homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Taking time out (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Taking time out
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
To be fair, most people work a 5 day week and, even if they have admin or professional study to do at home, have two days per week to fit it in. The clergy work 6 days a week and often face demands to work for a large part of the 7th as well. They, more than most, are, in effect, always on duty, they and their family scrutinised as in a goldfish bowl. So their pressure is abnormal.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379

 - Posted      Profile for Belle Ringer   Email Belle Ringer   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Most jobs I've had are 6 days a week (7 in rush times), no overtime pay or comp time.

Most people I know who have a 5 day a week job work a second job - either a weekend job or a home business. Americans usually get two weeks (10 days) of vacation *if* the job offers any paid time off (increasingly jobs offer none). professionals are often expected to work part of their vacation. A friend had a full time job in an advertising agency in NYC, got one week vacation per year. Small business owners get no paid vacation. Many jobs are reducing or eliminating sick leave.

Mid-level managers commonly work 10+ hour days plus some weekends.

I don't see that clergy work harder than other workers. They sure do get a lot more time off! The local Methodist guy gets 4 weeks vacation plus 3 weeks "renewal leave" per year, plus retreats and conferences (these are unpaid time in the jobs I've had but paid time for him). Plus paid sabbatical every 6 or 7 years. And guaranteed job for life = none of the fears (or realities) of unemployment the rest of us periodically face.

Yes what they have we should all have - job security included. But when I hear that they are "sacrificing" I get a little jaded. The local Methodist guy gets about $80,000 a year (including housing, we all have to pay for housing), that's the upper 10% of USA incomes, not counting the wife's full time job. (The TEC clergy person gets about $85,000).

Some of you UK clergy ought to move to the USA!

(For proper comparison - the Methodist church is the biggest one of 5 or 6 in the area, ASA 150 people, the TEC is the only one in the county, ASA comparable or a bit less. Y'all may be talking about churches with an ASA of 12, which of course wouldn't pay nearly as much.)

Not sayin' everyone gets that kind of pay package, lots and lots of small churches pay less than a living wage and no paid vacation, no renewal leave, no sabbatical. But the major denominations take good care of their (full time) clergy, some of whom insist they are "sacrificing" by being clergy instead of taking a corporate job. (The part timers get treated poorly.)

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This major denomination (LCMS) does nothing of the sort. Unfortunately.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Most jobs I've had are 6 days a week (7 in rush times), no overtime pay or comp time.

Most people I know who have a 5 day a week job work a second job - either a weekend job or a home business. Americans usually get two weeks (10 days) of vacation *if* the job offers any paid time off (increasingly jobs offer none). professionals are often expected to work part of their vacation. A friend had a full time job in an advertising agency in NYC, got one week vacation per year. Small business owners get no paid vacation. Many jobs are reducing or eliminating sick leave.

Mid-level managers commonly work 10+ hour days plus some weekends.

I don't see that clergy work harder than other workers. They sure do get a lot more time off! The local Methodist guy gets 4 weeks vacation plus 3 weeks "renewal leave" per year, plus retreats and conferences (these are unpaid time in the jobs I've had but paid time for him). Plus paid sabbatical every 6 or 7 years. And guaranteed job for life = none of the fears (or realities) of unemployment the rest of us periodically face.

Yes what they have we should all have - job security included. But when I hear that they are "sacrificing" I get a little jaded. The local Methodist guy gets about $80,000 a year (including housing, we all have to pay for housing), that's the upper 10% of USA incomes, not counting the wife's full time job. (The TEC clergy person gets about $85,000).

Some of you UK clergy ought to move to the USA!

(For proper comparison - the Methodist church is the biggest one of 5 or 6 in the area, ASA 150 people, the TEC is the only one in the county, ASA comparable or a bit less. Y'all may be talking about churches with an ASA of 12, which of course wouldn't pay nearly as much.)

Not sayin' everyone gets that kind of pay package, lots and lots of small churches pay less than a living wage and no paid vacation, no renewal leave, no sabbatical. But the major denominations take good care of their (full time) clergy, some of whom insist they are "sacrificing" by being clergy instead of taking a corporate job. (The part timers get treated poorly.)

You are quoting anecdotal data as if it were universal. The average salary in PCUSA-- surely a large mainline American denomination-- is around $50K. No guaranteed job and no guaranteed sabbatical.

Your two examples may in fact be correct-- I know some clergy who are making that range for base + housing. But I know that there is often a lot of misunderstanding due to the habit of many churches to quote as "salary" the entire cost to the church-- the cost of pension, health care, etc.-- which is then compared to only the actual salary of other workers.

Which is not to say that there aren't significant benefits to ministerial work. There are. They have more to do with flexibility and influence than finances and hours. But there are real benefits. There are also real challenges. It's like most jobs in that way.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Most people I know who have a 5 day a week job work a second job - either a weekend job or a home business. Americans usually get two weeks (10 days) of vacation *if* the job offers any paid time off (increasingly jobs offer none). professionals are often expected to work part of their vacation. A friend had a full time job in an advertising agency in NYC, got one week vacation per year. Small business owners get no paid vacation. Many jobs are reducing or eliminating sick leave.

And, there's this urban myth about Abe Lincoln abolishing slavery.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, that's two and a half hours of my over 13 hour working day with two hours unpaid church work to follow!

God doesn't pay His debts with money. Or time off.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

 - Posted      Profile for Anselmina     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Most people I know who have a 5 day a week job work a second job - either a weekend job or a home business. Americans usually get two weeks (10 days) of vacation *if* the job offers any paid time off (increasingly jobs offer none). professionals are often expected to work part of their vacation. A friend had a full time job in an advertising agency in NYC, got one week vacation per year. Small business owners get no paid vacation. Many jobs are reducing or eliminating sick leave.

And, there's this urban myth about Abe Lincoln abolishing slavery.
Yep. Must be shit living in the USA, if Belle Ringer's 'evidence' is anything to go by.

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

 - Posted      Profile for Dave W.   Email Dave W.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Most people I know who have a 5 day a week job work a second job - either a weekend job or a home business. Americans usually get two weeks (10 days) of vacation *if* the job offers any paid time off (increasingly jobs offer none). professionals are often expected to work part of their vacation. A friend had a full time job in an advertising agency in NYC, got one week vacation per year. Small business owners get no paid vacation. Many jobs are reducing or eliminating sick leave.

And, there's this urban myth about Abe Lincoln abolishing slavery.
Yep. Must be shit living in the USA, if Belle Ringer's 'evidence' is anything to go by.
According to this report on "Paid leave in private industry over the past 20 years" from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics her impressions don't reflect averages across the US. 10 days of vacation (excluding paid holidays) is the average for new full-time hires; it's 17 for 10 years' service.

According to data from the US Federal Reserve, the "average annual hours worked by persons engaged" in the US and UK are fairly close - though it turns out people in the UK worked substantially longer hours (~ 20% more in 1960) in the 50's, but this dropped to parity by the mid-90's.

Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992

 - Posted      Profile for Adeodatus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think the stresses of working as parish clergy (at least in the CofE) aren't greater or less than the stresses of any other kind of work. They're just different.

When I was a parish priest I hated "living over the shop". It meant that as well as priest, I was church caretaker, security guard and general dogsbody. It meant that people could turn up on the doorstep at any time of day or night - and they did - expecting my attention or, often, a free handout. But I also hated the lack of management and governance in the CofE. Nobody really cared what I did, or even whether I did anything very much at all, apart from turn up at church or for mostly pointless meetings. It was before the days of ministerial review (which even now isn't done well - I'm still waiting for the feedback from my last one a year ago!) so I had no-one who would spend time with me assessing my performance and objectives.

On the other hand, to all intents and purposes I had a job for life, an insanely generous pension, absurd sickness benefits (I've heard of parish clergy off sick for over a year, with no real pressure or plan to return to work), and of course a 3-month paid break from the "day job" every 7-10 years, or as often as I cared to demand it.

Now I work for the NHS. Each morning I go to work; I work; and I go home, where unless I'm on call no-one from work will phone me unless, as I usually put it, "an asteroid hits the chapel". (If I'm on call, I have to be ready to be on site within an hour on demand.) Governance is tight: I have to know NHS policies and guidelines on all sort of matters, forwards, backwards, and sideways - and God help me if I break any of them, because no-one else will. But governance exists primarily to protect patients. I also have a supportive manager who regularly helps me assess my performance, and I'm part of a multidisciplinary team who recognise the value of my work. Life is good.

But I've had to arrange and pay for my own housing. I have to pay for my own pension (I think it's 9% of my salary this year). I certainly don't have a job for life - my profession is one of the more financially vulnerable in the NHS. If I'm off sick for more than 2 weeks the "management of absence" policy kicks in, and if I were off sick for a year I would probably lose my job. And I don't get sabbaticals.

On balance - though at times I resent still having the CofE breathing down my neck - I prefer life as it is now to life as it was when I worked in a parish. Others' mileage may vary.

--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076

 - Posted      Profile for Gwai   Email Gwai   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Most people I know who have a 5 day a week job work a second job - either a weekend job or a home business. Americans usually get two weeks (10 days) of vacation *if* the job offers any paid time off (increasingly jobs offer none). professionals are often expected to work part of their vacation. A friend had a full time job in an advertising agency in NYC, got one week vacation per year. Small business owners get no paid vacation. Many jobs are reducing or eliminating sick leave.

And, there's this urban myth about Abe Lincoln abolishing slavery.
Yep. Must be shit living in the USA, if Belle Ringer's 'evidence' is anything to go by.
The part about second jobs sounds like a bit of an exaggeration to me--in my business most of us dabble in work on the side, but that's as much to keep our rep up for freelance work etc.--but the rest is no joke. Taking all one's sick leave is a great way to never get promoted in many/most jobs, for instance.

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My line manager has often told me off for not taking all my annual leave allowance. Without adequate time to wind down and enjoy life outside the office people burn-out and productivity falls. At least, that's why he tells me to take more time off.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804

 - Posted      Profile for Ethne Alba     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The comments (up thread) re Living Over The Shop say it all.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
10 days of vacation (excluding paid holidays) is the average for new full-time hires; it's 17 for 10 years' service.

Which still isn't great. Here in Australia you have a right to at least 20 from the get-go.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Most people I know who have a 5 day a week job work a second job - either a weekend job or a home business. Americans usually get two weeks (10 days) of vacation *if* the job offers any paid time off (increasingly jobs offer none). professionals are often expected to work part of their vacation. A friend had a full time job in an advertising agency in NYC, got one week vacation per year. Small business owners get no paid vacation. Many jobs are reducing or eliminating sick leave.

And, there's this urban myth about Abe Lincoln abolishing slavery.
Indeed. I keep reading this sort of thing and think "In a rich, civilised country? Why do people put up with it?" because I know it'd drive me into an early grave. It's one of the reasons I have never, ever considered working in the USA. The conditions can be abominable, going by accounts like this.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

 - Posted      Profile for Dave W.   Email Dave W.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Most people I know who have a 5 day a week job work a second job - either a weekend job or a home business. Americans usually get two weeks (10 days) of vacation *if* the job offers any paid time off (increasingly jobs offer none). professionals are often expected to work part of their vacation. A friend had a full time job in an advertising agency in NYC, got one week vacation per year. Small business owners get no paid vacation. Many jobs are reducing or eliminating sick leave.

And, there's this urban myth about Abe Lincoln abolishing slavery.
Indeed. I keep reading this sort of thing and think "In a rich, civilised country? Why do people put up with it?" because I know it'd drive me into an early grave. It's one of the reasons I have never, ever considered working in the USA. The conditions can be abominable, going by accounts like this.
Well, if someone offered me a job with terrible conditions in another country, I wouldn't consider taking it either! But I probably wouldn't eliminate the possibility just because somebody on the internet told me some people there have jobs with terrible conditions. By that sort of standard, I imagine one could easily find reasons to avoid all manner of places generally considered "civilized".

(You should perhaps consider the possibility that her experience is an outlier, or that she's exaggerating for effect.)

Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Bit of a tangent, I know, but I actually thought about that question a bit while visiting last year.

The amount of leave was a little bit disconcerting, but it was actually the health care situation that freaked me out. The notion that jobs come with health care plans, and that you might have to decide on a job based on its health care plan and not just the actual job, or lose your health care at the same time as you lose your job, is something that I just could not deal with.

Although I'm not quite clear on how much Obama may have fixed this for you with his evil socialised medicine...

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959

 - Posted      Profile for tclune   Email tclune   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
According to this report on "Paid leave in private industry over the past 20 years" from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics her impressions don't reflect averages across the US. 10 days of vacation (excluding paid holidays) is the average for new full-time hires; it's 17 for 10 years' service.

I suspect the person who put that summary together (or the author of the original report) is innumerate. It is almost beyond belief that the "average" number of days vacation in the first year would be 10 in this country. Virtually every private company I know offers somewhere between 0 and 10 vacation days in the first year. I can believe that the median number of days is 10 or that the mode is 10, but the average would almost assuredly not be a whole number and would almost as surely be closer to 7 than 10.

--Tom Clune

--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.

Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

 - Posted      Profile for Dave W.   Email Dave W.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
According to this report on "Paid leave in private industry over the past 20 years" from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics her impressions don't reflect averages across the US. 10 days of vacation (excluding paid holidays) is the average for new full-time hires; it's 17 for 10 years' service.

I suspect the person who put that summary together (or the author of the original report) is innumerate. It is almost beyond belief that the "average" number of days vacation in the first year would be 10 in this country. Virtually every private company I know offers somewhere between 0 and 10 vacation days in the first year. I can believe that the median number of days is 10 or that the mode is 10, but the average would almost assuredly not be a whole number and would almost as surely be closer to 7 than 10.

--Tom Clune

And "Virtually every private company [you] know" makes a sample size of how many?

In fact, according to the 2012 National Compensation Survey of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Table 38, both the mean and the median number of days of vacation for full time first year civilian workers with paid leave is 10. (Fractional vacation amounts were rounded to the nearest full number of days.)

The distribution for full time workers is:
  • Less than 5 days: 4%
  • 5-9 days: 33%
  • 10-14 days: 40%
  • 15-19 days: 14%
  • 20-24 days: 7%
  • Greater than 24 days: 2%
Of course, they only got information from just under 8000 establishments, so what do they know? If you'd like to probe the depths of their innumeracy yourself, you might enjoy reading Chapter 8 of the BLS Handbook of Methods, National Compensation Measures.

(And if you think nearly all private companies offer between 0 and 10 days of vacation in the first year, I don't see how you can also think that it's likely that the median number of days could be 10.)

Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

The amount of leave was a little bit disconcerting, but it was actually the health care situation that freaked me out. The notion that jobs come with health care plans, and that you might have to decide on a job based on its health care plan and not just the actual job, or lose your health care at the same time as you lose your job, is something that I just could not deal with.

In Germany it's simple. You have your health care plan/insurance through your job. If you don't have a job it is part of your benefits.

I don't like our system as much as the one in Germany - the patient has real choice over there. But the USA seems to be the pits health care wise.

Back to the topic - I have lots of time off now (semi-retired) and can heartily recommend it! Having time off work is never as good as not having to work. No guilt trips when there's no employer [Smile]

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959

 - Posted      Profile for tclune   Email tclune   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
[QB
In fact, according to the 2012 National Compensation Survey of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Table 38, both the mean and the median number of days of vacation for full time first year civilian workers with paid leave is 10. (Fractional vacation amounts were rounded to the nearest full number of days.)

The distribution for full time workers is:
  • Less than 5 days: 4%
  • 5-9 days: 33%
  • 10-14 days: 40%
  • 15-19 days: 14%
  • 20-24 days: 7%
  • Greater than 24 days: 2%

Of course, they only got information from just under 8000 establishments, so what do they know? If you'd like to probe the depths of their innumeracy yourself, you might enjoy reading Chapter 8 of the BLS Handbook of Methods, National Compensation Measures.

(And if you think nearly all private companies offer between 0 and 10 days of vacation in the first year, I don't see how you can also think that it's likely that the median number of days could be 10.) [/QB]

Dave, I did as you suggest and perused the report you cite. Before explaining it to you, let me indicate how it would be possible (I didn't say "likely") for median and mode to be the same value while mean differs. Consider this sample of ten: 1 gets no time off; 2 get five days off; and seven get ten days off.

Now, the first table you should look at in the report you link is table 32. It shows that about a quarter of all the companies in the country offer no vacation benefits at all. That may make you suspect that you have missed something.

When turning to table 38, we find it clearly stated that they are limiting themselves to those companies that do offer vacations. Second, they do not provide any data whatsoever for "new hires" (the term you used originally). They show number of days off after one year and after five. FWIW

--Tom Clune

--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.

Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

 - Posted      Profile for Dave W.   Email Dave W.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Dave, I did as you suggest and perused the report you cite.

You're welcome.
quote:
Before explaining it to you, let me indicate how it would be possible (I didn't say "likely") for median and mode to be the same value while mean differs. Consider this sample of ten: 1 gets no time off; 2 get five days off; and seven get ten days off.

OK - fair enough.
quote:
Now, the first table you should look at in the report you link is table 32. It shows that about a quarter of all the companies in the country offer no vacation benefits at all. That may make you suspect that you have missed something.

Actually no, I didn't miss it - that's why I said it was "the mean and the median number of days of vacation for full time first year civilian workers with paid leave." (And the table doesn't give the fraction of companies that offer paid vacations - it's the fraction of workers who get them.)
quote:
When turning to table 38, we find it clearly stated that they are limiting themselves to those companies that do offer vacations.

Well, yes. But again, the claim I'm countering is "Americans usually get two weeks (10 days) of vacation *if* the job offers any paid time off (increasingly jobs offer none)." Since 10 days is both the mean and median for workers with just 1 year of service in jobs with paid leave, and that median rises to 15 days after 5 years and 20 days after 20 years, I think my argument is holding up pretty well.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814

 - Posted      Profile for Galloping Granny   Email Galloping Granny   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Belatedly, since I had to check with a busy person: Presbyterian clergy get the statutory 4 weeks holiday leave (family holiday withn husband & kids; time with ailing aged parent etc – like any of us). Study leave as I understand it accumulates year by year though there's an initial few years to start with. A minister has to present a report to Presbytery after study leave.

GG

--------------------
The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Dave, your figures show 10-14 days as the modal value (40%). I consider that pretty piss poor. I have 33 days through long service (we start with 25 I think) and there's absolutely no expectation that you'd ever work during any of it. I'd not be able to do all the stuff I want to in 14 days off, and I only work because it provides money to live on and do the things I do on the days off.

This is paid leave of course. I don't think I could really afford unpaid time off.

[ 31. March 2014, 09:10: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

 - Posted      Profile for Dave W.   Email Dave W.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Dave, your figures show 10-14 days as the modal value (40%).

That's for people with 1 year on the job, it's not for all workers.
quote:
I consider that pretty piss poor. I have 33 days through long service (we start with 25 I think) and there's absolutely no expectation that you'd ever work during any of it.
I'm not expected to do any work during my time off, either, and I think this is typical for American workers.
quote:
I'd not be able to do all the stuff I want to in 14 days off, and I only work because it provides money to live on and do the things I do on the days off.

This is paid leave of course. I don't think I could really afford unpaid time off.

I'm not arguing that paid leave is the same or better the in US, and I'm certainly not making any claims about whether it would (or should) satisfy your personal preferences. I'm just trying to provide evidence to support my contention that Belle Ringer's extreme description of working conditions in the US is not accurate.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Having finally managed to find a deputising player for a particular Sunday - one who can cope with Anglican Chant, etc, so dead easy to track down(!) - I inform the PP, only to be told I can't take the Sunday because he'll be away... [Mad]

I've had 1 Sunday off in 15 months...

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

 - Posted      Profile for BroJames   Email BroJames   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
To which, I suppose, you might justly say he can't have that Sunday off as you'll be away. (Though TBH, unless you are also leading the worship, I don't see why a visiting organist will be any problem for any other competent person taking the service.)

Do you have a contract? The standard organist contracts I've seen specify six weeks leave in the year with one month's notice given of holiday. They also provide only that you should "make reasonable endeavours to find a suitable organist to play in your absence".

Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If only it were so easy...
With children in a choir one of the main requirements is that the deputy have Safeguarding Clearance (the old CRB check) valid for your church: yes there are proposals to make these clearances portable but at the moment they aren't.

Yes, I do have a contract: it stipulates I can take "up to" 6 Sundays a year off - but have to cover: Advent Sunday, Christmas, Epiphany, Ash Wednesday, Palm Sunday to Easter Day inclusive; Ascension, Pentecost, Trinity, Patronal Festival (September), Harvest, Dedication, All Saints & All Souls and Remembrance.

The wording you quote is, I think, from the standard RSCM document - my contract is not that but was drawn up to reflect exactly what the church required and at a time when there were available TWO deputies within the parish. Moreover, the appointing PP was a more realistic chap to work with...

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

 - Posted      Profile for BroJames   Email BroJames   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'd have thought there were probably other ways of dealing with Safeguarding than by requiring any one-off visiting organist to have Safeguarding Clearance, but that's another story.

Perhaps it's time to review the contract if it was drawn up for circumstances which no longer pertain, and to push for one of the more standard form contracts. The difficulty of finding cover suggests that you might be in a strong position (they're not going to sack you and easily find someone else. Perhaps an informal chat with the PP when he happens to be in the presence of a churchwarden might be in order.

Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't want this to change into a thread about Safeguarding, but ...

a. Does said deputy have a CRB/DBS in their capacity as a music teacher? If so, ask to see it.

b. There are ways and means of dealing with "once-offs" - eg the Baptist Union has a Voluntary Declaration Form which can be used. At least its use protects your backs.

c. Just make sure said deputy is never alone with the young people, and doesn't take down personal details (although that might not be easy).

Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Not all would-be deputies (or organists, for that matter) are music teachers. Apart from the children in the church choir, I don't teach under 21s either...

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You are looking for someone to come into church one Sunday and play the hymns chosen by the preacher, possibly allow them in once before that to get some practice on the instrument. Why would it be expected that they'd have any involvement with the children in the choir (or elsewhere in church for that matter)? I understand that your job as organist could include accompanying the choir in practices, maybe more direct involvement in helping the choir get the best out of their talents, which would put you in closer contact with children. That doesn't have to be part of what your deputy does.

It's almost getting to the point where anyone coming into church on a Sunday morning needs to undergo Safeguarding or equivalent procedures just in case they sit within 100 yards of a child.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No.

The need is for someone to take a junior rehearsal, including one-to-one voice training with each, for an hour, segueing seamlessly into a rehearsal with the adults: first fifteen minutes on music for the Sunday, the next 50 prepping other things.

The music will have been chosen (by me, not the PP: I'm qualified in liturgical music, he isn't) so on the Sunday the player is required to be on the bench playing for 15-15 minutes before the service, to accompany hymns and psalms, conduct 2nd set of responses and anthem (will be deliberately chosen to be unaccompanied so easier) then play suitable voluntary at the end.

We are told by the diocese that ALL choir members must have CRB clearance, and the same goes for anyone responsible for any part of the training of the juniors.

As for your last point: a strict legal interpretation of Protecting All God's Children does indeed lead to the somewhat startling conclusion that if an unaccompanied under 18 walks into a church then anyone in the building without CRB clearance should leave. True, this is not how PAGC is being acted upon, but that is the inescapable conclusion having had the thing examined by a lawyer.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
"The organist is on holiday; therefore there will be no rehearsal on xxxday."

Put in newsletter; job done.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I made that suggestion - told not possible.

In the meantime: have pleaded with old uni chum and they will do service and rehearse adults before service for half-an-hour. Children will be given weekend off, which isn't ideal but...

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think you have an unreasonable PP if he can't imagine a week without a choir rehearsal.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If it is the opinion of the PP that people who give service to God in his church (organists, choir members, cleaners etc) can not take a holiday then he needs to decide why that opinion doesn't hold for everyone in his church - starting by looking at his own diary.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
You are looking for someone to come into church one Sunday and play the hymns chosen by the preacher, possibly allow them in once before that to get some practice on the instrument. Why would it be expected that they'd have any involvement with the children in the choir (or elsewhere in church for that matter)? I understand that your job as organist could include accompanying the choir in practices, maybe more direct involvement in helping the choir get the best out of their talents, which would put you in closer contact with children. That doesn't have to be part of what your deputy does.

It's almost getting to the point where anyone coming into church on a Sunday morning needs to undergo Safeguarding or equivalent procedures just in case they sit within 100 yards of a child.

Anyone who holds an upfront job, visible to children, has to be V& B checked.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
KLB - I'm a salaried organist, not a volunteer; as for the number/timing of rehearsals, in theory its up to me but one has to take into account the upcoming repertory and what is required by way of preparation.

AC - see above.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools