|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Tipping
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'll be honest, on my North American trip I found the experience of displayed prices having no relationship to the prices actually paid exhausting. Not being used to it.
It wasn't just the tips of course, it was also the tax regime. Perhaps the most disturbing moment of all was when I got to Oregon, where there was no tax to add, and I found myself being surprised that there was no tax to add, and then thinking to myself oh my God I've been here too long and I've started thinking like these crazy people to whom the advertised price doesn't mean anything. ...
Good grief. Is that really so? That's both barmy and dreadful. I don't think I could cope with that.
I'm fairly sure that unless you are a wholesaler, it's illegal here to post prices exclusive of VAT, and that if you do, the punter is entitled to insist on paying you the net price and expect you to bear the VAT. You do occasionally, if you're using a place that sells to the trade as well, find yourself in places which show both figures, but they have to make it clear they are doing that.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
I remember staying in Boston once, and being presented with a bill that had, I think, 3 separate percentage line items added on to the price quoted.
Me: What's this one?
Them: That's the Convention tax, sir.
Me: But I'm not attending a convention!
Them: No sir, it's to pay for our new convention center. You have to pay it I'm afraid.
WTF?
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'll be honest, on my North American trip I found the experience of displayed prices having no relationship to the prices actually paid exhausting. Not being used to it.
I think that's exactly it. We assume everything costs a bit more than it says. You're right though that that's bizarre on the face of it. When I was buying groceries for Community, and needed to count my dollars exactly, I kept a running total in my head of all the prices plus ten percent-ish. I have heard though that places have tried putting tax into their prices, but everyone yells at them for raising prices, because apparently many people don't notice that they pay taxes. They only look at the sticker price, and furiously prefer that it's lower even if that just makes the taxes invisible.
--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
They only look at the sticker price, and furiously prefer that it's lower even if that just makes the taxes invisible.
Do these people not notice that their item has magically increased in price between them taking it off the shelf and actually paying for it?
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
They only look at the sticker price, and furiously prefer that it's lower even if that just makes the taxes invisible.
Do these people not notice that their item has magically increased in price between them taking it off the shelf and actually paying for it?
The brain takes shortcuts when it process information. People know the item will cost more, but still has the perception of the lower price. In the same way 9.99 will sell many more units than 10.00 will.
Also, tax varies by state and city in America.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I gather not. Seriously, don't forget that most people are morons.
ISTM, this is an unfair characterisation. Our brains are wired to shortcut through the massive amount of information received.
Advertisers, manufacturers and retailers spend massive amounts to influence our purchasing decisions.
Whilst we love to feel smug in our intellect, I'd wager most people make far more decisions based upon manipulated perception than they are aware.
Does this relive responsibility, no. But it is not as simple as stupid. V. smart.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Also, tax varies by state and city in America.
And on this front, many people with a political preference for lower taxes prefer the existing scheme, because you get a big line at the bottom of the receipt that tells you how much the government is taking.
Personally, I think that argument is nonsense, for all kinds of reasons.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
|
Posted
I feel the need to confess that I am appalling at arithmetic so when I tip,I have to work out the amount based on 10% initially and take it from there. I honestly find it really stressful....
Here in Kenya, away from the tourist zone tipping is very rare so we delight in giving small tips and people are astonished and grateful and amusingly in places where we are now known people are also very keen to serve us!
--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I gather not. Seriously, don't forget that most people are morons.
ISTM, this is an unfair characterisation. Our brains are wired to shortcut through the massive amount of information received.
Advertisers, manufacturers and retailers spend massive amounts to influence our purchasing decisions.
Whilst we love to feel smug in our intellect, I'd wager most people make far more decisions based upon manipulated perception than they are aware.
Does this relive responsibility, no. But it is not as simple as stupid. V. smart.
I think you are mainly just being kinder than I am. I don't really disagree with what you said. Except I think people actually prefer to be ignorant. I think they WANT to live in lala land, and not have to notice how much tax they are paying. Similarly with taxes taken out of paychecks. Studies have been done, and people very much want to not-notice such things. That is the kind of thing that makes me lose respect for humanity. (And because I'm crabby!)
--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
[QUOTE]]I think that's exactly it. We assume everything costs a bit more than it says. You're right though that that's bizarre on the face of it. When I was buying groceries for Community, and needed to count my dollars exactly, I kept a running total in my head of all the prices plus ten percent-ish.
Yes my wife and daughter have just discovered this the hard way. Charged an extra $120 in Hawaii for a room stay - a charge mentioned nowhere on the booking or in the hotel. Cue international incident and consulates ..... apparently it's legal. You can understand why they are now reluctant to tip for the rest of their stay there.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Also, tax varies by state and city in America.
And on this front, many people with a political preference for lower taxes prefer the existing scheme, because you get a big line at the bottom of the receipt that tells you how much the government is taking.
Personally, I think that argument is nonsense, for all kinds of reasons.
One of those reasons no doubt being that those of us in countries where inclusive prices are quoted also always have the tax component broken out at the bottom of the bill. So quoting tax-inclusive prices has no impact on that.
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
I think that's exactly it. We assume everything costs a bit more than it says. You're right though that that's bizarre on the face of it. When I was buying groceries for Community, and needed to count my dollars exactly, I kept a running total in my head of all the prices plus ten percent-ish.
Yes my wife and daughter have just discovered this the hard way. Charged an extra $120 in Hawaii for a room stay - a charge mentioned nowhere on the booking or in the hotel. Cue international incident and consulates ..... apparently it's legal. You can understand why they are now reluctant to tip for the rest of their stay there.
Not really I can't. The tip goes to the server who often desperately needs it. The fees go to the owner who probably doesn't.
[ 14. January 2014, 16:05: Message edited by: Gwai ]
--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
I think that's exactly it. We assume everything costs a bit more than it says. You're right though that that's bizarre on the face of it. When I was buying groceries for Community, and needed to count my dollars exactly, I kept a running total in my head of all the prices plus ten percent-ish.
Yes my wife and daughter have just discovered this the hard way. Charged an extra $120 in Hawaii for a room stay - a charge mentioned nowhere on the booking or in the hotel. Cue international incident and consulates ..... apparently it's legal. You can understand why they are now reluctant to tip for the rest of their stay there.
Not really I can't. The tip goes to the server who often desperately needs it. The fees go to the owner who probably doesn't.
One rip off spoils the whole tourist experience - but the rip off is symbolic of a bigger attitude that they experienced .... reluctant to tip but for the very reason you mention they still do.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
Once, my parents booked a group trip to Brazil (after this two-week trip they were going to visit me). When they arrived at the Brazilian airport, they got into the coach that would take them on their trip. The travel organizers said: "We won't leave until everyone has paid € 50 for [some fee I don't remember]." Very off-putting!
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
And I do sympathize with their frustration--particularly since they are resisting taking it out on an innocent party. That sort of huge but invisible fee would definitely piss me off too.
Especially as in the UK its illegal and that's what you're used to .... getting accustomed to quaint local customs of extra charges takes a bit of time. Mrs Mark is I think breathing a sigh of relief that I remain in the UK - when overcharged in the UK I've called the Police and Trading Standards on the spot. It's called theft and/or fraud.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I understand you points about the tipping culture encouraging good service, but to my mind something has gone wrong when tipping an extra 15-20% of the bill becomes the expected amount regardless of service quality.
I agree with you. and despite being a server myself, if I get shitty service I don't tip. I'm probably worse than a lot of others that way.
I get all judgy. because I know what's really going on.
When I go out, it is so someone else will do the work. I expect a pleasant experience. I'm paying for a pleasant experience. If I have to deal with a difficult person or constantly ask for my water to be refilled or wait forever for food or whatever, I'm not tipping.
Now, if the food takes forever (or is poor quality), but the server comes over to me an apologizes, checks on me, makes it obvious that they care about my experience, I'll definitely still tip. But they need to make the effort. I'm not tipping based on pity, nor do I expect anyone else to. serving jobs are not a welfare program. people need to work for their money.
plus, depending on the market and the location, don't be fooled that your server is somehow barely making ends meet. in a perfect situation (maybe, a large, live-music bar in an urban area, perhaps) it would be unsurprising to me to find out that the bartenders, at least, are bringing in six figures, annually. (US$, obviously)
that's the exception, of course. but a good server, in the right market, doesn't need your charity. tip based on service. not pity.
just remember, that the tip is their income. so if the service is adequate, tip. if it's great, tip well. but if it sucks, you leave a HUGE message to the server by not tipping. quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Surely it would be better for all concerned if that expected amount was part of the "sticker price" of the meal and paid to the server through their normal wages, with any extra tip for better-than-expected service entirely at the customer's discretion (which is pretty much the situation here in the UK)?
It probably would be better, on one level.
it's a two-edged sword. once I've worked in the service industry, I've gotten very used to being directly rewarded for my good work. it motivates me.
if I'm getting an hourly wage, I'll get paid regardless of the quality of my work.
Now, pride will keep me from being a shit, obviously. and the need to keep the job! but If I'm making hourly and a given customer asks for some extra something that will require a lot of extra work from me? probably not going to happen. I'm already busy, already tired, and I'm walking home with the same dollar amount whether I specially prepare your sandwich or not. forget it.
and so that's the other thing to consider - those of us who are good at what we do - enough to consider ourselves "career" servers - if our income changes to being even $15/hour or something, we'll hit the road.
doing some quick mental math - on a poor shift (as a bartender, which makes a bit more than wait staff generally speaking) I'd easily make an additional $10/hour over my wages in tips. on, say, an average summer night shift? quite possibly $30/hour above tips.
my best tip night ever? I made $200 per hour above wages in tips. That's after splitting it with the other bartender and tipping out my security staff and barbacks.
And I was not in the big markets by a long shot.
I earned it - worked like a frenzied beast and managed to make every one of my multiple-hundred customers feel loved and special. it's a well-polished skill.
no way in hell a manager is going to match that in wages. and if they did, who's going to pay the per-drink amount the business would have to charge? if people are voluntarily putting that money out there, based on their need to show off or their generosity or just because they are having a blast and they want to share the love, they do it. if it is demanded in the price of a drink, ain't going to happen.
not when you can get that same beer at home for, what, 5% of the bar price?
perhaps the church collection is another way to think about it. when the basket comes around, if you're having a good day and you got your bonus this month, etc, you toss in a large bill and get to feel like a rockstar for a moment. if you were charged at the door the amount it costs to keep the lights on, broken down based on average attendence, you'd maybe give the minimum, but not throw in that extra large.
--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
|
Posted
Thanks, Comet, that's really helpful.
I'm still a bit confused about how a culture decides which people to tip though, as there appears to be considerable variance.
As for added extras on bills, I get sick just thinking about it as I like to know exactly what is expected of me before I embark on something.
And as Comet highlighted above, I actually really enjoy rewarding great service, that attention to detail is something I really value so I also wonder whether how/ if people tip is somehow linked to what we value?
--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
|
Posted
I think I would tip more if waiters didn't keep filling my glass and asking whether everything was OK.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
I'm still a bit confused about how a culture decides which people to tip though, as there appears to be considerable variance.
At the very least there's some correlation with a perceived NEED to tip. In Australia, tips are less common and at a lower rate because we fundamentally see tips as a bonus reward, not something that's actually needed by the person receiving the tip. The Australian response to the situation in the USA is at least in part 'why the hell aren't you paying these people a proper wage in the first place?'
Other Australians I met while in the USA articulated this, so I know it wasn't just me having this reaction. We come from a country with an extremely strong and long tradition of union activism to ensure minimum standards for employees and we struggle to comprehend how it can be legal to pay someone a wage on which it's clearly impossible to survive, on the expectation that they'll get enough money from another source (customers) to make it.
In Montreal it was explained to me that the tax system actually operated on an assumption about the tips my bartender would receive, rather than going through all the fuss and bother of establishing how much he in fact received - and so if I didn't tip him, he would get taxed on money he didn't actually get. I found this freakishly bizarre.
What I found even MORE bizarre though, was the day tour I went on. The bus driver/guide asking for a tip, I could handle. What I couldn't handle was that the material printed by his employer - brochures and a sign on the bus - encouraged us to tip the driver. To me it was a jaw-droppingly open admission that they weren't paying their employee enough.
One wonders if employers in North America argue that the low wages can't be rectified, because then their employees would get over-compensated on account of people continuing to tip at the same rate they did when the employees were getting appalingly low wages.
[ 15. January 2014, 07:17: Message edited by: orfeo ]
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
I think that's exactly it. We assume everything costs a bit more than it says. You're right though that that's bizarre on the face of it. When I was buying groceries for Community, and needed to count my dollars exactly, I kept a running total in my head of all the prices plus ten percent-ish.
Yes my wife and daughter have just discovered this the hard way. Charged an extra $120 in Hawaii for a room stay - a charge mentioned nowhere on the booking or in the hotel. Cue international incident and consulates ..... apparently it's legal. You can understand why they are now reluctant to tip for the rest of their stay there.
Not really I can't. The tip goes to the server who often desperately needs it. The fees go to the owner who probably doesn't.
Often that extra fee goes to the city or state. It is spent to improve tourist facilities or build convention center. Neither the Hotel or Server had any say in the matter. Another place for magic fees is at the airport. A lot of airports add an extra landing fee to pay for their grand new building projects.
[ 15. January 2014, 07:49: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In Montreal it was explained to me that the tax system actually operated on an assumption about the tips my bartender would receive, rather than going through all the fuss and bother of establishing how much he in fact received.
I have heard anecdotally that the same is/was true for London taxi drivers. Does anyone know if that is, in fact, the case?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
|
Posted
I completely agree with you orfeo and just wish that tips were on top of a living wage and I agree that the issue is a big picture debate. Here in Kenya many people are working within the tourism sector for a tiny proportion of the bill for a meal....
When I was teaching full-time I used to be given gifts at Christmas and sometimes at the end of the year from grateful parents. I was on a reasonable salary so the gifts were unnecessary but simply an expression of appreciation which is what I want to do when I tip.
--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I have heard anecdotally that the same is/was true for London taxi drivers. Does anyone know if that is, in fact, the case?
Possibly, but if so, there's a problem. Quite a large proportion of taxi journeys are by people travelling on behalf of their employers, who get reimbursed their travelling expenses. That won't include reimbursing a tip. So obviously the driver won't get one.
Incidentally, I think most taxi drivers are self employed.
[ 15. January 2014, 08:06: Message edited by: Enoch ]
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
Probably the worlds highest percentage tip (unless you know otherwise) is to London taxi drivers who "won't go south of the river". The words "double the fare " help, making this in effect a 100% tip.
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
Who on earth would want to go south of the river?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
I rarely tip in British restaurants. The only exceptions are when we go to a "fine dining" place as opposed to a place where there are numbers screwed onto the tables (Harversters being the exception of course).
Taxi drivers I'll usually let keep the change. In fact the only tip I leave regularly is the 50p when I have my hair cut. A number two is Ł4.50, and they usually tidy up my eyebrows and ear-hair, so I give them a fiver.
On the continent or in the US, then I do tip as it is expected, but as a Brit of course I'm tight-fisted about it and never scale the heights of 20%. If the bill is $92, I'll leave a hundred and that's that.
I think the rest of the world understands that you shouldn't really expect to receive an extravagent largesse from your betters. I mean one doesn't tip the downstairs staff, so why on Earth should one tip colonials?
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In Montreal it was explained to me that the tax system actually operated on an assumption about the tips my bartender would receive, rather than going through all the fuss and bother of establishing how much he in fact received.
I have heard anecdotally that the same is/was true for London taxi drivers. Does anyone know if that is, in fact, the case?
Revenue Canada (I think tht they've changed the name more recently) staff establish a norm for the sector based on credit card invoices in that city. If the average of tips on the invoices is 15%, they will assume that is what the waiter gets. A selection of restaurants in each place get audited, and the credit card slips for a waiter are totalled, and they compare the tip figure on that against their income tax form. One tax service presents it thus.
One friend who claimed but a very small amount of tips during her graduate student bartender gig (but who made much much much more) found herself faced with a large tax bill when her restaurant was audited (as a result of the restaurant owner's divorce case). She told the table that it took two months of tips to pay the $12,000 assessment.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Who on earth would want to go south of the river?
People who live in South London. Just a thought.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I rarely tip in British restaurants. The only exceptions are when we go to a "fine dining" place as opposed to a place where there are numbers screwed onto the tables (Harversters being the exception of course).
Taxi drivers I'll usually let keep the change. In fact the only tip I leave regularly is the 50p when I have my hair cut. A number two is Ł4.50, and they usually tidy up my eyebrows and ear-hair, so I give them a fiver.
On the continent or in the US, then I do tip as it is expected, but as a Brit of course I'm tight-fisted about it and never scale the heights of 20%. If the bill is $92, I'll leave a hundred and that's that.
I think the rest of the world understands that you shouldn't really expect to receive an extravagent largesse from your betters. I mean one doesn't tip the downstairs staff, so why on Earth should one tip colonials?
Because making sure a server doesn't starve = being a decent human being.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Huts
Apprentice
# 13017
|
Posted
I tip because society dictates that I do!
The kids in the youth group I used to run never tip. Many of them had low paying jobs and couldn't understand why they should have to tip.
One of them worked in the Co-op supermarket for just above minimum wage (the co-op to prove they were ethical paid a couple of pence above the minimum wags).
He was on the tills and a man came and paid for his shopping but left his wallet behind. The lad put the wallet into his till as procedure and informed the manager .
A couple of hours later the man came back retracing his steps. He was in a panic as he had just taken out 500 pounds in cash. As the lad was a good lad the man's worst fears were not realised and there was still Ł500 worth of cash in the wallet. As you can understand the man was happy and so offered the lad a Ł10 tip. The manager of the supermarket however told the customer it was against store policy to allow tips and so the lad never received the tip.
What the youth group couldn't understand was why when they were working a minimum wage job dealing with customers in a shop were not allowed to receive tips but when served by someone working a minimum wage job (same minimum wage)in a restaurant they were expected to tip.
I could never really give them a good answer.
Posts: 37 | From: Down South - UK | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
Its just habit. We tip taxi drivers, we don't tip bus drivers who make a lot less money. We tip in restaurants, we don't tip in pubs. But we can offer to buy the barmaid a drink, and she doesn;t actually have to use the money to pay for a real drink - in some pubs. Other pubs ban that.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
And for what its worth, the historical reason we don't tip in pubs is because tipping is a sign of social distance. The tip goes from the superior to the inferior. So giving a tip implies that you are the master and the other person your servant, which creates social distance. Restaurants are constructed in this way, the waiters take the role of servants for the day, the customers the role of masters. (One erason why British people have often been reluctant to work in restaurants because they see it, perhaps unconsciously, as demeaning - restaurants didn;t come to Britain till the late 19th century and when they did they were -as they are now - almost entirely ethnically non-British - at first mostly German and Swiss, then French, then Italian, with Spanish coming in after the war follwed by Indian, Chinese, Turkish, Thai...)
But pubs work on a premise of social equality. Which might be just as false as the social inequality of restaurants, but its how they work. The pub landlord or manager is cast as the host who is inviting guests into their own home. Staff are cast as friends rather than servants. (At least in traditional local pubs they are, the lines are drawn differently in big chain pubs where the staff wear uniforms - one reason a lot of pub customers don't like staff to wear uniforms - even if they don't realise that's the reason). Tipping creates social distance and breaks the spell. So it is not usually done. (As usual Ket Fox gets it right)
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
|
Posted
Thanks, ken, that's really interesting too.
So where would tipping taxi drivers, hairdressers or refuse collectors etc sit under that analysis, I wonder?
Also does that imply that giving tips means one comes across as thinking more highly of oneself than one ought?!
Honestly, I stand by what I said at the beginning, this is a social minefield.....
--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I have heard anecdotally that the same is/was true for London taxi drivers. Does anyone know if that is, in fact, the case?
Possibly, but if so, there's a problem. Quite a large proportion of taxi journeys are by people travelling on behalf of their employers, who get reimbursed their travelling expenses. That won't include reimbursing a tip.
Won't it? I've travelled on business, and it's reasonably common to say "Give me a receipt for Ł8" when presented with a Ł7 fare. Driver gets a tip, work gets the receipt, you get reimbursed Ł8.
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
I discovered, some time ago, that at our favourite Balti restaurant, any tip you ive at the table goes to the boss - the dad of some and the uncle of some other of the waiters.
Waiters escort you upstairs to the door as you leave - that is the time to tip them, where the boss cannot see.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And for what its worth, the historical reason we don't tip in pubs is because tipping is a sign of social distance. The tip goes from the superior to the inferior.
That's how I've always understood it. So it is puzzling that tipping seems to be much more the custom in the USA which I thought spurned social hierarchies and treated all people equally.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And for what its worth, the historical reason we don't tip in pubs is because tipping is a sign of social distance. The tip goes from the superior to the inferior.
That's how I've always understood it. So it is puzzling that tipping seems to be much more the custom in the USA which I thought spurned social hierarchies and treated all people equally.
I've said it often here, but when I worked for an American company, the Americans were on average more hierarchical and deferential at work than the Brits, Irish, and Australians. Maybe things are different in real life, but in the office they seemed to be more formal and take rank and position more seriously than we did.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And for what its worth, the historical reason we don't tip in pubs is because tipping is a sign of social distance. The tip goes from the superior to the inferior.
That's how I've always understood it. So it is puzzling that tipping seems to be much more the custom in the USA which I thought spurned social hierarchies and treated all people equally.
Sadly I think in many parts of the US, hierarchy is exactly why Americans get off on tipping. People love to decide whether their server deserves a tip. Makes them feel powerful and all.
There are exceptions though. At many of the places I can think of where I have received particularly exceptional service--the kind you remember years later--the servers weren't actually particularly deferential. Exceedingly polite of course, but they knew their worth. Actually the man who stands on a pedestal in my head as the ideal waiter (partially for his serious ninja skills and partially for his abilities to anticipate us) always seemed particularly confident. I suspect the guy knew he was damn good, and enjoyed his job. Though of course he didn't radiate arrogance--that would not have been a trait of an ideal server!
--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
So where would tipping taxi drivers, hairdressers or refuse collectors etc sit under that analysis, I wonder?
Do people tip hairdressers? I never thought about that. When I went to barbers (a different breed to hairdressers I think) I never tipped. Or noticed anyone tipping. Maybe I'll ask one if he gets tips.
As for taxi drivers - well, whoever said it was logical?
Here in London black cab drivers are often quite well paid (the details depend on luck, hours worked, and above all whether or not you own your own cab). Nice houses, golf club memberships, multiple foreign holidays a year. I wouldn't presume to guess how much they earn but I know some who seem to live a lifestyle that I'd associate with people getting 50-80,000 a year. On the other hand I know a cabbie who is bankrupt. There seems to be a huge variance.
But minicab drivers seem a lot worse off. Some websites say 100-250 pounds a night which seems plausible. The larger amounts would represent a lot of work. And you have to find fuel, insurance, and the car rental out of that - so its nowhere near as good as it seems. I think the Addison-Lee clones might do better than most.
But everyone tips cabbies. And black cabs tend to get bigger tips as they charge more. So this is an example of the better-paid getting tipped more. Weird.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
|
Posted
I tip my barber and cab drivers.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And for what its worth, the historical reason we don't tip in pubs is because tipping is a sign of social distance. The tip goes from the superior to the inferior.
That's how I've always understood it. So it is puzzling that tipping seems to be much more the custom in the USA which I thought spurned social hierarchies and treated all people equally.
Sadly I think in many parts of the US, hierarchy is exactly why Americans get off on tipping. People love to decide whether their server deserves a tip. Makes them feel powerful and all.
See for me, it is nothing more than a personal thank you for someone who did a personal service for me. Nothing about power, nothing about deciding whether someone deserves to be paid. You picked me up at my house, you dropped me off where I wanted to go, we had a nice conversation on the way, here is an extra thank-you. You do a nice job of cutting my hair, you always accommodate me when I have to reschedule, you give me a discount for scheduling an appointment once a month, so thank you- that discount is going directly into your pocket. I think you will find that the best tippers are people who have worked in the service industry and who appreciate that it can be hard working with the public. Trust me, if you treat people decently at their jobs (and in this country that means you throw them a decent tip,) it comes back to you in the professional relationship you develop with that person.
--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Single women, especially if on the lower income side of things, are amazing tippers.
Then why do I so often get sub-standard service when I go to a new place by myself?
quote:
pooling tips kills that happy loop. it also takes away my motivation to bend over backward to give you an amazing experience, and suddenly serving becomes the dead-end, pointless job it looks like to the outside world. why would I give 100% for shit money? because the work is HARD and not terribly rewording.
Would I bust ass and do great work with no tips but a decent wage? probably. but knowing that seeking out that one perfect extra prawn or running to the store to get the blood orange for your customer's special twist will translate in being able to put gas in your car is a very motivating factor.
quote:
When I go out, it is so someone else will do the work. I expect a pleasant experience. I'm paying for a pleasant experience. If I have to deal with a difficult person or constantly ask for my water to be refilled or wait forever for food or whatever, I'm not tipping.
I don't think of the server as part of the experience. I don't ask servers to do lots of special things for me. I just want to order, be served, be checked on once to make sure everything is okay, and beyond that I want to be left alone with my book or my friend. The server doesn't have to be cheerful, just efficient. And I would very much prefer it if they would refrain from checking on the table again and again -- more than once I've had a meal ruined because the server repeatedly interrupted the conversation.
And I would prefer that servers just got paid a decent wage rather than have to calculate what the service was worth every single time I go out.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
See for me, it is nothing more than a personal thank you for someone who did a personal service for me. Nothing about power, nothing about deciding whether someone deserves to be paid. You picked me up at my house, you dropped me off where I wanted to go, we had a nice conversation on the way, here is an extra thank-you. You do a nice job of cutting my hair, ...
Now that's what I really don't get. That's what the bill is for. I order a meal. The meal has a price on it. That's what I'm paying for. Likewise, the taximeter produces a price for the journey etc. etc. Having the food brought to the table, being delivered to my destination, is all part of what I'm paying for in the bill, not an extra for it not being a cafeteria or for being dumped at the end of the road.
I give tips where one's supposed to, but as I said earlier, I still begrudge it. I agree with the Australians on this one.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I don't think of the server as part of the experience. I don't ask servers to do lots of special things for me. I just want to order, be served, be checked on once to make sure everything is okay, and beyond that I want to be left alone with my book or my friend. The server doesn't have to be cheerful, just efficient.
Hear, Hear! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
See for me, it is nothing more than a personal thank you for someone who did a personal service for me. Nothing about power, nothing about deciding whether someone deserves to be paid. You picked me up at my house, you dropped me off where I wanted to go, we had a nice conversation on the way, here is an extra thank-you. You do a nice job of cutting my hair, ...
Now that's what I really don't get. That's what the bill is for. I order a meal. The meal has a price on it. That's what I'm paying for. Likewise, the taximeter produces a price for the journey etc. etc. Having the food brought to the table, being delivered to my destination, is all part of what I'm paying for in the bill, not an extra for it not being a cafeteria or for being dumped at the end of the road.
I give tips where one's supposed to, but as I said earlier, I still begrudge it. I agree with the Australians on this one.
Yes!
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I don't think of the server as part of the experience. I don't ask servers to do lots of special things for me. I just want to order, be served, be checked on once to make sure everything is okay, and beyond that I want to be left alone with my book or my friend.
Maybe that is why you are getting sub-standard service. There is a line, and a good server knows where it is, but if you allow a bit of a relationship to develop with your server, the server will frequently enhance your experience. Sure, sometimes it still doesn't get you great service, but more often than not it's worth the effort. Ever have a customer joke with you or try to make you smile while you are at work? It can make your day. There is nothing better than being a favorite customer at a bar or restaurant, and like it or not, being open with the servers and tipping well is how you become a favorite customer.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Now that's what I really don't get. That's what the bill is for. I order a meal. The meal has a price on it. That's what I'm paying for. Likewise, the taximeter produces a price for the journey etc. etc. Having the food brought to the table, being delivered to my destination, is all part of what I'm paying for in the bill, not an extra for it not being a cafeteria or for being dumped at the end of the road.
If you only think of the waiter as bringing you your food and the driver as getting you from point a to point b, sure. But they can be so much more. I've had cab drivers, bar tenders, and waiters who have made my night by being more than a cog in the process of getting me around, getting me a drink, and getting me fed. It starts with being friendly, and it ends with a good tip to let them know that they did make my night.
--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
Og - I agree with you that developing a good rapport with your server is a great start and to be maintained. But I otherwise agree 100% with RuthW.
I've had excellent service in countries where no tipping is the norm - people seem to want to help. You could equally argue that tipping commoditizes an interpersonal relationship, making it analogous to a bribe.
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I have got the impression over the years, from sof + tv, that patronage is common and expected in the states.
When it happens here it tends to be covert and denied - it is not supposed to happen.
I suspect if you were proven to have done
this in the UK it would be illegal.
Tipping to get service feels not so different from a bribe.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
