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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Tories are evil!
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ianjmatt
Shipmate
# 5683
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Posted
I have noticed something quite intriguing recently. Many on the political right would view those with left-wing views as wrong-headed, wooly, or just plain wrong and to be argued against at any opportunity. However, some of those on the left view right-wingers as evil and contemptible - witness the easy use of the phrase 'Tory Scum'.
Who is the more tolerant?
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Posts: 676 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Mar 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Well that's an easy question to answer. It's clearly the right-wingers ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Moominpappa
Apprentice
# 12044
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Posted
Surely a few minutes perusing the Daily Mail would answer that question! Both sides can be intolerant, and, working in an organisation where labour supporters are rare as hen's teeth, I've heard many comments about left-wingers that suggest they are 'contemptible' and 'left-wing scum' (especially when there's any form of popular, public left-wing protest in the news).
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Abbot Anthony then asked Abbot Joseph 'How would you explain this saying from the scriptures?' and he replied 'I do not know.' Then Abbot Anthony said 'Indeed, Abbot Joseph has found the way, for he has said "I do not know."'
Posts: 16 | From: Hampshire, England. | Registered: Nov 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I am tolerant. The rest are just bastards.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
It's not symmetrical in that the right wingers in any debate or society are always the ones with power. That is, being conservative or reactionary is by definition to want things to stay as they are.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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ianjmatt
Shipmate
# 5683
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
It's not symmetrical in that the right wingers in any debate or society are always the ones with power. That is, being conservative or reactionary is by definition to want things to stay as they are.
That's not true. There were left-wing governments in power in most of Europe throughout the late '90's and 2000's.
Or perhaps they were not left-wing enough? Not quite the people's front of judea?
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Posts: 676 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Mar 2004
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
But within them there were reformers and hard liners, radicals and right-wingers - whatever you want to call them. Gorbachov was a left-winger compared to Brezhnev.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I had the misfortune to be told by two men in my congregation that I, their minister, could not be a Christian because I had voted Tory.
How is that a reasoned opinion?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ianjmatt:
I have noticed something quite intriguing recently. Many on the political right would view those with left-wing views as wrong-headed, wooly, or just plain wrong and to be argued against at any opportunity. However, some of those on the left view right-wingers as evil and contemptible - witness the easy use of the phrase 'Tory Scum'.
I'd mostly identify with the left, and I think this is a fair critique of UK political discourse. (At least in general terms - I can think of a few counter-examples.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
It's not symmetrical in that the right wingers in any debate or society are always the ones with power. That is, being conservative or reactionary is by definition to want things to stay as they are.
Whether that's true or not (I'm a right-winger, and I don't have any power), it's immaterial to the issue of which side is the more tolerant when it comes to discussing the other.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I had the misfortune to be told by two men in my congregation that I, their minister, could not be a Christian because I had voted Tory.
How is that a reasoned opinion?
Seems reasonable enough to me. Did they try to exorcise you? I probably would have done.... ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ianjmatt:
I have noticed something quite intriguing recently. Many on the political right would view those with left-wing views as wrong-headed, wooly, or just plain wrong and to be argued against at any opportunity. However, some of those on the left view right-wingers as evil and contemptible - witness the easy use of the phrase 'Tory Scum'.
Who is the more tolerant?
If you've gotta ask, you won't understand the answer ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
You see that, Ian? They're not even trying to defend themselves against the charge of intolerant bigotry...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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ianjmatt
Shipmate
# 5683
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You see that, Ian? They're not even trying to defend themselves against the charge of intolerant bigotry...
Indeed. Never has a case been more self-evident ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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You might want to visit my blog:
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Posts: 676 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Mar 2004
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
It's not symmetrical in that the right wingers in any debate or society are always the ones with power. That is, being conservative or reactionary is by definition to want things to stay as they are.
Whether that's true or not (I'm a right-winger, and I don't have any power), it's immaterial to the issue of which side is the more tolerant when it comes to discussing the other.
You may not have any personal power yourself (practically everyone does, though, and in this society, if you are male, white, can speak and write English and have a job, you have a fair amount of power), but the right wing position in any society is that on the side of the status quo.
It's relevant to the OP because those who are seeking to change the status quo will always struggle to be heard and understood, and will tend to sound strident and aggressive, and often a bit immature and whining.
Those who represent the status quo can usually manage to sound sympathetic but regretful. 'We'd really like it if the very rich paid more tax, of course we would, but sadly they'll just all leave the country if we don't cut their rates.'
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
It's not symmetrical in that the right wingers in any debate or society are always the ones with power. That is, being conservative or reactionary is by definition to want things to stay as they are.
Er...no. Ever heard of the term 'liberal elite'?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
You may not have any personal power yourself (practically everyone does, though, and in this society, if you are male, white, can speak and write English and have a job, you have a fair amount of power),
I'm intrigued. As a male, white, english-speaking employed person what is this power that I have?
Note that power isn't the same as privilege or wealth.
quote:
It's relevant to the OP because those who are seeking to change the status quo will always struggle to be heard and understood, and will tend to sound strident and aggressive, and often a bit immature and whining.
There's sounding a bit strident, and then there's calling everyone who disagrees with you an evil bastard who should be shot at dawn. This isn't about policies or the rationalisations for them, this is about characterising the opposition as Satan Incarnate.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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ianjmatt
Shipmate
# 5683
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
You may not have any personal power yourself (practically everyone does, though, and in this society, if you are male, white, can speak and write English and have a job, you have a fair amount of power), but the right wing position in any society is that on the side of the status quo.
It's relevant to the OP because those who are seeking to change the status quo will always struggle to be heard and understood, and will tend to sound strident and aggressive, and often a bit immature and whining.
Those who represent the status quo can usually manage to sound sympathetic but regretful. 'We'd really like it if the very rich paid more tax, of course we would, but sadly they'll just all leave the country if we don't cut their rates.'
This is nonsense. For a start, it is circular in logic - you seem to equate being in power with being conservative. Secondly - the history of 1945 - 2010 in the UK shows that left-wing governments have had their fair crack the whip and the same is true in the rest of Europe.
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Posts: 676 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Mar 2004
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
Just to get back to the OP, I'm astonished -- given the level of invective on well known right-wing politics blogs -- that anybody should think that name-calling is the province of the left.
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
It's not symmetrical in that the right wingers in any debate or society are always the ones with power. That is, being conservative or reactionary is by definition to want things to stay as they are.
Er...no. Ever heard of the term 'liberal elite'?
I've heard of the term. Who do you think they are? The cabinet? The Royal Family? The CEOs of the FTSE 100? The House of Lords? Newspaper owners? The 1000 richest individuals in the country?
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
You may not have any personal power yourself (practically everyone does, though, and in this society, if you are male, white, can speak and write English and have a job, you have a fair amount of power),
I'm intrigued. As a male, white, english-speaking employed person what is this power that I have?
Note that power isn't the same as privilege or wealth.
Privilege and wealth are forms of power. You can do things if you have money. You can do things if you have respect and influence. That's power.
Imagine you wanted to raise money for a small business, or get support to start a charity, or rally your neighbourhood to oppose a development. You would have a head start over many people, I expect. That's power.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
This isn't about policies or the rationalisations for them, this is about characterising the opposition as Satan Incarnate.
This is a problem for left wingers. During Mrs Thatcher's premiership (a.k.a. the Reign of Terror) it was so transparently obvious that we were being governed by Satan Incarnate that we just fell back on saying so, and in time forgot why the lying, thieving, steal-bread-from-the-mouths-of-children, trickle-down-economics-my-arse bastards were pursuing some very dodgy policies.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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ianjmatt
Shipmate
# 5683
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
Just to get back to the OP, I'm astonished -- given the level of invective on well known right-wing politics blogs -- that anybody should think that name-calling is the province of the left.
I think you'll fine those same blogs (e.g. Guido Fawkes) are as nasty to everyone - not a right/left thing.
I remember walking to the 2010 Tory conference in Manchester and there was a Unison demo (I think) in the plaza area outside the GMEX (or whatever they call it now). As we walked in - ordinary people - we are called, by the demonstrators who were public sector workers, "Tory scum" "Tory bastards" told to "rot in hell" "we hope you die" the IRA had it right" and similar such charming things.
Nice.
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You might want to visit my blog:
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Posts: 676 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Mar 2004
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Full of Chips
Shipmate
# 13669
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Posted
In terms of UK ruling parties it is hard to argue that the terms "left" and "right" have any real meaning anymore.
"Evil" is a different matter however: Iraq, Afghanistan, cash for questions, dinner for donors, MPs expenses, the press scandal, the police scandal, the banking scandal, ...
Posts: 136 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
You may not have any personal power yourself (practically everyone does, though, and in this society, if you are male, white, can speak and write English and have a job, you have a fair amount of power),
I'm intrigued. As a male, white, english-speaking employed person what is this power that I have?
For a start, you can afford to buy a computer and pay the leccy bills and post stuff about your right-wing views.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
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Posted
I don't think I would ever have thought of calling tories "evil" before the unlamented lady PM, I disliked Fred Teeth for taking us into the Common Market, but I had occasionally voted tory before and at that time might have expected to do it again. The unpleasant Thatcher changed all that : I can no longer think of them as anything but evil.
They call themselves "conservative", but the only thing they seem to want to conserve is priviledge for the rich. Their policies reek of 19th century laisser faire liberalism.
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
It's not symmetrical in that the right wingers in any debate or society are always the ones with power. That is, being conservative or reactionary is by definition to want things to stay as they are.
Er...no. Ever heard of the term 'liberal elite'?
I've heard of the term. Who do you think they are? The cabinet? The Royal Family? The CEOs of the FTSE 100? The House of Lords? Newspaper owners? The 1000 richest individuals in the country?
Blair and Co for starters, who were in power for 10 years and...er...not conservative.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Privilege and wealth are forms of power. You can do things if you have money. You can do things if you have respect and influence. That's power.
I don't have much money though. Enough to keep a roof over my head and enjoy a couple of the finer things in life (which is what I was thinking of), but far short of enough to gain respect and influence where they matter.
quote:
Imagine you wanted to raise money for a small business, or get support to start a charity, or rally your neighbourhood to oppose a development. You would have a head start over many people, I expect. That's power.
I doubt I would, to be honest. Certainly not just because of my colour, sex and employment status.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'm intrigued. As a male, white, english-speaking employed person what is this power that I have?
For a start, you can afford to buy a computer and pay the leccy bills and post stuff about your right-wing views.
That's not power. Power is being able to get people to do what you want, not being able to log on to the internet.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Having grown up as a token leftie in a very right-wing area, I can assure you that those with right-wing views are equally strident and offensive about the left.
The OP, is of course fundamentally flawed:
- it sets up incomplete scenarios, ignoring those on the left who are not abusive to those on the right, and those on the right who are abusive to those on the left
- it fails to acknowledge that sanctimonious and patronising dismissal of alternative opinions by essentially considering the proponents to be retarded and incapable of coherent thought doesn't count as 'tolerance'; it's not really tolerating when you dismiss something as beneath contempt or not worth engaging with, it's just a long-winded and smug way of calling someone "scum" without actually saying it
- in short, like all political posturing, it cherry-picks to make a point that is no point at all, and simply stirs up a ruck to avoid talking about any actual real issue
The real answer of course is that both left and right contain intolerant arseholes as well as people of great forebearance (who may nonetheless still be arseholes, of course).
As most public politics appears to be about childish name-calling and petty point scoring this thread should do quite well, however ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Adrian1
Shipmate
# 3994
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Posted
I'm a card carrying Tory and I wouldn't consider it a compliment to be branded "evil" or "scum." There are, I think, extremists in every party - left, right and centre. However their views are necessarily those of a minority.
Why am I a Tory? Not because I'm particularly driven by dogma or ideology but because I believe in opportunity, fairness, choice, personal responsibility and light government.
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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
Posts: 1986 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Blair and Co for starters, who were in power for 10 years and...er...not conservative.
Some of us would take issue with that.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Just as some would take issue that Cameron is a true conservative.
[ETA - Tony and his cronies did away with vast swathes of the UK constitution, taxed the middle classes until the pips squeaked and spent taxpayers' money like the credit crunch was never gonna happen. None of which is traditionally conservative behaviour.]
[ 29. March 2012, 13:15: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Blair and Co for starters, who were in power for 10 years and...er...not conservative.
Some of us would take issue with that.
Agreed - Blair was a Young Conservative as a student...
Basically, whereas the political barometer was once centered quite effectively, with One Nation Tories on one side (centre-right), and a centre-left Labour Party, we now suffer under a political system where the centreline has moved quite a way to the right, with it almost looking like...
-----(Centre)---Labour--BBC--Liberal---------Tory.
As opposed to
Militant-----Labour--BBC-Liberal-(centre)----Tory.
Sadly with the Beeb almost being live Pravda or RT rather than calling the govt to account...
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Disagree with that analysis - 'liberal' for me = centre-left, which is where Blair etc were
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I've been thinking "what is 'evil' in this context?" for a while. I think otyetsfoma provides that standard leftist view of what 'evil' means here:
quote:
Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
the only thing they seem to want to conserve is priviledge for the rich.
So is evil to be defined as enacting policies that benefit the party's own social group (the rich, in this case) at the expense of the others (the poor, in this case)? And if so, why is the traditional leftist desire to enact policies that benefit their own social group (the poor) at the expense of the others (the rich) any different?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'm intrigued. As a male, white, english-speaking employed person what is this power that I have?
For a start, you can afford to buy a computer and pay the leccy bills and post stuff about your right-wing views.
That's not power. Power is being able to get people to do what you want, not being able to log on to the internet.
That shows how out of touch you are with 'the underclass' - without computer access, you get higher bills, cannot sign petitions, know what is going on in the world apart from the capitalist media.
Influence is part of power - it is one way of getting people to do things.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Psalm 146: 7-9 seems to say because advantaging the poor is God's agenda.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Back to the issue (for once) I can confidently state that, based on what I have seen of people with different political views, the correlation between evil and political viewpoint is pretty much the same, across the spectrum. Despite what Marvin states however, members of the Conservative Party generally have more power, usually through wealth rather than income, and are better able to make other peoples' lives a misery, and are often able to make themselves better off into the bargain.
It is that which drives the left into (sometimes) apopleptic rage, as they recognise the relative impotence of their own position. What baffles many of us on the left (OK, me for a start) is that anyone who is not well-heeled is ever taken in by the trickle-down theories of wealth distribution! FFS, in any commercial enterprise (and the fee-earning parts of the public service too) the value of your work is higher than the amount you are paid! If this were a reasonable margin and transparent then fair enough but it is often neither of those things.
So there we are; the Tories are not evil per se, just skilled at a form of it which is the basis of our economic system.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I dunno; similar feelings of impotence and apoplectic rage were felt by many a SME-owner I know at being (as they perceived it) taxed to the hilt and strangled by red tape by Blair, Brown and Co.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Despite what Marvin states however, members of the Conservative Party generally have more power, usually through wealth rather than income, and are better able to make other peoples' lives a misery, and are often able to make themselves better off into the bargain.
I think you've got that backwards. They're seeking to make themselves better off, yes - but then, aren't we all? And if that means someone else has to be worse off, then that's just a (unfortunate?) side effect - but then, isn't that true of us all as well?
I seriously doubt that any of them deliberately seek out Bond Villain-like to make other people's lives a misery, with making themselves better off as a nice side-effect.
quote:
FFS, in any commercial enterprise (and the fee-earning parts of the public service too) the value of your work is higher than the amount you are paid!
Of course it is. If it wasn't then they wouldn't want to pay me to do it, and my job wouldn't exist.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I dunno; similar feelings of impotence and apoplectic rage were felt by many a SME-owner I know at being (as they perceived it) taxed to the hilt and strangled by red tape by Blair, Brown and Co.
I'm not accusing you Matt, but many SME-owners could feel right at home in UKIP, feeling that Labour is stillpro-union, Tories are pro-big business and that the Lib Dems are still a bunch of hairy sandal-wearers (which as we now know, is untrue, as they all wear suits and are as venal as anybody else at Westminster).
On Marvin's remark about the 'side-efect' of making oneself better off; it's a lot easier for those nearer the top of the pile to do that and make other's lives a misery. Just to be sure could I try for a year just to see how much of a bastard it would make me!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
On Marvin's remark about the 'side-efect' of making oneself better off; it's a lot easier for those nearer the top of the pile to do that and make other's lives a misery.
That is true regardless of the political leanings of those at the top of the pile. All that changes is who suffers, and you can't really blame anyone for trying to ensure that it's not them. You certainly can't call them evil for doing so.
quote:
Just to be sure could I try for a year just to see how much of a bastard it would make me!
Aw, Hell yeah. I'd love to have the chance to get my hands on some real wealth and power. Trouble is, I'd be having so much fun living it up like a fucking king I'd probably forget all about that "deliberately making everyone else's life a living hell" thing. And I call myself a Tory ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
I saw the OP as being more about the asymmetry - the suggestion being that the Right see the Left as stupid - deficient in intellect - whereas the Left see the Right as heartless - deficient in compassion.
We're all human, and self-interest distorts our perception of what is reasonable and sensible and appropriate.
Seems to me that it is not a good thing when one ceases to see those one disagrees with politically as well-meaning fellow human beings whose different temperament and life-experiences have led them to a different sense of what is just, and start seeing them as willing minions of the Evil One.
Given that the gap between "heartless" and "evil" is narrower than that between "stupid" and "evil", the Left is going to be in more danger of confusing left-right with good-evil than the Right is.
But that says nothing about the degree to which the virtue of tolerance (or lack of it) is exercised by any individual on either side.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
In Britain the Left has traditionally thought of the Tories as the Stupid Party.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
In Britain the Left has traditionally thought of the Tories as the Stupid Party.
Really?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Well, Francs Maude's advice on stockng up petrol was more than stupid. It was dangerous.
Pfft. What's dangerous is decanting petrol in your kitchen, while the oven's on. I think the link between the poor lady's accident and Francis Maude's ill-advised comment a few days ago is tenuous at best.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Well, Francs Maude's advice on stockng up petrol was more than stupid. It was dangerous.
Pfft. What's dangerous is decanting petrol in your kitchen, while the oven's on. I think the link between the poor lady's accident and Francis Maude's ill-advised comment a few days ago is tenuous at best.
There is no doubt that this poor woman is a strong candidate for nomination in the Darwin Awards.
However, it should not be overlooked that the ONLY reason for her doing such an incredibly daft thing in the first place was because of the Tories' scaremongering and especially Francis Maude's spectacularly crass "advice".
Had the Tories not generated a fuel crisis (where there was none before), the woman's daughter would have been able to get petrol for her car and the woman wouldn't have been stockpiling petrol in unsuitable conditions.
It really is a simple case of cause and effect...
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
How has this thread got so far without mentioning the Magnificat? Can one of the Tory supporters tell me a single thing the current government or the mastermind who fundamentally distorted British politics, possibly irrecoverably, has ever done to scatter the proud, build up the lowly, or send the rich away empty? The rich get filled with ever tastier morsels, the poor get what they have ripped away from them in the name of "efficiency" and/or "reform", and just about every socially divisive cliche going gets as much support as it can possibly have.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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