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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Faithfree Guidelines
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Curiosity - this board is, in a way, trying to draw the line between these, and give a space for a more nuanced discussion, from those who have found those type of discussions (on the board and IRL) too difficult.
If it helps, I would pay attention to anyone saying "why do you hang on to a ridiculous faith" type of comments just as much. For many people, including myself, our current position is not "logical" or entirely consistent. It is a position of questioning, working out, on a journey without some of the signposts others use.
Being told we are on the wrong route doesn't help, because it is the journey, not the destination, that really matters.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
quote:
posted by Autenrieth Road
moonlitdoor, can you say more? Are there some types of discussions that you think would seem to allowed on a board that is about the topic of being Faithfree, but not on a board that is for people who are Faithfree?
I could but I'm not sure whether I should in case people agree with Mousethief's characterisation of 'I want to come to YOUR playground, which YOU created in for YOUR own purposes, and do what *I* want to do, and you need to put up with it.'
I don't know whether he intended that to refer to me among others but such an attitude is far from my intention. That is partly why I wanted to clarify whether it is indeed your playground which I am coming to as a visitor, or whether it belongs to all who are interested in the subject. If it is the former, then I would only post on discussions where the opening poster made it clear that they would welcome various views.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I've decided not to post here, as I don't think my comments as a Christian would be welcomed. I would be treading on eggshells, concerned in case someone thought I was not accepting of their atheism, that I was trying to convert them, or that I didn't understand their pov.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
moonlitdoor, I would indeed like to hear your thoughts on this.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
quote:
posted by Autenrieth Road
moonlitdoor, can you say more? <snip>
I could but I'm not sure whether I should in case people agree with Mousethief's characterisation of 'I want to come to YOUR playground, which YOU created in for YOUR own purposes, and do what *I* want to do, and you need to put up with it.'
I don't know whether he intended that to refer to me among others [...]
Not in particular, no.
quote:
[...] but such an attitude is far from my intention. That is partly why I wanted to clarify whether it is indeed your playground which I am coming to as a visitor, or whether it belongs to all who are interested in the subject. If it is the former, then I would only post on discussions where the opening poster made it clear that they would welcome various views.
I agree it would be very helpful to get this clarified. Kelly said (If I read her right) that the H&A are discussing this; hopefully we shall have their answer soon.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I don't fully understand what moonlitdoor is asking for clarification on, which is why I asked moonlitdoor to explain more.
Mousethief, did this not answer your questions:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedindger's Cat:
Faithfree is for exploring the consequences of leaving the faith you once had. For some people, this is their own exploration and they may have questions, wish to share stories, ask about others' experiences, etc. For other people, this may not be your own exploration but you are wondering about how it works for other people. Or you may be in a borderland and trying to explore all sides. Or heading back to your original faith. Questions are welcomed. Exploring the differences between people's experience is OK. Telling people that they are wrong about their own experience is not OK, and we may request that if a discussion turns in that direction that you either change the approach or move the discussion to Purgatory.
So for those who have said you have questions, try them out and let's see how it works.
That was, among other things, trying to say that this is not a board that's only for faithfree people to post on, which I thought was the question some people were asking. What had that left unanswered for you about posting in Faithfree? What are some things you are unsure whether you can post or not?
It was also meant to encourage people to try posting so we could see how things work in practice, and go from there. But so far it seems as if some people are still unsure if they can post, so it doesn't seem to have worked.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
quote:
posted by Autenrieth Road
moonlitdoor, can you say more? <snip>
I could but I'm not sure whether I should in case people agree with Mousethief's characterisation of 'I want to come to YOUR playground, which YOU created in for YOUR own purposes, and do what *I* want to do, and you need to put up with it.'
I don't know whether he intended that to refer to me among others [...]
Not in particular, no.
quote:
[...] but such an attitude is far from my intention. That is partly why I wanted to clarify whether it is indeed your playground which I am coming to as a visitor, or whether it belongs to all who are interested in the subject. If it is the former, then I would only post on discussions where the opening poster made it clear that they would welcome various views.
I agree it would be very helpful to get this clarified. Kelly said (If I read her right) that the H&A are discussing this; hopefully we shall have their answer soon.
No, I gave my opinion with " admin hat off". I said nothing about what the Admins were discussing.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
The Hosts (Schroedinger's Cat and me) are discussing it. This is an ongoing process, because we've tried to clarify matters but clearly, from recent posts, there are still questions. Right now I'm waiting for more clarifications from moonlitdoor and mousethief so I can try to understand their questions or reservations better, and give SC and me a better chance of responding in a useful way.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
moonlitdoor and mousethief - if you would rather communicate with one of us in a PM, please do - it doesn't have to be public. It is just so we can understand better, and progress this.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
If I may ask a more concrete question: my immediate reaction to Potoroo's OP was to want to point out that I see no difficulty in freely supporting gay rights while being Christian. And in fact I disagree almost completely with the image of Christians as given in that post. Would that be regarded as legitimate discussion for this board or proselytising?
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
If I may ask a more concrete question: my immediate reaction to Potoroo's OP was to want to point out that I see no difficulty in freely supporting gay rights while being Christian. And in fact I disagree almost completely with the image of Christians as given in that post. Would that be regarded as legitimate discussion for this board or proselytising?
I supported Potoroo's post. That was our common experience. It never occured to me that Potoroo was identifying that as a Christian identity as such, just that some churches / Christians behave in that way, as we both seem to have found. I know that there are some Christians who believe and behave differently to those we are talking about and I am glad about that.
There is little point in challenging the post. But I agree with you that being gay is 'legitimate' as a Christian / Biblical lifestyle. Your experience of Christians is obviously different to mine - that's fine, I am glad about that.
As to discussion of the topic - I'll leave that to the hosts.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
Thank you Mark. I accept that my experience has possibly made me over sensitive to other people telling me what I, as a Christian, believe and that I therefore read more into Potoroo's post than was there. Mea Culpa and apologies to Potoroo.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Potoroo
Shipmate
# 13466
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
Thank you Mark. I accept that my experience has possibly made me over sensitive to other people telling me what I, as a Christian, believe and that I therefore read more into Potoroo's post than was there. Mea Culpa and apologies to Potoroo.
Thank you, JoannaP. In no way was I telling anyone what to believe! I was just describing my own experience of Christianity.
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
Posts: 2778 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Just a general reminder that this is a board where some people may want to express feelings that are part of their journey. There is no requirement here to defend how you feel or why you feel something.
At heart, this is because we want to acknowledge that you may not have those answers at this point. This is not to say don't question, more that a response of "yeah - so what?" is perfectly justified - however it is expressed.
Thank you.
Schroedingers Cat
Faithfree host.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Potoroo
Shipmate
# 13466
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Posted
I will preface this by saying that I am not an intellectual, but operate more on emotions.
I am a bit concerned that some people seem to be questioning our experiences as valid, or offering us unasked advice about being a Christian (according to their various opinions on what a Christian should be).
Of course, our experiences may not be valid to them – but they are valid to us. So much so that we took an important decision to leave.
Being challenged and argued with leaves me feeling a bit battered. I recall MT's post on page one of the “Faithfree Guidelines” thread (sorry, can't do that pinpointing thing) about starting up an Orthodox and Catholic board called Stella Maris, just so they could discuss the issues they wanted to without being challenged all the time.
All I know is that I was a very committed Christian and followed God with all my might, as I knew it.
I am not questioning the experiences and beliefs of Christians. Those experiences and decisions are valid and important to them.
I appreciate the space to talk about faithfree issues. I am not enjoying being challenged, but I recognise that it is a public Ship board and believing Christians who are still attending church want to have their say. It is just that sometimes I feel they are taking over.
On the other hand, arguments are what makes the board interesting for others, I suppose. I am glad I am not the one who has to arbitrate this. However, I did just want to (rather nervously) put in my two cents.
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
Posts: 2778 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Potoroo:
I appreciate the space to talk about faithfree issues. I am not enjoying being challenged, but I recognise that it is a public Ship board and believing Christians who are still attending church want to have their say. It is just that sometimes I feel they are taking over.
On the other hand, arguments are what makes the board interesting for others, I suppose. I am glad I am not the one who has to arbitrate this. However, I did just want to (rather nervously) put in my two cents.
First off, I think our guest hosts are doing an impressive job of arbitrating this.
Second, to look at the big picture, the 8th Day project really depends on us giving our guest hosts ownership of their board, and that means, allowing them to evolve their own ethos that serves the purpose of their board. We kind of stepped over AR's excellent post a page back, in which she pointed out that a board - specific ethos isn't really a new thing on the Ship. (Keryg, DH, AS...)
The complication of an 8th Day board is that tthat ethos is evolving while discussion is happening, so having a thread like this to discuss what works and what doesn't is crucial. But after that, we have to give them the reins.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Potoroo
Shipmate
# 13466
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
But after that, we have to give them the reins.
Of course! And I admire them greatly for having to sort all this out - I couldn't do it.
After I posted the above, I asked myself: would I want a quiet board, or a vibrant board with lots of discussion? And the answer was of course, a vibrant board.
That doesn't mean I like being challenged or advised on my past experiences - how I should have done things better at the time. But yes, apart from that, I do value the different points of view here.
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
Posts: 2778 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Sorry, that wasn't really directed at what you said, it's that what you said provoked my thinking.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
Activity on these boards seems to be dying out.
Is anyone measuring how many of the "faithfree" are now bothering to post on these boards compared to professed Christians who seem to be increasingly taking them over to promote their own beliefs?
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Faithfree is a place to discuss the implications of having lost or rejected your faith, be that in a representation of the divine, or an expression of faith community.
You could do a poll - but you might want to include the people in last clause too.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Faithfree is a place to discuss the implications of having lost or rejected your faith, be that in a representation of the divine, or an expression of faith community.
You could do a poll - but you might want to include the people in last clause too.
You mean those who have lost faith in an expression of a faith community? I think you will find that even they are outnumbered by those who are determined to find them a suitable faith community.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Such as ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Activity on these boards seems to be dying out.
Not massively. OK, it comes and goes, which is natural. We are monitoring the level of activity and type of posting too.
One reason the boards run for three months and not just one is to see whether they do sustain activity over that period, and whether they stay focussed.
Schroedingers Cat
Faithfree Host
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
It seems to me that the story-telling has diminished and the intellectual arguing has increased. Just my observation and it is reflected in my diminishing interest.
I have felt a little pressure to consider returning to the fold - but it could be paranoia.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
It seems to me that the story-telling has diminished and the intellectual arguing has increased. Just my observation and it is reflected in my diminishing interest.
I have felt a little pressure to consider returning to the fold - but it could be paranoia.
The style has changed, and will vary over time, I suppose. More stories are always good. Mark, you may have felt more pressure by the fact that you have engaged more with some of the discussions than others - I think it is more that there has been some "robust" discussions, which is fine, as long as there is nothing untoward in this.
I do think "the board is not as good as it used to be" might be a little premature for a board that is 5 weeks old.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
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