|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Can you read music?
|
ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Keren-Happuch:
Yes, me too. Learnt to read music at the age of 5 and can't improvise for toffee. I have never used written scores for singing though, so I can learn songs by ear. Can't learn instrumental music by ear.
^This. I learnt to read music quite early, firstly with my classmates (no one so far has mentioned the ubiquitous primary school chime bar), then playing the different kinds of recorders, finally guitar, chords first then classical. I'm terrible without music on an instrument, but don't know enough theory to be very adaptable quickly. During hymn playing I've found coping mechanisms; playing the tune and harmony on my guitar instead of chords in some cases sidesteps problems but is really laziness.
Singing, however, I've never learnt formally, can just about sing to music, but can pick things up easily by ear and can change tunes as necessary.
I really don't know why it should be so different, but am glad to hear I'm not alone.
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
This came up in discussion today, and I was surprised by the number of my interlocutors who could not read music.
I was under the impression that most people learned music at school (even if it was just playing the recorder) and so therefore would have at least a rudimentary knowledge of musical notation.
So can you read music? Are my expectations ridiculous?
(If it makes a difference, all the people present for the discussion had college degrees.)
Sadly, there are multiple members of my church's choir who have no informal or formal musical training and never learned basics like the relative length of notes as they are written.
Which leads to my next question, which is why would anyone think it's OK to jump into a worship activity where one has no training or natural talent?
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
quote:
posted by Mockingale
...why would anyone think it's OK to jump into a worship activity where one has no training or natural talent?
I can think of 2 reasons (if that word can be applied accurately) for this in relation to church choirs/worship music groups.
1. They are an individual who has the belief that if "The Lord" is calling them to something, then a little matter of complete lack of talent or ability should be no bar. IME These people should be kept out of worship groups at all costs - their desire to run the group or set the agenda is inevitably in inverse proportion to their aptitude for it in the first place.
2. The cleric/pastor at the church holds the same view and is quite happy not only to allow such individuals to put themselves forward but positively encourages them: they then expect the poor sap charged with running the music side to be able to cope with the consequences of their, the pastor's, folly.
Allowing people with no talent for it into a music group can be not only time consuming and demoralising for those already in it, in time it can (and does) cause people of talent to leave and go elsewhere.
Now I'm not saying that people who present without the ability to read music should be turned away - I've taught people to read music into their 70s and, I hope, given them a source of fulfilment and pleasure in the process.
But someone who cannot reproduce a note played on a piano, who cannot make at least a reasonable attempt to clap out a rhythm - these people are, IME, beyond being able to be absorbed into a small (under 40 members) music group and will only damage the morale of members if they are allowed in.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
Dal Segno: Once we both transposed: he said "it's written in A♭, you play it as if it were written in A, I'll transpose down to G."
I once heard: "it's written in A♭, but you play it as if it were written in A, because this organ is so old that it can only be tuned a semitone flat" ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
But someone who cannot reproduce a note played on a piano, who cannot make at least a reasonable attempt to clap out a rhythm - these people are, IME, beyond being able to be absorbed into a small (under 40 members) music group and will only damage the morale of members if they are allowed in.
*sigh* Yeah, we've got a couple of them, too. I'm torn between feeling that they're nice people that want to offer praise to God in this way, and feeling that I have to sing twice as loud to keep the tone-deaf guy from dragging down the people who sing by ear.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
|
Posted
Of course, it's a nice congregation, far too nice to say to the talentless ones "You know what, I bet you'd do a great job in Altar Guild or setting up coffee hour."
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
Which leads to my next question, which is why would anyone think it's OK to jump into a worship activity where one has no training or natural talent?
I think one crucial reason is that people don't see any difference between participating in worship by being a member of the congregation and facilitating that worship by being part of the music group.
(I might add that even some people WITH at least a bit of musical skill don't seem to understand that they need to develop skills in facilitating, not merely stand up and play because they like playing and treat the congregation as a passive audience.)
[ 10. October 2013, 03:04: Message edited by: orfeo ]
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Piglet
Islander
# 11803
|
Posted
I was lucky enough to grow up in Orkney in the 1970s when my father was the director of education, and being very keen on music (he sang in various choirs and played the trombone), his policy was that every child should have access to at least one class-music lesson per week (and most of us had two). Also, instrumental tuition was freely available to any child who wanted it (and many instruments were available on loan).
I was sent to piano lessons from the age of about 7 (and later recorder, fiddle and flute lessons), which I suppose is where I learned to read music, and I can't imagine not being able to read it. For a long time I didn't reckon much to my sight-reading abilities, but now with over 30 years of singing in cathedral choirs I reckon I'm not too bad (having played instruments helps, even though I wasn't all that good at them).
--------------------
I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
David
Complete Bastard
# 3
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Aside from C, F, and G, time signatures are a mystery to me.
That would be a very funny comment if it was meant as such.
Posts: 3815 | From: Redneck Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Aside from C, F, and G, time signatures are a mystery to me.
That would be a very funny comment if it was meant as such.
I think he meant key signatues.
--------------------
Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
|
Posted
I'm a pretty good sightsinger and have done a lot of choral singing. I also played various instruments as a kid - most successfully the flute. Wrt how music transfers from the page into my brain, I generally look at the music, mentally transfer the notes into my fingers as if playing them on the flute, and sing what comes into my head as I do that - which is usually the right notes. Anyone who watches carefully will see that my fingers are moving around on the back of the score as though playing an imaginary and very weirdly-shaped flute.
--------------------
Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
quote:
Ken:
Guitars can play anything but ...
... will throw a huge hissy fit if it's in Eb and they don't have a capo handy
I disagree, there are some really nice voicings of E♭ with the left hand up the neck but with the G string open.
But that requires learning different voicings. Have you no sympathy?!
Actually, I must admit I don't mind Eb, but would prefer not when on the guitar, and especially when on the bass, because it makes me think too much.
--------------------
Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
balaam: I disagree, there are some really nice voicings of E♭ with the left hand up the neck but with the G string open.
In Brazilian guitar playing, you usually avoid open strings, regardless of the key. So, E♭ playing is as easy as playing in E; you just move your hand one fret down.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
quote:
Ken:
Guitars can play anything but ...
... will throw a huge hissy fit if it's in Eb and they don't have a capo handy
I disagree, there are some really nice voicings of E♭ with the left hand up the neck but with the G string open.
But that requires learning different voicings. Have you no sympathy?!
Actually, I must admit I don't mind Eb, but would prefer not when on the guitar, and especially when on the bass, because it makes me think too much.
Is it time then for the Barre Frettings From Hell?
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
David
Complete Bastard
# 3
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
quote:
Originally posted by David:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Aside from C, F, and G, time signatures are a mystery to me.
That would be a very funny comment if it was meant as such.
I think he meant key signatues.
You're kidding.
Posts: 3815 | From: Redneck Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
quote:
Originally posted by David:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Aside from C, F, and G, time signatures are a mystery to me.
That would be a very funny comment if it was meant as such.
I think he meant key signatues.
Actually I meant key signatures. Not sure what key signatues are. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
Alex Cockell: Is it time then for the Barre Frettings From Hell?
Not necesssarily. Balaam mentioned voicings with an open G string and the other fingers high up the neck, so I'm guessing he means something like this:
11
11
0
13
x
x
In Brazilian guitar playing, open strings are usually avoided, so I would normally start playing an E♭ like this:
x
8
7
8
6
x
(This makes it an E♭M⁷.) There's nothing difficult in putting your fingers like this.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
quote:
posted by mousethief
... Not sure what key signatues are.
I heard an amateur orchestra like that once. About half seemed to be playing in the right key, the rest were split between the minor key, C major and no key at all. I'm sure it was no accident that their conductor wore two hearing aids. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Anyway, the result would have made Baby Jesus weep. Long-suffering relatives of players in-the-know wore discreet ear-plugs at concerts.
On the other hand, they made a fortune selling alcohol during the interval
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
quote:
Originally posted by David:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Aside from C, F, and G, time signatures are a mystery to me.
That would be a very funny comment if it was meant as such.
I think he meant key signatues.
Actually I meant key signatures. Not sure what key signatues are.
Doh! ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Note to self: when trying to be helpful, and in danger of being seen to be patronising, just make sure you get the spelling right!
--------------------
Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
I can read and sight-sing well, and play a decent enough "accompanist's piano" in order to get a choral ensemble through a rehearsal (I conducted a church choir before sidling into the clergy).
I'm fairly good at score-reading and knowing how it ought to sound, although at about the mid-nineteenth century I start to find it increasingly difficult to hear the details of the harmony, voice-leading, etc in my head. Rhythm is still easy, and tone-color, but once composers start pulling really hard at the seams of tonality I just start to "hear" it as gesture.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
|
Posted
Where and when I went to public elementary school, everyone was taught to read music. We had a music teacher come into our class twice a week in grade 1 and 2, teach us the basics: how to read treble clef "Every Good Boy Does Fine" and F-A-C-E, the time signatures and major keys. We even had those special chalk tools that made a staff. Those who showed interest and aptitude went on to learn recorder and then a band instrument. Some others went on to glee club. It was simply part of the curriculum.
Sadly, all of that, as well as the other art classes we had, has been cut. There are no more music teachers, no recorders, no band instruments until Grade 7 (ages 12-13).
It's been a topic of discussion at church because more and more younger newcomers can't read the music in our hymnals. We're trying to figure out ways to teach hymns to people who can't read music in a way that doesn't disrupt the flow of the mass.
--------------------
"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
It's been a topic of discussion at church because more and more younger newcomers can't read the music in our hymnals. We're trying to figure out ways to teach hymns to people who can't read music in a way that doesn't disrupt the flow of the mass.
Why can't they pick the tunes up by singing along like everyone does here?
I find it hard to believe that American congregations are any less musical than British ones. The evidence here would suggest it might be the other way round. So if our musical illiterates can learn tunes by ear I'd imagine yours can as well!
Look at how children and teenagers pick up the tunes of pop music - and they are usually more complex than the hymns and choruses we sing in church.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
Alternatively, you could try what we do from time to time: the choir has an "open Saturday" when we get together to look at new repertoire.
The event is in two parts - usually divided by coffee and cake: the first, we look at new hymns and we issue an open invitation to anyone who wishes to come and join us; the second is for choir members only.
Not only does this stop the choir becoming an exclusive club but it has also in the recent past unearthed several valuable singers.
Try it - good fun, another social event for people to mingle, is all-age (well, say 6 years old upwards) and can have huge benefits.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
Tourjour Dan
I suggest that you try and persuade the director of worship on this page over to lead a workshop (probably with other local churches). The morning an open session for all, the afternoon a session on teaching and leading congregations new music.
Not only is he Roman Catholic but he also knows how to teach people new songs the Iona way which does not involve needing to read music.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
|
Posted
ToujoursDan, one of the ways we teach new hymns to the congregation is to have the choir sing it as a part of the service for a couple of weeks. If I have a good arrangement of the tune, I'll also play it as a prelude to the service. After hearing it a few times, the congregation sings it, sometimes two or three weeks in a row.
We are lucky at my church. Most of the older ones read pretty well. They sing a robust four part harmony during the hymns. I'm just amazed that none of them admit to playing the piano, or any other instrument.
I would just like my tenors in the choir to read the words!!! They have the notes, but the text they're singing has nothing to do with the song. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
JJ
Ah, fond memories of a bass in a choir of my youth who, when reminded gently that a new work (which he didn't like because "modern" music) had words, faced the choir director with the choice "Which do you want, words or music - you can't have both?" ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
|
Posted
L'organist, it's all I can do to not remind the tenors that the altos and sopranos seem to be able to read both words and music! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
I remember someone in my choir who used to sing 'la, la, la, la' when they came across words they didn't know. Fair enough in rehearsal, but he used to do it in the service as well - most disconcerting!
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
|
Posted
I can't read music. I learnt music at school and also had two years of piano lessons. I know what letters the notes are given, where I would locate them on a piano, and whether they are to be held for one beat or two beats or half a beat, etc., but I can't look at a line of music and hum the tune. I can't translate it into what it should sound like. And surely that is what reading music is - just like reading a book is finding meaning from it, rather than identifying what the letters and punctuation marks are.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
It's interesting that a few of you associate being able to read music with being able to sing it.
Because I would have thought being able to play it on an instrument demonstrated just as well that you could read music. You still have to understand what the notes mean in order to press the right key or put your finger in the right place.
Not all music is even really designed to be singable.
[ 19. October 2013, 10:47: Message edited by: orfeo ]
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's interesting that a few of you associate being able to read music with being able to sing it.
Because I would have thought being able to play it on an instrument demonstrated just as well that you could read music.
Surely if it's something simple, with just one note at a time, sight reading would involve hearing the tune in your head and being able to hum it? At least, most people I know who play an instrument can do this.
But then I can't play music fluently either from reading. I have to work out each note as I go along, and it's very slow and faltering with frequent mistakes and stops. I failed grade 1 piano at age 12, after two years of lessons. I had memorised the pieces I had to play in the exam, because I couldn't play by reading. When I lost my nerve and forgot what came next, and therefore had to look to the sheet music to see what to play, I was totally lost. I don't know if this is common, or just me - it has occurred to me that maybe I have some kind of equivalent to dyslexia with reading music.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
So can you read music? Are my expectations ridiculous?
Yes. I can read music. I learnt to play the piano when I was young; my parents thought it was part of a sensible education and although it must have been difficult for them to afford this during the War,all four of us learnt. When I had children, I was sure it would be a good thing to learn, because then they could choose whether or not to play in their future lives and, more importantly, I think it increases one's appreciation of music knowing how it is written.;, but of course, that's impossible to prove!
When I became a Primary School teacher later on, I found it a most useful skill.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
However, I am useless at improvising or learning things by ear. This is a sadness and I think it comes from having learned to read so early. I would love to be able to pick things up by ear.
I mentioned on a discussion on the r3ok forum a while ago that I was incapable of playing by ear, but a reply from a professional pianist and teacher was that that was because of the way - old-fashioned! - I had been taught.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
|
Posted
As Joad probably said "It all depends on what you mean by 'read'". IMHO learning to put your fingers (and feet perhaps) in the right place for the right length of time is a valuable - in several senses - skill which I don't have, but is it reading? Being able sing at sight is often called reading music (I can only do that for simple music), but is it really? Being able to follow a line or several lines of music as they are performed is also a skill but if applied to printed words wouldn't be called reading.
Reading music IMHO means being able hear in one's head a piece of written music, perhaps when sitting in the corner of a railway carriage or sitting up in bed. With no instrument(s) in sight and making no sounds oneself. IME different people can do this sort of reading for different sorts of music. Having sung in and directed church choirs for 50 years I can read printed church choir music, provided it's not too polyphonic, too chromatic or arhythmic. Orchestral conductors can read orchestra scores with transposing instruments and many lines. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
So, it all depends on what you mean by read.
Just my .02€.
[Somebody said Byrd's "Ave verum" should never be performed, but read in private, because any performance is bound to dissappoint]
--------------------
.. to utmost west.
Posts: 858 | From: Not England | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
We're called organists.
[There's nothing like arriving for a concert to be greeted with "we forgot to order the organ part but have a copy for viola da gamba - can you do something with that". Better still, deputising to be told "we always sing this down a third, is that OK" ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) ]
![[Smile]](smile.gif) I smile, but seriously, I have the greatest admiration for organists. Did you always want to play the organ? Did it involve a very extended training? Do yu have to have an ability to play instinctively,, or is it all drawing on learned skills?
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
As Joad probably said "It all depends on what you mean by 'read'". IMHO learning to put your fingers (and feet perhaps) in the right place for the right length of time is a valuable - in several senses - skill which I don't have, but is it reading? Being able sing at sight is often called reading music (I can only do that for simple music), but is it really? Being able to follow a line or several lines of music as they are performed is also a skill but if applied to printed words wouldn't be called reading.
Would you not see it in terms of levels of ability, as with reading books? Children generally learn to read books first by reading out loud and then by reading in their head. And then, from there, the complexity of books they can read will increase over time. To me, with reading books, if you are getting meaning out of them, you are reading, even if it's just a Janet and John book and you are reading out loud - but of course, someone who is reading Dostoevsky in their head will be reading at a more advanced level. So I'd say being able to hum a basic tune from seeing the notes is a simple form of reading music. Hearing a whole orchestra in one's head would be a far more advanced form.
But I agree that putting one's fingers on the right place on the piano doesn't seem like reading - it doesn't correspond to reading books in the same way. It's not finding meaning in one's head, but simply using a code to translate from one external symbol to another. However, singing, or hearing the music in one's head, means that one has an internalised understanding of what the notes mean.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Piglet
Islander
# 11803
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
... sight reading would involve hearing the tune in your head and being able to hum it? At least, most people I know who play an instrument can do this ...
That's an interesting point, Fineline. I know someone who has a degree in music (singing performance) but who isn't an instrumentalist. She, another friend (also with a degree in music but a good pianist and organist) and I got together a few years ago to play recorder music for fun (we'd all played the recorder when young, but not for at least 20 years), and I couldn't understand why I was making a better job of sight-reading the music than the singer was (I have grade 5 Ass. Board flute, but nothing beyond school level, and had never considered myself a good sight-reader).
The pianist/organist said it was because I'd been an instrumentalist and my sight-reading skills would have been honed almost without my realising it. I think she was right: these days I can sight-read most of what's thrown at me in the choir - and we have a large repertoire.
edited for tpynig
[ 20. October 2013, 00:35: Message edited by: piglet ]
--------------------
I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
SusanDoris
I don't know about always wanting to play the organ, but certainly from the age of about 4, yes.
Being a child of the parsonage was a great help because it meant I had access to an instrument, and long before I could play either pedals or manuals I made a nuisance of myself with a kind and long-suffering young organist who let me turn pages - which taught me to read three staves, so useful for us both.
As for the other comments up-thread about "reading" music: I agree, there are two kinds of reading - reading as in being able to reproduce on an instrument or vocally and reading as in being able to hear what's on the page without playing or singing it aloud.
I'm not sure how other people develop this skill - I think I learned how to do it by following scores of fairly simple things (say a Brandenburg concerto) while listening to a recording and graduated to (a) larger scores, and (b) being able to hear what was on the page without a recording in the background. And score-reading early does enable you to sit down and play things for choruses and choirs from a proper score, as opposed to something set out like a hymn.
I do think early score-reading is the way into being able to hear an orchestra as its component instruments, as opposed to a body, when you come to conduct - but I must confess I haven't really thought about it much until now.
Anyway, thanks for your kind words about organists, but remember the old joke:
QWhat's the difference between an organist and a terrorist?
AYou can negotiate with a terrorist.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
thanks for your kind words about organists, but remember the old joke:
QWhat's the difference between an organist and a terrorist?
AYou can negotiate with a terrorist.
Thank you for your reply; and no, I hadn't heard the joke before!
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
Producing on an instrument is usually easier, as you learn where each note is placed on your particular instrument eg. pressing a certain key or putting your finger on a certain string in a certain place. But with the voice, you have to learn how to pitch a certain note within your own throat. Not many people can do this (it requires perfect pitch), although many can produce a rough approximation. The closest I can get is to be given the starting note and then working out the intervals (which I can do, but I'm slow). What I can do, however, to time, is sing my part along to organ accompaniment which keeps me roughly in the right place while I'm learning the piece. Once I already know it, unaccompanied is fine.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Producing on an instrument is usually easier, as you learn where each note is placed on your particular instrument eg. <snip> or putting your finger on a certain string in a certain place.
You don't play guitar, do you?
On a 24 fret electric guitar I can produce the E above middle C* in 6 different positions, 2 more positions for natural harmonics and another 4 for artificial harmonics. It's no wonder that guitarists prefer TAB. Me, I have difficulty with TAB and prefer music.
*This would be written an octave higher, as is nearly all guitar music.
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
David
Complete Bastard
# 3
|
Posted
My grandmother played piano for rehearsals of the WA Ballet company in the early 1950s. My father, who couldn't read music, used to turn the pages for her, and he said he did it by the shape of the notes on the page. I found that interesting but it makes sense - I can read music very well and if I think about it that's part of the way it works. I certainly don't read every note, it's more like picking out the highlights.
Posts: 3815 | From: Redneck Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
balaam: You don't play guitar, do you?
On a 24 fret electric guitar I can produce the E above middle C* in 6 different positions, 2 more positions for natural harmonics and another 4 for artificial harmonics.
It is true that for many instruments the playing of some sequences (or harmonies) of notes can be difficult. But you can't deny that playing a single note on a guitar is easier than singing it without aid. In the case of the guitar, you just have to choose which of the 6 positions to pick.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beethoven
Ship's deaf genius
# 114
|
Posted
I read music happily - indeed have (very) occasionally sat and read a score like a book. OK, so I'm not accurate enough to 'hear' all the fine detail, but I'll generally know how a straightforward tonal piece will sound by having looked through it.
Singing, my sight-reading is almost as good as reading English aloud; on flute I can sometimes sight-read something with my brain saying 'I'll never be able to play this at sight' and my fingers just getting on and doing it. On piano, however, I get in a tangle with anything bar the simplest of hymn tunes and end up missing out more notes than I play!
Both Opuses have basic music-reading skills. Op 1 (age 11) plays a bit of piano and sings in the church choir; Op 2 (9) learns cello through school and is in the choir. What fascinated me a few years ago was that I noticed that Op 1 would actually sight-sing a new piece of music (in the very early stages of learning piano) so that she'd know how it should sound when she played it!
--------------------
Who wants to be a rock anyway?
toujours gai!
Posts: 1309 | From: Here (and occasionally there) | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
|
Posted
Hi Beets!!
I find it interesting that a member of my church choir can't sing the vocal warm ups if she doesn't have the music in front of her. She definitely does not learn music by hearing it, but does very well reading!
Just for her, and to benefit any new people we get, I've written out all our vocal exercises. Thank goodness for free music writing programs, much better than my manuscribble.
--------------------
Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
|
Posted
Yes, I can read a line of music in treble or bass clef – mostly for choral singing, which I have done for years, and can make a fair go of sight-reading it; and for bashing the notes on a piano when the sight-reading fails. (I wouldn’t credit myself now with the description ‘pianist’ though I have been known after lots of practice to stumble through a four-part hymn tune.)
I first learned at primary school (back in the days when primary school was all about learning your tables, learning how to spell, etc) and had some piano lessons at secondary school.
In my somewhat limited experience, worship band leaders don’t read music, which led in the distant past to considerable frustration for me and conflict with the music group leader as I wanted to play the music as written, and the he vaguely invented his own version based on a half-remembered occasion when he’d heard it in the past. The idea that anyone should actually learn to read music in order to teach the correct version for the church congregation to sing was thought incomprehensible, and pretty much scorned. Heartfelt expression was all that counted. So the congregation learned non-standard variants on many songs.
The most memorable consequence of this was at an event when Graham Kendrick visited the church, as we acted as his backing group. He, of course played the songs as he’d written them, the band leader played the approximate adaptation that we sang in the church. I was embarrassed –I’m not sure the band leader was at all bothered. Not long after that I gave up any involvement in worship groups.
Angus
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
I apologise for not reading whole thread, so may repeat, that the new national curriculum has music notation it, so all UK children will be able to read music by the end of key stage 3
Said with a straight. Ish face.
Very late response, I know, but just a minor note (sorry): there are four National Curricula in the UK, so this may only apply to one of the countries. And the specification will be vital - how much will pupils be expected to know to reach the appropriate level? It's probably unlikely that they will be expected to read, say, four-part music in treble and bass clefs. I think if they can recognise treble and bass clefs, that will be halfway to the expected outcome.
I learned to read treble clef from learning the violin in primary and secondary school, and continue for singing. No perfect pitch so no sight-reading without a starting note, and then it's more luck than judgement if I get the right notes!
Yes, I bring shame upon the Land of Song, and hang my head accordingly ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
--------------------
"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Piglet
Islander
# 11803
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
... I don't know about always wanting to play the organ, but certainly from the age of about 4, yes ...
To quote Gordon Reynolds:
quote:
You don't begin by wanting to be an organist; you begin by wanting to be a cathedral organist.
--------------------
I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
