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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Exorcism
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Croesos
Why should we take your word over hers? Or hers over yours, for that matter?
Who are 'we' in this context?
Atheists? All and sundry?
If you have already decided that there is no God and no spiritual reality, then what Ms Avery says or what I say makes no difference to your opinion anyway.
I have given you the factor which decides which is the true practice and which is not. That factor is God Himself. But it seems rather daft for those who do not even believe in this arbiter, to demand to be convinced. As I said in an earlier post: you cannot build on a false foundation. You demand naturalistic evidence for a spiritual phenomenon. That, of course, is an irrational demand.
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So Christians get spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit, except when they don't, which has something to do with their "moral condition".
Correct.
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I'm guessing "moral condition" is something else which you can decide via "discernment" as well?
Yep, the kind of discernment even atheists use to make moral judgments. I tend to think that most people would regard Ms Avery's actions as morally suspect, given the result.
Those who live in rebellion against a moral God can't expect much cooperation from Him. I would have thought that was pretty obvious.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Croesos
Why should we take your word over hers? Or hers over yours, for that matter?
Who are 'we' in this context?
Atheists? All and sundry?
All and sundry. Or at least the sundry that read this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I have given you the factor which decides which is the true practice and which is not. That factor is God Himself.
<snip>
I tend to think that most people would regard Ms Avery's actions as morally suspect, given the result.
Most people would, but not you apparently. You maintain that people are unable to tell what's a "true practice" of exorcism and what isn't. Only God can decide such things, so I guess you're rather upset about the Montgomery County Police Department trespassing in God's domain. In any case harping on naturalistic things like "results" (double homicide) is the wrong way to look at these situations, according to your analysis.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
"Naturalism has no explanation for evil." (EE).
Hmm, could that be because naturalism does not describe evil? For example, in most of the psychological disciplines, I doubt if 'evil' figures as a diagnostic category.
In some way, that tells us something important about these disciplines - that they have secularized processes such as confession, and have stripped out moral condemnation (and approbation). The aim of a counsellor or therapist is not to improve someone morally.
I am not sure whether you agree with me that naturalism is limited in its description of reality, or whether you believe that it is not, and therefore evil is an illusion.
Perhaps you may like to clarify that point.
If evil is an illusion, then I wonder why 80%+ of our secular news directly involves moral issues. It seems rather strange that the world should exercise itself so much over something entirely false!
I don't see morality as an illusion. But clearly naturalistic philosophy has generally stated that moral judgments or normative statements cannot be described in naturalistic terms.
The most famous expression of this is Hume's ought/is problem, or in crude terms, how can you derive an ought from an is? Hume concluded that this was impossible.
This was echoed in G. E. Moore's notion of the naturalistic fallacy, which again in crude terms, argued that moral properties cannot be equated with natural properties.
Of course, these arguments have been disputed also, see for example, Sam Harris's book 'The Moral Landscape', which has however been criticized rather fiercely.
But these arguments don't render morality an illusion; but they do seem to render it subjective, unless that is, one sets out a kind of objectively based morality, as theism often attempts to do.
But the psychological disciplines are of interest in this regard, as they have generally eschewed moral issues, at least in the traditional sense. Well, there is some kind of moral dimension to this work, but it's not about a moral crusade.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Here's my analysis. Mrs Avery is quite clearly a hateful nut-job from some weird tin-pot African deliverance cult. You average Diocesan exorcist isn't, and this will be very clearly shown by comparing and contrasting their theology and praxis.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Here's my analysis. Mrs Avery is quite clearly a hateful nut-job from some weird tin-pot African deliverance cult. You average Diocesan exorcist isn't, and this will be very clearly shown by comparing and contrasting their theology and praxis.
But there are all kinds of people around doing exorcisms, aren't there? They're not all from African deliverance cults, as far as I can see.
Doesn't the idea of demonic possession potentially run the risk of demonizing mental illness, and making things worse?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Glad to see Barnabas62 throwing his sensible hat in here. I haven't had time to read the rest of the thread yet, so please excuse me if what comes now has already been said.
For anyone who (like me, once upon a time) regarded exorcisms as the preserve of the almost criminally insane, I would recommend F.Scott Peck's "The People Of the Lie." I resisted going anywhere near this because of the crazy spoiler blurb which gave a totally erroneous picture of this very good man. He makes it very clear how difficult the process of exorcism can be for everyone concerned, and his account should deter anyone who thinks a DIY exorcism is as easy as buying MDF from B&Q.
I didn't agree with everything he said, but he successfully challenged many of my misinformed preconceptions. As for exorcism on-line, all I can say is I bet it's very profitable - and I hope my remarks above convince you that I'm not a cynic.
[Edited to correct "sinsible" to "sensible" ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) ]
[ 07. February 2014, 16:46: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Here's my analysis. Mrs Avery is quite clearly a hateful nut-job from some weird tin-pot African deliverance cult. You average Diocesan exorcist isn't, and this will be very clearly shown by comparing and contrasting their theology and praxis.
But there are all kinds of people around doing exorcisms, aren't there? They're not all from African deliverance cults, as far as I can see.
Doesn't the idea of demonic possession potentially run the risk of demonizing mental illness, and making things worse?
There are all kinds of people selling burgers too. It doesn't take genius to work out that GBK makes a better burger than Grotty Jonnie's Burger Van. It's called discernment.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Croesos
Most people would, but not you apparently. You maintain that people are unable to tell what's a "true practice" of exorcism and what isn't. Only God can decide such things, so I guess you're rather upset about the Montgomery County Police Department trespassing in God's domain. In any case harping on naturalistic things like "results" (double homicide) is the wrong way to look at these situations, according to your analysis.
You, yet again, have misunderstood what I have been saying, as I certainly do not accept the validity of Ms Avery's approach. You have conjured an accusation against me out of thin air without any evidence whatsoever. We can see that she was wrong by the effect of her actions, and there is nothing in the Bible to justify a violent method of deliverance.
As for your comment about the Police Department, well, words fail me. Where you got that idea from beggars belief, as it suggests that I don't care about the prosecution of criminals.
You seem to take the view that if someone believes something to be true and then acts on it in such a way as to cause harm, then that suggests that the thing believed is not true. This is, of course, fallacious thinking, and taken to its logical conclusion would actually mean that the philosophy of naturalism is not true, given that Stalin, for example, believed it and applied it to the great cost of many people.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Here's my analysis. Mrs Avery is quite clearly a hateful nut-job from some weird tin-pot African deliverance cult. You average Diocesan exorcist isn't, and this will be very clearly shown by comparing and contrasting their theology and praxis.
But there are all kinds of people around doing exorcisms, aren't there? They're not all from African deliverance cults, as far as I can see.
Doesn't the idea of demonic possession potentially run the risk of demonizing mental illness, and making things worse?
There are all kinds of people selling burgers too. It doesn't take genius to work out that GBK makes a better burger than Grotty Jonnie's Burger Van. It's called discernment.
But if you someone is in a bad way, are you expecting them to be able to discern an authentic exorcist from a duff one? How would they be able to do that?
I'm just curious as to how you can discern that someone is correctly identifying evils spirits in someone, and is casting them out. Are there a set of criteria that are used to make this discernment, or is it a gut feeling?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Sorry, that should be, 'But if someone is in a bad way ...'
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
I'm just curious as to how you can discern that someone is correctly identifying evils spirits in someone, and is casting them out. Are there a set of criteria that are used to make this discernment, or is it a gut feeling?
No, it is not a gut feeling, but spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit.
If someone doesn't believe in the reality and work of the Holy Spirit, then obviously this answer would make no sense to him. So the real question is: do we actually believe that God - and therefore the Holy Spirit - is real, or not? And if real, then do we believe that He works in our lives by, among other things, giving us spiritual discernment?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
I'm just curious as to how you can discern that someone is correctly identifying evils spirits in someone, and is casting them out. Are there a set of criteria that are used to make this discernment, or is it a gut feeling?
No, it is not a gut feeling, but spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit.
If someone doesn't believe in the reality and work of the Holy Spirit, then obviously this answer would make no sense to him. So the real question is: do we actually believe that God - and therefore the Holy Spirit - is real, or not? And if real, then do we believe that He works in our lives by, among other things, giving us spiritual discernment?
Well, you seem to be conflating belief in God with belief in evil spirits and demonic possession, as if one involves the other. I suppose that is an orthodox Christian position?
So if someone believes in God, they will also believe that God will equip them with the ability to discern evil spirits.
I suppose the worrying thing there for me, is the existence of mental illness. Does God give you the ability to distinguish that from demonic possession?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
I suppose the worrying thing there for me, is the existence of mental illness. Does God give you the ability to distinguish that from demonic possession?
Why not? He is the God of all truth, who leads us into the truth.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
Well, you seem to be conflating belief in God with belief in evil spirits and demonic possession, as if one involves the other.
I must say that that is a rather perplexing and incoherent response to my comment.
If God says that there are evil spirits and He will give discernment concerning them, then how is that "conflating belief in God with belief in evil spirits and demonic possession"?
It's a bit like saying that if we should assert that the best tool to use to find certain types of buried treasure is a metal detector, that is "conflating belief in metal detectors with belief in buried treasure".
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
I suppose the worrying thing there for me, is the existence of mental illness. Does God give you the ability to distinguish that from demonic possession?
Why not? He is the God of all truth, who leads us into the truth.
Well, it's just that I trained for about 5 years, and had to do supervision for the next 30, in order to be able to work with people who are suffering from some sort of mental disturbance or illness. I suppose I could have not bothered and trusted to God instead!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Cautiously sticking a toe in--I think in some ways it does come down to a gut feeling (what I suspect is actually from the Holy Spirit instead), but of course any "feeling" has to be checked six ways from Sunday, preferably with several professionals, before acting on it. Still, I do know that there appears to be a different "smell" about purely human evil than about something where other stuff is active. (the case I'm thinking of is one where I was describing a murderous situation--one where the murder (thankfully) never did occur, but we came way too close for comfort; the shrink I was describing it to asked me if I was saying X was possessed? and without even pausing, I said immediately, "Oh no, it smells purely human" though dreadfully evil, of course. That did in the end turn out to involve a psychotic break, and the person was cured.)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
Well, it's just that I trained for about 5 years, and had to do supervision for the next 30, in order to be able to work with people who are suffering from some sort of mental disturbance or illness. I suppose I could have not bothered and trusted to God instead!
So I assume that you think that God subverts the human mind and disciplined study, yes?
If so, that is certainly not a view I share.
And can I assume that demons are not allowed to exist, on the basis that their presence and activity undermines your career?
Nowhere have I suggested that the deliverance ministry is a simple solution to the problem of mental illness. If it were, there would be no need for discernment.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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