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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Lutheran Ecuminicalism
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Have you ever gotten into a discussion about whether or not Christ is create, or uncreate?
Uh, just last week.
I get people tryıng to lead me down That-Ole-Hıstory-Channel-Relıgıon Lane all the tıme. When dealıng wıth dıdn`t-Mary-Mag-screw-Jesus? and wasn`t-Judas-the-most-faıthful-dıscıple?, I fınd ıt pretty handy to escalate thıngs to the create/uncreate level.
What kınd of ıntermedıary do you want when dealıng wıth the Great-Creator God?
Some jumped up Creature? Or, the Real Deal? quote:
Is it important?
Uh. Yes, I belıeve ıt ıs—choosıng my words carefully—crucıal. quote:
It was pretty darn important at one point in time.
It stıll ıs, baby. All those Chrıstologıcal and Trınıtarıan heresıes are lıke Zombıes: They just won`t dıe.
Have you talked wıth a Jehovahs Wıtness or Mormon recently? quote:
I still think there was a better way to express that concern than what happened.
Me, too.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Uh, just last week.
I get people tryıng to lead me down That-Ole-Hıstory-Channel-Relıgıon Lane all the tıme. When dealıng wıth dıdn`t-Mary-Mag-screw-Jesus? and wasn`t-Judas-the-most-faıthful-dıscıple?, I fınd ıt pretty handy to escalate thıngs to the create/uncreate level.
My point was that most people don't talk about religion in any depth. I was not promoting a discussion about anything else.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
What a non-story. It´s their right to decided wether they should take part in prayer and worship with people of other religions or not. Obedience to the 1st commandment is a lot more important then obedience to the current politically correct trends of american liberal churches. Who cares about the LCMS reputation among "liberal christians". "Liberal christians" don´t have a great reputation among the rest of christianity either.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
If the first Commandment has to do with who you hang out with, why did Jesus cozy up to Samaritans and Roman soldiers before he even asked if they repented of their unorthodox or pagan ways?
And if the answer was that Jesus was not praying with them, I believe anyone present at the interfaith event could easily opt out of saying or meditating on prayers outside their faith.
Whose ways are more likely to woo people to the Triune Godhead: Jesus' way of being present to the "unrighteous" or the stand-aloof way of the LCMS?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
It´s their right to decided wether they should take part in prayer and worship with people of other religions or not.
Well, apparently it's NOT the pastor's right to decide, or he wouldn't have been hauled over the coals for deciding to join in, would he?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Reading this thread is confusing.
This side of the Pond we dont have the Lutherans ( of the Missouri variety) to contend with.
But we do have their side-kicks.
In my patch the local Community Christian Church is adamant about not joining in any Churches Together activities due to the same theologigal prejudices.
Their pastor ( who trained as an Anglican priest) stands aside from their stance yet simply goes along with it for wahtever reason.
Meanwhile we join in Good Friday walks and other ecumenical celebrations without them. Whoever mentioned the term "good riddance?"
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
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Posted
I think Lamb Chopped explained very clearly why this is an issue for the LC-MS. As someone on the ELCA side of the dividing line, my only squabble with the incident is the negative witness that it gives. Sometimes one's absence from such a community gathering speaks more loudly than one's presence. And the fact that the Missouri Synod President has issued a complete and thorough apology for the way he handled this indicates to me that he understands the same thing. When dealing with either ecumenical or interfaith worship, there is always a choice: you can emphasize what separates us from each other, or you can ask what do we actually believe in common. In atttempting to respond spiritually to a tragedy such as Newtown, it may not be the worst thing ever to try and articulate a prayer, however halting the language may be, to the One who knows the precious value of each and every life lost.
As far as this particular case is concerned, and realizing that we are in Hell, perhaps we've only come here to ring the doorbell, so to speak, of the one who lives here all the time, and who must be rejoicing at the seeds of confusion sown.
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Invincibly ignorant and planning to stay that way!
Posts: 1031 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Does ELCA and LCMS still bicker at each other? I remember that there was a 9-11 service where they came together at least to mourn. From my outside impression, it seems that ELCA view LCMS as a bunch of backward-thinking reactionaries while LCMS views ELCA as a bunch of dangerous liberals.
Meh, the difference between Anglicans and Lutherans as I was told is that Anglicans will tolerate all heresy to avoid schism while Lutherans will tolerate all schism to avoid heresy.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
If the first Commandment has to do with who you hang out with, why did Jesus cozy up to Samaritans and Roman soldiers before he even asked if they repented of their unorthodox or pagan ways?
And if the answer was that Jesus was not praying with them, I believe anyone present at the interfaith event could easily opt out of saying or meditating on prayers outside their faith.
Whose ways are more likely to woo people to the Triune Godhead: Jesus' way of being present to the "unrighteous" or the stand-aloof way of the LCMS?
We are not talking about "hanging around with", but participating on a religious service. I doubt Jesus would participate on a religious service with ministers of other religions. If the minister went to the event and "opted-out" during the prayers, you would be throwing even more stones. It´s impossible to please.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
It´s their right to decided wether they should take part in prayer and worship with people of other religions or not.
Well, apparently it's NOT the pastor's right to decide, or he wouldn't have been hauled over the coals for deciding to join in, would he?
When I say "their", I mean = LCMS, the denomination.
What´s the point being part of a denomination if you are not going to abide by their beliefs and rules...
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
The lutheran Church of Ethiopia has officially broken communion with the ELCA and Church Of Sweden, acording to these news: http://reporter.lcms.org/pages/rpage.asp?NavID=20867
This is the 2nd biggest lutheran church in the world, and probably the biggest if you count practicing membership (the biggest is Church Of Sweden, tough only a minority of its "members" actually has any relation with the church).
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
It´s their right to decided wether they should take part in prayer and worship with people of other religions or not.
Well, apparently it's NOT the pastor's right to decide, or he wouldn't have been hauled over the coals for deciding to join in, would he?
When I say "their", I mean = LCMS, the denomination.
What´s the point being part of a denomination if you are not going to abide by their beliefs and rules...
Dunno. I'll ask Jesus when he gets back from doing things that well-behaved Jews don't approve of.
The big problem with rules, speaking as someone who spends his life writing them, is that you end up with the rule, written in advance, becoming SO important that people want to apply the rule without considering what it's purpose was and whether it makes sense to apply it or enforce it. Especially in exceptional situations.
[ 18. February 2013, 19:49: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
gorpo: quote:
If the minister went to the event and "opted-out" during the prayers, you would be throwing even more stones.
Oh, please. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Standing or sitting quietly when someone else is saying their prayers without saying "amen" is not difficult. After 9/11 I went to an interfaith service at the local mosque. The iman, a local rabbi, a priest from the RCC, and other Christian ministers were there. The non-Muslims didn't pray to Allah or in the name of Mohammed. If they were like me, they silently prayed to the Godhead in the way they understood, prayed for healing and understanding and unity as suffering human beings. If you can't understand that, you are just a sad, sad person.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
If I recall from watching the interfaith service, I thought it was heavily geared towards Christianity. Jesus was invoked by the Christian clergy, with nary a protest from the Jewish, Muslim and other clergy.
So, I didn't think Jesus was "ignored." Far from it.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
gorpo: quote:
If the minister went to the event and "opted-out" during the prayers, you would be throwing even more stones.
Oh, please.
Standing or sitting quietly when someone else is saying their prayers without saying "amen" is not difficult. After 9/11 I went to an interfaith service at the local mosque. The iman, a local rabbi, a priest from the RCC, and other Christian ministers were there. The non-Muslims didn't pray to Allah or in the name of Mohammed. If they were like me, they silently prayed to the Godhead in the way they understood, prayed for healing and understanding and unity as suffering human beings. If you can't understand that, you are just a sad, sad person.
Of course I understand, I do the same thing when there are prayers for Mary in Catholic masses (half my family being Catholic); but I do understand that some denominations don´t want to take part in that type of services. And I just don´t see anything helpful or important at all in this type of activity. Do muslims or jewish families who lost some relatives actually care if a minister of a local protestant church is present in this type of service? Or is it just an opportunity to show up cause you know there are going to be authorities and journalists in the service? Being absent from a religious service obviously don´t mean you simply don´t care about the tragedy. If there are members of the LCMS among those directly affected by the tragedy, surely they will receive attention at their local community, which is much more effective.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Gorpo, you continue to come across as arguing why the local Lutheran minister would have been perfectly justified in not attending. Which is frankly irrelevant given that he did attend. Clearly he wanted to.
It's not denominations that attend services. It's individual people. If you're going to talk about what denominations 'do', you're going to have stop blurring the lines between official policy statements from denominational heirarchies and the actual actions of individual members of denominations.
And yes, sure, there is an issue about whether or not an individual member's actions align with official policy. But you seem to have bypassed that altogether for some theoretical world where "the Missouri Synod" is being attacked for not turning up at the service. "The Missouri Synod" was never in a position to turn up at the service, anymore than "the Republican Party" or "the NRA" or "the First National Bank" was going to turn up at the service.
[ 19. February 2013, 03:59: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I thought I had already posted this, but it now looks that the Rev. Dr. Harrison, the president of the LCMS, has come out and apologized to Rev. Morris and the people of Newtown for making such a stink about Morris' participation: Harrison's letter of apology
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Well done, Mr Harrison! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Both letters were very good. I liked this line from Mr Harrison's: quote:
The day I was elected two-and-a-half years ago, I noted that the Synod had kept its perfect record of electing sinners as presidents.
So it is with us all.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's not denominations that attend services. It's individual people.
I don't think I quite agree with this. If a member of the clergy puts on his "uniform" and stands up at the front and leads prayers or whatever, he is there representing his church. In some churches, his ministry is his Bishop's ministry, although I don't think that's quite the LCMS view.
When people who are not regular churchgoers turn to the church in time of crisis, they almost never stop to think about an individual priest or minister. They seek the comfort of the church they grew up with, or that they pass on the way to work. When people attend this kind of public interfaith service, they absolutely do see the clergy as representing their individual denominations, rather than as individual people.
If you are in military service, there are strict rules about what you can do in uniform - in particular, you are to refrain from any kind of involvement in politics. Put on a shirt and a pair of jeans, and you're free to stand on street corners waving placards.
I think a similar rule applies here. An anonymous priest dressed in mufti and standing in the "audience" can be a member of the community offering his personal support. Put him up the front and identify him as a priest in the X church, and he's there in an official capacity, on behalf of his church.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Yes, you're probably right.
But I still think, in the context of the particular story, it's pretty important to have clear separate concepts of the actions of the individual and the actions of the denomination, and not blur them all together as I think gorpo has done several times.
PS Welcome to the Ship. Hellhosts don't usually go around saying things like "welcome", but then we don't usually get people that provide thoughtful well-written posts so early on.
The rest of you, don't think I've gone soft or anything, okay?!!
[ 19. February 2013, 20:44: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
Do muslims or jewish families who lost some relatives actually care if a minister of a local protestant church is present in this type of service?
Well, actually, yes. Some do. We, most of us, are part of several communities. Ones faith community is only one. Should only be one of the several.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The rest of you, don't think I've gone soft or anything, okay?!!
aw, you big sweetie, you!
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
We might as well get angry over an RC priest getting the sack for marrying his housemaid. If that pastor has denominational rules to follow, he should follow them.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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