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Source: (consider it) Thread: Language Revival
Pancho
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# 13533

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This was reported at the end of last year but I only read about it recently: the number of Welsh speakers is declining. I'm surprised because I thought the Welsh language revival was relatively successful.

The one truly successful case of language revival that I can think of is that of Modern Hebrew. I think there might have been some minor successes with a few other languages like Hawaiian and, or so I thought until recently, Welsh but now I'm not so sure.

What do shipmates thing about language revival? What are the prospects for endangered and heritage* languages where you live? Has anyone here attempted to learn a endangered or heritage language?

*By 'heritage language' I mean a language that was spoken recently or in the past by your family. See the Wikipedia article.

[ 28. September 2013, 18:47: Message edited by: Pancho ]

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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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Pyx_e

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Welsh can't compete with Smash Hits.

Or put another way 99.9% of the fun language input is in English, the tradition can never win.

A bit like Christianity, it is something for later life.

Fly Safe, Pyx_e

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the giant cheeseburger
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It can be a good thing - in South Australia a few years ago we suffered from a lack of people able to perform Pitjantjatjara/English translation services for when native speakers of the Pitjantjatjara language came before the courts. Through a teaching program that particular problem of the court system failing Pitjantjatjara people is not a problem any longer.

It comes with dangers though, a local group in the Adelaide area made the misguided decision that their best contribution to the cause of White/Indigneous Reconciliation would be to have somebody teach them some of the Kaurna language. They then went off and showed off their new skills, and got promptly slapped down by actual Kaurna people for being patronising and not first asking what would be considered most useful before charging ahead with their language classes.

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Try
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Hebrew is an interesting exception to the rule of language revival because it was NOT a declining heritage language like Welsh or Gaelic. The Jewish equivalents of those languages are Yiddish and Ladino, both of which are still in steep decline. Hebrew was a dead language preserved in liturgy and scripture, very much like Latin. No one had spoken Hebrew as their native tongue in over 1800 years when Jewish settlers in Palestine began using it.

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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger

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Galilit
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Urdu in Pakistan.
Maori in New Zealand.

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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Pancho
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# 13533

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quote:
Originally posted by Try:
Hebrew is an interesting exception to the rule of language revival because it was NOT a declining heritage language like Welsh or Gaelic. The Jewish equivalents of those languages are Yiddish and Ladino, both of which are still in steep decline. Hebrew was a dead language preserved in liturgy and scripture, very much like Latin. No one had spoken Hebrew as their native tongue in over 1800 years when Jewish settlers in Palestine began using it.

That's a good point, that Hebrew was a scholar's and liturgical language although I suppose some Jews might still consider it a heritage in the sense that it's a part of their ethnic heritage. What is also interesting is that the revival of Hebrew may have come at the expense of Yiddish and Ladino.

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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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anteater

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It depends on why it declined. Where it was due to political oppression, I think it is likely to bounce back as is the case with Catalan.

In the case of Irish, I don't think it was ever proscribed, but most of the speakers were removed by death or immigration due to the potato famine, and it is doubtful if it can reach a critical mass now.

It's interesting to add the disappearance of dialects, which have to be pretty strong to survive the homogenising effects of mass communications. There are no real dialects now in the UK. A status check of other countries would be interesting.

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Garasu
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quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
There are no real dialects now in the UK.

Not sure. I've run into several occasions of incomprehension. In the sense that they've always been resolvable by recourse to the hegemonic linguistic system, then sure. But they weren't the native language of either speaker...

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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.

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LeRoc

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I am speaker of a Lower Saxon dialect that is sadly dying out. Some money is being put into trying to save it, but there are almost no children who still speak it.

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Porridge
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I tried to learn (on my own) Scots Gaelic, as my grandfather hailed from a village on the outskirts of either Glasgow or Edinburgh (I've forgotten which, he's no longer piping with us, and I think the village has now vanished or been re-named).

I was stopped cold in my tracks by lenitives and other linguistic paraphernalia. I think I'd need a teacher, plus some others to speak with fairly regularly.

That said, I think the loss of any language renders us all poorer. I have what amounts to a superstitious sense that thoughts and insights probably exist which can only be expressed in their language of origin.

Mebbe there's something to back this notion up, but if so, I haven't come across it.

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
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Palimpsest
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I heard an interesting lecture on Cherokee at a typography conference I went to several years ago. Cherokee has an independent written /Cherokee syllabary which was used to print the Bible and a newspaper.

A few years ago Cherokee was going out of common usage for reading and writing, only a few old people used it. The tribe decided to revive it. The speaker was responsible for teaching a high school graphic design course. They created a typefaces using in part type sorts that had been tossed down a well near the printer's house when he came home from work and cleared out his pockets.

In addition to teaching the high school students to design books, the elementary school students are being taught to read and speak the language. It's very impressive to see a vision that says, we'll start making books, and we'll have an audience in ten years when they grow up.

I'm not sure how much having a written form is critical to survival but it may be. There's also a good documentary by a linguist who was a Massachusetts Pequod Indian who is reviving language from written records of the colonial period.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:

That said, I think the loss of any language renders us all poorer. I have what amounts to a superstitious sense that thoughts and insights probably exist which can only be expressed in their language of origin.

I do not think this is superstitious. Language and culture are intertwined. Even between two extant languages, the concepts can be translated, but the feel, the essence is much more difficult.
Saving a language whilst the culture dies is worth an effort, but only part of the whole still exists.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Sergius-Melli
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Interesting questions...

Fundamentally it is about the ethos behind the revival, the extent to which you push the revival and how you go about doing it.

I think the problem with Welsh revivalism (or recent lack thereof) is the manner in which millions of pounds has been funnelled away from the NHS and education to fund the translation of documents which don't need translating, as well as the appointment of a language Tsar who acts outside of the democratic process, things which have caused resentment and frustration amongst the majority of the population of Wales... When Welsh Language fanatics take over shopping centres and cause mayhem until the demands of a minority are met it doesn't do much to foster an attraction to the cause.

The other issue is that it is being forced upon young people in schools, something which is always capable of causing a less than satisfactory desire to learn or continue to use a language, thereby continuing to contribute towards a reduction in the revival of the language...

Interestingly for me I have seen the other way of doing language revival with my own Manx, where the approach is very much more relaxed, being a labour of love rather than dictate as in Wales, which has seemingly produced an environment on the Isle of Man where people will willingly learn some of the basic bits and pieces and those who truly love go on to a daily fluency, language revival may be going slowly but it is not costing the earth as in Wales, nor being taken to ridiculous levels as in Wales either...

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Jane R
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Porridge:
quote:
I have what amounts to a superstitious sense that thoughts and insights probably exist which can only be expressed in their language of origin.

Mebbe there's something to back this notion up, but if so, I haven't come across it.

Ah, the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis! AKA linguistic relativity.

The current Received Wisdom is that the language you speak does influence some cognitive processes - spatial perception, for example - but the strong version of the hypothesis isn't supported by any research evidence.

However, learning another language is very good for you due to the bilingual advantage.

The problems with maintaining a minority or heritage language are, as you say, finding someone to learn it from in the first place and secondly, finding other people to use it with. Welsh has been under extreme pressure for centuries - it hasn't changed much since the 12th century, which is a bad sign - and despite efforts from the Welsh government to communicate in both Welsh and English and to encourage Welsh-language education, it's not carved out an exclusive domain. I'd be surprised if there were any monolingual Welsh speakers; it's probably impossible to get a job without knowing English as well.

I do wonder if (paradoxically) greater independence from Westminster may have something to do with it. When Wales was treated as simply an extension of England, learning to speak Welsh could be an expression of political defiance; now that Wales has some political autonomy, perhaps fewer people are inclined to learn Welsh for political reasons.

[ 29. September 2013, 10:03: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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Morlader
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Morladres and I decided to learn Cornish as we were in a choir that sang evensongs* in Cornish and we like to understand what we are singing. We were created language Bards in 2000.
Cornish is a revived (reviving?) language and is subject to some of the problems mentioned above: it is difficult, after completing the formal courses and exams, to find people to converse with; there are no tv programs and only 5mins a week on BBC Radio Cornwall and enthusiasts bicker about how to write the language.
I'd like to raise one thing about reviving/endangered/minority languages not mentioned so far. Even if a language hasn't actually been banned by a conquering power there is often a reluctance by "locals" to speak it as it is seen as a peasant language - if you want to progress you adopt the language and other characteristics of the rulers.

* Ironic, as it was the imposition of the English Prayer Book which at least hastened (arguably caused) the demise of Cornish. We should've been singing Vespers.

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.. to utmost west.

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pererin
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I find Cornish faintly amusing, because it looks rather too much like mediaeval Welsh. It has that "should be intelligible" look about it, and then one hits the occasional not-a-clue word. It's rather the same experience as trying to read Scots.

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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)

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Chorister

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In Wales they have to learn Welsh in school. And, as with everything you HAVE to do in school....

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
... it is difficult, after completing the formal courses and exams, to find people to converse with; there are no tv programs and only 5mins a week on BBC Radio Cornwall and enthusiasts bicker about how to write the language. ...

Do you use it in the home?

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pererin
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
In Wales they have to learn Welsh in school. And, as with everything you HAVE to do in school....

And second-language Welsh is taught to about the same standard as French or German. And we know how effective teaching those is...

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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
I find Cornish faintly amusing, because it looks rather too much like mediaeval Welsh. It has that "should be intelligible" look about it, and then one hits the occasional not-a-clue word. It's rather the same experience as trying to read Scots.

Sounds like Middle English. I preferred either Anglo-Saxon, which was obviously another language, or Chaucer - where you're essentially home and dry in modern English.

I try to retain the Anglo-Irish dialect of my childhood - though after mumble decades in Scotland I have a certain uptake of a Lallans. I love the connectedness to the past language affords. Times I just sit and blow the dust off fossilised similies and think of when life contained pitch and horses and pigs and whetstones and brass buttons and whey. I dislike the current phase of abstract, polysyllabic, circumlocutory techno-English.

But it never stops. If it did, we'd all be speaking proto-Sanskrit. If you do manage to drag a language back into currency, it too will continue to morph, merge, borrow, corrupt and become something other.

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Morlader
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We used to speak Cornish in the pub when it was full of tourists ("A vynnta mos dhe'n dre?" - Do you want to go home?) as a sort of private language, but latterly at home? Only rarely. There are some Cornish idioms which don't work nearly so well in English, so we might use them sometimes.

There is a "Yeth an werrin" (People chat) monthly in a fairly local pub but we haven't been for a long time.

There is of course good reason why Cornish might look like mediaeval Welsh: they were the same language for centuries before the Saxons drove them back either side of the Severn. But modern lithographies look quite different.

We were disappointed to hear so little Breton/Welsh when we visted Brittany/Wales some time ago. French/English imperialism!

Kemmereugh wyth, onan hag oll. (Take care, one and all).

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.. to utmost west.

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pererin
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# 16956

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I just love that Cornish uses a verb that's obviously a cognate of mynnu as its normal verb "to want". [Smile] Its tone to me is more in line with:

"Canys ni chwenychi aberth; pe amgen, mi a’i rhoddwn: poethoffrwm ni fynni."

(Take a "vein" too! That's exactly the thing I meant about Cornish — so "(g)wyth" means care, and not vein...)

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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)

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quetzalcoatl
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People in Ireland who spoke fluent Irish used to get grants - maybe they still do. There were all kinds of stories about seeing a guy in a suit, and starting to speak Irish, as he might be checking up from the govt.

I think it was proscribed at various periods? In N. Ireland wasn't it banned in schools for a period?

But there are supposed to be kids in Dublin now who speak a new urban dialect, use it in texts and so on.

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Morlader
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quote:
Originally posted by pererin:

(Take a "vein" too! That's exactly the thing I meant about Cornish — so "(g)wyth" means care, and not vein...)

Hope I'm not taking the tangent too far: gwyth means both care and vein. Some spellings have gwith for care, and care=gwyth/gwith is masculine but vein=gwyth is feminine.

On Irish, I was told that when Ireland joined the EU she was offered Irish as her language for communications, but said she would use English. Dunno if she could've had both, but I got that impression at the time. Not exactly a blow for Celtic language preservation, was it? [Disappointed]

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.. to utmost west.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
On Irish, I was told that when Ireland joined the EU she was offered Irish as her language for communications, but said she would use English. Dunno if she could've had both, but I got that impression at the time. Not exactly a blow for Celtic language preservation, was it? [Disappointed]

But what would be the point? The Irish fisheries minister is hardly going to speak to his Greek counterpart in Irish Gaelic, is he?

Is there such a problem in having one language for administration and another for cultural stuff? I've never been able to understand, for example, why it's such a triumph for a Welshman to be able to claim the dole in Welsh. What's achieved by this?

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Chamois
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# 16204

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Originally posted by Morlader:
quote:
On Irish, I was told that when Ireland joined the EU she was offered Irish as her language for communications, but said she would use English. Dunno if she could've had both, but I got that impression at the time. Not exactly a blow for Celtic language preservation, was it?
My father came from County Cork in the far west of Ireland, and his family were native Irish speakers. He was utterly opposed to the Irish Republic's making learning Irish compulsory in schools. He told me that the language didn't have a modern vocabulary, so practically all you could talk about was farming, fishing and fighting, unless you were prepared to use a lot of loan words from another language. "What's the point of that?" he used to ask, "The kids would be much better off spending the time learning Spanish or Japanese which will be some use to them in their careers and help the Irish economy."

He refused to teach me or my sister any Irish. "Concentrate on your French" he said (my school didn't teach Spanish or Japanese).

I suspect the Irish government shared his views on what was best, language-wise, for their economy.

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Albertus
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# 13356

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I've never been able to understand, for example, why it's such a triumph for a Welshman to be able to claim the dole in Welsh. What's achieved by this?

I won't answer that directly- I'll let a native Welsh-speaker do so- although part of the answer is probably about the kind of assumptions about the normativeness of English that are inherent in your question.
But I suspect that people may be more happy to use another language for administrative purposes if it is not the same language that they associate with cultural or political domination. For example, I understand that many people in south India are happier to use English than Hindi- the latter being associated with north Indian dominance.
I have long favoured, semi-seriously, making Latin the sole language of EU administration. (It'd piss off the Greeks, of ccourse, but so what?). The Welsh, BTW, might well be happy with Latin as an administrative language- pride in the Romano-British inheritance is not quite dead here!

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Jonah the Whale

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# 1244

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
In Wales they have to learn Welsh in school. And, as with everything you HAVE to do in school....

My nephew lives in Wales, right on the English border, and has always gone to school in England. I asked him last year how much Welsh he knew. "None" he said. OK, but you must know the Welsh for "slow" or "school" or "weak bridge". No, he shrugged. He must have gone past signs with that in both languages almost every day of his life. I've been past them only when I've visited my sister, but I still know them. It depends how curious you are.
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Try
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# 4951

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Hebrew is an interesting exception to the rule of language revival because it was NOT a declining heritage language like Welsh or Gaelic. The Jewish equivalents of those languages are Yiddish and Ladino, both of which are still in steep decline. Hebrew was a dead language preserved in liturgy and scripture, very much like Latin. No one had spoken Hebrew as their native tongue in over 1800 years when Jewish settlers in Palestine began using it.

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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger

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Albertus
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# 13356

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quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
My nephew lives in Wales, right on the English border, and has always gone to school in England. I asked him last year how much Welsh he knew. "None" he said. OK, but you must know the Welsh for "slow" or "school" or "weak bridge". No, he shrugged. He must have gone past signs with that in both languages almost every day of his life. I've been past them only when I've visited my sister, but I still know them. It depends how curious you are.

My sister spent three years at Aberystwyth University in the 90s and helped with a Brownie pack in which many of the girls spoke Welsh as a first language. As far as I can tell, she learnt no Welsh, and certainly didn't take any Welsh lessons, although they would have been easily enough available. Given that she was reading Maths and French -so one might expect some interest in languages- I still find that incredible.
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Jane R
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Chamois:
quote:
My father came from County Cork in the far west of Ireland, and his family were native Irish speakers. He was utterly opposed to the Irish Republic's making learning Irish compulsory in schools. He told me that the language didn't have a modern vocabulary, so practically all you could talk about was farming, fishing and fighting, unless you were prepared to use a lot of loan words from another language. "What's the point of that?" he used to ask...
Living languages borrow from each other all the time. English, which is probably the least endangered language in the world, has a huge number of loan words (cue the old joke about English luring other languages down an alley and mugging them for any spare vocabulary). But this is one of the problems with minority and endangered languages; if all interactions with the government, public discourse, shopping, talking to your neighbours, schooling, etc. etc. are carried out in the dominant language there's no reason to develop a vocabulary for these activities in the endangered language (that was what I was getting at in my comment about language domains in my earlier post, Morlander, which you may have missed). And speakers of the endangered language (like Chamois' dad) resist borrowing words from the dominant language because it feels like giving in to The Enemy... so the number of things you can talk about in the endangered language shrinks, and so it goes on. This can happen even if the speakers of the dominant language aren't actively trying to suppress the minority language.

The other problem with reviving Celtic languages such as Welsh, Irish and Cornish is that they aren't very closely related to English - behind the false beard of all those loanwords lurks a West Germanic language. So a native speaker of English learning Welsh will find it more difficult than learning French (huge amount of shared vocabulary) or German (also a West Germanic language, with similarities in grammar and a lot of shared vocabulary). It's not because the language itself is inherently more difficult than English; it's because you can't use much of what you know about English to work out The Rules for Welsh (Cornish, Irish...)

[ 30. September 2013, 09:30: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Fi hefyd/me too.

Should I put my hand up? I'm learning (and have been for some time; it's very hard in the middle of Derbyshire) the aforementioned minority language.

But I am quite strange. When people ask me why on earth I'd learn such a useless language (everyone over the age of 5 who speaks it outside of Patagonia also speaks English, the answer is simply that it seems an obvious choice, since it's a native language of the islands I live in. Clearly that's not a normal way of thinking, seeing as it's not sufficient for 3/4 of the Welsh population, let alone anyone else, but it's always seemed a very good reason to me.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Alaric the Goth
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# 511

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I have always found the Celtic languages intersting, as Karl has said, because of them having been spoken in this part of the world for a long time.

I tried to learn some Irish when at university (the student Irish Society did a series of classes, but it was my final year and I didn't really have the time to learn it 'properly'*).

Since then I've dabbled with Scots Gaelic and Welsh.

(* Karl first started learning Welsh at this time: if I'd tried also we could have practised our Cymraeg and both improved! And it is a bit easier to learn it (IMHO) than the Goidelic languages!)

I should learn Cornish as I have some Cornish ancestry.

Bring back Visigothic! (Atta unsar, thu in himinam, weichnai namo thein...!)

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ArachnidinElmet
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# 17346

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Fi hefyd/me too.

Should I put my hand up? I'm learning (and have been for some time; it's very hard in the middle of Derbyshire) the aforementioned minority language...

I tried to learn Welsh in my teens (off the back of wholesale consumption of Celtic fantasy books: Susan Cooper anybody?). I let it drop (although I can just about remember how to say "I'm an English Women and am learning Welsh", despite no longer being true) but have always remained interested in all things Cymric. As posted above, learning a language is often inextricably linked to its culture.

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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka

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Albertus
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You do appear to live in the most Welsh part of Yorkshire.

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pererin
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# 16956

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Probably the hardest thing about Welsh is word order. It's a very different mindset that in a non-emphatic sentence the verb goes first. Unless people know Hebrew (yeah, right...), it's going to seem very strange to them, and they're going to have to fight the urge to construct sentences "John brynodd lyfr" ("It-was-John-and-not-someone-else-who bought a book") rather than "prynodd John lyfr" ("John bought a book").

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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)

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Sighthound
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# 15185

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I think Welsh is very important indeed to the people who speak it, as it's tied up with their culture and history.

However, it's of very little practical use to anyone else. Unless (like me) you are interested in Welsh history and culture. I'd like to learn it, but only because of that.

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Bob Two-Owls
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Dwi ddim yn siarad Cymraeg ond dwi'n trio dysgu. I like Welsh as a language even if I am abysmal learning it. Being ex-Scottish I love my adopted county and the pre-saxon place names that have survived such as Crich, Pentrich and Mam Tor. I also love Anglo-Saxon but never got very far with the tortuous grammar that I was presented with at university.
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Gwai
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# 11076

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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
Dwi ddim yn siarad Cymraeg ond dwi'n trio dysgu.

Translation please!

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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
You do appear to live in the most Welsh part of Yorkshire.

I'm not totally convinced by the traditional version of English history, that somewhere around 450 two people called Hengist and Horsa acquired territory in Kent. Then the Anglo Saxons came over the sea in huge numbers and drove everyone who was there before into Wales and Cornwall.

If you read between the lines, it's fairly clear that they didn't really begin to get much control over anywhere west of a line from Southampton to Newcastle, including the plain of York until about 600.

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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The latest census, while still showing a drop in the number of Gaelic speakers in Scotland, is showing positive signs - the proportion of children with some Gaelic is picking up - and this is a reflection of the huge growth in Gaelic Medium Education. This is happening not just in traditionally Gaelic areas but in the big cities too. So much so that it is increasingly difficult to recruit suitably qualified staff at Gaelic Medium schools. Gaelic has a bright future, I think.
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crunt
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# 1321

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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
Dwi ddim yn siarad Cymraeg ond dwi'n trio dysgu.

Translation please!
I don't speak Welsh, but I am trying to learn (it).

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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Rydw i'n siarad tipyn bach Cymraeg. (I speak a little bit Welsh.) I made an effort to learn a bit when I was living in Swansea. At least I still remember how to say 'Slow'.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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marzipan
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I didn't see the census form, so just wondering... was the 'do you understand welsh' question only asked of people who live in wales or also the rest of the country?
Quite a few of the people who learn welsh in school would move to other parts of the UK for university/jobs, that doesn't mean they don't speak welsh it just means they're not counted.
Ten years ago I would have counted myself fluent, now I'm trying to learn irish off street signs... the spelling is so illogical compared to welsh!

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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Hah! Irish Gaelic is simplified compared with Scottish Gaelic...
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marzipan
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Whereas welsh is phonetic (most of the time)
I would progress better in my learning of Irish if I made friends with people who actually bother to speak it. Most people here seem to have learnt it in school and abandoned it as soon as exams were over...

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Metapelagius
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# 9453

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
You do appear to live in the most Welsh part of Yorkshire.

I'm not totally convinced by the traditional version of English history, that somewhere around 450 two people called Hengist and Horsa acquired territory in Kent. Then the Anglo Saxons came over the sea in huge numbers and drove everyone who was there before into Wales and Cornwall.

If you read between the lines, it's fairly clear that they didn't really begin to get much control over anywhere west of a line from Southampton to Newcastle, including the plain of York until about 600.

I quite agree - Devon a century and more later, and Cumberland even later than that. A plausible if unorthodox alternative suggested a while back by the scholar cleric Arthur Wade-Evans is that the earliest Germanic settlers in Britain were Roman soldiers recruited in 'Germania' and given land as retired veterans. These then invited relations from 'back home' to cross over and join them. The Saxon domination of what was to become England was therefore gradual rather than fire and sword and terrified ancient Britons rushing off the moment 'Hengist and Horsa' (i.e. Stallion and Horse, rather bizarre names) appeared, to hide in the Welsh mountains, if they hadn't been hacked to death in the meantime.

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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.

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pererin
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# 16956

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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
Dwi ddim yn siarad Cymraeg ond dwi'n trio dysgu.

Translation please!
Gall Gwgl gyfieithu brawddegau syml yn weddol dda.

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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)

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Carys

Ship's Celticist
# 78

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Morlader:
[qb]
Is there such a problem in having one language for administration and another for cultural stuff? I've never been able to understand, for example, why it's such a triumph for a Welshman to be able to claim the dole in Welsh. What's achieved by this?

The problem is that the administrative language tends to have prestige which weakens the 'cultural' language further. I claimed the dole in Welsh when I was unemployed because it is the historic language of this land and its lack of official status since 1536/42 is a major reason for its current parlous state. I learnt Welsh as an adult but for many of my friends it is very much their first language & although they can speak English, they are translating from Welsh to do so. I also took my driving test on Welsh.

Carys

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Russ
Old salt
# 120

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quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
Originally posted by Morlader:
quote:
On Irish, I was told that when Ireland joined the EU she was offered Irish as her language for communications, but said she would use English. Dunno if she could've had both, but I got that impression at the time. Not exactly a blow for Celtic language preservation, was it?
My father came from County Cork in the far west of Ireland, and his family were native Irish speakers. He was utterly opposed to the Irish Republic's making learning Irish compulsory in schools. He told me that the language didn't have a modern vocabulary, so practically all you could talk about was farming, fishing and fighting, unless you were prepared to use a lot of loan words from another language. "What's the point of that?" he used to ask, "The kids would be much better off spending the time learning Spanish or Japanese which will be some use to them in their careers and help the Irish economy."

He refused to teach me or my sister any Irish. "Concentrate on your French" he said (my school didn't teach Spanish or Japanese).

I suspect the Irish government shared his views on what was best, language-wise, for their economy.

The way I heard it, after the economic downturn, they had Irish Gaelic declared an official EU language, thereby creating jobs for Gaelic-speakers in the Brussels bureaucracy, translating all EU documents into Gaelic versions that no-one will ever read.

We get mixed signals as to whether Gaelic is declining or increasing in popularity. There are a number of small rural areas designated "Gaeltacht" - sort of Gaelic-language reservations. Censuses and surveys consistently show a declone in the proportion of residents of these areas who speak Gaelic in the home on an everyday basis. But the number of children sent to Gaelic-language schools is increasing, and there are more such schools in existence across the country

It's like the Irish have bilingualism as an ideal that they want for their children but can't be bothered with themselves.

Best wishes,

Russ

For those

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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