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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Breastfeeding in University Classrooms
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Why is it only the college professors and ministers who can't cope and require our Christian indulgence?
It isn't. But that's the amazing thing about compassion-- it's not a zero-sum commodity.
You keep avoiding the real question and using it as an opportunity for more self-righteous, holier-than-thou opportunities so I'll rephrase it: Why is it only certain, rare people like this college prof who can't manage child care while the huge majority of less educated, poorer women do manage?
I'm not buying the idea that all the bank tellers and store clerks have left their babies home alone. During forty years of low-income jobs in over twenty different places (we moved a lot) I never heard a breath of any such thing. I think they planned ahead.
Neither do I believe that anyone in the UK or America has to leave their kids home alone to "put bread on the table." Good workers aren't fired that easily. Welfare and foodstamps are out there to be used. Even without using welfare, I've read many articles by financial experts who say that unless a woman earns a certain amount per year she is better off staying home rather than pay for work clothes, transportation and childcare. That was my situation for years. I didn't have a car, or nice clothes so I stayed home and raised my child. This is not a "mommy war" position, it was one of those "put food on the table," decisions that working women always seem to claim for themselves.
Last year, I heard a group of young mothers talking in the local food pantry while waiting to get food. They all agreed that they would rather swallow their pride a little for basic needs than leave their preschool children in questionalbe childcare. Seemed like a smart decision to me.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I apologise for not having read al the posts so this may have been covered. If breast feeding in university classromms during lectures is quite normal, then I also propose masturbating as well.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Clafoutis
Apprentice
# 17275
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
If breast feeding in university classromms during lectures is quite normal, then I also propose masturbating as well.
Won't you find the two functions difficult to perform at the same time ? I mean technically…
Posts: 5 | From: Austrasia | Registered: Aug 2012
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
If breast feeding in university classromms during lectures is quite normal, then I also propose masturbating as well.
You equate feeding a child with masturbating? What a strange notion. At what stage does feeding a child become a normal, social activity?
I think you my have totally misunderstood what breasts are for.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Why is it only the college professors and ministers who can't cope and require our Christian indulgence?
It isn't. But that's the amazing thing about compassion-- it's not a zero-sum commodity.
You keep avoiding the real question and using it as an opportunity for more self-righteous, holier-than-thou opportunities so I'll rephrase it: Why is it only certain, rare people like this college prof who can't manage child care while the huge majority of less educated, poorer women do manage?
I'm not buying the idea that all the bank tellers and store clerks have left their babies home alone. During forty years of low-income jobs in over twenty different places (we moved a lot) I never heard a breath of any such thing. I think they planned ahead.
That's not the question. The question, again, was and is: did this woman, in this job and with these options, make the right choice.
And you are misrepresenting my statements. I didn't say the college prof. "can't manage" child care. She did manage child care. She managed child care in a way that made sense for her particular work situation.
I also never said that most or all working women leave their sick children home alone. Lamb Chopped (not me) said that is one of several not-great options that working woman make when they can't take off work.
The majority of working women take a sick day when their kids are sick. If they have a working partner, often they will alternate. If they have a grandparent or friend who can watch the child, sometimes they'll do that, but that's unusual, as is the more formal arrangement saysay believes everyone should be able to pull out of their back pocket. Usually they take a sick day.
But sometimes a working parent in a particular type of employment will take their sick child to work with them. Not just college profs. but people in all sorts of professions. That decision depends on several factors, including the nature/ seriousness/ communicability of the child's illness and the nature of the parent's workplace/ job responsibilities-- as well as the HR policies at the workplace. It's an option available to some people and not to others, for all those reasons and more.
The discussion here was whether this woman, who had the option both of taking a sick day (and canceling class) and bringing her child to her workplace (giving her students the benefit of her prepared lecture), made the best decision.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
If breast feeding in university classromms during lectures is quite normal, then I also propose masturbating as well.
You equate feeding a child with masturbating? What a strange notion. At what stage does feeding a child become a normal, social activity?
I think you my have totally misunderstood what breasts are for.
haha no - just the public nature of such a thing. A colleague here calls babies 'great big over fed grubs' and actually dislikes seeing them AT ALL in public places and I could just imagine her reaction to such an activity in public - would make her stomach heave. As would someone masturbating of ocurse.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I apologise for not having read al the posts so this may have been covered. If breast feeding in university classromms during lectures is quite normal, then I also propose masturbating as well.
No, that particular angle had not been covered as it is , hmmm, well, mad.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
I've breastfed both my babies, and pretty much in all sorts of situations and all over the place but as a teacher I wouldn't have taken a baby to work with me. For me it would be about taking the child to work - not the breastfeeding though. Happily breastfeed anywhere!
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
A colleague here calls babies 'great big over fed grubs' and actually dislikes seeing them AT ALL in public places and I could just imagine her reaction to such an activity in public - would make her stomach heave. As would someone masturbating of ocurse.
Yes - but she's the one with crazy notions - babies are not offensive at all, they are simply our young.
Masturbating is a private matter, feeding children isn't. If one of the students were hungry and ate a cereal bar - no comment. We eat in front of people, in public. We don't masturbate in front of people, in public.
No comparison.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I have been reading this thread with increasing incredulity.
I remember giving as talk to some students at a conference in 1980 when one of them breastfed her baby - she was prob. 21, i was 29. It started me thinking.
They say that 'breast is best' so it is a natural function. If we believe in equality, then women have a perfect right in the workplace and that includes doing what mothers do.
Now, it is 2012. Are US mores different? Do they not believe in equality? Is a breast somehow profane? Given that half of the population has breasts, is it somehow wrong?
I wonder how people would react if it was the woman vicar breastfeeding during the mass. I, for one, would see deep and awesome theological significance it it.
As for the masturbation thing - the Church teaches that it is sinful. Is breastfeeding sinful?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
But we're not necessarily going to volunteer to help someone who deliberately set out to become a single mother, which of course you can't tell from the fact that someone is a single mother, but it is one of the possibilities.
What a dreadful thing to say! A single mother is a single mother. Two of my friends 'deliberately' became single Mums by AID (Artificial Insemination by Donor) - they are great Mums and the children have grown up to be fine young men.
I think you have a very strange attitude to single parenthood. Reasons for becoming a single parent are many and varied, and shouldn't be subject to judgement by anyone imo.
If they are going to continue to teach their grandmother's to suck eggs, then I am going to be honest about the fact that I'm not going to volunteer to take care of their children when they get sick.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Under the circumstances, I think that's probably a very good thing for all involved.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
The discussion is just going round and round at this point, with most folks just reiterating their previous points. Except for the masturbating thing, which is just ridiculous.
So, a question for those who think this professor made the right choice to breastfeed and teach at the same time: are there any workplace circumstances that you would find inappropriate for breastfeeding? Would it be okay for a woman to breastfeed while preaching? Leading an important meeting? Meeting with a client in a therapy session?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
The writer of Saysay's link has used her little boy's fixation on his sister's father as an example of ... er, something. How other men will serve as a father substitue I guess but it just seemed sad to me.
Also sad, is this article about the high risk of stroke in young men whose parents divorced before they turned 18. I divorced my son's father when he was ten, the next year Newsweek did a huge cover story on the effects of divorce on children and said that boys, in particular, had lots of nightmares and felt that they needed to protect their mothers now that Dad wasn't around. Maybe that's where the excess cortisol comes from.
I think if someone had warned me I would have tried harder to tough out the marriage until my son was grown. How this compares with boys who never had a father in the home, I don't know.
I'm sorry this is off topic but then this thread already is running about five topics so I figured one more wouldn't hurt.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Also sad, is this article about the high risk of stroke in young men whose parents divorced before they turned 18.
If it is any help I could say that this research seems likely to be drivel to me. I've looked on the journal that was quoted by the news story and not found any article that matches the description. I can't find references in any of the usual places to the finding.
In any case it strikes me as a very difficult thing to establish, it would need a huge and very careful study to pin down, and it would be such a major finding that it would be likely to be very high profile in the medical literature if it were done, but I can't find sign nor trace.
Much else I can't be definitive about in this thread, but I think I can say that this particular point doesn't have much factual basis.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
So, a question for those who think this professor made the right choice to breastfeed and teach at the same time: are there any workplace circumstances that you would find inappropriate for breastfeeding? Would it be okay for a woman to breastfeed while preaching? Leading an important meeting? Meeting with a client in a therapy session?
I don't think it is appropriate actually, although my contributions upthread might be read as if I'm on "that side" of the argument. It doesn't make sense in general as I don't think one can really expect to deal with a work-place type of interaction while breast feeding.
It would have been better to cancel the lecture because her child was sick. That's what usually happens.
On the other hand I don't think it is the sort of thing one gets into disciplinary action over, and I think it is particularly ridiculous given that the class was feminist anthropology. I would have thought that the event was a second-to-none teaching opportunity for discussion and debate highly relevant to the course.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
On a related point - correlation doesn't equal cause. I get older the farther Haley's comet travels from earth, but it is due to the passage of time (a third variable) rather than the comet.
If there is any truth to that assertion, there is a good chance it may come down to something like - single parent families tend to be poorer, being poor tends to result in worse physical health (for a load of inter-related reasons) and worse physical health raises your risk of stroke.
Which might go from 1 in 500 to 2 in 500, or some similar change (which a newspaper would inevitably report as stroke risk increases by 100 percent !).
Meanwhile, someone else would do a different study showing that having a been brought up by a single mother slightly lowers you risk of dying in an automobile accident in childhood. (Because you are less likely to have a car, cos you are more likely to be skint.)
These reports rarely give enough context.
I am forever being told this or that factor raises my chance of dying of cause A, B, C, or D.
What I really want to know; is what decreases my chance of long term disability, and what are the main causes of death - which is least unpleasant - and given that how can I change my balance of risk to make it more likely I die quickly of that at an advanced age after a previously healthy life.
I think, for example, I'd rather die of a stroke than Alzheimers or supranuclear palsy.
[ETA crosspost with Twilight and mdjon re stroke risk in children of divorcees.)
[ 15. September 2012, 19:57: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
So, a question for those who think this professor made the right choice to breastfeed and teach at the same time: are there any workplace circumstances that you would find inappropriate for breastfeeding? Would it be okay for a woman to breastfeed while preaching? Leading an important meeting? Meeting with a client in a therapy session?
Yes.
I'm not sure your question gets us out of the loop you're anxious to avoid-- I think we've covered this ground already, but here goes:
As I said, the decision of whether or not to bring a sick child to work would depend on several factors, primarily:
• what other alternatives are available to you
• the financial impact (e.g. whether or not you get sick pay) & how that would impact your family
• the nature/ seriousness/ communicability of child's illness
• the nature of your workplace/ profession (safety issues, etc)
• the HR policies of your particular workplace
Once that determination is made, then the issue of breastfeeding would come into play. I would say that, in general, any place where it would be appropriate to bring a sick child to work it would usually be acceptable to breastfeed. But there would be exceptions, based on the kinds of criteria above.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
[
Neither do I believe that anyone in the UK or America has to leave their kids home alone to "put bread on the table."
Then you are completely out of touch with reality.
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
If breast feeding in university classromms during lectures is quite normal, then I also propose masturbating as well.
Is this offensive crap is a deliberate attempt to derail this conversation even more than it already has been?
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Are wealthy hispanic women, for example, not going to make careless assumptions that everyone has the same resources as them ?
I'm not saying it's impossible or it never happens, but it has not been my experience as a person in the US. Most people of other races still have working class relatives and relatives in other countries. I don't know why (though I suspect it is related to a decline in church attendance), but it's white women (and in particular college professors) who tend to not have any contact with the working class (and sometimes men in general).
I'm just jealous that you live in a place where college lecturers are wealthy. In Britain most of them get a slightly-below-average middle-class wage. Livable (though only just livable in London) but nowhere near wealthy. About the same as a schoolteacher or a police officer. More than a nurse would get, but a lot less than a doctor. And nearly always less than a similarly qualified person would expect in the private sector.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Would it be okay for a woman to breastfeed while... Meeting with a client in a therapy session?
I think breastfeeding in a therapy session would provide you with just an awesome opportunity to mess with your client's head...
quote:
"Baby is with me today so I may lift my shirt at some point to nurse her. Are you comfortable with that?
No? Do you think your discomfort with a woman's breasts may be related to your intimacy issues and your unresolved feelings toward your mother?
How does your answer make you feel?
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) (bet you're understanding now why I'm no longer a therapist...)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Yup.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
[
Neither do I believe that anyone in the UK or America has to leave their kids home alone to "put bread on the table."
Then you are completely out of touch with reality.
Any examples, statistics or proof at all?
I thought the UK had a welfare system in place to keep children from starving to death but maybe not. I have never heard of any American children starving to death unless the parents were abusive and actually trying to starve their children. I'm not saying it has never once happened but if children turning up dead from starvation is a common occurance in these two countries then, you're right, I missed it. You would think the newspapers would be showing us pictures of the stick legged, bloated bellied children just like they do when they live in famine areas. Hmmm, this must be why all our attempts to get our church to send aid to these countries is met by, "No! We have starving children right here in Iowa!"
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
You're technically right. In the US, we have SNAP and other nutritional supplemental programs so that, while many children suffer from malnutrition, few starve.
"Put food on the table" is, of course, an idiom that really means "keep my job so I can support my family". A more technically accurate idiom, at least in the US, would be "keep a roof over our head".
The shelter hosted by my church (open only Nov.-Feb) averages 15 families with young children a night, we turn several families with children away due to lack of space. In warmer weather obviously more would be sleeping on the streets. But not starving.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I went with my work colleagues on our night out to see The Pursuit of Happyness - it was painted as this great triumph over adversity. But our attention was primarily captured by the fact someone was sleeping in an adult homeless shelter with a young child - when the child could have been living with his mother.
I suspect that would be illegal in the UK. (As in the council's failure to house someone in priority need and/or custody should have gone to the parent with accomodation.)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
How would this baby have been fed at that time had it not been sick? I suspect that the health of the baby is a non-issue; the real issue that Pine wanted to make was that she had a right to feed her baby in class. Poor child.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I went with my work colleagues on our night out to see The Pursuit of Happyness - it was painted as this great triumph over adversity. But our attention was primarily captured by the fact someone was sleeping in an adult homeless shelter with a young child - when the child could have been living with his mother.
My recollection of the movie (based on a true story) was that mom abandoned both father and child. Am I mistaken?
Regardless of what was the case there, we have, as I said, more than a dozen families nightly where that is not an option, our shelter is the only thing standing between them and the street. Those who don't arrive early enough, as in the movie, end up on the street.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
How do your local child services / local government get away with that ? Surely they have some statutory due to protect children ?
[ 16. September 2012, 00:03: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
How would this baby have been fed at that time had it not been sick? I suspect that the health of the baby is a non-issue; the real issue that Pine wanted to make was that she had a right to feed her baby in class. Poor child.
I thought that too. But then I remembered that sick children grizzle. A lot. And one way to keep them quiet is to give them the breast. Even the sickest, sookiest child will stop wimpering if its mum does that. So it may not have been a meal, so much as a plug.
I think she was damned if she did, and damned if she didn't. For me, the crucial point is that it was the first lecture of the year. Cancelling would have been probably both difficult and a bad look and kids don't often give a week's notice of Intention To Fall Ill, so you do what you can to manage the situation when it happens. Some times you get it right, sometimes you don't.
I had to take my 15 month old daughter into work with chicken pox one day because we absolutely had to have an affidavit ready for court. My husband was interstate, we have no family in town and no child care worker would go near her. And the court was not going to wait for the affidavit.
I felt bad for her and bad for others at work, but I could not think what else to do in my particular circumstances. We were there for an hour and we went home. No one died. No one got sick. I got a few disapproving looks and felt like crap. But life went on.
[ 16. September 2012, 00:10: Message edited by: Left at the Altar ]
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Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Yes, "put bread on the table" was shorthand for "be able to continue renting our crappy apartment," "be able to pay the heating bill so they don't turn it off in subzero weather," and "be able to buy something better than ramen noodles so that the kids don't wind up malnourished." And if you don't think any of those things happen in the U.S., you are most fortunately circumstanced.
Not all families are eligible for assistance (see "immigration issues"). Not all families that ARE eligible, receive it. We had one family of five where every bloody year the food stamps people gave them the boot as a matter of routine (probably somebody sucking up to the boss--"see how many cases I've been able to close?" though it could have been racism, of course); and every bloody year we wasted forty hours' hard work appealing the decision, and they were then reinstated. That "we" is personal. Not every family who gets the boot off foodstamps/WIC/SSI/whatever has the personal ability to file an appeal (paperwork ho! illiteracy, anyone?) or semi-educated friends who can do it for them. Our friends were lucky.
And yes, they were malnourished. And proud, very proud, so we had the devil of a time finding ways to supplement the children's nutrition without the father cutting ties with us altogether. He used to supplement their diet by occasional fishing (who knows where, we're in a metro area) and thought that was enough protein for growing children.
The eldest stands 4 foot 10 I believe.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
How do your local child services / local government get away with that ? Surely they have some statutory due to protect children ?
In our city (a suburb of LA) dozens of children live on the streets. A few miles away in Skid Row, it's 100s. Child Protective Services will intervene if they feel the child is in danger, but sleeping on the streets alone in L.A. is not necessarily considered "dangerous", since it's warm enough here that people rarely freeze to death. Most families will give a shelter as their address to Child Protective Services and school. But yeah, they will fear losing their kids on top of everything else.
Our city recently decided to shift their resources from providing emergency shelter for 100s of people each night to providing permanent housing for the 10 people identified as most in danger of imminent death in the next 12 month. No families with children made that list since again, death is not usually an imminent danger-- the list was primarily elderly or disabled persons with some other sort of medical condition. I was part of that discussion, representing our shelter.
I understood their logic, but was greatly disturbed by the prospect of the long term effects of a generation of children growing up on the streets w/o even the meager stability of the shelter. We managed to scrape together funding to keep our small shelter open (again, just Nov.-Feb.) for the next few years. I'm hoping to build on our work to raise private sector $$s to open year round and connect to more permanent placements.
This is a much longer answer probably than what you were asking and off-topic I realize. It has been weighing on me heavily the last few months. It was 102 today so no one's freezing to death, but miserable for those w/ no place to come in out of the heat. Heatstroke and/or dehydration are very real possibilities.
[ 16. September 2012, 05:20: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
I just do not understand how people vote for politicians who perpetuate this policy.
(To clarify, I was considering that the government would have a duty to provide emergency housing, rather than that the children should be taken into care.)
[ 16. September 2012, 07:17: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
I'm mildly impressed by her ability to continue lecturing while breastfeeding. From my limited experience of interacting with women breastfeeding, it does not seem to go well with loudly projecting complicated thoughts...
I think breastfeeding in public is fine, as long as it is done discreetly. It is simply common courtesy to give people the chance to look away. Not because breastfeeding is "bad", but because we generally do not want to be involved with the bodily functions and conditions of strangers. Think of blowing your nose, putting on sun protection or shaving. Breastfeeding while lecturing is discourteous to the students who are supposed to pay close attention to the lecturer. They basically do not have the option to ignore this. (It is unnatural to not look at a speaker one is supposed to pay attention to.)
Setting aside the question whether it was wise or necessary to bring the baby to class at all, it is quite obvious what the lecturer should have done: retire from lecturing while breastfeeding. She could have set the students some task to keep them busy in the meantime. She could have instructed the TA to cover some material in the meantime. I think it would have been fine if she had sat down in some corner of that classroom to do her breastfeeding: in public, but discreet. This would have allowed her students to look away.
On a related note, I think the very existence of "feminist anthropology" demonstrates that anthropology has a problem as science. There is no "feminist physics". There can be feminism about physics (and perhaps there should be, it is ridiculously male-dominated). But physics itself cannot be "feminist". If we say that a science itself is "feminist", we are de facto saying that it is so far from true knowledge about its subject matter that it deals in mere opinions (which can be organised into "-isms"). That is not to say that "feminist anthropology" cannot be a valid reaction "chauvinist anthropology", or whatever. It is to say that "-isms" of any kind necessarily debase "-ologies" and "-ics".
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I think the very existence of "feminist anthropology" demonstrates that anthropology has a problem as science. There is no "feminist physics". There can be feminism about physics (and perhaps there should be, it is ridiculously male-dominated). But physics itself cannot be "feminist".
But anthropology is about people. And feminism is about people. If there can be feminism about physicists, there can be anthropology about physicists, there can be feminist anthropology about physicists. You can't sdo feminist physics any more than you can do quantum mechanical anthropolgy, the categories aren't relevant. But feminism is a relevant category for anthgropology.
Also participant study is a huge part of the traditions of anthropology. Who you are and where you are looking from and the clash between your perceptions and expectations and those of the people you are studying is all part of the story. (Unlike sociology or social psychology as well, which is one reason I think anthropology is in some ways a more honest endeavour because it puts personal bias centre stage) Anthropology from a woman's point of view, or anthropology of women, is part of the subject. So its easy to imagine feminist anthropology.
Anyway, I'm British, so my normal use of the word "science" is "natural science". I don't think of social anthropology as a science any more than I think of law or history as a science.
(Irrelevant aside: traditionally British universities teach or taught social and physical anthropology in the same departments. So it is a mixed discipline, like geography or psychology or linguistics - the same students study scientific and non-scientific aspects of the subject.)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I think it would have been fine if she had sat down in some corner of that classroom to do her breastfeeding: in public, but discreet.
You have a good point here - it doesn't take long to give a baby a quick feed, then get on with the job in hand.
I did plenty of breastfeeding in public - but most folk didn't know I was breastfeeding, a strategically placed scarf works wonders.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But anthropology is about people. And feminism is about people.
It does not follow in the slightest that "feminist anthropology" makes sense as a science. Lots of things are about people.
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But feminism is a relevant category for anthgropology.
In the sense that feminism is a proper subject of study for anthropology, certainly. Not in the sense that "feminist anthropology" is meaningful as a science.
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Anthropology from a woman's point of view, or anthropology of women, is part of the subject. So its easy to imagine feminist anthropology.
There is a conceptual abyss between "anthropology from a woman's point of view" and "anthropology of women". The former is a potentially corrupting bias that must be carefully controlled against - which is of course also true for "anthropology from a man's point of view". The latter is an obviously valid field of study within anthropology.
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Anyway, I'm British, so my normal use of the word "science" is "natural science". I don't think of social anthropology as a science any more than I think of law or history as a science.
I quite like the dictionary.com definition, here re-order by me to distinguish two groups:
quote:
science
- a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
- systematized knowledge in general.
- knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
- a particular branch of knowledge.
- skill, especially reflecting a precise application of facts or principles; proficiency.
- systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
- any of the branches of natural or physical science.
Entries 1-5 form one cluster, entries 6&7 another. In my opinion, it is quite obvious that the second cluster is a special case of the first. It may be in practice the most common or at least most prominent one nowadays, and it may make sense to assume that someone means this when saying "science". However, it does not make sense to reject the more general definition, and certainly it makes perfect sense to discuss what anthropology should be in terms of this general meaning of science.
And what it should not be is "feminist", any more than "communist" or "capitalist" or "chauvinist" or whatever...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Setting aside the question whether it was wise or necessary to bring the baby to class at all, it is quite obvious what the lecturer should have done: retire from lecturing while breastfeeding. She could have set the students some task to keep them busy in the meantime. She could have instructed the TA to cover some material in the meantime. I think it would have been fine if she had sat down in some corner of that classroom to do her breastfeeding: in public, but discreet. This would have allowed her students to look away.
fwiw, we don't know that she didn't do that. All we know is that she was there, it was the first day of class, and that at some point she breastfed (and that at one point baby was held by TA and another, crawling on floor).
As we're getting the story, there's lots of points here & there where I'd probably quibble and say she coulda done this & that differently. But that seems like nattering backseat quarterbacking, based on very limited data. It was a difficult situation, she made the best call she could at the time-- again, from the evidence, apparently based on what was best for the students rather than herself.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
A colleague here calls babies 'great big over fed grubs' and actually dislikes seeing them AT ALL in public places and I could just imagine her reaction to such an activity in public - would make her stomach heave. As would someone masturbating of ocurse.
Yes - but she's the one with crazy notions - babies are not offensive at all, they are simply our young.
Masturbating is a private matter, feeding children isn't. If one of the students were hungry and ate a cereal bar - no comment. We eat in front of people, in public. We don't masturbate in front of people, in public.
No comparison.
But as hard as it may be for some people to accept - there are those who dislike them intensely, choose not to have them, and would rather people kept them to themselves.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
[QUOTE]But as hard as it may be for some people to accept - there are those who dislike them intensely, choose not to have them, and would rather people kept them to themselves.
Sure. But we live in a community. Which means we are, by necessity, going to have to face and even interact along side of, people who make different choices than us pretty much every day. Riding on the subway, we're going to have to look at t-shirts with political slogans we disagree with. Sitting across the conference room table is a man sporting a ridiculous comb-over that is truly heinous. Walking to lunch you'll pass a dozen people sporting bluetooth phones talking loudly to seemingly no one. I dislike all those things intensely, and wish those people would keep them far away from me, but alas, they don't.
That's part of living in a community. While there are some reasonable accommodations we can make to avoid offending others, we also have to make reasonable accommodations to avoid being offended. Like it or not, people will procreate, and lactate. Asking you to hold the baby is crossing a line. Asking you to breastfeed the baby would be really crossing a line. Asking you to dwell for a short period of time in the same space as the baby, even a breastfeeding one, probably not. Notable exceptions may apply.
[ 16. September 2012, 22:22: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Asking you to breastfeed the baby would be really crossing a line.
I'd be fairly amused if someone asked me to breastfeed a baby, as I've never lactated.
I think one key thing for me is that the professor was doing something that normally commands attention, while breastfeeding is something that, as IngoB says, we normally look away from. The other thing is that we're still in the midst of a cultural shift from one view of breastfeeding to another, not to mention the seemingly never-ending cultural arguments over women's bodies. cliffdweller has lectured us about having compassion for a woman none of us is ever likely to meet; it seems to me that some recognition that we're all in the midst of these changes would be more helpful.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
But as hard as it may be for some people to accept - there are those who dislike them intensely, choose not to have them, and would rather people kept them to themselves.
One should no expect society to cater to unusual distaste. It is not about accepting everyone's, but about a general level of accommodation. In our debate hear, and in society in general, there are significant groups on both sides. The main issue is prude vs prurient, with a side of distraction.*
*is hyperbole, folks
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
[QUOTE] The other thing is that we're still in the midst of a cultural shift from one view of breastfeeding to another, not to mention the seemingly never-ending cultural arguments over women's bodies. cliffdweller has lectured us about having compassion for a woman none of us is ever likely to meet; it seems to me that some recognition that we're all in the midst of these changes would be more helpful.
Occupational hazard.
We have seemed to have shifted the goalposts a bit. A day or so ago we were assured the issue was not the breastfeeding per se, but the supposed inappropriateness of bring one's child to work. Now the issue seems to be entirely about the breastfeeding.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
I thought this thread needed one more subtheme ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) : the thinning of personal social networks, to the point of disappearance.
The professor in the article seemed to have two choices: daycare (not an option for a sick kid) or herself. That is a sadly common scenario. ISTM a lot of social changes have contributed to this. Deplore or celebrate any of the following, but they seem to be real: - increased presence of women in the workforce. This makes it less likely to have an unemployed neighbour or friend to call upon. Ain't nobody hanging around Wisteria Lane.
- smaller families and greater transience. Thus it would be unlikely to have a big bunch of adult siblings living in close proximity. Aunties and uncles live far away. Neighbours are new and unknown quantities. Friendships are harder to make.
- more single parenthood - means that a partner may not be available to provide care.
- active grandparents - even if they live nearby, they may not be as available because they are employed or travelling.
I'm sorry, IngoB, is that too close to a feminist sociology? ![[Smile]](smile.gif) And yet, if I may, surely this kind of situation must strike close to home to you. Elsewhere you had posted about a move to your current location. If your partner became very ill - and you had to give a lecture you felt was very important - whom could you call upon for emergency childcare? I am guessing that some of the above factors might apply to you.
Given the professor's apparent social poverty - her evident lack of available, trusted adults who could step in - I can't fault her choice in this circumstance. (However, I do think her reaction to the student newspaper was kind of douchey.)
Socially, I feel I am rich as Croesus for these kinds of scenarios... which I can, and have had to, call upon. Oh boy do I thank God on my knees for it. I have lived previously with almost the level of social poverty that the professor seems to bear, so I don't fault her choice in those circumstances.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I think Leaf is onto something there. One thing some of us may have lost as we moved our way up the professional ladder was a connection to community-- the people we can call at 4 am when we have a sick baby.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Actually, I think all the discussion about the poverty of her choices is a bit aside from the point -- if she had fed her child with a bottle, I don't think we'd all be discussing that. It's breastfeeding while conducting class that has excited comment.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
But as hard as it may be for some people to accept - there are those who dislike them intensely, choose not to have them, and would rather people kept them to themselves.
You were one once, do you find that idea distasteful too? Do you think your parents should have kept you hidden from view? Or, if this notion isn't yours - how would those you mention answer my two questions?
[ 17. September 2012, 06:33: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Actually, I think all the discussion about the poverty of her choices is a bit aside from the point -- if she had fed her child with a bottle, I don't think we'd all be discussing that. It's breastfeeding while conducting class that has excited comment.
I wonder if there is a cultural difference here. Does suckling a baby in a public place have a greater yuck factor in the US than in other countries? I get the impression it's broadly OK here as long as it's done discreetly.
Dragging your baby into work with you and insisting everybody else has to share the delight and pride you might feel that you've done your bit for the human species by bringing another into the world, whether he or she drinks human milk, cows' milk or has progressed to mush, can be a bit irritating.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
fwiw, we don't know that she didn't do that. All we know is that she was there, it was the first day of class, and that at some point she breastfed (and that at one point baby was held by TA and another, crawling on floor).
I interpret the following from the article in the OP as indicating that she was indeed lecturing while breastfeeding: "When the baby grew restless, Pine breast-fed her while continuing her lecture in front of 40 students." Again, I think the key point here is simply that it is discourteous to breastfeed while people were basically required to look at her. This has nothing to do with breastfeeding being "bad", but simply with the general principle of being discreet about one's bodily functions. Furthermore, this has nothing to do with how good, bad or ugly the childcare situation for academics might be. It was entirely possible for her to do the breastfeeding aside while keeping the students busy with some task, in particular because she even had a TA present.
However, given that this was a course in "feminist anthropology", my general feeling is that the students got precisely what they asked for in signing up for such a course...
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
I'm sorry, IngoB, is that too close to a feminist sociology? And yet, if I may, surely this kind of situation must strike close to home to you. Elsewhere you had posted about a move to your current location. If your partner became very ill - and you had to give a lecture you felt was very important - whom could you call upon for emergency childcare? I am guessing that some of the above factors might apply to you.
There seems to be a confusion here. "Feminist sociology" isn't simply "sociology concerned with women". The former is at best fighting fire with fire, at worst a corrupting bias destroying the science. The latter is an entirely uncontroversial field of sociology. (I'm not a sociologist, but it is hard to see how one could be active in this science without being concerned with women one way or the other...) Furthermore, concern for the welfare of women, and families, is hardly something exclusive to feminism.
If you ask me, the one thing proper to feminism is that it must make itself superfluous as rapidly as possible. It has a right of existence a socio-political movement that addresses actual grievances at a systemic (rather than individual) level. Its aim must be to remove these problems. Once that has happened, it must disappear, or become a problem by and in itself. Probably and unfortunately, feminism is still necessary even in the West. Perhaps so even in the academe. However, it is one thing to be motivated by feminism to look at some aspect of a science previously neglected due to male dominance and/or negligence. It is entirely different thing to declare that a science can be "feminist" as such. I will never accept the latter as a valid approach.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
fwiw, we don't know that she didn't do that. All we know is that she was there, it was the first day of class, and that at some point she breastfed (and that at one point baby was held by TA and another, crawling on floor).
I interpret the following from the article in the OP as indicating that she was indeed lecturing while breastfeeding: "When the baby grew restless, Pine breast-fed her while continuing her lecture in front of 40 students."
oops... yep, quite right. I missed that.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Actually, I think all the discussion about the poverty of her choices is a bit aside from the point -- if she had fed her child with a bottle, I don't think we'd all be discussing that. It's breastfeeding while conducting class that has excited comment.
Again, the discussion has shifted radically in the course of the last few days. For several days, shipmates were insisting that breastfeeding was not the issue, it was bringing the child to work. Now we seem to be arguing the opposite tack. Almost all of the discussion prior to yesterday was about the issue of sick child care options available to privileged college profs and whether she made the right choice.
I say that only because we'll have to be careful when referring back to things said in the course of that discussion to make sure the context is right. For example, Lamb Chopped's discussion of "loving your neighbor" (which I was castigated for affirming) were in the context of sick child care options, not breastfeeding.
Carry on.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Beethoven
Ship's deaf genius
# 114
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It was entirely possible for her to do the breastfeeding aside while keeping the students busy with some task, in particular because she even had a TA present.
That's quite easy to say from a position of no knowledge of the precise situation. However, a full feed for either of my opuses was around 40-50 minutes. Trying to get away with a 5-10 minute snack was a non-starter - and they'd let me know, loudly. And given that this particular class was the first one of the academic year, I believe, it could be fairly hard to re-write the prepared class to allow for the optional insertion of a significant breast-feeding break while the class gets on with something else.
Personally I can't work out quite where I stand on this. Bringing a sick child to work - not ideal, but sometimes the least bad option. Breastfeeding the child in front of a class - well, it's not something I'd have been happy doing, for sure, but different strokes... If the alternative was having a fractious and noisy baby, then perhaps. And while I'd be happy to say that I feel breastfeeding isn't particulaly appropriate in almost any work situation, the fact that this was feminist anthropology does bring a certain irony to the situation. It's just a shame it got handled so badly and blown out of proportion.
[ 17. September 2012, 14:01: Message edited by: Beethoven ]
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Who wants to be a rock anyway?
toujours gai!
Posts: 1309 | From: Here (and occasionally there) | Registered: May 2001
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