homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Ecclesiantics   » When Christmas Eve is a Sunday (Page 3)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: When Christmas Eve is a Sunday
churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
# 5557

 - Posted      Profile for churchgeek   Author's homepage   Email churchgeek   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I grew up in the Assemblies of God (a Pentecostal, Evangelical, sometimes approaching Fundamentalist denomination). In that denomination, at least in the churches I was familiar with in Southeast Michigan, services were on Sunday. Most of the time, Christmas fell during the week, and there wasn't a church service the day of or the night before. I suspect that was too Catholic or something. But that's also a tradition that is more like the secular culture in that it's all Christmas carols leading up to Christmas...and the actual holiday is about family - you should spend it with your family, not go to church!

OK, so I'm Episcopalian now, and being fairly catholic, we would never contemplate not having Mass on a Sunday morning OR not having Mass on Christmas Eve and Christmas morning! Or singing Christmas carols before the sun goes down on December 24th.

The main reason I don't have whiplash is that I spent about a decade between leaving the A/G and joining TEC. [Razz]

--------------------
I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

Posts: 7667 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
keibat
Shipmate
# 5287

 - Posted      Profile for keibat   Email keibat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
k-mann skrev: sorry, wrote:
quote:
this is also called a Service of the Word in Norway
...and it is essentially identical with the Sanajumalanpalvelus, i e Service of the Word, in the Church of Finland – and with the Antecommunion formerly found in C of E liturgies, i e it's the Liturgy of the Word without the Liturgy of the Sacrament. (I have an unreliable recollection of attending one on a Good Friday in the bad old days.) Services of the Word in the C of E are much more flexible, and not tied to the sequence of components in the Eucharistic liturgy.

--------------------
keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim

Posts: 84 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks for the explanations, gentlemen.

Yes, indeed - 'A Service Of The Word' is rather more flexible these days than the old Ante-Communion.

(BTW, Charles Wesley was an Anglican...and many of his hymns are still in the repertoire).

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 9157 | From: Passing The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Charles was of course an Anglican, but not in good standing with his denomination back in the day. His work aided the cause of schism, after all.

But in the long run the CofE is good at absorbing all kinds of influences, even from dubious sources. In due course, it's likely to swallow up whole denominations.

Talking of which, I wonder how common it is for churches to hold ecumenical services at Christmastime. It would be a good solution for a a couple of neighbouring congregations that don't want to hold four services two days in a row if the turnout is unlikely to be high.

[ 03. November 2017, 22:22: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posts: 6424 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We did hold a joint Carol Service a few years ago with our local Baptist church (they meet on Sundays in a nearby Community Centre).

The service was well-received, with lessons read, and music/songs provided, by people from both congregations, and a super homily from the Baptist minister.

Alas, for various reasons (inertia on the part of our dear Father F**kwit being one), the service was a one-off. So far - next year, perhaps, we'll have another go!

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 9157 | From: Passing The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490

 - Posted      Profile for k-mann   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If I had the choice I would have Nine Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve. We had it in my parish in Bergen, Norway (when I was a student), on the fourth Sunday of Advent.

--------------------
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich

Katolikken

Posts: 1305 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745

 - Posted      Profile for Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Email Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
If I had the choice I would have Nine Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve. We had it in my parish in Bergen, Norway (when I was a student), on the fourth Sunday of Advent.

But this year, Christmas Eve and Advent IV are one and the same day.
Posts: 1919 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Perhaps k-mann meant that he'd like one of his Christmas Eve services to have a 'Nine Lessons etc.' format, rather than the usual Service of the Word?

I sometimes think that the C of E is fortunate in having so many seasonal options, not only for the main Eucharist, but also for arranging 'one-off' services.

In previous years at Our Place we've had an Advent Sunday evening penitential liturgy (based on the O Antiphons), a Christingle Service attended by our Scouts/Cubs/Beavers as an 'end-of-term' activity, a 'Six Lessons and Carols' service, and a simple Crib Service - all produced 'in house' from Common Worship material, and all lay-led.

We're omitting the Advent Sunday evening service this year, but otherwise it's business as usual (and we do offer Midnight Mass and Christmas morning Mass, too).

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 9157 | From: Passing The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490

 - Posted      Profile for k-mann   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
If I had the choice I would have Nine Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve. We had it in my parish in Bergen, Norway (when I was a student), on the fourth Sunday of Advent.

But this year, Christmas Eve and Advent IV are one and the same day.
But Christmas Eve takes precedence in practice, at least in Norway. If we had cut out the Christmas Eve celebration and had a celebration of the Fourth Sunday of Advent, we would never hear the end of it. It's also a question of the size of the parish. My largest parish has 2500 members. My smallest has 170.

--------------------
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich

Katolikken

Posts: 1305 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
verity
Apprentice
# 18571

 - Posted      Profile for verity   Email verity   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We have always done 10am eucharist as normal.
If Christmas Eve is on a Sunday, the 9 Lessons and Carols service is the previous week, the 17th, so the services on Christmas Eve will be

10am Sunday Eucharist
11:30pm Midnight Mass

Posts: 19 | From: Kent | Registered: Mar 2016  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The trouble with 9 Lessons & Carols on Christmas Eve is that (a) there is the broadcast from King's College, Cambridge, at 3 which many of those likely to go to a church service will listen to; and (b) in an average parish its a big ask to get the choir out to do a carol service at, say, 6pm and then back again for Midnight Mass, and again on Christmas Day. Sure, if you have a big enough choir you can maybe cope with some absences at either Midnight or on Christmas Day but in smaller choirs this is not an option.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4680 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And - as I suggested above - it's very likely that some of your most gifted choristers will have absconded to the land of Away, especially this year with Christmas Day falling on a Monday.

Years ago we used to go to Midnight Service at a London church with a fine musical tradition (my wife taught at its school). Each year the Director of Music essayed a service setting by Victoria. It should have been lovely - but, with the depleted forces at his disposal, it never was. [Frown]

Posts: 9408 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
kingsfold

Shipmate
# 1726

 - Posted      Profile for kingsfold   Email kingsfold   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
posted by L'organist:
its a big ask to get the choir out to do a carol service at, say, 6pm and then back again for Midnight Mass, and again on Christmas Day.

Indeed. And yet that is what we are asked to do. Each year (except it's 6.30pm). The junior choristers are also asked to be at the crib service at 4pm, though not at midnight (older ones may come if they wish) and are all asked to be there on Christmas morning. The adult choristers are asked to be there for everything except the crib service.

Admittedly we are a Cathedral, but we are a voluntary, non-professional choir. And this year adults are also asked to be there for the Advent 4 Eucharist. It is VERY big ask.

[ 07. November 2017, 13:39: Message edited by: kingsfold ]

Posts: 4450 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And - dare I say - some (paid) Directors of Music may be so focussed on "what needs to be done" that they forget you are volunteers and have other things you wish to do over Christmas. So may members of the congregation who just "assume" that the choir will do their thing.

[ 07. November 2017, 15:05: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posts: 9408 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745

 - Posted      Profile for Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Email Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
If I had the choice I would have Nine Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve. We had it in my parish in Bergen, Norway (when I was a student), on the fourth Sunday of Advent.

But this year, Christmas Eve and Advent IV are one and the same day.
But Christmas Eve takes precedence in practice, at least in Norway. If we had cut out the Christmas Eve celebration and had a celebration of the Fourth Sunday of Advent, we would never hear the end of it. It's also a question of the size of the parish. My largest parish has 2500 members. My smallest has 170.
With Advent IV and Christmas Eve falling on the same day, I did not say that one supercedes the other. If that is what happens in Norway, then that is up to the Norwegians in their own Country.

What I said earlier on this thread, is that with this year's occurance on the same day, Advent IV should be observed in the morning, with observance of Christmas Eve taking over from the afternoon onwards - that is as far as the Church is concerned. In the secular world, anything goes, of course.

This year, with the coincidence of Sunday date on 24th December, Sunday carol services before Christmas, are taking place on Advent III 17th December, which is the anomoly by living in the 21st century "real world".

Posts: 1919 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490

 - Posted      Profile for k-mann   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
What I said earlier on this thread, is that with this year's occurance on the same day, Advent IV should be observed in the morning, with observance of Christmas Eve taking over from the afternoon onwards - that is as far as the Church is concerned.

Yes, and it would be lovely if I could do so. But I have six parishes.

--------------------
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich

Katolikken

Posts: 1305 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107

 - Posted      Profile for Fuzzipeg   Author's homepage   Email Fuzzipeg   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I am not sure what we will be doing but I am sure we will ditch the 5,30pm evening Mass on Christmas Eve.
I was amused at the comment that there would be absence owing to Christmas Day being a Monday. It's a major problem here and I am sure the same applies in the Antipodes, because it's the middle of the long summer holidays when the lemmings rush to the coast so choirs are always short of members.

--------------------
http://foodybooze.blogspot.co.za

Posts: 911 | From: Johannesburg, South Africa | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
bib
Shipmate
# 13074

 - Posted      Profile for bib     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We have taken to having a choir holiday for all of January. The choir works very hard all year and are entitled to have holidays just like everyone else and Summer in Australia is when most people head for the beach. The members of the choir who are still around tend to sit together in the body of the church and lead the singing from there. I think the congregation is glad when we resume our proper choir role as we receive frequent appeals to do so.

--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

Posts: 1282 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
AndyB
Shipmate
# 10186

 - Posted      Profile for AndyB   Author's homepage   Email AndyB   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The solution is of course Advent IV in the morning, and Christmas Eve in the evening, being after sunset!

We're having our carol service at 6pm on the 24th, and being a Presbyterian church, no midnight service - just a morning service the next morning. I may or may not go to my local parish church for midnight communion - I don't like to miss it, but I may be too tired.

Posts: 148 | From: Belfast | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The lady on one of my PCCs who always complained about there being a service of Holy Communion on Christmas Day in that parish, hearkening back to a time when the church was packed with families for a fun-filled All-Age non-communion service, lasting no more than half an hour, did so again this week.

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7652 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I cannot conceive of any Nonconformist church even thinking of holding Holy Communion on Christmas Day.
Posts: 9408 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
The lady on one of my PCCs who always complained about there being a service of Holy Communion on Christmas Day in that parish, hearkening back to a time when the church was packed with families for a fun-filled All-Age non-communion service, lasting no more than half an hour, did so again this week.

She gets an, IMHO, thoroughly deserved [Projectile] .

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7318 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

 - Posted      Profile for ThunderBunk   Email ThunderBunk   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
The lady on one of my PCCs who always complained about there being a service of Holy Communion on Christmas Day in that parish, hearkening back to a time when the church was packed with families for a fun-filled All-Age non-communion service, lasting no more than half an hour, did so again this week.

She gets an, IMHO, thoroughly deserved [Projectile] .
On her holly-and-ivy tassled shoes?

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2133 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AndyB:
We're having our carol service at 6pm on the 24th, and being a Presbyterian church, no midnight service - just a morning service the next morning.

It may be a pond thing, but midnight (or 11:00/11:30) services are not at all uncommon in Presbyterian churches over here. We’ve had on for decades. Christmas Eve communion is also pretty much the norm in my experience. Our Christmas morning service (not nearly as common in Presbyterian churches over here) is also a Eucharist.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2498 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I cannot conceive of any Nonconformist church even thinking of holding Holy Communion on Christmas Day.

All the free churches along the main road here do.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23060 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Are you sure they're Communion services? I'm thinking of Christmas morning, not "midnight".

[ 18. November 2017, 19:09: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posts: 9408 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711

 - Posted      Profile for Liturgylover   Email Liturgylover   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I cannot conceive of any Nonconformist church even thinking of holding Holy Communion on Christmas Day.

All the free churches along the main road here do.
As do ours with an extra Christmas Day Communion service at 8.30am.
Posts: 451 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools