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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Worship & loss of awe across traditions a coincidence?
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Mousethief, I'm not sure I said it was a trend.
I did acknowledge that I was rather taken aback as most Liturgies I've attended - although highly ritualised and formulaic from the perspective of more 'informal' ways of doing things - were conducted in a way that appeared to 'engage' people.
This one was done at a dash as if the celebrant were the only person in the room.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I have a thought:
There is a huge difference between playing marbles and playing marbles when you know you are on a live volcano.
I do not think that playing marbles on a live volcano is per se a bad thing to do. Indeed for many people who live under a live volcano the getting on with the mundane actions of everyday life is precisely the most sensible thing they can do. However, there is something about being conscious of dealing with something that is not predictable.
What worries me is not that we are informal in church rather it is the loss of the sense of God as not being totally governed by our sensibilities. As C.S. Lewis has Narnian's say "He is not a tame lion". I think nor is he a stuffed lion in a museum or a cuddly lion. I think Lyda Rose is therefore is onto something with here with mindfulness.
I perhaps would go onto say that maybe we are loosing awe of God because we have come too comfortable in our own ability and have lost sight of God's "wildness".
Jengie
Sometimes my brain doesn't get nuance, but isn't this just another way of saying "We should be careful because God can get tetchy and then he might squash us?"
Like in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBqe5xvYnNc
A volcano is not tetchy unless you are going to anthropomorphize it; it is something we cannot control or predict. It no more wants to squash us than it wants to give us good soil to grow crops on.
Do mountains hate mountaineers or why are many of them killed on mountains?
Jengie
God and people are personal. Volcanoes are not personal. The comparison should be more with people who might harm you rather than inanimate objects.
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
I mis-read the title of this thread, as Worship and Loos . What came to mind was the sound of a toilet flushing, well withing hearing range of worshipers.
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I'd rather that than the usual church arrangement, i.e. nothing.
Besides, we all know that everyone over the age of 3 needs to use the loo so why the coyness over the sound of a flush?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Maybe 'worship and [audible] loos' = 'worship and loss of awe'. I.e., noisy plumbing may have a detrimental effect upon one's attempts at having an otherworldly spiritual experience....
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Karl
Lets take it the other way. How is your God different from the God of "new" Christians who provides parking places if he can only do what you want him to do, what you classify as nice? A predictable God which is what you seem to want is as much a mechanical God as their vending machine model. Even the Hell Fire God is only another form of this mechanical God. The hell fire God is still responding as predicted, just the predictions are bad. Still that God can be controlled; "just pray the believer prayer and you will be saved from these bad things". It is time you opened up to the Godness of God.
God is not personal, he is meta-personal. Personal only works by analogy, the reality of God is always not what we say it is. That is why we need to understand is cannot control God. Saying the "right" words, doing the "right" deeds or behaving in a specific fashion does not guarantee how God will respond. It is no good trying flattery, or manipulation with God, God not only sees through it but is above it. Therefore, God is very different from any other person. God is not bound by human made institutions. God essentially responds as God responds. That is not the nature of God I am talking about.
If God is such then God is capable of unexpected/unprecedented good as much as anything else. What evidence there is suggests that his mercy extends far beyond that of any person. This good however is a good that is capable of restructuring society, not something that will leave us with the status quo. As the evidence suggests that God is not bound by our concepts of what is proper and what is not proper.
Jengie
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Heh heh heh ...
I've heard that even the Rule of St Benedict makes provision for monks to nip out and answer calls of nature during lengthy services ... although they wouldn't have had flushing loos in those days of course.
It reminds me of Jon Ronson's very critical TV documentary about the Alpha Course a few years back. The 'Holy Spirit' slot at the 'Holy Spirit weekend' on an Alpha course he was following had to be abandoned because there were 4-wheel drive vehicles revving up by the boys-toys weekenders who were sharing the same venue ...
It made Ronson - and the viewers no doubt, myself included - wonder what was going on if God the Holy Spirit could be scared off so easily by a few revved engines.
The reality, of course, was that this section of the Alpha weekend relied on a certain level of expectation and a particular atmosphere in order for it to 'work' properly.
The organisers would have been well advised to read Jengie Jon's latest post ...
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I'm loving the idea that the Holy Spirit could be out-revved!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The organisers would have been well advised to read Jengie Jon's latest post ...
And so would most of us.
Psalm 97 describes God by analogy with a volcano.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I suppose an Ignatian retreat probably requires a particular atmosphere. You wouldn't go to one situated across the road from an abattoir and next to a popular all-night disco! OTOH, by ministering to the clubbing crowd as a Street Pastor you might feel a strong sense of the Holy Spirit being at work.
Some people prefer to commune with God in all sorts of settings that don't involve formal 'worship'. Maybe such worship has become too limiting for most people, especially since we have so many spiritual tools and options at our fingertips and no longer have to rely primarily on what local clergy and congregations can offer.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I would not be so sure. I have twice done a week of Ignatian Retreat in daily life (this takes seven weeks). The first while at University and meant me going to the chaplaincy to meet with the accompanier, the second one at work and that meant the accompanier coming to my office. So technically if your work office was in an abattoir you might just meet there.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... the Rule of St Benedict makes provision for monks to nip out and answer calls of nature during lengthy services ...
RB 8:4, discussing the timings for the Night Office: quote:
... Vigils should be followed immediately by Matins at daybreak, with a very short interval in between, when the brothers can go out for the needs of nature [ad necessaria naturae].
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Why do I see this thread and keep thinking of the story about the filming of whatever Biblical epic it was? -
quote:
Actor (woodenly): Truly this man was the Son of God.
Director: Can you say it with a little awe?
Actor: Awww, truly this man was the Son of God.
Anyhoo ...
I'm generally a fan of the "awe" thing in worship, but with a couple of caveats. First, I don't think it can be manufactured. At best, I think worship can be done in such a way as to be more conducive to an experience of awe. Secondly, one person's awe is another's kitsch. Theatrical stage-trickery is not awe. There is a story that in one CofE church, there was a spotlight aimed at precisely the spot where Father would elevate the Host during the Eucharistic Prayer. While this might give a new angle on "Shine, Jesus, Shine", I'd say it's more kitsch than awe.
That has to be John Wayne in The Greatest Story Ever Told. And I second both your points.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I wonder is it to do with a loss of understanding God in terms of transcendence? The media certainly stereotypes the church as a bit fluffy bunnied and overtly and mawkishly sentimental. It may be a caricature, but might there not also be some truth to that? I can't really remember the time when I last heard a sermon on how coldly terrifying an unconditional love can be to us limited humans; or on God being wholly 'other'. I guess you could argue that it's the product of the age in which we live and it comes, in part at least, from our self congratulatory bollocks at being so wise and clever.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by fletcher christian quote:
I can't really remember the time when I last heard a sermon on how coldly terrifying an unconditional love can be to us limited humans; or on God being wholly 'other'.
While it wasn't the theme, the scary thing about unconditional love was part of the sermon at the last wedding in our church - in fact it is a staple of our PP's wedding words. Always makes the point about the difference between unconditional and uncritical too ...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Karl
Lets take it the other way. How is your God different from the God of "new" Christians who provides parking places if he can only do what you want him to do, what you classify as nice? A predictable God which is what you seem to want is as much a mechanical God as their vending machine model. Even the Hell Fire God is only another form of this mechanical God. The hell fire God is still responding as predicted, just the predictions are bad. Still that God can be controlled; "just pray the believer prayer and you will be saved from these bad things". It is time you opened up to the Godness of God.
God is not personal, he is meta-personal. Personal only works by analogy, the reality of God is always not what we say it is. That is why we need to understand is cannot control God. Saying the "right" words, doing the "right" deeds or behaving in a specific fashion does not guarantee how God will respond. It is no good trying flattery, or manipulation with God, God not only sees through it but is above it. Therefore, God is very different from any other person. God is not bound by human made institutions. God essentially responds as God responds. That is not the nature of God I am talking about.
If God is such then God is capable of unexpected/unprecedented good as much as anything else. What evidence there is suggests that his mercy extends far beyond that of any person. This good however is a good that is capable of restructuring society, not something that will leave us with the status quo. As the evidence suggests that God is not bound by our concepts of what is proper and what is not proper.
Jengie
No, I don't want a "predictable God". But nor do I want a God who's as dangerous to me as a volcano. I'd not live on a volcano, and I wouldn't want to be involved with a God who might do the God equivalent of pouring hot lava over me either.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Edit - I suppose you could say that that means I do want a predictable God - one who can be predicted not to pour hot lava over me. But I can't make myself want that. How can anyone? The problem is that the unpredictable God who may pour hot lava over me seems less good, less merciful, than the one who predictably wouldn't. You can say that's because my concept of Good is limited, but I can't see being covered in hot lava as good, no more than I can force myself to see grass as purple.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I imagine if you [impersonal 'you'] were Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane you wouldn't see the imminent crucifixion as something good. But at the heart of our faith, and not just our faith but the mystery of life, is this ultimate fact: that all our visions and expectations of God will crumble before the reality of God's self. Cosy, prepackaged religion is like fast food for the soul.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Angloid: I imagine if you [impersonal 'you'] were Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane you wouldn't see the imminent crucifixion as something good.
The crucifixion wasn't something good.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
No, but it was reality.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Edit - I suppose you could say that that means I do want a predictable God - one who can be predicted not to pour hot lava over me. But I can't make myself want that. How can anyone? The problem is that the unpredictable God who may pour hot lava over me seems less good, less merciful, than the one who predictably wouldn't. You can say that's because my concept of Good is limited, but I can't see being covered in hot lava as good, no more than I can force myself to see grass as purple.
The only way you can be certain something will not hurt you is if it is totally predictable; the only way you can be sure something will hurt you is if it is totally predictable. Even more so when you are dealing with something powerful.
So what do you want?
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Edit - I suppose you could say that that means I do want a predictable God - one who can be predicted not to pour hot lava over me. But I can't make myself want that. How can anyone? The problem is that the unpredictable God who may pour hot lava over me seems less good, less merciful, than the one who predictably wouldn't. You can say that's because my concept of Good is limited, but I can't see being covered in hot lava as good, no more than I can force myself to see grass as purple.
The only way you can be certain something will not hurt you is if it is totally predictable; the only way you can be sure something will hurt you is if it is totally predictable. Even more so when you are dealing with something powerful.
So what do you want?
Jengie
Not to be covered in red hot lava, of course.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
So you invent a god that will prevent that?
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
You are right of course. I'm not suggesting that God is likely to cover us in red hot lava, only that his/her love and generosity can appear in strange ways. (Just watched Doctor Who and the exploding moon).
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
A thoughtful thread, especially the OP.
I think the loss of awe is no coincidence and that one big factor is modern churchpeople have made themselves the center of worship instead of God.
I experienced this quite literally at the RC Cathedral in Santa Fe, New Mexico once when during an appalling service, a priest addressing the congregation said it was "all about… (I was for a second expecting him to say "God".)… you."
And the dreadful service reflected that in a number of ways.
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The Society of St. Pius *
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
So you invent a god that will prevent that?
No, I hope that whatever God doesn't exist doesn't do that sort of thing.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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