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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: When Christmas Eve is a Sunday
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
I grew up in the Assemblies of God (a Pentecostal, Evangelical, sometimes approaching Fundamentalist denomination). In that denomination, at least in the churches I was familiar with in Southeast Michigan, services were on Sunday. Most of the time, Christmas fell during the week, and there wasn't a church service the day of or the night before. I suspect that was too Catholic or something. But that's also a tradition that is more like the secular culture in that it's all Christmas carols leading up to Christmas...and the actual holiday is about family - you should spend it with your family, not go to church!
OK, so I'm Episcopalian now, and being fairly catholic, we would never contemplate not having Mass on a Sunday morning OR not having Mass on Christmas Eve and Christmas morning! Or singing Christmas carols before the sun goes down on December 24th.
The main reason I don't have whiplash is that I spent about a decade between leaving the A/G and joining TEC. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
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Posted
k-mann skrev: sorry, wrote: quote:
this is also called a Service of the Word in Norway
...and it is essentially identical with the Sanajumalanpalvelus, i e Service of the Word, in the Church of Finland – and with the Antecommunion formerly found in C of E liturgies, i e it's the Liturgy of the Word without the Liturgy of the Sacrament. (I have an unreliable recollection of attending one on a Good Friday in the bad old days.) Services of the Word in the C of E are much more flexible, and not tied to the sequence of components in the Eucharistic liturgy.
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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Thanks for the explanations, gentlemen.
Yes, indeed - 'A Service Of The Word' is rather more flexible these days than the old Ante-Communion.
(BTW, Charles Wesley was an Anglican...and many of his hymns are still in the repertoire).
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Charles was of course an Anglican, but not in good standing with his denomination back in the day. His work aided the cause of schism, after all.
But in the long run the CofE is good at absorbing all kinds of influences, even from dubious sources. In due course, it's likely to swallow up whole denominations.
Talking of which, I wonder how common it is for churches to hold ecumenical services at Christmastime. It would be a good solution for a a couple of neighbouring congregations that don't want to hold four services two days in a row if the turnout is unlikely to be high.
[ 03. November 2017, 22:22: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
We did hold a joint Carol Service a few years ago with our local Baptist church (they meet on Sundays in a nearby Community Centre).
The service was well-received, with lessons read, and music/songs provided, by people from both congregations, and a super homily from the Baptist minister.
Alas, for various reasons (inertia on the part of our dear Father F**kwit being one), the service was a one-off. So far - next year, perhaps, we'll have another go!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
If I had the choice I would have Nine Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve. We had it in my parish in Bergen, Norway (when I was a student), on the fourth Sunday of Advent.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
If I had the choice I would have Nine Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve. We had it in my parish in Bergen, Norway (when I was a student), on the fourth Sunday of Advent.
But this year, Christmas Eve and Advent IV are one and the same day.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Perhaps k-mann meant that he'd like one of his Christmas Eve services to have a 'Nine Lessons etc.' format, rather than the usual Service of the Word?
I sometimes think that the C of E is fortunate in having so many seasonal options, not only for the main Eucharist, but also for arranging 'one-off' services.
In previous years at Our Place we've had an Advent Sunday evening penitential liturgy (based on the O Antiphons), a Christingle Service attended by our Scouts/Cubs/Beavers as an 'end-of-term' activity, a 'Six Lessons and Carols' service, and a simple Crib Service - all produced 'in house' from Common Worship material, and all lay-led.
We're omitting the Advent Sunday evening service this year, but otherwise it's business as usual (and we do offer Midnight Mass and Christmas morning Mass, too).
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
If I had the choice I would have Nine Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve. We had it in my parish in Bergen, Norway (when I was a student), on the fourth Sunday of Advent.
But this year, Christmas Eve and Advent IV are one and the same day.
But Christmas Eve takes precedence in practice, at least in Norway. If we had cut out the Christmas Eve celebration and had a celebration of the Fourth Sunday of Advent, we would never hear the end of it. It's also a question of the size of the parish. My largest parish has 2500 members. My smallest has 170.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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verity
Apprentice
# 18571
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Posted
We have always done 10am eucharist as normal.
If Christmas Eve is on a Sunday, the 9 Lessons and Carols service is the previous week, the 17th, so the services on Christmas Eve will be
10am Sunday Eucharist
11:30pm Midnight Mass
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The trouble with 9 Lessons & Carols on Christmas Eve is that (a) there is the broadcast from King's College, Cambridge, at 3 which many of those likely to go to a church service will listen to; and (b) in an average parish its a big ask to get the choir out to do a carol service at, say, 6pm and then back again for Midnight Mass, and again on Christmas Day. Sure, if you have a big enough choir you can maybe cope with some absences at either Midnight or on Christmas Day but in smaller choirs this is not an option.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
And - as I suggested above - it's very likely that some of your most gifted choristers will have absconded to the land of Away, especially this year with Christmas Day falling on a Monday.
Years ago we used to go to Midnight Service at a London church with a fine musical tradition (my wife taught at its school). Each year the Director of Music essayed a service setting by Victoria. It should have been lovely - but, with the depleted forces at his disposal, it never was. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
quote:
posted by L'organist:
its a big ask to get the choir out to do a carol service at, say, 6pm and then back again for Midnight Mass, and again on Christmas Day.
Indeed. And yet that is what we are asked to do. Each year (except it's 6.30pm). The junior choristers are also asked to be at the crib service at 4pm, though not at midnight (older ones may come if they wish) and are all asked to be there on Christmas morning. The adult choristers are asked to be there for everything except the crib service.
Admittedly we are a Cathedral, but we are a voluntary, non-professional choir. And this year adults are also asked to be there for the Advent 4 Eucharist. It is VERY big ask.
[ 07. November 2017, 13:39: Message edited by: kingsfold ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
And - dare I say - some (paid) Directors of Music may be so focussed on "what needs to be done" that they forget you are volunteers and have other things you wish to do over Christmas. So may members of the congregation who just "assume" that the choir will do their thing.
[ 07. November 2017, 15:05: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
If I had the choice I would have Nine Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve. We had it in my parish in Bergen, Norway (when I was a student), on the fourth Sunday of Advent.
But this year, Christmas Eve and Advent IV are one and the same day.
But Christmas Eve takes precedence in practice, at least in Norway. If we had cut out the Christmas Eve celebration and had a celebration of the Fourth Sunday of Advent, we would never hear the end of it. It's also a question of the size of the parish. My largest parish has 2500 members. My smallest has 170.
With Advent IV and Christmas Eve falling on the same day, I did not say that one supercedes the other. If that is what happens in Norway, then that is up to the Norwegians in their own Country.
What I said earlier on this thread, is that with this year's occurance on the same day, Advent IV should be observed in the morning, with observance of Christmas Eve taking over from the afternoon onwards - that is as far as the Church is concerned. In the secular world, anything goes, of course.
This year, with the coincidence of Sunday date on 24th December, Sunday carol services before Christmas, are taking place on Advent III 17th December, which is the anomoly by living in the 21st century "real world".
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
What I said earlier on this thread, is that with this year's occurance on the same day, Advent IV should be observed in the morning, with observance of Christmas Eve taking over from the afternoon onwards - that is as far as the Church is concerned.
Yes, and it would be lovely if I could do so. But I have six parishes.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
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Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107
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Posted
I am not sure what we will be doing but I am sure we will ditch the 5,30pm evening Mass on Christmas Eve.
I was amused at the comment that there would be absence owing to Christmas Day being a Monday. It's a major problem here and I am sure the same applies in the Antipodes, because it's the middle of the long summer holidays when the lemmings rush to the coast so choirs are always short of members.
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http://foodybooze.blogspot.co.za
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
We have taken to having a choir holiday for all of January. The choir works very hard all year and are entitled to have holidays just like everyone else and Summer in Australia is when most people head for the beach. The members of the choir who are still around tend to sit together in the body of the church and lead the singing from there. I think the congregation is glad when we resume our proper choir role as we receive frequent appeals to do so.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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AndyB
Shipmate
# 10186
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Posted
The solution is of course Advent IV in the morning, and Christmas Eve in the evening, being after sunset!
We're having our carol service at 6pm on the 24th, and being a Presbyterian church, no midnight service - just a morning service the next morning. I may or may not go to my local parish church for midnight communion - I don't like to miss it, but I may be too tired.
Posts: 149 | From: Belfast | Registered: Aug 2005
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
The lady on one of my PCCs who always complained about there being a service of Holy Communion on Christmas Day in that parish, hearkening back to a time when the church was packed with families for a fun-filled All-Age non-communion service, lasting no more than half an hour, did so again this week.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I cannot conceive of any Nonconformist church even thinking of holding Holy Communion on Christmas Day.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
The lady on one of my PCCs who always complained about there being a service of Holy Communion on Christmas Day in that parish, hearkening back to a time when the church was packed with families for a fun-filled All-Age non-communion service, lasting no more than half an hour, did so again this week.
She gets an, IMHO, thoroughly deserved ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) .
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
The lady on one of my PCCs who always complained about there being a service of Holy Communion on Christmas Day in that parish, hearkening back to a time when the church was packed with families for a fun-filled All-Age non-communion service, lasting no more than half an hour, did so again this week.
She gets an, IMHO, thoroughly deserved .
On her holly-and-ivy tassled shoes?
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AndyB:
We're having our carol service at 6pm on the 24th, and being a Presbyterian church, no midnight service - just a morning service the next morning.
It may be a pond thing, but midnight (or 11:00/11:30) services are not at all uncommon in Presbyterian churches over here. We’ve had on for decades. Christmas Eve communion is also pretty much the norm in my experience. Our Christmas morning service (not nearly as common in Presbyterian churches over here) is also a Eucharist.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Are you sure they're Communion services? I'm thinking of Christmas morning, not "midnight".
[ 18. November 2017, 19:09: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I cannot conceive of any Nonconformist church even thinking of holding Holy Communion on Christmas Day.
All the free churches along the main road here do.
As do ours with an extra Christmas Day Communion service at 8.30am.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
The lady on one of my PCCs who always complained about there being a service of Holy Communion on Christmas Day in that parish, hearkening back to a time when the church was packed with families for a fun-filled All-Age non-communion service, lasting no more than half an hour, did so again this week.
She gets an, IMHO, thoroughly deserved .
On her holly-and-ivy tassled shoes?
How accurate are your projectile skills?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I cannot conceive of any Nonconformist church even thinking of holding Holy Communion on Christmas Day.
Well, it would rather put a damper on things, wouldn't it, starting the day with a memorial of the Master's last sad meal with his disciples ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Precisely - which is why I don't like finishing Easter Sunday morning worship with Communion, either.
By the way, we have decided ONLY to have an 8 pm service on Christmas Eve (plus 9.30 am on the Day).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Precisely - which is why I don't like finishing Easter Sunday morning worship with Communion, either.
So much for the Emmaus story, I guess. Or the eschatological aspects of the Eucharist. Or “This is the joyful feast of the people of God.”
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Nick Tamen, I suspect irony on Albertus's part.
[ 20. November 2017, 01:24: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
You could be right ... though my comment still stands (Emmaus is for Easter Sunday evening by the way).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Nick Tamen, I suspect irony on Albertus's part.
As do I. But I was responding to Baptist Trainfan’s post.
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
You could be right ... though my comment still stands (Emmaus is for Easter Sunday evening by the way).
I come from a tradition that long had a penchant for “celebrating” the Sacrament with funereal solemnity. Much, much work has gone into moving away from that and transforming our practice and our understanding. Some might say that for my particular tribe, this shift in praxis, coupled with more frequent communion/an understanding of the centrality of the Eucharist has been the most important liturgical development of the last century. (One trend I have seen a number of times is to celebrate the Eucharist every Sunday in the Easter season as a way of letting the congregation dip its toes in a practice of weekly Communion.)
With that background, I can understand the perspective that Communion is “inappropriate” for Easter morning. But I think it is a very limited perspective.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
FWIW (and I realise I'm furthering a tangent here), we started ending (if you see what I mean) our main Easter Sunday service with Communion a couple of years ago, instead of having it in a separate, early-ish service. And it works really, really well as a closing to the whole of our Easter weekend services. The way I've approached it is to see it yes as a memorial of the death of Christ, but one that is done in the presence of the living, resurrected Christ who now offers his life to us. We remember his death through the bread and wine; but we also meet with him at the table and receive from him the life he has won for us.
Or something like that.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Yes, I can see that ... but I've gone in precisely the opposite and value the quiet early Communion before the exuberant celebration at the "main" service later on (I realise that calling it that will give the more sacramentally-minded apoplexy, but it reflects reality in terms of the number f worshippers who attend).
Perhaps though we ought to get back to Christmas ...?
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Nick Tamen, I suspect irony on Albertus's part.
You suspect right. But I know that there are some nonconformists- like BT, it transpires- who do see the Eucharist like that, and while I don't share that view, I respect it. So a mild and (intended to be anyway) friendly leg-pull.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
Being in a rented venue (school) that is closed on the basis of giving the caretakers the day off, we get to all visit the fleshpots of "away" and delight in not being on any rota!
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JJ
SDG
blog
Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So a mild and (intended to be anyway) friendly leg-pull.
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Pia
Shipmate
# 17277
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Posted
Rota-wrangler in total denial here about Christmas Eve/Christmas Day.
I need a grand total of 24 'volunteer' servers between 8 a.m. on Christmas Eve and midday on Christmas Day. I'm currently considering kidnapping on a grand scale and only letting people out for their sprouts once they've served.
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Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107
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Posted
I said in an earlier post that I wasn't sure what we would drop but expected little difference despite it being our long summer holiday when the lemmings head for the coast.
Here's the service list....
Sat 23rd 17,30 Holy Mass
Sunday 24th Advent 4 Mass at 7,00. 8,15. 10,00, 11,45.
First Mass of Christmas 17,30 (Special Mass for children plus Blessing of the Crib and bring presents for underprivileged children...stationary, school shoes, or a toy...not wrapped.)
23,30 Carol Singing with Mass at Midnight.
Christmas Day. Mass at 7,00. 8,15. 10,00. and 11,45 (No 17,30 Mass)
We only have one priest but no shortage of servers....and it's the holiday season.
[ 13. December 2017, 17:05: Message edited by: Fuzzipeg ]
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http://foodybooze.blogspot.co.za
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Your poor priest - 11 Masses in three days! I bet he doesn't preach 11 different homilies....
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
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Posted
quote:
Your poor priest - 11 Masses in three days! I bet he doesn't preach 11 different homilies....
Actually, eleven Masses in less than 48 hours!
But at least there is interesting variation within the eleven as we move from Advent to Christmas Eve, with the three sequential lectionary sets for Christmas itself, changes in the Prefaces and odd bells and whistles ...
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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
Posts: 93 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Yes, I was both aghast and also puzzled by that. From somewhere, I was under the impression that each individual Catholic priest is not allowed to offer the sacrifice of the Mass more than once in a day. So, even if the midnight service was treated as a special case, four masses one after the other on the Sunday and then Monday morning would require four priests.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Pastoral necessity can mean more than one Mass on Sundays and even on weekdays. Our pp says three Masses on Sunday and two on a Monday, partly to keep happy the two parishes which he serves.
There is also a long tradition of three Masses on Christmas day. This tradition has now dropped out somewhat,apart from the normal reason of pastoral necessity.
In the olden days Midnight Solemn Mass was followed by two Low Masses celebrated by the same priest.Then in the mornings there would be non stop Mass,well in the larger parishes, as each priest would celebrate one after the other the three Christmas Masses.
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Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107
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Posted
It's really only 9 as a Portuguese speaking priest will do the two 8,15 Masses and he may ask one of the three deacons if they are not away to give the homily though I doubt it as it's Christmas....he may do for the Sunday. though there is seldom a deacon at the 11,45.
11,45 is an extra Mass that was brought in a few years ago as we couldn't cope with the numbers for the existing Masses as the church only seats about 750 and that's also full....at feasts like Christmas and Easter and also Ash Wednesday and Good Friday the service is shown on a big screen in the hall under the church....
The congregation is varied enough in skills to mean that the priest doesn't have to worry about finances, infrastructure, sick communions etc. There are deacons to handle weddings, baptisms and non practising Catholic funerals and the same applies to instruction generally. Obviously he is involved, though.....he doesn't shirk anything.
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http://foodybooze.blogspot.co.za
Posts: 929 | From: Johannesburg, South Africa | Registered: Aug 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well, it's a relief to know that the poor man doesn't have to do everything himself, though I'm sure that's true of most (if not all) large Catholic parishes.
Still, leading all those Masses in a meaningful and devout way is a big responsibility for anyone, so ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) for him, the Portuguese priest, and the deacons.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107
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Posted
It must be difficult to maintain a degree of reverence...you think it's 5 Masses every weekend and obviously at least one every day. I take Holy Communion to the hospital and homes and I find it difficult.
I suppose we are lucky as we have about 5 000 at the Masses over a weekend and there are a number of other Catholic Churches in the area who also have good congregations.
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http://foodybooze.blogspot.co.za
Posts: 929 | From: Johannesburg, South Africa | Registered: Aug 2005
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
In the Orthoworld, the only change when Christmas Eve is a Sunday is that Royal Hours get moved from the morning of Christmas Eve back to Friday morning.
Otherwise, the times and services follow the parish's normal customs for the feast (which vary a bit depending on whether you're Russian or Greek or whatever).
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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