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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Pallium: reversion to and then change from older style
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
Quick question: one of the better bits of Papal Tat IMHO in more recent years was the Pallium that +++Benedict used in the first couple of years of his papacy - the large looped single scarf rather than the collar version. Any reasons given why the reversion to the more conventional style of the present Papal one?
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
Because it was crass liturgical archaeologism and it made the Baby Jesus cry, as any fule kno
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Because it was crass liturgical archaeologism and it made the Baby Jesus cry, as any fule kno
As I always say, Thank You Trisagion! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
You're welcome.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
It was also hard to wear- On many occasions, Ash Wednesday 2008 for example, it slipped off or would not stay properly folded.
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
It was obviously an attempt to imitate the Eastern omophorion. But Western metropolitans have not worn the omophorion for the better part of a thousand years. I always did wonder why Benedict, a paragon of liturgical taste and correctness in the Roman Rite, would have chosen to wear something so odd and out of context. Any idea, Trisagion (et al) where it came from and why it was utilised?
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
It was obviously an attempt to imitate the Eastern omophorion. But Western metropolitans have not worn the omophorion for the better part of a thousand years. I always did wonder why Benedict, a paragon of liturgical taste and correctness in the Roman Rite, would have chosen to wear something so odd and out of context. Any idea, Trisagion (et al) where it came from and why it was utilised?
Piero "Bad" Marini foisted it upon him. It never saw the light of day again after Guido "Good" Marini became papal MC.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
For the real story, rather than hate-projections and fanciful spot-the-bogeyman, see here.
I saw a rather magnificent paper by Archbishop Piero Marini, before JPII died, about trying to identify strong symbols for the Petrine ministry which were not imperial and regal, such as the tiara, but pastoral. The pallium and the ring were key elements in that. JPI had the mitre placed on his head instead of the tiara, which was a bit odd because he was already a bishop. A distinctive pallium for the Successor of Peter would be a good symbol.
That principle has been continued - today the Pope was given a distinctive pallium. As Trisagion suggests, the original distinctive one for BXVI was a bit contrived, based on ancient mosaics. It did not sit well, and looked rather clumsy. So it was replaced in 2009 (I think!) with a newer, smaller, but still distinctive design (following Abp Piero Marini's principle of a distinctive papal pallium).
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
For the real story, rather than hate-projections and fanciful spot-the-bogeyman, see here.
I saw a rather magnificent paper by Archbishop Piero Marini, before JPII died, about trying to identify strong symbols for the Petrine ministry which were not imperial and regal, such as the tiara, but pastoral. The pallium and the ring were key elements in that. JPI had the mitre placed on his head instead of the tiara, which was a bit odd because he was already a bishop. A distinctive pallium for the Successor of Peter would be a good symbol.
That principle has been continued - today the Pope was given a distinctive pallium. As Trisagion suggests, the original distinctive one for BXVI was a bit contrived, based on ancient mosaics. It did not sit well, and looked rather clumsy. So it was replaced in 2009 (I think!) with a newer, smaller, but still distinctive design (following Abp Piero Marini's principle of a distinctive papal pallium).
I'm sure that's all quite true, but the newest pallium is also quite "contrived" with the use of a larger size yoke and red crosses. I never did understand why the larger, omophorion style pallium first used by Pope Benedict was not, as in the east, affixed a few crucial points with small, nearly invisible, buttons and loops that keep the whole rig in position. Even a tiny applied point of velcro would have served the purpose.
Of course I say this because the modern pallium of the Roman church appears to be nothing more than a reduced, decorative survival of a once noble vestment. Fortunately, that same vestment can still be seen in use for the Divine Liturgy among the Orthodox and other churches of the east.
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Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Dear little lamb-ies are shorn specially for the wool which is then woven into a pallium.
They are brought to Rome live and blessed and then shorn.
I was thinking about this yesterday as I saw the pallium being applied/placed/pinned.
It is hardly primavera (Italian for "spring") in Tuscana - poor wee things!
[ 20. March 2013, 07:54: Message edited by: Galilit ]
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
Triple tiara - interesting observations about communicating the symbolism of the garment. I rather like the fuller, more scarf-like version of the pallium, partly because I think it looks prettier, and because it looks more like an adaptation of a 'real' garment than the more stylized version that looks more like a currently used. But I can see how looking like a scarf could obscure the symbolism of the garment.
Not that it is of the slightest significance, but the other reservation I have about yoke-like garments is that this is starting to look a bit like this. Death cookie anyone? ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
the original distinctive one for BXVI was a bit contrived, based on ancient mosaics. It did not sit well, and looked rather clumsy. .
According to Archbishop Peter Smith, in the BBC booth at yesterday's inauguration mass, Pope Benedict's kept falling off and had to be pinned or taped on every time if was used.
There was also talk of its symbolist - a lamb carried over the shoulders of a good shepherd. I'd never heard that before and liked it.
[ 20. March 2013, 10:18: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Oh how lovely...
I forgive them for the poor hypothermic lamby
Exits stage left humming "There were ninety and nine that safely grazed..."
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
In addition the original one for BXVI was made of both lambs wool and sheeps wool, to give reference to "feed my lambs, feed my sheep".
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Inanna
Ship's redhead
# 538
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Posted
Interestingly enough, they changed the mosaic of Benedict XVI in St. Paul's Outside the Walls so that he is no longer wearing the old style pallium, but the newer one.
Pictures are here about halfway down the page.
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All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.
Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001
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