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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Prayer: Just what exactly is it?
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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408
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Posted
Susan, I think we have discussed scientism before, no? John Cleese has an interesting skit on the philosophy here.
Long before Dawkins described faith as "blind trust, in the absence of evidence, even in the teeth of evidence" Christians had understood it differently. If you are talking to a Christian - at least on with a sophisticated understanding of what it means to be a Christian - they wont describe faith as you do. Faith in the New testament is presented as trust (Gk - pistis), specifically trust in God which is based, in part, on evidence - philosophical, experiential, historical, scientific and perhaps others beside.
Forgive me if I am incorrect here but I believe that I am familiar enough with your beliefs to say the following.
You have begged the question when you define all faith as blind faith.Now you might dismiss the arguments an apologist gives for the reasons for why she has faith, but that doesn't mean her case is presented without supporting evidenced. It might just mean that her evidence simply does not move you - and this could be for any number of reasons, some good, some not so good.
It certainly doesn't help the conversation when you offer a definition of faith that you know your opponents will reject. Indeed, it's all quite amusing in light of of the implied certainty behind your fall-back mantra "we don't know yet". If that isn't underpinned by a mixture of faith and hope I don't know what is.
Posts: 1124 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: Dec 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
If someone wanted to ask another how to pray, the reason would be to deepen their faith and prayer-life, wouldn't it?
An assumption that I doubt is always accurate. Perhaps they're in trouble and they want to try and strike a bargain with God. Perhaps they want to know how to say grace at Christmas dinner.
Maybe they want to avoid a trademark infringement suit:
quote:
Dropping to a knee like Tim Tebow might cost you now.
The New York Jets backup quarterback has officially trademarked "Tebowing," the move in which he goes down on one knee and holds a clenched fist against his forehead while praying during games. After Tebow led the Denver Broncos to a series of fourth-quarter comeback victories last season, "Tebowing" swept the country — with actor Robert Downey Jr. even doing it at the Oscars.
New York's Newsday first reported that the trademark was approved last week after paperwork was filed in April.
According to the account in the (Moonie owned) Washington Times the trademark applies to the specific pose (kneeling on one knee and placing fist on forehead) not just the term "Tebowing".
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
Susan, I think we have discussed scientism before, no? John Cleese has an interesting skit on the philosophy here.
Thanks for the John Cleese skit Squibs - I think The Great Gumby would enjoy that! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I used the term scientism for a reason - because 'scientism' is a philosophy, whereby the person believes that science is the only place where mankind can get answers, even to questions which have nothing to do with science.
Thank you. Scientism is a word that I have met only recently, so am wary of using it.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Squibs
I have read your post, for which thank you. Back tomorrow!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
[QUOTE]Yes. The DVD is available, and there's a short book, "Growing Into Silence", which suggests various ways that people can try to get themselves into the habit of spending time with God. The site is here and there's a link on that page called "What is Prayer" which may be useful to you.
I can only say that for me personally, "The Big Silence" coincided with a very dry, dreary time in my life when I was just coasting through life on a day by day basis without much hope. It was like being given water in a desert. It won't be the same for everybody but hopefully some of it may be helpful to you.
Thanks for bringing the book to my attention. Did you see the previous series, I wonder? They also did a flow-up show a year or two later. It was similar concept to the Big Silence but the participants were immersed in contemplative lifestyle for quite a bit longer - 40 days/ nights if I recall correctly. It was interesting to see that withdrawing from the hustle and bustle of ordinary life brought about reactions akin to withdrawal symptoms.
Again, another fantastic programme that was meaningful, cathartic and in some cases brought the participants closer to God.
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:
True, no doubt....but one wouldn't expect an ex-believer to have much to say about an effective prayer strategy.
How on earth do you measure the effectiveness of a prayer strategy?
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I still think SusanDoris and HughWillRidmee are trying to flog a dead horse here. If someone wanted to ask another how to pray, the reason would be to deepen their faith and prayer-life, wouldn't it?
It doesn't matter if it is a life-long athiest or someone who lost their faith later in life (and instead put their complete faith in scientism) - such people will try to drag the asker in the complete opposite direction to what is intended.
So SusanDoris and HughWillRidmee, the question still stands - why do you suppose anyone would ask you to help them improve their prayer life?
I don’t suppose – that’s your territory and I’m content to leave it to you.
Perhaps you would be taken more seriously if you were to stop making assumptions and generalising about people you don’t know?
I responded to the question What do you say to someone who desperately wants to pray, but who doesn't know how? with an honest answer. If someone asks me about any problem in their life I take a similar view – in my experience most people are quite capable of sorting out their own situations once they stand back far enough from their fears/hopes/investments to get a detached view of the problem.
What would you say to someone who desperately wants to pray, but who doesn't know how? if that person were a muslim or a hindu?
To discourage you from repeating your irrelevant question -
1- I don’t know every reason why someone would ask for assistance with how to pray – and nor do you.
2- I don’t always wear my “Good without God” badge (literally and/or figuratively)- I’m not burdened by the great commission.
3- People might assume that my upbringing would enable me to be helpful.
4- I can envisage situations where I, as a humanist, would put concern for the individual above personal preference (though I probably would have been incapable of doing so during my rabidly christian period).
5- It is insulting to suggest that I would be unable to resist taking advantage of someone’s confusion to press my views, particularly after I have clearly stated that I would seek to support them in finding the solution that works for them – even if it’s not my preferred result.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I used the term scientism for a reason - because 'scientism' is a philosophy, whereby the person believes that science is the only place where mankind can get answers, even to questions which have nothing to do with science.
Thanks - I may be thick but I'm capable of noticing when you drag in a straw man without you having to point it out to me.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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chicklegirl
Shipmate
# 11741
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
And yet Jesus actively encourages such simplistic utilitarianism!
quote:
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
He makes it sound so much better than me though, the silver tongued so-and-so...
This is really one of my favorite scriptures about prayer; it covers a wide range of motivations, but even more, it illuminates that tender relationship that can be available to us as we commune with a loving God.
As to a right and wrong way, the litmus test for me is: is the manner in which I'm praying, or the thing which I'm asking for, bringing me closer to God or removing me further from Him? This includes not only requests that would harm others, but also whether I'm trying to impose my will over God's in any given situation (which may only hurt me, but nevertheless takes me further away from the path that will lead me to peace).
I've prayed while walking, driving, riding a bicycle, pulling weeds, washing dishes, yelling at my kids--and I think even changing diapers. If I'm in a moment when I need to ask for grace to do the right thing, I don't much care what else I'm doing--I fill my heart with prayer to beg for wisdom and good judgement.
I've used fixed prayers (the Serenity Prayer is a favorite), but I find so much consolation from pouring out my heart--troubles, joys, and all--and then listening until I feel His spirit whisper to me. I think prayer can be whatever it needs to be for our individual edification. No prayer police are going to give you a ticket for "doing it wrong" (and thank goodness for it!)
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If you want to be happy, be.
~ Henry David Thoreau
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The Rhythm Methodist
Shipmate
# 17064
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Posted
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Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:
True, no doubt....but one wouldn't expect an ex-believer to have much to say about an effective prayer strategy.
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Quote from HughWillRidmee
How on earth do you measure the effectiveness of a prayer strategy?
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An excellent question. I don't see prayer as exclusively petitionary. I think that meaningful communication is essential in relationships generally, and of particular import in the context of relationship with God. I say that, because there is a Christian imperative of transformation, which is most likely to occur and continue in an on-going and developing intimacy with him. An ineffective prayer strategy may be one in which that intimacy is under-developed, where faith is eroded, and where one is finally overcome by doubts. And of course, someone who finds themselves increasingly out of step with God, is likely to have their faith further eroded by seeing less positive responses to petitionary prayer – if only because they are not in a position to be asking for the right things. An effective strategy leads to deeper intimacy, and all which flows from that.
That being the case, it would seem to me that an ex-believer is unlikely to be able to offer much in the way of helpful advice, regarding how one should pray.
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012
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Flossymole
Apprentice
# 17339
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Posted
Disciples of Christ are supposed to answer others' prayers (cure the sick,feed the hungry,visit the prisoner etc.)aren't they? Does anyone think that sort of physical activity is a component of their own prayers, or makes their own 'prayer strategy' more effective?
Posts: 43 | From: Derbyshire UK | Registered: Sep 2012
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chicklegirl:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
And yet Jesus actively encourages such simplistic utilitarianism!
quote:
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
He makes it sound so much better than me though, the silver tongued so-and-so...
This is really one of my favorite scriptures about prayer; it covers a wide range of motivations, but even more, it illuminates that tender relationship that can be available to us as we commune with a loving God.
As to a right and wrong way, the litmus test for me is: is the manner in which I'm praying, or the thing which I'm asking for, bringing me closer to God or removing me further from Him? This includes not only requests that would harm others, but also whether I'm trying to impose my will over God's in any given situation (which may only hurt me, but nevertheless takes me further away from the path that will lead me to peace).
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
Thanks for bringing the book to my attention. Did you see the previous series, I wonder? They also did a flow-up show a year or two later. It was similar concept to the Big Silence but the participants were immersed in contemplative lifestyle for quite a bit longer - 40 days/ nights if I recall correctly. It was interesting to see that withdrawing from the hustle and bustle of ordinary life brought about reactions akin to withdrawal symptoms.
"The Monastery"? Yes. Wonderful stuff.
And once you start seeking to build silence into your own life you do realize just how much noise and distraction there really is. Sara Maitland wrote the excellent (if loquacious) "A Book of Silence" which is her search, over a period of years, for that stillness and what silence actually means. It's a fascinating and thought-provoking read, not particularly religious, but a compelling read. I shall have to dig it out again.
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
Susan, I think we have discussed scientism before, no? John Cleese has an interesting skit on the philosophy here.
Yes I think we've put the world to rights one way and another, and I have always enjoyed reading your posts. I'll have a look at that link later. Thank you.
quote:
Long before Dawkins described faith as "blind trust, in the absence of evidence, even in the teeth of evidence" Christians had understood it differently. If you are talking to a Christian - at least on with a sophisticated understanding of what it means to be a Christian - they wont describe faith as you do.
Well, no, they couldn't, because they have added anextra 'layer', the belief/faith/trust in God. Whether it's a sophisticated view of what a Christian is, or a simple one, it seems to me a fact that it is only faith that makes the difference between a person who follows the teachings of wise people throughout history and those who do that, vbut add a conviction that their God exists.
quote:
Faith in the New testament is presented as trust (Gk - pistis), specifically trust in God which is based, in part, on evidence - philosophical, experiential, historical, scientific and perhaps others beside.
But surely, any evidence other than scientific is entirely from the thoughts and ideas of people who have believed they were inspired by a God, had the thoughts and ideas 'given' to them by God, etc isn't it? But I am firmly of the opinion that our brains are completely capable of creating it all.
What would you put forward as scientific evidence you refer to here? (I appreciate you may have done this before, but if so, I apologise for not attempting to find it!)
quote:
Forgive me if I am incorrect here but I believe that I am familiar enough with your beliefs to say the following.
You have begged the question when you define all faith as blind faith.
Not really, only the faith that is required to believe in God/god/s. All other aspects of life for which we have faith can be traced bacusing the scientific method and where the answer cannot be proved, itmust wait its turn, rather than be assigned to God in my opinion.
quote:
Now you might dismiss the arguments an apologist gives for the reasons for why she has faith,
I hope I don't dismiss them out of hand - I can understand many of them since I had a strong belief in God once.
quote:
...but that doesn't mean her case is presented without supporting evidenced. It might just mean that her evidence simply does not move you - and this could be for any number of reasons, some good, some not so good.
The main reason it would not move me is that it would be subjective. I have learnt to be more critical - I alwayswanted to know, 'Is this TRUE?' What is required is objective evidence, isn't it?
quote:
It certainly doesn't help the conversation when you offer a definition of faith that you know your opponents will reject.
Fair comment.
quote:
Indeed, it's all quite amusing in light of of the implied certainty behind your fall-back mantra "we don't know yet". If that isn't underpinned by a mixture of faith and hope I don't know what is.
Well, the older I get, the more certain I get, but will always be ready to be proved wrong!
As always, thank you for the interesting time I have spent reading and responding.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
squibs
Love the John Cleese you tube! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I see there are a few others there too. bookmarked!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408
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Posted
Susan, Rather than drag the thread off topic, might I suggest that we take this to PMs or another thread.
I'll try my best to respond to you overt the coming days.
Posts: 1124 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
4- I can envisage situations where I, as a humanist, would put concern for the individual above personal preference (though I probably would have been incapable of doing so during my rabidly christian period).
Now here's a surprise - I can do that too, and I've never been a humanist. If you don't believe me, that's up to you.
quote:
5- It is insulting to suggest that I would be unable to resist taking advantage of someone’s confusion to press my views, particularly after I have clearly stated that I would seek to support them in finding the solution that works for them – even if it’s not my preferred result.
If you read my response properly, you would see that I did not accuse humanists and atheists alone of doing this - I said we are all guilty, including christians, whether we admit it or not.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I used the term scientism for a reason - because 'scientism' is a philosophy, whereby the person believes that science is the only place where mankind can get answers, even to questions which have nothing to do with science.
Thanks - I may be thick but I'm capable of noticing when you drag in a straw man without you having to point it out to me.
Why is it a straw man HughWillRidmee? To me it is just the way it is.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
Sorry to double post, but I just want to let you all know that you are all cordially invited to join my new thread on SCIENTISM!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
4- I can envisage situations where I, as a humanist, would put concern for the individual above personal preference (though I probably would have been incapable of doing so during my rabidly christian period).
Now here's a surprise - I can do that too, and I've never been a humanist. If you don't believe me, that's up to you.
Another unfounded assumption? – two in fact?
1 - that I should suggest that you couldn’t do that and
2 - that I might disbelieve you
quote:
5- It is insulting to suggest that I would be unable to resist taking advantage of someone’s confusion to press my views, particularly after I have clearly stated that I would seek to support them in finding the solution that works for them – even if it’s not my preferred result. If you read my response properly, you would see that I did not accuse humanists and atheists alone of doing this - I said we are all guilty, including christians, whether we admit it or not.
Again – I didn’t suggest you were singling out any group(s), but if the cap fits........
And you may believe that everyone is guilty of this, but some of us would be so aware of the risk that we would “err on the safe side”; and just to forestall any persecution complexes out there – I’m sure that some christians would do the same.
I put quite a lot of effort into trying to be precise in what I say – whilst I undoubtedly fail on occasions it is somewhat disappointing when my efforts are persistently mangled to fit someone’s desire for online martyrdom.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I used the term scientism for a reason - because 'scientism' is a philosophy, whereby the person believes that science is the only place where mankind can get answers, even to questions which have nothing to do with science. Thanks - I may be thick but I'm capable of noticing when you drag in a straw man without you having to point it out to me. Why is it a straw man HughWillRidmee ? To me it is just the way it is.
Sure – but to everyone else introducing a concept simply to attack it whilst appearing to address the real issue is known as a Straw man
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:
True, no doubt....but one wouldn't expect an ex-believer to have much to say about an effective prayer strategy.
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Quote from HughWillRidmee
How on earth do you measure the effectiveness of a prayer strategy?
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An excellent question. I don't see prayer as exclusively petitionary. I think that meaningful communication is essential in relationships generally, and of particular import in the context of relationship with God. I say that, because there is a Christian imperative of transformation, which is most likely to occur and continue in an on-going and developing intimacy with him. An ineffective prayer strategy may be one in which that intimacy is under-developed, where faith is eroded, and where one is finally overcome by doubts. And of course, someone who finds themselves increasingly out of step with God, is likely to have their faith further eroded by seeing less positive responses to petitionary prayer – if only because they are not in a position to be asking for the right things. An effective strategy leads to deeper intimacy, and all which flows from that.
That being the case, it would seem to me that an ex-believer is unlikely to be able to offer much in the way of helpful advice, regarding how one should pray.
Actually I agree that, given your response, I could not offer much in the way of helpful advice. The problem with that expectation is that help is not only a function of the intentions and/or erudition of the donor, it’s dependent upon the reaction of the recipient (it’s more about the {hopefully} helped rather than the {hopeful} helper). I suggest that by being confronted with relevant questions the recipient may work out a meaningful (to them and perhaps only them) solution which is more relevant than an imposed/recommended solution which comes with all the weight of authority.
And I still don’t think that any god worth its salt would worry about how you pray. I know that many people believe in a petty, pedantic, rule-driven god but surely that is just the product of petty, pedantic, rule-driven human beings isn’t it? If how you pray makes a difference to you but not to your god the difference is probably solely within the person praying isn’t it?
Reference asking for the right things isn't this the same as asking for what is going to happen whether requested or not?
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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The Rhythm Methodist
Shipmate
# 17064
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Posted
I wrote
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That being the case, it would seem to me that an ex-believer is unlikely to be able to offer much in the way of helpful advice, regarding how one should pray.
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Quote from HughWillRidmee
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Actually I agree that, given your response, I could not offer much in the way of helpful advice. The problem with that expectation is that help is not only a function of the intentions and/or erudition of the donor, it’s dependent upon the reaction of the recipient (it’s more about the {hopefully} helped rather than the {hopeful} helper). I suggest that by being confronted with relevant questions the recipient may work out a meaningful (to them and perhaps only them) solution which is more relevant than an imposed/recommended solution which comes with all the weight of authority.
And I still don’t think that any god worth its salt would worry about how you pray. I know that many people believe in a petty, pedantic, rule-driven god but surely that is just the product of petty, pedantic, rule-driven human beings isn’t it? If how you pray makes a difference to you but not to your god the difference is probably solely within the person praying isn’t it?
Reference asking for the right things isn't this the same as asking for what is going to happen whether requested or not?
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Am I allowed to change my mind? It now seems I may I have been a little dimissive, as there is merit in your approach.
Certainly, I would advise on some aspects of process - e.g., things like incorporating the attitudes revealed in the Lord's prayer, connecting with God throughout the day as opposed to relying on 'formal' prayer times....the importance of confession, repentance,et al. And I'd want to explain the purposes of prayer, at least as I understand them. But notwithstanding basic guidelines, I think the individual should be free to develop their own prayer regime, as you suggest.
I couldn't agree more when you say "many people believe in a petty, pedantic, rule-driven god but surely that is just the product of petty, pedantic, rule-driven human beings...". That's what I call religion, and I bow to no man in my detestation of religion, except Christ alone. Judging by what he said to the Pharisees, he dislikes it even more than I do.
You ask, "Reference asking for the right things isn't this the same as asking for what is going to happen whether requested or not?"
I guess that depends whether you believe petitionary prayer produces just a sense of involvement in God's plans, or if it can actually prompt intervention. I personally believe that scripture reveals a God who delights in elevating his people by allowing them significant and meaningful input. I strongly believe that if we 'have the mind of Christ', we will see far more 'answered' prayer, simply because we will be asking along the right lines. But I also believe that God wants to respond generously towards his people, and there may well be times when he will grant requests merely because his children ask him....i.e., that he allows us to prevail. The book of James tells us that "the prayers of a righteous man are powerful and effective". I understand that to mean our prayers can make a real difference.
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012
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The Rhythm Methodist
Shipmate
# 17064
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Posted
I wrote
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That being the case, it would seem to me that an ex-believer is unlikely to be able to offer much in the way of helpful advice, regarding how one should pray.
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Quote from HughWillRidmee
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Actually I agree that, given your response, I could not offer much in the way of helpful advice. The problem with that expectation is that help is not only a function of the intentions and/or erudition of the donor, it’s dependent upon the reaction of the recipient (it’s more about the {hopefully} helped rather than the {hopeful} helper). I suggest that by being confronted with relevant questions the recipient may work out a meaningful (to them and perhaps only them) solution which is more relevant than an imposed/recommended solution which comes with all the weight of authority.
And I still don’t think that any god worth its salt would worry about how you pray. I know that many people believe in a petty, pedantic, rule-driven god but surely that is just the product of petty, pedantic, rule-driven human beings isn’t it? If how you pray makes a difference to you but not to your god the difference is probably solely within the person praying isn’t it?
Reference asking for the right things isn't this the same as asking for what is going to happen whether requested or not?
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Am I allowed to change my mind? It now seems I may I have been a little dimissive, as there is merit in your approach.
Certainly, I would advise on some aspects of process - e.g., things like incorporating the attitudes revealed in the Lord's prayer, connecting with God throughout the day as opposed to relying on 'formal' prayer times....the importance of confession, repentance,et al. And I'd want to explain the purposes of prayer, at least as I understand them. But notwithstanding basic guidelines, I think the individual should be free to develop their own prayer regime, as you suggest.
I couldn't agree more when you say "many people believe in a petty, pedantic, rule-driven god but surely that is just the product of petty, pedantic, rule-driven human beings...". That's what I call religion, and I bow to no man in my detestation of religion, except Christ alone. Judging by what he said to the Pharisees, he dislikes it even more than I do.
You ask, "Reference asking for the right things isn't this the same as asking for what is going to happen whether requested or not?"
I guess that depends whether you believe petitionary prayer produces just a sense of involvement in God's plans, or if it can actually prompt intervention. I personally believe that scripture reveals a God who delights in elevating his people by allowing them significant and meaningful input. I strongly believe that if we 'have the mind of Christ', we will see far more 'answered' prayer, simply because we will be asking along the right lines. But I also believe that God wants to respond generously towards his people, and there may well be times when he will grant requests merely because his children ask him....i.e., that he allows us to prevail. The book of James tells us that "the prayers of a righteous man are powerful and effective". I understand that to mean our prayers can make a real difference.
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012
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Brother Oscar
Apprentice
# 17227
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Flossymole:
Originally posted by Brother Oscar: quote:
Just as Julian of Norwich recorded in her Showings:
quote:I am the ground of your praying. First, it is my will that you should have this; then I make it your will, too: then I make you ask for it, and you do so. How then should you not have what you pray for?
Thank you for that. That seems to explain the remarkable granting of the first prayer I ever prayed for an enemy (which got the enemy out of a frightening, embarrassing situation, turned us into friends and made me a Christian, without any further doubt).
Sorry for the late response, I've been away from the Ship for a while but I just wanted to say how great it was to read how prayer and heeding the call to love our enemies led you to Christian faith. Thank you for sharing that. It reminds me of James Alison's off the cuff definition of forgiveness: 'Don't let the bastards get to you.' It is only through prayer that I feel we can let go of anger and learn to forgive.
quote:
Originally posted by Flossymole:
Disciples of Christ are supposed to answer others' prayers (cure the sick,feed the hungry,visit the prisoner etc.)aren't they? Does anyone think that sort of physical activity is a component of their own prayers, or makes their own 'prayer strategy' more effective?
Absolutely! It is unfortunate that this has been over looked, because I think it is a great question. I think prayer and action are intimately linked. This is where I would say that the Lord's prayer is more than a petitionary prayer. It is also what you might call an inductive prayer, in that each petition relates to the life of discipleship, and the coming Kingdom of God.
- Hallowed be thy name - Jesus had called the disciples to 'be holy as God is holy' and to reflect God's holiness in their compassion and mercy.
- Thy kingdom come - Likewise the disciples were called when Jesus proclaimed: 'The Kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe in the Good News."
- Thy will be done - So the disciples were to anticipate the coming of the Kingdom by obeying and doing God's will.
- Give us this day our daily bread - Strikes me as reflecting the disciples itinerant lifestyle and their taking little for the journey but depending on God where ever they went.
- Forgive us our sins - as we forgive - And this was the business they were in, freeing people from the sin that binds them and keeps them from God.
- Lead us not into temptation - Deliver us from evil - The Greek and original context of these last two petitions say much more about resisting Empire and the world than about personal sins. Similarly, we might think about resisting global capitalism and exploitative media.
Not only with this in mind, but also thinking of my own experience of prayer granting me an awareness of God's will but also energy and compassion through the Holy Spirit, I would say that the way we pray is intimately tied up with the kind of discipleship that we live out.
The opposite is also true. If the way that we live is antithetical to God, we will find it very hard to pray. If we are closed and do not live compassionately and are unjustly, then our hearts will find it difficult to open up to God. Our meanness and injustice will accuse us before God. The Desert Fathers we quite clear that anger makes it impossible to pray.
Posts: 23 | From: Loidis | Registered: Jul 2012
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