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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: No more cats
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
Grammatica, while the cat is the same in any environment, the variety of prey is not. I know the mess ferral cats make of our local wildlife here in Australia, and at least our birds can fly to avoid them. Wikipedia gives an overview of some of the issues.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
teddybear - even Chuck Heston would have laughed at that.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
If the evidence shows that cats are entirely to blame for the death of the birds of New Zealand, well, then, of course, the rest follows.
I am wondering what that evidence is. Does anyone have that evidence?
Cats are not entirely to blame for all the killings of native birds which go on here, of course. Here is a link to the Department of Conservation's webpage on animal pests. As far as birds (rather than flora) go, the real nasties are stoats, weasels, and ferrets. Large sums of money are spent every year in an attempt to mediate the threat they present to birdlife. None of this changes the fact that feral cats, and in some areas, domestic cats also, represent a significant modifiable risk factor. As such, it seems to me entirely appropriate that we (NZ'ers) be asked to begin a conversation about how such a risk factor might be managed, particularly given that as far as bush-living feral cats are concerned, efforts to eliminate mustelids may simply create a vacuum in the food chain which they can then further occupy.
I also begin to wonder if we have strayed a bit from the original point lilBuddha was looking to discuss, namely,
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This is very symbolic of our attitudes towards the environment, our comfort vs proper management.
It is exactly that. It is NIMBY-ism in another form. Taking care of our environment/protecting our local ecosystems, is someone else's problem. It has nothing to do with my household, and the decisions we make in it, does it? At least that's what our useless Prime Minister seems to think, apparently based on nothing more than the fact that his cat is docile and purry. He goes on to declare 'a few cats catching birds' to 'not be the big issue', but fails to specify what the big issue is. I think lilBuddha has nailed the big issue in one. Our comfort vs. proper management. Our comfort vs. unpalatable truths. Our comfort vs. making changes to the way we do things. And so on.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
If it's scientific data you're after, try this research project from the University of Reading. Their study of urban cats suggests that cats are indeed affecting the wildlife populations in some areas of the UK, despite the fact that our birds can fly.
Cats don't need to catch the bird to kill it; for a ground-feeding bird in an area with 600-odd cats per square kilometre, all they have to do is make it impossible for the bird to feed.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
A far bigger problem to birds is intensive farming. Ironically I have a cat, but with the addition of a bell, keeping it indoors while baby birds are about, its only downed one bird in three years. By contract careful garden feeding has seen the population of small birds increase dramatically. So anecdotally, in my garden the addition of a cat hasn't reduced wildlife at all. By careful management its increased Without cats the mouse population would rapidly increase, spreading disease.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
Without cats the mouse population would rapidly increase, spreading disease.
New Zealand isn't supposed to have mice, either...
And neither is Australia. Even with cats around we get things like this.
(For once, dramatic Fox America voiceovers are appropriate!)
Just trying to illustrate the flaws of making assumptions based on your natural ecology on another continent.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Did you bother to click on the link? The blurb on the page acknowledges the major problems of habitat destruction and fragmentation along with change in land use. The project was specifically formulated to measure the impact of urban cats on wildlife, and it concluded that there IS a significant impact.
I don't have a cat and have never had problems with mice. If I did there are plenty of other ways of controlling them besides buying a cat.
This is beginning to remind me of the gun control thread...
[x-posted with Orfeo]
[ 25. January 2013, 09:10: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Jane R: quote:
This is beginning to remind me of the gun control thread...
Except that guns don't purr and rub up against us or comfort us when we're lonely.
Yeah, yeah, the logical arguments may be on the side of the ban, but to people who have loved cats, it sounds as coldly hollow as hearing your best friend's family is being ejected from the neighborhood.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
However, cats are the same animals in both countries.
That's irrelevant. The point is that the animals they're hunting are different in different countries.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Lyda Rose: quote:
Yeah, yeah, the logical arguments may be on the side of the ban, but to people who have loved cats, it sounds as coldly hollow as hearing your best friend's family is being ejected from the neighborhood.
I understand that. I am not particularly keen on cats myself but even I hit the brakes when one runs out in front of my car. I just find it difficult to sympathise with cat owners who say 'well MY cat isn't part of the problem' or 'The real problems are caused by people' (yes, and you're a person) or 'Not allowing cats to hunt Upsets The Balance Of Nature' (well, feeding them catfood does too).
And btw Arminian, the plural of anecdote is NOT data. If it were, I might be tempted to tell you about the effect my previous neighbours' four (count them, FOUR) cats had on the wildlife in our garden.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
Well I feel I might go to Cats Protection this afternoon to get another five and mount a bird feeder on the ground outside the back door just to annoy that stupid man.
Posts: 32 | From: Moseley | Registered: Jul 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Wow. That's... words fail me when it comes to that as a response.
[ 25. January 2013, 09:57: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Feral cats are a real problem where I live as they decimate the small native birds and animals. Domestic cats, when properly managed aren't a problem, but there will always be members of the public who don't fulfil their responsibilities and therefore the cat problem becomes serious. I would like to see cats removed from my country as they are becoming an ecological nightmare.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Maureen: quote:
...just to annoy that stupid man
Who are you calling a man?
Also, this may come as a shock to you but Cats Protection are unlikely to let you have one cat (let alone five) if you aren't prepared to buy them catfood.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
This is beginning to remind me of the gun control thread...
Yes, that sums it up.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
I also begin to wonder if we have strayed a bit from the original point lilBuddha was looking to discuss, namely,
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This is very symbolic of our attitudes towards the environment, our comfort vs proper management.
It is exactly that. It is NIMBY-ism in another form. Taking care of our environment/protecting our local ecosystems, is someone else's problem. It has nothing to do with my household, and the decisions we make in it, does it?
I did wish to discuss the bigger picture, but the cat issue has proven to be exactly the problem. "I want my comfort and to hell with anything else." This basic attitude, for different factors of comfort; strips our resources, scars our landscape, extinguishes species and kills other people.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
I was hoping to feed them on the birds that use the feeder. I already have five cats and feed about 6 or 7 others.
Posts: 32 | From: Moseley | Registered: Jul 2012
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This basic attitude, for different factors of comfort; strips our resources, scars our landscape, extinguishes species and kills other people.
I used to have a cat like that...
--Tom Clune
[Edited to change "own" to "have." Nobody could legitimately claim to "own" Elmo...]
[ 25. January 2013, 15:59: Message edited by: tclune ]
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This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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snowgoose
Silly goose
# 4394
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Posted
I realize New Zealand's ecosystem is very different from ours in Virginia and that introduced predators can do serious damage to the indigenous fauna.
That being said, you can't ignore the fact that there are other introduced species (rats, for example) that are also a problem there. In the house we lived in 20 years ago we had to get a (neutered an microchipped) cat to kill the mice that were attracting snakes to the house. I know you don't have snakes, but I am sure you sometimes have rodent problems, because rodents breed like--well, rats.
Every cat that comes out of our local Humane Society is microchipped. Everyone who gets a cat is strongly urged to keep it indoors. Some animal rescue places will not let you have a cat if you don't intend to keep it inside.
There are feral cats, of course, but we have a pretty good TNR program, which keeps the population down. The (spayed and microchipped) stray cat who has adopted us keeps the voles from destroying my garden. Her territory is limited because she stays close to her food dish and heated bed in the garage.
It would certainly not be a perfect situation in a land of flightless birds, but educating cat owners, along with microchipping and TNR programs, could certainly help contain the problem.
It is also more realistic, because people love their pets. I would be very surprised if they were able to get the votes to ban cats completely.
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Lord, what can the harvest hope for, if not for the care of the Reaper Man? --Terry Pratchett
Save a Siamese!
Posts: 3868 | From: Tidewater Virginia | Registered: Apr 2003
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]
For the record, I am Chinese, living in a city with one of the highest concentrations of Chinese restaurants in the Western Hemisphere, and I have yet to see cat on the menu. I have traveled to various countries in Asia, and have yet seen cat served there either. And yes, I own a cat, and am quite fond of him alive, and in any case at his age, he's likely to be too stringy to be palatable. Not effective.
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
Edited to eliminate double post. Apologies.
[ 25. January 2013, 18:20: Message edited by: Wilfried ]
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Cats are certainly on the menu in many countries, including some regions of China. However, the stories of cat meat in Chinese restaurants in western countries is almost certainly apocryphal.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Bean Sidhe
Shipmate
# 11823
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Posted
We have two cats, who roam free 24/7, the cat flap always open. I agreed to them, reluctantly, when our kids begged us after a schoolfriend's cat had a litter, because we had a problem with rats. I've seen no sign of a rat since.
Thery're getting old now, spend most of their time flopping around the house, though still no rats - their odour hanging around I guess (hope!) When they were younger, apart from one sad incident with a starling, I saw no sign that they predated anything but rodents.
Introduced species can have a devastating effect on some local fauna, from competition as well as predation. North American grey squirrels have all but extinguished the European Red from the UK. Aggressive buggers, our cats have learnt to leave them well alone.
But, but... we are part of nature, what we do to an ecosystem is part of that ecosystem. Species come and go. We get exercised about anything warm and furry or feathered that is threatened, less so about poikilotherms, especially invertebrates. Too much 'environmentalism' hangs on the coat-tails of anthropomorphism. I'm way more concerned about climate change than the effect of cats.
Posts: 4363 | From: where the taxis won't go | Registered: Sep 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I've nothing in particular against cats (though I would prefer them not to use our herb garden as a toilet) but can I get a license to shoot magpie? These buggers thrive on fledgelings and while there are fewer than there used to be, I'd like to help.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
judging how much hunting your cat does based on what you see or what they bring home as a "gift" is probably very much under-estimating.
I have three cats (neutered) who are indoor-outdoor with free access through a cat door. I got the first to eliminate mice, which he did. (we had a pretty serious problem although not nearly like the video posted earlier).
But I live in VA. Here most small cat prey have other natural predators. and the rodents they primarily bring home are pests whose populations have established an equilibrium with all the local predators, including cats. If I lived in NZ I would probably not have cats or if I did I would not allow them outside. I understand the unique problem. yes, it's tru, nature does deal. but here's the thing.. WE have to live in this world right now. in the long run, nature will work around anything and come out fine. it's done it before, it will do it again. but we live in the short term, and we have to deal with the consequences right NOW. changes in climate and ecosystem are going to impact us. invasive xenobiotics impact us now. we can ignore it, of course, just as we can certainly ignore climate changed.. but then we have to live with the consequences, and those consequences may be very unpleasant.
It's also true that humans tend to react much more positively to the plight of cute critters, rather than slimy, or scaly or multi-legged ones. we used to refer to them as "charismatic mega fauna" (although that term is misleading). but the thing is that often those cute critters share an ecotystem with other critters less cute and cuddly, and protecting the ecosystem of one protects it for the rest. That is why the Endangered Species Act is so valuable.. sure, it protects spotted owls etc., but in the meantime it also protects the ecosystems they live in. Other laws don't have that power.
it doesn't have to be either/or. we can try to minimize the impact we have on the surrounding world ever way we can, from the littlest actions to the biggest. saying "well, I did X so I don't have to do Y" is silly. saying "we can't stop the big things so let's not worry about the little things" is also silly. we should all do the maximum we can, in whatever way we can.
I made the mistake of planting an invasive in my yard. I had no idea when I bought it that it was invasive. stupid, because I should have researched, but I made an assumption and we all know what that does. Anyhow, this invasive has now spread from it's original location. It's hard to eradicate, but not all that hard to control. on the other hand, there are other invasives all over the yard which I had nothing to do with introducing. I'm constantly waging war on the honey suckle for example, which is FAR more invasive than the plant I introduced. does that mean I go ahead and keep my own plant because after all, it's not as bad as the other one? why should it? I can do that more easily, and still have energy to fight with the big bad. it's not either or.
I often fantacise about moving to NZ (for various reasons not at all connected to this thread). if I did, I'd take my cats with me and keep them indoors. but I would not replace them when they passed. I'd invest in some other pet that isn't quite so hard on the locals.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Cats are filthy animals that spread a parasite thought to be responsible for causing reckless behaviour in humans.
Dr E. Fuller Torrey of the Stanley foundation's research center believes that schizophrenia is caused by a virus spread by cats. I have one anyway. Cats have ways of worming their way into your heart as well as your brain.
As to NZ's problem, I would suggest they introduce ten thousand dachshunds. They can weed out the weasels, ferrets, badgers and cats all at once, or at least make their lives miserable. Of course then you have other problems. Australia would complain about the barking.
The cat lovers should get bumper stickers that say, "Not before the pitbulls."
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
We keep our cat inside like we normally do with our guns.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Cats are certainly on the menu in many countries, including some regions of China. However, the stories of cat meat in Chinese restaurants in western countries is almost certainly apocryphal.
To be honest, any time I see a suggestion about eating cats, I think "you haven't smelled the inside of a cat".
I have smelled the inside of an Australian feral cat, and I and all my dear old classmates from Parasitology in the late 1990s can attest to the fact that the smell is absolutely revolting in a way that the inside of other animals isn't.
And having babysat a domestic cat, and recognised the same general aroma in weaker form coming from kitty litter, I'm fairly sure the revolting smell is a function of the cat part, not the feral part.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Cats are certainly on the menu in many countries, including some regions of China. However, the stories of cat meat in Chinese restaurants in western countries is almost certainly apocryphal.
To be honest, any time I see a suggestion about eating cats, I think "you haven't smelled the inside of a cat".
I have smelled the inside of an Australian feral cat, and I and all my dear old classmates from Parasitology in the late 1990s can attest to the fact that the smell is absolutely revolting in a way that the inside of other animals isn't.
And having babysat a domestic cat, and recognised the same general aroma in weaker form coming from kitty litter, I'm fairly sure the revolting smell is a function of the cat part, not the feral part.
If a cat is fed properly (a raw meat, grain-free diet), there is no issue with stinky litter trays. Given that I'm sure feral cats probably eat a lot of less-than-optimum food to stay alive, and most commercial cat food has far too much grain and other fillers, it's their diet not the fact that they are cats. Cats are obligate carnivores and most cat food on the market isn't actually very good for them. Not dissimilar from most commercial human food.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
I don't know about New Zealand but if somebody would like to eradicate the cat that shits on my font lawn every morning, I would be grateful.
All domestic animals should be contained in tanks, paddocks or cages.
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
We get exercised about anything warm and furry or feathered that is threatened, less so about poikilotherms, especially invertebrates. Too much 'environmentalism' hangs on the coat-tails of anthropomorphism.
Well, you'll be pleased to know that a coalition of environmentalists here in NZ (story here) managed to get quite a lot of airtime a few years ago in a campaign to save a species of snail from probable extinction due to open-cast mining in their (extremely restricted) habitat. Of course the mining went ahead anyway - money talks - but they were required to do quite a lot snail-gathering and snail re-homing before proceeding.
However, on the whole, I agree with you. I can never really understand why those who do marketing assume when packaging tuna, that all I need to know is that no dolphins were harmed, and that makes it all ok. I doubt it's really all that ok for the tuna, who as I understand it are mostly crushed to death. But tuna are not mammals, not cute, not playful, and don't make little chattery sounds - so who cares what happens to them, eh...
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
We get exercised about anything warm and furry or feathered that is threatened, less so about poikilotherms, especially invertebrates. Too much 'environmentalism' hangs on the coat-tails of anthropomorphism.
Well, you'll be pleased to know that a coalition of environmentalists here in NZ (story here) managed to get quite a lot of airtime a few years ago in a campaign to save a species of snail from probable extinction due to open-cast mining in their (extremely restricted) habitat. Of course the mining went ahead anyway - money talks - but they were required to do quite a lot snail-gathering and snail re-homing before proceeding.
However, on the whole, I agree with you. I can never really understand why those who do marketing assume when packaging tuna, that all I need to know is that no dolphins were harmed, and that makes it all ok. I doubt it's really all that ok for the tuna, who as I understand it are mostly crushed to death. But tuna are not mammals, not cute, not playful, and don't make little chattery sounds - so who cares what happens to them, eh...
Slightly different for animals hunted/reared/harvested for food, surely? I mean I think cows are cute but I still want to eat beef.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
If you want some light reading about cats, There is a classic thread in Limbo.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]
For the record, I am Chinese, living in a city with one of the highest concentrations of Chinese restaurants in the Western Hemisphere, and I have yet to see cat on the menu. I have traveled to various countries in Asia, and have yet seen cat served there either. And yes, I own a cat, and am quite fond of him alive, and in any case at his age, he's likely to be too stringy to be palatable. Not effective.
The insinuation that Chinese restaurants serve feral/stray cats is offensively racist.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
It amazes me that Gareth Morgan, who chose to ride his motorbike through some ecologically fragile areas of Antartica, doesn't look at his own behaviour first.
The biggest danger to wildlife Aotearoa/NZ are people, followed by possums, weasles, stoats, rats and mice. None of these animals swum here by themselves, (although the rats and mice probably hitched a ride). The bird I chose as my board name was wiped out in the last 80 years because of a fashion for it's feathers after a visiting member of the royal family wore one in his hat - then everyone wanted one.
I think the problem with feral cats is likewise a human one, people who refusing to neuter cats their cats and dumping kittens. In effect Morgan is suggesting no one has a cat because of the behaviour of some.
Given the high toll that alcohol consumption causes here I'm wondering if his next suggestion might be prohibittion.
And yes, I do live with a cat, a stray who invaded my life - Georgie-Porgy fat'n'fluffy who is death to rolls of paper towels and the odd baby sparrow that falls out of it's nest.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
We feed birds and therefore have a large number , they feed off the ground as well as from hanging feeders.
We also have a cat . He has a collar and bell because has ,alas, killed birds in the past. He is kept indoors most of the time and we have learnt to let him out at selected times , usually when someone is out as well.
This has reduced the death toll so we can all, (including the cat), enjoy looking out the window at all the birds feeding just a few yards away.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]
For the record, I am Chinese, living in a city with one of the highest concentrations of Chinese restaurants in the Western Hemisphere, and I have yet to see cat on the menu. I have traveled to various countries in Asia, and have yet seen cat served there either. And yes, I own a cat, and am quite fond of him alive, and in any case at his age, he's likely to be too stringy to be palatable. Not effective.
The insinuation that Chinese restaurants serve feral/stray cats is offensively racist.
I think tclune was joking.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
...The insinuation that Chinese restaurants serve feral/stray cats is offensively racist.
Meh....living in a city where the distinctions between people from East Asia go down to the provincial level, I would say more like uneducated.
People from different cultures are different. Baring a study like the one recently done on burgers in the UK, we don't really know anything but apocryphal understandings based really on eating meat that tastes different then we are used to.
I do know, that in those horrible to contemplate lifeboat situations, between me and our two boys, I would reluctantly but understandably put myself first.
And thus I can understand why some people in come cultures might consider their own hunger/economic needs first before the need of a stray cat to live.
Its not racist.
Its logic without proof.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]
For the record, I am Chinese, living in a city with one of the highest concentrations of Chinese restaurants in the Western Hemisphere, and I have yet to see cat on the menu. I have traveled to various countries in Asia, and have yet seen cat served there either. And yes, I own a cat, and am quite fond of him alive, and in any case at his age, he's likely to be too stringy to be palatable. Not effective.
The insinuation that Chinese restaurants serve feral/stray cats is offensively racist.
I think tclune was joking.
I realise he was attempting to be humorous I just didn't realise that racist jokes were ok on SOF. Glad I know.
Oh and Og, we're not talking about people eating rats, snakes or whatever because they're hungry or it is part of their traditional diet. The reference was to serving cat in chinese restaurants in western countries such as NZ which isn't the same thing at all. At a bare minimum it's illegal and unhygienic.
[ 26. January 2013, 12:19: Message edited by: Evangeline ]
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]
For the record, I am Chinese, living in a city with one of the highest concentrations of Chinese restaurants in the Western Hemisphere, and I have yet to see cat on the menu. I have traveled to various countries in Asia, and have yet seen cat served there either. And yes, I own a cat, and am quite fond of him alive, and in any case at his age, he's likely to be too stringy to be palatable. Not effective.
The insinuation that Chinese restaurants serve feral/stray cats is offensively racist.
I've eaten in three that have been busted for serving up cat meat.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
Links for proof, Mere Nick, else I think you belong here.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Links for proof, Mere Nick, else I think you belong here.
I've no doubt I'm more aware of what happened two miles from my office than you or Snopes ever will. I have no idea of knowing whether or not I personally ate cat meat but, if I did, it tasted fine.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Bean Sidhe
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# 11823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
We get exercised about anything warm and furry or feathered that is threatened, less so about poikilotherms, especially invertebrates. Too much 'environmentalism' hangs on the coat-tails of anthropomorphism.
Well, you'll be pleased to know that a coalition of environmentalists here in NZ (story here) managed to get quite a lot of airtime a few years ago in a campaign to save a species of snail from probable extinction due to open-cast mining in their (extremely restricted) habitat. Of course the mining went ahead anyway - money talks - but they were required to do quite a lot snail-gathering and snail re-homing before proceeding.
However, on the whole, I agree with you. I can never really understand why those who do marketing assume when packaging tuna, that all I need to know is that no dolphins were harmed, and that makes it all ok. I doubt it's really all that ok for the tuna, who as I understand it are mostly crushed to death. But tuna are not mammals, not cute, not playful, and don't make little chattery sounds - so who cares what happens to them, eh...
Slightly different for animals hunted/reared/harvested for food, surely? I mean I think cows are cute but I still want to eat beef.
Yes, me too. But then we care more about how the furry/feathered ones are treated, hence the markets for free range chicken and eggs, and outdoor-reared pork, not to mention concern about humane killing in abertoirs, hunters being skilled enough to make a clean kill etc. As Anoesis points out, the scaly critters just get yanked out of the sea and gutted. I still eat fish, mind.
I'm a toughie about conservation. Life for wild creatures is a 24/7 war zone and always will be, though the biosphere as a whole is very resilient - it's survived asteroid strikes, holocaustic vulcanism, you name it and it would survive global warming, though radically changed and, very likely, not with our species in it. As David Attenborough said recently, we may have only 50 years before our number's up.
[ 26. January 2013, 17:15: Message edited by: Bean Sidhe ]
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How do you know when a politician is lying?
His lips are moving.
Danny DeVito
Posts: 4363 | From: where the taxis won't go | Registered: Sep 2006
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Soror Magna
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# 9881
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Posted
I also have to say that the situation on islands or in ecosystems with unique fauna like Australia and New Zealand isn't comparable to what happens on the big continents. People are fortunately becoming more aware of invasive species. I can't tell you how thrilled I am about the Burmese python hunt in Florida.
According to the Fatal Light Awareness Program (FLAP) in Toronto, cats come in at #5 on the bird death list, after habitat loss, building collisions, power lines and hunting. There are many more lights and windows than there are cats.
FLAP - Who We Are
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Hunting by humans takes more birds in this city then cats?
Like I knew a few people had nets in their back yards but still that hardly seems credible.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Bean Sidhe
Shipmate
# 11823
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Posted
Probably restaurants setting traps on the roof. Could you tell pigeon from pheasant?
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How do you know when a politician is lying?
His lips are moving.
Danny DeVito
Posts: 4363 | From: where the taxis won't go | Registered: Sep 2006
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
quote:
We feed birds and therefore have a large number , they feed off the ground as well as from hanging feeders.
We also have a cat . He has a collar and bell because has ,alas, killed birds in the past. He is kept indoors most of the time and we have learnt to let him out at selected times , usually when someone is out as well.
This has reduced the death toll so we can all, (including the cat), enjoy looking out the window at all the birds feeding just a few yards away.
Same here. By putting the feeders where the cat can be seen, it has only managed to catch one bird in three years. We also have some ground feeding birds who are doing just fine.
I'd love to know if the 'research' on cats killing birds took account of
a) cats with bells on their collars,
b) households who feed birds
c) if the research was done by some grumpy git who doesn't like cats shitting in their garden... (our cat has its own litter tray and doesn't do much of that either !).
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
Probably restaurants setting traps on the roof. Could you tell pigeon from pheasant?
Yes - especially if it is city pidgeon rather than decently fed wood pidgeon!
Talking about cats attacking birds, my rabbit was out for his morning constitutional in the garden today, and when I turned around to check on him he was charging at a bird that had settled infront of his summer house...
I wonder if someone will conduct a study of the impact of bunnies on bird populations...
In news actually related to this thread...
this decision by the UK government roughly fits in with what you are discussing.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
And this fits in exactly.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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sophs
Sardonic Angel
# 2296
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Posted
Of course, if every cat owner was responsible, or if more cat rescue charities spent the time and money they don't really have on neutering and finding homes for stray and feral cats this wouldn't be as large a problem.
We're lucky in our area, the branch of cats protection has a trap neuter release program for feral and stray cats, they are overwhelmed by the cats they have to help, luckily the vets are awesome and take some of the slack but it's still a huge problem.
Posts: 5407 | From: searching saharas of sorrow | Registered: Feb 2002
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