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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 103rd Bishop of Chichester
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
No.
I am suggesting that, from what I understand to be his theological position on the nature of the difference between men and women, his theological anthropology is seriously flawed.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
He's an excellent, orthodox, missional catholic.
Worked well with Lucy Winkett and the St Paul's Cathedral Chapter.
He happens not to believe that the CofE should ordain women priests and bishops. That is not, in the CofE, a bar to him being a diocesan bishop. (Even if, as I do, you think he's mistaken on this)
I look forward to working with him in the House & College of Bishops.
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Martin Warner's views on the ordination of women to the priesthood are well known. His justification for them is less well-known and is not orthodox. Yes, he was always perfectly affable to Canon Winkett, though she was well aware that as far as he was concerned she might as well be an extra-terrestrial as far as the Imago Dei was concerned.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
His justification for them is less well-known and is not orthodox.
Would you be so good as to expand?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Sure, albeit briefly: The new Bishop of Chichester regards maleness and femaleness as essential properties. Such a view has major implications outside the Dead Horse Question.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
Correction: he says "what is happening when Lucy stands at the altar, I can say that it is most certainly not nothing,"
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Is neo-Platonist Gnostic heresy! Is outrage!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
+Martyn was a server at our place in his youth, so we are right chuffed to hear of his appointment to Chichester.
He came to us last year to preside and preach at our monthly Mass of Our Lady of Walsingham, but a couple of baptism enquiries turned up that Saturday morning and I didn't get to hear him chiz chiz chiz....
He's a Good Egg, and although I don't share his views on OoW, I hope and pray he'll be a positive force in the C of E in the future.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
Is he willing to appoint a suffragan bishop to ordain women priests?
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
You may be confusing tautology with heresy here. To say something is the essence of itself is saying nothing at all.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Fifi
Shipmate
# 8151
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
Is he willing to appoint a suffragan bishop to ordain women priests?
The $64,000 question, to be sure. But his predecessor took the view that a suffragan acts solely on behalf of his diocesan and therefore - where the diocesan will not ordain women - the suffragan cannot do so either (whether he wants to or not). My hunch - and it's no more than that - is that +M will take the same position . . .
Posts: 591 | From: Here | Registered: Aug 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
But both suffragans were themselves opposed, so the possibility of them acting (or not) against their better judgement didn't arise. Even if such a position is a sensible or tenable one, surely there is no other diocese in the country where it applies. Some diocesans only ordain deacons, and the suffragans the priests. Whether that is a good solution is also debatable, but at least it means the diocesan can maintain an equal relationship with all his clergy no matter what his views on the DH.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
The number of bishops from the liberal catholic and modern church parties is disproportionately higher than numbers of such parishes and there is a parallel resentment to that, often focused on those bishops personally.
I query that. Of course for a long time there were few evangelical bishops, because the evangelical revival took a long time to filter through to the ranks of those eligible. But there seems to be a good balance now. And outside Brighton, parts of London and a few other places there are not many (compared to the noise they make) 'traditional' anglo-catholic parishes: I can't do the maths but I'd be surprised if they were more than 10% of the total. Apart from the 'flying bishops' there are several more who would represent these.
I'm not entiely sure how it works, but is it possible for a liberal 'catholic' bishop to appeal to a greater constituency, and therefre there are more of them?
I have heard it said that a higher bishop can come down the candle and do all that, but lower ones find it harder to go up. Is this true?
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I have heard it said that a higher bishop can come down the candle and do all that, but lower ones find it harder to go up. Is this true?
In my experience, simply not true.
My sending church normally doesn't robe for the main services (i.e. moderately low). I was there for 17 years - we had bishops there most years during that time and I never saw one without robes.
One of the previous ministers of that church became a bishop, and he seems willing to wear chasubles and so on when that is the tradition of the church he is visiting.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fifi:
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
Is he willing to appoint a suffragan bishop to ordain women priests?
The $64,000 question, to be sure. But his predecessor took the view that a suffragan acts solely on behalf of his diocesan and therefore - where the diocesan will not ordain women - the suffragan cannot do so either (whether he wants to or not). My hunch - and it's no more than that - is that +M will take the same position . . .
I never understood how that argument did not also apply to an assistant bishop acting as a commissary too.
My guess would be that +M would allow a suffragan to ordain women priests - and indeed that would be exactly what the selectors were looking for. e.g. +Martin Chichester and +Lucy Lewes?
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
My guess would be that +M would allow a suffragan to ordain women priests - and indeed that would be exactly what the selectors were looking for. e.g. +Martin Chichester and +Lucy Lewes?
I'd love that just to see the look on +Wally Benn's face. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) (though by the time it's likely to happen he'll probably be revolving at high speed in his grave).
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Martin Warner's views on the ordination of women to the priesthood are well known. His justification for them is less well-known and is not orthodox. Yes, he was always perfectly affable to Canon Winkett, though she was well aware that as far as he was concerned she might as well be an extra-terrestrial as far as the Imago Dei was concerned.
Isn't God a major kind of extra-terrestrial - at least before he created the terrestrial bit? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Most clergy of an Evangelical leaning I know struggle with a few things that I think are important for a bishop (priest). Ontological change would be one. The difference between leading a successful church and a en-cultured Diocese would be another. Lastly they tend to struggle to escape the idea that Evangelical worship is the only/best way. There are rarely stupid so intellectually they get these things but emotionally they struggle a bit and sometimes it shows. I also would want to add that I have never know one not grow into deeper understanding and liberal catholics have their own issues (a slight obsession with single issues springs to mind) at least Evangelicals but church growth first.
As for “reasons we don’t agree with women priests” there were only two. The Scriptural one and the “traditional” one, both of which have been debated to death here and elsewhere. Anyone got a link to +M’s thoughts on the matter? I’m intrigued, not least for the novelty but also for a sneaking suspicion that it may be a classic “balancing on the wooden boundary” trick much loved by those who want a foot in each camp.
AtB Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Is neo-Platonist Gnostic heresy! Is outrage!
Is fancy language for the Pork Pie or Potato (thank you John Broadhurst) theory of ordained ministry.
Though, at a guess, I think MW will allow a suffragan to ordain women: he has a strong pragmatic streak.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
I never understood how that argument did not also apply to an assistant bishop acting as a commissary too.
The commissary was acting on behalf of +Canterbury not +Chichester - a sort of flying bishop in reverse.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
I never understood how that argument did not also apply to an assistant bishop acting as a commissary too.
The commissary was acting on behalf of +Canterbury not +Chichester - a sort of flying bishop in reverse.
That relies on the Archbishop having metropolitan jurisdiction over his province. But if he does have that jurisdiction and the archbishop ordains women priests then no diocese within that province can be 'free' of women priests anyway.
Flying bishops are consecrated by the Archbishop in the context of a communion service. They are in communion with the Archbishop - at least to start with.
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Is neo-Platonist Gnostic heresy! Is outrage!
Is fancy language for the Pork Pie or Potato (thank you John Broadhurst) theory of ordained ministry.
Though, at a guess, I think MW will allow a suffragan to ordain women: he has a strong pragmatic streak.
Thank you - now i understand. Mention of John Broadhurst brings back uncomfortable memories about his views on women.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Masha
Shipmate
# 10098
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Posted
quote:
Custard: My sending church normally doesn't robe for the main services (i.e. moderately low). I was there for 17 years - we had bishops there most years during that time and I never saw one without robes. One of the previous ministers of that church became a bishop, and he seems willing to wear chasubles and so on when that is the tradition of the church he is visiting.
I might be wrong (it happens a lot) but isn't it technically against Canon Law to preside without robes?
If so then I can understand why a bishop would not leave his pointy hat at home when in a robe-less church. And also why a previously non-robe bloke would robe up on becoming a bishop.
Besides, a mitre and staff would look pretty daft with a suit I reckon!
[ 07. May 2012, 19:48: Message edited by: Masha ]
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Good for him/her. Wanton disregard of the rules is a form of pride.
Honestly, how and why do people like that get appointed?
[ 08. May 2012, 18:45: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Honestly, how and why do people like that get appointed?
By the diocesan (Messrs. Jobsforthe Boyce)
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes it is against canon law but one of our bishops sometimes conducts confirmations in a lounge suit. One of my evangelical colleagues is outraged by it.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) YIKES!
Those crazy, extreme, English Evangelicals! And a bishop, too, not wearing robes to administer confirmations! By comparison, I'm pretty sure robes are, or tend to be, the standard confirmation gear even for those Evangelically notorious Anglican bishops of Sydney.
At home here in the USA, among the thousands of Episcopal parishes, I'd be bowled over to find even one of them where the bishop was not robed for public confirmations, unless perhaps it was some kind of emergency situation. I'm sure the same must be true for the Anglican Church of Canada and in La Iglesia Anglicana de Mexico 'The Anglican Church of Mexico'.
Of course the national and established Church of England, despite the Pilgrims and the Roundheads, was able to acommodate and nurture Evangelicals of such extreme anti-vestiarian views. Hence, tales of English low churchery that the present day American Anglican/Episcopalian finds so very extraordinary and hard to understand.
The North American history of Anglican extremism, of whatever sort, has been to form spin-off groups or churches that are disconnected to the parent national church. Hard nosed anti-vestiarian Evangelicals have not been seen much around The Episcopal/Anglican churches of North America since 1873, when Episcopal Bp. George D. Cummins took off his robes to found the splinter Reformed Episcopal Church. Cummins took many Evangelicals with him.
By the way, in North American the same type of splintering from the Episcopal Church and Anglican Church of Canada have given birth to black Methodist churches and the many extreme Anglo-Catholic independent churches. That has tended to create a leavening effect.
I guess it can be said that North American Anglican history has consolidated a somewhat less diverse, but certainly solid and centrist ceremonial observance where you can always count on robes, for instance, for confirmation ... Thank heavens!
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
One of our bishops sometimes conducts confirmations in a lounge suit. One of my evangelical colleagues is outraged by it.
Presumably your colleague feels that the suit is far too formal and ought to be replaced by an open-neck shirt and jeans. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
..., tales of English low churchery that the present day American Anglican/Episcopalian finds so very extraordinary and hard to understand.
Its easy. Imagine what the Episcopalians in the USA would be like if three-quarters of the Methodists and half the Presbyterians in the USA were still members of it.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Adrian1
Shipmate
# 3994
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Posted
I read about the appointment of Dr Warner in yesterday's Church Times with horror. Although I have no personal reason to dislike the man, I feel Chichester diocese needs a break from self proclaimed 'traditionalists' whose concept of tradition is epitomised by opposition to the ordination of women and not a deal else. It is one thing for the Church of England to make space for those who disagree (on whatever grounds) with its synodically agreed policies. It is quite another to reward them with diocesan bishoprics.
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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
Posts: 1986 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cedd
Shipmate
# 8436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adrian1:
...whose concept of tradition is epitomised by opposition to the ordination of women and not a deal else.
I don't know Dr Warner either but I suspect that his concept of tradition is a little wider than that.
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Cedd
Churchmanship: This week I am mostly an evangelical, catholic, orthodox with both liberal and illiberal tendancies. Terms and conditions apply.
Posts: 377 | From: England | Registered: Sep 2004
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cedd:
quote:
Originally posted by Adrian1:
...whose concept of tradition is epitomised by opposition to the ordination of women and not a deal else.
I don't know Dr Warner either but I suspect that his concept of tradition is a little wider than that.
Yes, give the guy a break! He is a bright, interesting, and interested man.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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