues, rather than venting that we are offended, then we need to put a rein on our anger. That may not be easy, but it is a genuine consequence of the fact that Ship of Fools is a magazine of unrest, but with guidelines to stop that unrest getting out of hand.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20932 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
and not merely because I would in no way wish to defend any of those positions, believing them to be responsible for much of the organised evil on earth.

Really, dude? When I think you've gone too far, it might be time to rethink your responses.
Forgive an outbreak of sarcastic hyperbole: right-wing snowflakery is such a shock when happened upon, even in vicarious form.
There is a lot more nuance in the abortion issue than your comments allow, nor are all the "politics" on one side. The precise outline of why belongs in DH.
tl:dr - I don't think it is snowflakery for someone to feel insulted when you call them evil for their beliefs without knowing how they truly approach the subject.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17082 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There is a lot more nuance in the abortion issue than your comments allow, nor are all the "politics" on one side. The precise outline of why belongs in DH.

Yes. And if debate can be an attack on personhood, then one example of this would seem to be debate over whether a whole class of persons are actually persons at all. The fact that those persons aren't big enough to get on the internet and say that their personhood is being attacked doesn't seem to change the principle.

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

Posts: 2878 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There is a lot more nuance in the abortion issue than your comments allow, nor are all the "politics" on one side. The precise outline of why belongs in DH.

Yes. And if debate can be an attack on personhood, then one example of this would seem to be debate over whether a whole class of persons are actually persons at all. The fact that those persons aren't big enough to get on the internet and say that their personhood is being attacked doesn't seem to change the principle.
Actually, I think it rather does in the context of this forum. Because the unborn are not members, as far as I know and that is what this Styx thread is about: people who post here.
ISTM, LC is incorrect in her post.
A chosen POV =/= inborn attributes. That POV is a debate and discussion by it nature and ramifications. Not at all the same as homosexuality.
My complaint to Thunderbolt was that his reply was a misrepresentation and an over the top, unnecessary insult.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17082 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I can no longer recommend the Ship to any of my acquaintance who happen to be evangelical, Republican, or (God forbid) Trump voters. Even the customary courtesy to apprentices would probably not save them from tarring and feathering. [Waterworks]


(the above has been edited)

This is the vicarious snowflakery I was talking about, not any other posts Lamb Chopped has made regarding her own views, here or elsewhere.

And therewith I return to silence, in re this thread.

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I can no longer recommend the Ship to any of my acquaintance who happen to be evangelical, Republican, or (God forbid) Trump voters. Even the customary courtesy to apprentices would probably not save them from tarring and feathering. [Waterworks]


(the above has been edited)

This is the vicarious snowflakery I was talking about, not any other posts Lamb Chopped has made regarding her own views, here or elsewhere.

And therewith I return to silence, in re this thread.

Apologies for misunderstanding you.

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If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Barnabas62
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Well, Lamb Chopped is a veteran of these boards. Some 13 years here, some 20,000 posts. I'm a 12 year veteran, also about 20,000 posts. I'm not nervous about encouraging folks who are conservative, in faith or politics, than me to try putting their wits.

But I preferred the Ship when it had some powerful wranglers from conservative ranks. Watching Trisagion strike down nonsense (including stuff from me) was a part of my learning curve here. Where are the Trisagion of yesterday year? Has there been some gradual shift in Board Culture to the detriment of diversity and unrest? And if so, why?

These are good questions. I don't have the answers to them. Personally, I always try to be courteous in my posting style, avoid characterisations, jumping to conclusions. You can still be vigorous in serious discussions while doing that. And there's no harm in having firm viewpoints challenged.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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I'd argue that yes, there has been a demographic shift, but one that's overshadowed by the societal shift.

Many aspects of conservative theology are respected and debated - if you want to talk about Real Presence or PSA or the literal Resurrection - then there's no problem. It's when conservative theology collides with liberal society that there's friction.

The society (at least here in the UK) that was okay with Section 28, queer bashing, calling folk 'poofters', denying women equal pay and equal rights and expecting brown people to know their place has gone forever. And the church does, in part, have women celebrants and gay celebrants, and we're used to it.

So to come to a place where someone is using theology to deny your place in the church, or even deny your existence, is going to be a tough call. Conservative posters might complain they're not getting a fair hearing, but I'd urge them to see the other side, and how difficult it is for (example) a gay shipmate to be confronted by someone who, outside of the ship, is saying something that is socially unacceptable. They are the ones that are taking the risk in being here.

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Barnabas62
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I do get that, Doc. From a different context, I can hear Desmond Tutu confronting representatives of apartheid in the police and the military with 'you have already lost'.

Personally, I have no problems in challenging the more conservative folks with 'here are my reasons for thinking you have already lost. What is wrong with them?'

There are reasons, good reasons, for the changes in our culture. So they can be used, counter arguments can be rebutted. You can do that as much as you like in DH - or withdraw, saying 'waste of time'. Maybe these arguments are 'old hat' for many, but not for all. I still think there is value in having a forum where these arguments can be ventilated.

I'll finish with Desmond Tutu's smiling invitation. 'So, since you have already lost - why not join the winning team?'.

There is a value in such self-confidence in discussion. A greater value than simply taking offence.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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lilBuddha
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The difficult part for me is dealing with the people who I am convinced are not engaging honestly. Them, I have no issues dismissing, but keeping the discussion going for those listening who might be persuaded; that is tough.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The difficult part for me is dealing with the people who I am convinced are not engaging honestly. Them, I have no issues dismissing, but keeping the discussion going for those listening who might be persuaded; that is tough.

Precisely. But that's not the fundamental problem. The fundamental problem is the essential asymmetry exemplified by the following exchange: "my theology says that you are" vs "I say that your theology is". One side is always engaged personally, but unable to respond in kind.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

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Erroneous Monk
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There is a lot more nuance in the abortion issue than your comments allow, nor are all the "politics" on one side. The precise outline of why belongs in DH.

Yes. And if debate can be an attack on personhood, then one example of this would seem to be debate over whether a whole class of persons are actually persons at all. The fact that those persons aren't big enough to get on the internet and say that their personhood is being attacked doesn't seem to change the principle.
Actually, I think it rather does in the context of this forum. Because the unborn are not members, as far as I know and that is what this Styx thread is about: people who post here.
ISTM, LC is incorrect in her post.
A chosen POV =/= inborn attributes. That POV is a debate and discussion by it nature and ramifications. Not at all the same as homosexuality.
My complaint to Thunderbolt was that his reply was a misrepresentation and an over the top, unnecessary insult.

I do see your position - that one's view on the personhood of the child in the womb is not at all the same as one's sexuality, though I'm not sure it is a point of view that is "chosen" in the same way as other POVs.

But many people have been in a situation where they have been defending their child's personhood against real threat and I suspect that the idea that this is their "choice" would sit a bit uncomfortably with them.

And odds are some of them post here.

[Edited because confusing]

[ 02. June 2017, 08:52: Message edited by: Erroneous Monk ]

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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Louise
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I think though, that for people who're not gay to say that they don't mind being offended in the cause of making a debate space where anti-gay people feel welcome, and that gay people should ' put a rein on their anger' is a bit like men telling women what level of sexism they should find acceptable. There's a whiff of 'The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.' It involves us assuming from a position of privilege that one size fits all and everyone is affected the same way.

I don't think the position for straight white blokes and straight white women is the same as for people who still have to face really hurtful and sometimes dangerous prejudice in real life.

It's not the Trisagions or even the Gordon Chengs who march up and just bluntly assert that God has spoken and gay people are sinful and anyone who thinks otherwise isn't a Christian/must be deluded/deliberately misreading the Bible to suit themselves. We're not talking about people who offer an intelligent level of argument but of something more akin to crude racism from the world that time forgot. It's more the 'you can't be gay and and an honest proper christian' stuff.

And this sort of thing instantly derails threads and then the only recourse is to sit on the other posters hard and tell people to take things to hell - which is not ideal when you have a new poster. We did formerly enforce the 50 posts convention - not to call apprentices to hell - but that's a lot of derailing and hurt a new homophobic poster can accomplish in that time. Not to mention that they get driven off too and lose any opportunity to learn to engage differently.

I'm not sure what the answer is. I just do see that we are imposing additional burdens on some people but not on others. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of health warning on the DH board - that it gives a measure of safe space for homophobic views as otherwise debate on these topics can't proceed and that people who find that offensive or hurtful might want to or need to avoid the board.

I don't have the answer just a feeling that the societal shift means that the now rare occurrence of a real anti-gay poster turning up* has despite its rarity become trickier to handle. It's rarer but it's also much more incendiary, as it's like asking black people to play nice with a loud-and-proud-of-it white supremacist and then telling them they have the problem when they get upset.


*(at one point back in the mists of time when the Jeffrey John thread was stickered on the front page we were getting them at the rate of several a week)

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
I think though, that for people who're not gay to say that they don't mind being offended in the cause of making a debate space where anti-gay people feel welcome, and that gay people should ' put a rein on their anger' is a bit like men telling women what level of sexism they should find acceptable. There's a whiff of 'The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.' It involves us assuming from a position of privilege that one size fits all and everyone is affected the same way.

I don't think the position for straight white blokes and straight white women is the same as for people who still have to face really hurtful and sometimes dangerous prejudice in real life.

It's not the Trisagions or even the Gordon Chengs who march up and just bluntly assert that God has spoken and gay people are sinful and anyone who thinks otherwise isn't a Christian/must be deluded/deliberately misreading the Bible to suit themselves. We're not talking about people who offer an intelligent level of argument but of something more akin to crude racism from the world that time forgot. It's more the 'you can't be gay and and an honest proper christian' stuff.

And this sort of thing instantly derails threads and then the only recourse is to sit on the other posters hard and tell people to take things to hell - which is not ideal when you have a new poster. We did formerly enforce the 50 posts convention - not to call apprentices to hell - but that's a lot of derailing and hurt a new homophobic poster can accomplish in that time. Not to mention that they get driven off too and lose any opportunity to learn to engage differently.

I'm not sure what the answer is. I just do see that we are imposing additional burdens on some people but not on others. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of health warning on the DH board - that it gives a measure of safe space for homophobic views as otherwise debate on these topics can't proceed and that people who find that offensive or hurtful might want to or need to avoid the board.

I don't have the answer just a feeling that the societal shift means that the now rare occurrence of a real anti-gay poster turning up* has despite its rarity become trickier to handle. It's rarer but it's also much more incendiary, as it's like asking black people to play nice with a loud-and-proud-of-it white supremacist and then telling them they have the problem when they get upset.


*(at one point back in the mists of time when the Jeffrey John thread was stickered on the front page we were getting them at the rate of several a week)

The problem with that approach is that it prevents us from sharing our experience, and in particular bringing our experience to bear in the debate. To my mind, experience is an absolutely legitimate source of data in a theological debate, offered by God and required in debate as a result of the first commandment (OT, not Ship) . If everything has to be theoretical, heart, soul and strength (i.e. body) cannot engage in the debate and the resultant debate is significantly enfeebled.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Louise
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That's part of the problem I'm pointing out - perhaps badly.

Which is why I'm asking the people who favour the current level of protection given to very homophobic posters 'for the sake of debate' whether that is really right and what they are aiming for?

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
That's part of the problem I'm pointing out - perhaps badly.

Which is why I'm asking the people who favour the current level of protection given to very homophobic posters 'for the sake of debate' whether that is really right and what they are aiming for?

I'll leave it in your entirely capable hands. My motive in starting the discussion was simply that your statement of the principle under which you were operating was the clearest I had seen to date and therefore gave a clear opportunity for the discussion. Well, that, and a degree of frustration, I must admit.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Barnabas62
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Louise

As I see it, Admin can already classify persistent homophobia in the same way they classify persistent racism i.e. a Commandment 1 plankable offence. The definition of "jerk" is deliberately open-ended.

That isn't a Host's call. Sure we can and do make our own views known, but so long as the diversity of Shipmates includes some homophobes, or Shipmates others see as homophobes, then they have the same obligations and freedoms as any other Shipmate. Whatever offence their views may cause.

That's not a 'rich man' speaking to the 'poor'. That's the way things are here unless and until homophobic, or perceived homophobic, opinions make the opinion holders jerks and plankable.

A personal opinion. I'm quite happy to see Admin make that a specific feature of Commandment 1. Frankly, I think it would make Hosting in DH a lot easier. It would probably kill homosexuality as a DH theme. Maybe it's time?

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Carex
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You could, I suppose, require that statements about specific groups be expressed as personal beliefs, rather than statements of fact. So instead of, "All (insert name of group) believe in cacodoxy." posters would instead have to use the form, "I believe all (insert name of group) believe in cacodoxy."

That would affect more discussions than just the Dead Horses topics, however: there are many political and religious discussions that include statements of "truth" that are really just opinion.

Some of us tend to use that approach anyway, but not everyone is comfortable with acknowledging that their view of the world doesn't apply to other people.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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There was a judge in the TV series 'The Good Wife' who insisted that advocates before her always used the phrase 'in my opinion's!

Carex, I think that's always implied in most posts. It can get tendentious. In my opinion, it is incontrovertible that the earth revolves around its axis.

But theological opinions about sexual ethics and fair treatment of different groups, being topics people argue about, do not in my mind belong in the same category as the truth that the earth revolves around its axis.

[ 03. June 2017, 06:00: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
There was a judge in the TV series 'The Good Wife' who insisted that advocates before her always used the phrase 'in my opinion's!

But a judge is never interested in my opinion, but in what my submission is in a particular case. My opinion, and that of any other advocate, is irrelevant.

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Barnabas62
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It was when advocates were making submissions on a point of law, Gee D. Plus The Good Wife, being US drama, might do all sorts of things for dramatic effect. Like, for example in UK drama, many Judge John Deed scenes.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It was when advocates were making submissions on a point of law, Gee D. Plus The Good Wife, being US drama, might do all sorts of things for dramatic effect. Like, for example in UK drama, many Judge John Deed scenes.

Even then, a judge is not interested in my opinions, but on my submissions.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Barnabas62
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OK! My point was that in the SoF context, what people express are personal opinions on issues, whether they say so or not, or claim a degree of certainty for their opinion which may, or may not, be justified.

Wrangling over opinions is what we do.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
That's part of the problem I'm pointing out - perhaps badly.

Which is why I'm asking the people who favour the current level of protection given to very homophobic posters 'for the sake of debate' whether that is really right and what they are aiming for?

I don't see how we can lower the level of protection without eliminating the debate altogether.
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Barnabas62
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True, RuthW. I think that's what I've been saying, a different way. In this context, what is a jerk?

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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It seems to me we've already decided that we don't debate whether black people are really people any more: out-and-out racism is (more or less) unacceptable anywhere on the boards, including DH, and is generally considered a C1 violation.

Perhaps it's time to send the more egregious examples of homophobic argument to the dustbin of history.

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