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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: There and back again my preciousss
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
I would have grave concerns about doing another 3 after that though, a la George Lucas. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
He will wander into Lucas territory if, after making The Silmarillion pentology, he then offers Eru Ilúvatar; the Early, Lonely Years prequel. In two parts.
quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
I was also pretty pleased that they kept in touches like the golf gag but the stone giants bit was unnecessary.
The stone giants scene, if done as in the book, would have fit perfectly in the movie.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ceannaideach
Shipmate
# 12007
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Posted
I've been a fan of the books since I was yay high to a grasshopper. I loved the film, even if the purist in me was sitting in my head commenting on things like the battle of Azanulbizar and how that was an attempt to avenge Thror's death, not the cause of it.
I didn't mind the sudden blossoming of courage in Bilbo because as we know from Lord of the Rings:
quote:
There is a seed of courage hidden (often deeply, it is true) in the heart of the fattest and most timid hobbit, waiting for some final and desperate danger to make it grow.
and
quote:
Pity filled his heart and great wonder, and suddenly the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke. he clenched his hand. She should not die, so fair, so desperate! At least she should not die alone, unaided.
And that was the thought running through my mind when Bilbo went to the defence of Thorin.
Also I think Radagast is meant to be strange to our eyes and sensibilities seeing as Yavanna sent him primarily to care for the birds, beasts and trees rather than to the main Hnau (as it were).
Anyway I'm taking my brother to see it on wednesday so I've a happy excuse to see it again! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"I dream of the day when I will learn to stop asking questions for which I will regret learning the answers." - Roy Greenhilt OOTS
Posts: 199 | From: Shakespeare's County | Registered: Nov 2006
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
They are all flawed, the heroes of the story. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about motivation. Smeagol reaches a place where he is really not self-motivated-- or only barely.
I guess I am just thinking in storytelling terms, not in terms of character development (which might work for Smeagol being heroic) . In terms of the story, he's more an agent of antagonism, don't you think?
Smeagol is not an agent of Mordor, the primary antagonist, even if he is enslaved by the ring.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
I remembered Radagast as the eccentric tree hugging hermit type - the bird poo didn't faze me - but the rocket propelled rabbits who pulled his sled did. Why didn't I remember THEM??? Or did PJ just enlarge the idea?
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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The Machine Elf
Irregular polytope
# 1622
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Posted
I suspect rabbit sledding would make a better video game than getting pooped on.
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Elves of any kind are strange folk.
Posts: 1298 | From: the edge of the deep green sea | Registered: Oct 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The problem was that PJs reworking of the involvement of Radagast meant that he had to get around fast, so needed some means of doing that. In the original, the evidence is that he didn't actually get around a great deal, and definitely not fast. He lived at the pace of nature, which was right.
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Blog
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take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
I remembered Radagast as the eccentric tree hugging hermit type - the bird poo didn't faze me - but the rocket propelled rabbits who pulled his sled did. Why didn't I remember THEM???
Radagast wasn't in the Hobbit (book), was he? He was mentioned in LoTR but I don't remember him actually appearing other than as a literary device. I'm sure I'd have remembered jet-propelled rabbits...
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Overall, I thought it was a fairly good movie, but it wasn't The Hobbit. The bit between Bilbo and Gollum justified the whole film, but it was just about the only part that rang true. The most annoying thing was the attempt to make Bilbo into a conventional Hollywood fantasy hero by having him kill the orc to save Thorin at the end. That seems connected to the way PJ mucked up the troll incident, which in the book is where Bilbo establishes his burglar cred by outwitting the trolls after the dwarves are captured. That establishes his value to the dwarves, but PJ seems to have felt he needed to make Bilbo proving himself the climax of the first movie, so chose to change that encounter to make Gandalf the rescuer.
The beginning, and even more so the ending, dragged on much too long. The latter, especially, seemed like nothing but an excuse for vertigo-inducing 3D shots (I saw it in 2D, having been underwhelmed by 3D in The Avengers). I thought the feel of the battles in the goblin caves was all wrong--the book gives a sense of claustrophobic clashes by torchlight in cramped tunnels, with enemies appearing out of the dark, not grand battles in vast, brightly-lit caverns with elaborate bridges, etc. Also, the goblins in The Hobbit are not portrayed as the large orcs of LOTR, but a smaller breed--indeed, the whole book is smaller in scale, and the way PJ inflates it to make it another LOTR is the most unsatisfactory thing about it.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
The bit between Bilbo and Gollum justified the whole film, but it was just about the only part that rang true.
Actually, I do not think it rang completely true. Gollum, in the book, is wholly a vicious creature. His inner battle in the film just doesn't exist in the book. And Bilbo is still very much the frightened rabbit at this point in the book.
[ 06. January 2013, 19:35: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
That seems connected to the way PJ mucked up the troll incident, which in the book is where Bilbo establishes his burglar cred by outwitting the trolls after the dwarves are captured. That establishes his value to the dwarves, but PJ seems to have felt he needed to make Bilbo proving himself the climax of the first movie, so chose to change that encounter to make Gandalf the rescuer.
Bilbo does nothing in the book to outwit the dwarves - that's all Gandalf. In the book Gandalf throws his voice to keep the trolls arguing until sunrise; Jackson has Bilbo keeping the trolls talking.
quote:
Also, the goblins in The Hobbit are not portrayed as the large orcs of LOTR, but a smaller breed--indeed, the whole book is smaller in scale, and the way PJ inflates it to make it another LOTR is the most unsatisfactory thing about it.
I think I agree with you about the general principle. But the film does distinguish between the worg riding orcs and the goblins: the goblins are much smaller and wizened. Apart from the goblin king, the goblins are no taller than the dwarves.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Radagast wasn't in the Hobbit (book), was he? He was mentioned in LoTR but I don't remember him actually appearing other than as a literary device. I'm sure I'd have remembered jet-propelled rabbits...
Gandalf, at the Council of Elrond (in LOTR), relates an episode in which he and Radagast interact. In that tale, Radagast rides a horse.
In the Hobbit, Gandalf mentions Radagast to Beorn upon first meeting him (presumably in order to win the Beorn's favor/help).
Gandalf: Perhaps you have heard of my cousin Radagast who lives near the Southern borders of Mirkwood?
Beorn: Yes, not a bad fellow as wizards go, I believe. I used to see him now and again.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Oh no, not more huge caverns and bridges. (You can guess I haven't seen it yet.) Every flipping adventure seems to have them and I am getting fed up with them.
I went down a salt mine at Saltzburg, and we were shown old passages which had closed up from the pressure of the mountain above - I know that salt is more mobile than your average rock, but huge spaces just aren't sustainable. See George MacDonald's "Princess and Curdie" in which the city collapses when the miners dig out the supporting rock columns.
I watched "Prince of Persia" yesterday - same old same old, plus ancient mechanisms. But no actual narrow bridge, I think. (But I wasn't watching too carefully - bored of the things.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I went down a salt mine at Saltzburg, and we were shown old passages which had closed up from the pressure of the mountain above - I know that salt is more mobile than your average rock, but huge spaces just aren't sustainable.
The earth's crust is riddled with huge natural caverns.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
True. But much of the caverns in LOTR and the Hobbit are mines. And gold, as well some other precious metals, is generally transported in a precipitate form through fissures and cracks. This leads to the deposits being found in relatively unstable rock.
[ 07. January 2013, 19:22: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
But the larger caverns of Moria, for instance, are described as being built with large pillars holding up the ceilings/roofs. Further from the descriptions of the mining, the ores were not located in the same places as the living quarters / large cavernous spaces.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Orcadian
Shipmate
# 1564
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Posted
Having gone with rather low expectations, I have to say I enjoyed my three hours.
I always felt with LotR that the films just didn't capture the mythic quality of the books. LotR is clearly a (long) novel, but it is very grounded in the decades long creation that unpinned Tolkien's universe. There's a depth and morality to the stories that is more than PJ's production values or film length can match.
The Hobbit by contrast is located there, but at its heart is just a rollicking good story for children to enjoy. I thought the film was in that sense much truer to the book. And I was happy to sit back and enjoy it.
(The fact that I was in a very relaxed cinema where you could pop out to buy a glass of wine and bring it back to your seat might have helped too, I suppose!)
Posts: 87 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
I just cannot get on with any of the books or films. I’ve tried reading LotR many times over the last 30 or so years and always given it up as a bad job at roughly the same point, just after I get sick of poems and songs and that bloke who lives in the trees.
Then the films came out and I got 2 hours into the first one before giving it up as a bad job.
Then my lad (who loves it all) dragged me along to The Hobbit (I put my foot down and insisted on 2D though), and three hours later I came out convinced that I’m just not built for the damned stories. Perhaps if Tolkien had handed his ideas over to a ghost writer, and someone other than PJ had made the films (one or two films, each with a beginning a middle and an end – just for a change), then perhaps it would be different.
The whole concept bores me to tears I’m afraid, and I like to think I have given the books and the films a fair chance.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
I haven't seen it on the big screen yet, and have mixed feelings about it...making it a trilogy just seems to be holding on to the breadwagon.
I also have mixed feelings about PJ--I loved some of the cinematic grandeur of LOTR, but I have a hard time forgiving him for leaving out the Scouring of the Shire. I have an even harder time forgiving him for re-writing the character of Faramir so badly.
Agreed on both counts. I watched TTT while listening to the director/writer commentary, and there was a load of self-congratulatory piffle from Philippa and Fran about how Faramir *needed* to be rewritten so that he had a "jehhney" (journey). It made me want to toss the DVD out the window; as if Tolkien needs to be fixed according to the golden principles of How To Write a Rilly Good Script.
Not only did they screw Faramir's character up, the motivations for his change of heart are unclear. He takes the hobbits to Osgiliath, where the Ringwraiths attack; Frodo has another one of his fits of Sauronophilia and practically offers the ring to the wraiths, and we're supposed to understand that this is what changes Faramir's mind? Good Lord, if it were me I'd have taken that as proof positive that the little chump shouldn't be allowed to handle the Ring!
And not just Faramir, but Boromir and Denethor too have been ruined. There is no sense of Denethor's nobility; he is presented as an arrogant, gluttonous, abusive father. His death should be tragic, not merely sensational (and, truth be told, a relief for those watching the film).
PJ's failure to understand Frodo's character has already been noted. There should be an inner core of strength in him which is simply not there in the movies. Frodo can occasionally be a quaking wuss, sure--but in the movies he never does anything right except by accident. Elijah Wood is partly to blame for that, but the director is the one who's responsible for understanding the source material, and I don't think PJ really does.
Despite the above criticisms, I enjoyed LOTR and own the extended cuts on DVD. I will probably see The Hobbit in the theater, though it seems clear already from reading reviews that PJ botches the difference in tone between the trilogy and its prequel.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I just cannot get on with any of the books or films. I’ve tried reading LotR many times over the last 30 or so years and always given it up as a bad job at roughly the same point, just after I get sick of poems and songs and that bloke who lives in the trees.
Fair enough, I have the same reaction to Terry Pratchett's books - I tried several and finished the fifth one more by an effort of willpower than anything else. I think there's a sizeable element of people who may first have read LotR many years ago, possibly as teenagers or students, and some of the glamour we experienced at that first reading still persists. If you come to it as an adult you realize that it's a Boys Own adventure story. That's not all bad but you are more likely to see its limitations as an adult.
Tolkien went in for a lot of description, and if you skip that, and the poems, and the battles, you can read the book, although it is sort of missing out on the Tolkien Experience. With the films, the battle scenes really are best fast-forwarded through.
I haven't seen The Hobbit. I went off the idea when I discovered it was three hours long and that was only the first instalment of three. It doesn't even take three hours to read the book. I'll probably rent the DVD at some point and fast forward through the boring bits (=battles).
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I have the same reaction to Terry Pratchett's books - I tried several and finished the fifth one more by an effort of willpower than anything else.
Oh good, so it's not just me. I found the one I read thin and watery. I'm assured he got better as he went on, but based on The Color of Magic he could get a LOT better and still be not worth reading to me.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Perhaps LotR and Discworld dislike go together!
I'm not a discworld fan either. I read the first two and was mildly amused but not enough to get any others. I've borrowed some of the later ones, got part way through and just gave up.
Maybe there are similarities which explains why I don't care for them, but because I cannot read them without drifting into a coma, I cannot confirm any similarities!
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Gandalf's reasons given for bringing Bilbo along were rather weak, considering that the poor fellow was going to have to risk his life many times over. And as Bilbo's recruiter and go-to man Gandalf should have tried harder to incorporate Bilbo into the team from the start. But to be fair, it's not as though they had a lot of time. Bilbo was able to sign his last will and testament, but he wasn't even allowed to bid farewell to his loved ones! It's a good job that the dwarves ate all his food, though, because it would only have gone off if he'd had to leave it all.
The only other thing I want to say is, I thought those giant eagles were cool!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Perhaps LotR and Discworld dislike go together!
Not in this skin. I'm a huge LOTR fan. I've read the books at least 30 times through, have all the Making of Middle Earth stuff, some of which I've actually read, and so on, and so on.
I've seen one of the films (first LOTR) and detested it. Haven't seen any others.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Perhaps LotR and Discworld dislike go together!
Not in this skin. I'm a huge LOTR fan. I've read the books at least 30 times through, have all the Making of Middle Earth stuff, some of which I've actually read, and so on, and so on.
I've seen one of the films (first LOTR) and detested it. Haven't seen any others.
Me neither. I adore Discworld, totally bored of the rings.
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Annoyed. Been wanting to see Hobbit 3D for ages, but has been hard to fit in. Went today - and the times had changed. So had to watch it in 2D. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Delighted. Loved the Hobbit! Thought it was all wonderful, especially the way they kept bits of wimsey (like inventing golf) and blended with darker tones. Only bit I really wasn't sure about was the white Orc - can't be sure but don't think he's in Tolkien at all, and those bits didn't add anything.
Agree with everything that people have said about Sam in LOTR. He is the true hero, and the big message (IMHO, of course) is about the heroism of keeping going at small deeds. Which Gandalf said in the film Hobbit, but was the biggest omission of the film LOTR.
A small point, but I'd always assumed the dragon's name was pronounced Sm-or-g, but the film called him Sm-aw-g. Any thoughts?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I always thought Sm-ow-g (ow as in Led-go-you're-hurtig-be (I've been listening to the Elephant's Child)) which is what the BBC thought as well.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Presumably some of Tolkien's family are around to say what pronunciation he intended. I wonder what they think of the films?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Presumably some of Tolkien's family are around to say what pronunciation he intended. I wonder what they think of the films?
Christopher had some unhappy words about them.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Presumably some of Tolkien's family are around to say what pronunciation he intended. I wonder what they think of the films?
If I remember correctly, the family estate and the film company have engaged in litigation several times. (The family maintain that the film is merchandising tie-ins that it did not purchase rights to merchandise.)
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
I was worried about the movie after I had seen so many mixed-reviews but I have to say I liked it and overall I'm satisfied. I even want to see it again.
I got a big kick out of seeing Dale and Erebor on the big screen and seeing Rivendell (again) too but it's going to be difficult from keeping the movie versions from displacing the versions from my own imagination in my mind.
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Gandalf says something about it not being big epic sweeping gestures that defeat evil but day to day acts of love and kindness. That's nice. But if that's the message, why is the film trying its hardest to make everything epic?
At some point in the LoTR somebody, it might have been Sam, says something like they're all really just part of a bigger story. Of course when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit he had no idea things would eventually turn into a major epic but at least in a way, looking back from the perspective of both the LoTR books and the LoTR movies, it's true to how the story fits into the larger history of Middle-Earth with the Shadow upon Mirkwood and the Ring and the Necromancer and the White Council and the Battle of Five Armies and the Elves and Orcs and the Dwarves and the hey-na-na.
I lent my copy of The Lord of the Rings to a family member who saw The Hobbit movie, loved it, and now wanted to read Tolkien. If this movie turns just one more person into a Tolkien fan it will have been worth it.
[ 27. January 2013, 01:05: Message edited by: Pancho ]
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
Chiming in ...
Despite what the good Professor said, to me the hero of LotR is, and always will be, Frodo. Always. Sam is wonderful, and of course Frodo couldn't have done it without him. Team Frodo and Sam! But Frodo's determination to finish the quest to its bitter end often gets overlooked in the light of Sam's courage and heroism. Frodo is no less selfless. And he is rhe Tragic Hobbit - he loses everything, including his peace of mind, and has to leave Middle-earth in order to be healed. Sam, in direct contrast, is rewarded with a wife, family and a long, distinguished career in the Shire ... all this is Frodo's legacy to him. Sam is great, but my heart belongs to Frodo.
And LotR is very much more than a Boys Own Adventure story. It's much deeper and more serious than that. And anyway ... the presence of Eowyn alone (an awesomely feminist creation) disproves the 'Boys Own' charge. As do the Hobbits, actually - they're a very feminine, nurturing race when analysed more closely, and very open with their emotions. (They can also be myopic and insular, at their worst. Hobbits like Bilbo and Frodo buck the trend.)
I loved PJ's LotR, despite some 'WTF' moments. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) . The book has far more depth, and sometimes PJ's noisy, operatic style misses the mark, but his films are very immersive and enjoyable.
I really enjoyed An Unexpected Journey. I loved the Dinner Party and the iconic Riddle Game sequence was pretty much perfection. Gollum was wonderful - hilarious, malicious, scary as hell, and also deeply pitiable. I love Richard Armitage's casting as Thorin. And Martin Freeman ... what a wonderful Bilbo. This story is about the making of a hero. Freeman's Bilbo is the best hobbit characterisation of them all. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Yeah, lots of PJ-silliness. Fights a bit too long. Etc. But the heck ... I still loved it. .
The 48fps was a bit of a shock to the system but now I can grasp its virtues a bit more - the colours were crystal-clear and bright, and the action sequences weren't blurry!
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Nonononononononononononono! Sam is the hero. Frodo is the major point-of-view character (but there are at least four others, including Sam). The Ring is the protagonist. Gandalf is the antagonist. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Nonononononononononononono! Sam is the hero. Frodo is the major point-of-view character (but there are at least four others, including Sam). The Ring is the protagonist. Gandalf is the antagonist.
After the episode with Faramir, the POV of the Sam-and-Frodo thread shifts to Sam. Not exclusively, but predominantly and decisively.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Annoyed. Been wanting to see Hobbit 3D for ages, but has been hard to fit in. Went today - and the times had changed. So had to watch it in 2D.
Delighted. Loved the Hobbit! Thought it was all wonderful, especially the way they kept bits of wimsey (like inventing golf) and blended with darker tones. Only bit I really wasn't sure about was the white Orc - can't be sure but don't think he's in Tolkien at all, and those bits didn't add anything.
Agree with everything that people have said about Sam in LOTR. He is the true hero, and the big message (IMHO, of course) is about the heroism of keeping going at small deeds. Which Gandalf said in the film Hobbit, but was the biggest omission of the film LOTR.
A small point, but I'd always assumed the dragon's name was pronounced Sm-or-g, but the film called him Sm-aw-g. Any thoughts?
Smaug to rhyme with Cow and Sauron. It's all in the appendices to the LoTR.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
the iconic Riddle Game sequence was pretty much perfection. Gollum was wonderful - hilarious, malicious, scary as hell, and also deeply pitiable.
ISTM, the riddle game was shot as some remember it, but it was certainly skewed from the way it was actually written.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
As much as I love Sam and as much as he deserves all the praise he gets I still think that Frodo is the hero of this story. The story is told largely from Frodo's point of view, Frodo is Bilbo's heir, the story follows Frodo from the beginning to the end, and even after the Fellowship breaks up and the story line splits in two (and then three? four?) everything continues to revolve in relation to Frodo's quest.
If one was to narrow the story into three principal heroic 'types' (priest, prophet and king) then one would have Frodo in the place of 'priest' with Gandalf for 'prophet' and Aragorn for 'king'. Even then Gandalf and Aragorn's roles serve largely in support of Frodo in moving the plot along (without minimizing Gandalf and Aragorn's own stories).
Sam is awesome but much of his awesomeness comes from how he epitomizes "hobitt-ness" and all that's best about it while Frodo is a more universal figure.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Of course Aragorn is a king, but I can't see Frodo as a priest or Gandalf as a prophet - or understand why you want to drag those OT archetypes into LoTR. Priests and prophets normally have only a small background role in heroic tales; they are rarely (never?) the principal character.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
Preach it, Pancho. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Nonononononononononononono! Sam is the hero. Frodo is the major point-of-view character (but there are at least four others, including Sam) ... [/QB]
Nononononononono. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) Sam is certainly a hero, but his heroism never overshadows Frodo's. Not for me.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
After the episode with Faramir, the POV of the Sam-and-Frodo thread shifts to Sam. Not exclusively, but predominantly and decisively.
The POV shift actually happens after Frodo's imprisonment in Cirith Ungol. This is undeniable: after Cirith Ungol, oblivion starts to descend on Frodo, and Sam takes over.
Frodo's final speech to Sam, on the shores of the Grey Havens, in which he gives Sam his blessing, still makes him a major protagonist. Much as I love Sam, I will always love Frodo more.
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Of course Aragorn is a king, but I can't see Frodo as a priest or Gandalf as a prophet - or understand why you want to drag those OT archetypes into LoTR. Priests and prophets normally have only a small background role in heroic tales; they are rarely (never?) the principal character.
I'm not wanting to get into a spat about narrative perspectives, but I think that OT archetypes are not wholly out of place in Tolkien's imaginary world. (For example, the monotheism practised by the Numenoreans during the Second Age was even more austere than OT Judaism ... there isn't a temple on Numenor for the worship of Eru Iluvatar, if memory serves me correctly - it's been some years since I read The Silmarillion.)
While I'm not keen on Frodo as a Christ-figure, I do definitely see him as a pilgrim. He embodies that virtue whereby a person keeps going even if it means their own death ... doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do. Indeed all four principal Hobbits in LotR are pilgrims. Pippin's full name is Peregrin, meaning "one who journeys to foreign lands", "traveller", or "pilgrim." This is all quite deliberate on Tolkien's part.
He once wrote that LotR "is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision." Yet, unlike CS Lewis (whom I also love) Tolkien never gets preachy in his fiction. The spiritual aspects are very subtle.
Gandalf the Maia is a kind of angel, really. I'm not sure his role is prophetic but his role is to provide guidance and wisdom to those in the fight against evil.
A friend of mine once described Frodo as a tragic hero, Sam as a fairytale hero and Aragorn as a traditional hero. I like that.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
A friend of mine once described Frodo as a tragic hero, Sam as a fairytale hero and Aragorn as a traditional hero. I like that.
What is Frodo's tragic flaw?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What is Frodo's tragic flaw?
Tragic heros don't have to have a tragic flaw. The tragic flaw idea is a neoclassical simplification of some of Aristotle's critical opinions.
A tragic hero is one who suffers loss and demonstrates their greatness in doing so. A hero who wins a battle for their community but at great personal cost is tragic.
[ 30. January 2013, 19:25: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
A tragic hero is one who suffers loss and demonstrates their greatness in doing so. A hero who wins a battle for their community but at great personal cost is tragic.
Beowulf for example. A model not unknown to Tolkien I fancy.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
What they said!
If Frodo does have a tragic flaw, though, surely it is his failure to destroy the Ring. Tolkien pretty much says this in the Collected Letters, and in fact says that Frodo's internal suffering post-Quest includes guilt over his failure. Ironically, it is also Frodo's mercy to Gollum that ensures Gollum's survival and it is Gollum who - unintentionally - causes his own destruction and that of the Ring! In this matter, Frodo's wisdom - re: Gollum - was greater than Sam's. He was right to spare Gollum, just as Bilbo had.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
But at the end, Sam had Gollum all to himself, and spared him.
I don't think Frodo's failure to destroy the ring was a flaw. In the place of its forging, the ring took over. It couldn't let itself be destroyed, and its powers were at their height where Frodo was weak in body and will. Frodo could have had a will of adamant and still not prevailed over the ring. Even Elbereth's light couldn't glow in Sammath Naur. His inability to cast the ring into the Fire was no flaw. Nobody else could have, either.
[ 30. January 2013, 22:38: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Of course Aragorn is a king, but I can't see Frodo as a priest or Gandalf as a prophet - or understand why you want to drag those OT archetypes into LoTR. Priests and prophets normally have only a small background role in heroic tales; they are rarely (never?) the principal character.
I’m really not dragging any OT archetypes into LoTR . I’m pretty sure other people have picked up on these themes, too. (I feel a little like Kent Brockman on The Simpsons yelling, “It’s in Revelations, people!”)
There are many ways Frodo can be seen as a priestly figure. He is set apart: he’s the heir of Bilbo, his Brandybuck heritage makes him different and a little suspicious to other hobbits, he knows about Elves, he leads and counsels among his hobbit friends, etc, etc. He takes on a burden, the burden is sacrificial, he stands in place of the free peoples of Middle Earth, he sacrifices himself for the rest of the world. etc., etc.
There are many ways Gandalf acts as a prophet. He spends much of the story (and even in The Hobbit) exhorting, teaching, guiding. Sent from the Undying lands, he literally speaks truth to power with Theoden in Rohan and Denethor in Gondor, etc. etc. To Denethor he even declares that he too is a steward. Aragorn’s kingliness is obvious but there is a priestly aspect to him as well in his gift as a healer.
[tangent] Did nobody else notice the Marian imagery used with Galadriel in The Hobbit movie? The way she was framed in that scene in Rivendell with Gandalf at night, robed a certain way with a crescent moon in the sky giving guidence to Gandalf (just a little out of character for Gandalf too, I must say) All that was missing were candles and a blue veil……Just me then? O.k. [/end tangent]
I think Tolkien would say the Eternal Priest is the principal character in the greatest of all heroic tales of which all good fairy tales are a foreshadowing.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
Great post, Pancho. . Re: the Marian imagery, no, it's not just you! I'm not Catholic, but this imagery struck me even more strongly in the film of RotK, in which Frodo has a vision of Galadriel during his ordeal in Shelob's Lair. Again, in the Collected Letters, JRRT says that his portrayal of Galadriel
contains Marian elements - not that Galadriel is meant by him to be a representation of Mary in Middle-earth, but that there are elements.
Mousethief - I agree, on all counts. I'm the last person to criticise Frodo for not being able to destroy the Ring, no-one else could have done it either.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
[tangent] Did nobody else notice the Marian imagery used with Galadriel in The Hobbit movie?
I saw no Marian imagery, but more earth goddess. Far too much sexuality in her presentation. And sexual tension with Gandalf.
And I see Sam and Frodo as somewhat of a composite. Especially as Tolkien's depiction of hobbits is very classist in nature.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
Mousethief - I agree, on all counts. I'm the last person to criticise Frodo for not being able to destroy the Ring, no-one else could have done it either.
Why didn't Gandalf just get a lift with Gwaihir, fly straight there, dump it down Mount Doom, and fly back again?
OK there wouldn't have been much of a story, but he could have done it easily enough in an hour or so.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Because the Nazgul would have destroyed them in the air? I reckon the eagles could only get through during the confusion following the destruction of the Ring - and, even so, I expect they were taking a great risk.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
Also it's already beaten his colleague. And he was nervy about touching it before.
The temptation to just use it, even in an hour might be to much.
(also I'm not sure how long it would take, even today flying to where the Balkans is now takes 3 hours, back then was the speed of an eagle of Manwe like a plane or a normal eagle?)
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
You want Marian imagery? Tolkien rewrote the whole book so the timing would work out. The ring was destroyed on March 25, the Feast of the Annunciation, the day on which Christ became incarnate in Mary.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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